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The Hoax of Global Warming

Since I could not get a direct response from you Bryan in the "Glenn Beck.. warns of one world government" thread and your thoughts on that, maybe this little bit of info and video will be able to get a rise out of you guys about how this "One World Government" and the "Global Climate Scam" all ties together...;)

On October 14th 2009, Lord Christopher Monckton...


He's just a Glenn Beck with a little more class, a title and an accent. Glenn Beck/Lord Christopher Monckton - Two reactionary, ultra - conservative nutbags. Oh, gee, I guess Glenn Beck does have a title, after all. "Nutbag"'s a title. My bad.

So when Obama signs the treaty whose slaves do we become, will I have to take a Berlitz language course and where do I go to have my leg-irons fitted?
 
He's just a Glenn Beck with a little more class, a title and an accent. Glenn Beck/Lord Christopher Monckton - Two reactionary, ultra - conservative nutbags. Oh, gee, I guess Glenn Beck does have a title, after all. "Nutbag"'s a title. My bad.

So when Obama signs the treaty whose slaves do we become, will I have to take a Berlitz language course and where do I go to have my leg-irons fitted?

Most likely, the U.N.'s...;)
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Changes in greenhouse gas concentrations: The heating or cooling of the Earth's surface can cause changes in greenhouse gas concentrations. For example, when global temperatures become warmer, carbon dioxide is released from the oceans. When changes in the Earth's orbit trigger a warm (or interglacial) period, increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide may amplify the warming by enhancing the greenhouse effect. When temperatures become cooler, CO2 enters the ocean and contributes to additional cooling. During at least the last 650,000 years, CO2 levels have tended to track the glacial cycles (IPCC, 2007). That is, during warm interglacial periods, CO2 levels have been high and during cool glacial periods, CO2 levels have been low.
We are currently in an interglacial period, as the last glacial period ended about 10,000 years ago.

The Carboniferous Period and the Ordovician Period were the only geological periods during the Paleozoic Era when global temperatures were as low as they are today. To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today-- 4400 ppm. According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming.

You decide, but I contend that decreasing use of fossil fuels will have little effect on decreasing the earths temperature over the next 1000+years, if ever.
During the Late Ordovician period, the Co2 levels were higher than they are now, but then so was Oxygen, Helium and Sulfur levels. Oxygen levels during the Ordovician were ~163% of what the Oxygen level is now and Ozone levels were reduced to about 20% of what it is today. The increased levels of O2 along with the increased Co2 levels and decreased Ozone during that time make comparisons todays climate event not really possible. During the Ordovician period the entire atmosphere of the Earth was completely different mixture of gases than it is now. We humans could not even breath the air of the Ordovician period and surive, so you really can't compare the two time periods weather objectively.

...I contend that decreasing use of fossil fuels will have little effect on decreasing the earths temperature over the next 1000+years, if ever.
I think your right about that.

@ Skinny. Look I'm sorry, I didn't want you to think this was a 'pissing' contest. But you have to admit that trying to discuss This climate event with someone that is unaware or just plain dismissive of the major engines that drive our Atmosphere and Climate, like the great heat pump in the Seas or the effect Volcanoes have had on our climate is rather difficult without sounding 'pissy'.

You keep focusing on the issue of how much Co2 humans create... This has been answered... ~26 Gigatones a year. a Gigaton = one BILLION metric tons.
Source:
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The entire volume of our Atmosphere is ~51,006,560,000,000 cubic meters (m^3)
source:
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Current tests show that we currently have ~380 ppm of Co2 in the atmosphere.

So the amount of Co2 produced and the percentage of that Co2 produced by humans in the atmosphere can be figured out if you have mind to do it.

But again, I contend it really don't matter where the Co2 is coming from. It is here, we can't make it go away and it IS changing our weather.

IMO it is a waste of time to focus on who done it or didn't do it, I think we should be focusing on what to do about it.
 
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But again, I contend it really don't matter where the Co2 is coming from. It is here, we can't make it go away and it IS changing our weather.

IMO it is a waste of time to focus on who done it or didn't do it, I think we should be focusing on what to do about it.

If CO2 affects climate change, it is very important where it comes from because it is shaping our future laws (via the treaty to be negotiated in Copenhagen).

Of course global climate change is real but environmentalists are manipulating data and lying about its causes for self-serving purposes. This is the 'hoax' (or 'fraud' according to the article below) that motivated me to start this thread.

THE scientific consensus that mankind has caused climate change was rocked yesterday as a leading academic called it a load of hot air underpinned by fraud.

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Before Man.

Changes in energy input (sun's output, Earth's orbit, etc) was the main driving force behind changes in climate. An increase in energy input will occur if the sun's output increases, and/or the Earth's orbit takes it closer to the Sun.
The increase in energy input increased the temperature, this in turn warmed the oceans, which released their CO2.

In this case, temperature rise will precede the rise in CO2, evidence the detractors to the theory that CO2 increase is what causes temperature rise use to discredit "Climate Change through man's emission of greenhouse gasses"

In the above case, the increase in CO2 acts as positive feedback, enhancing the increase in temperature, even though graphs may still show temperature rise before CO2 rise, masking the effects of this feedback mechanism.

Eventually, the amount of energy input starts to reduce, the Earth's orbit returns to a "Glacial" position, and/or the sun's output decreases. A point is reached where, despite the CO2 concentration, the Earth does not receive enough energy to continue heating up. Temperatures fall, and this is followed by a fall in CO2 as it is more efficiently absorbed into cooler oceans. Again, this looks "back to front" from what we might expect under the "Global Warming" theory.

Man gets involved:-

It is not so much that man made CO2 DIRECTLY creates "Global Warming", it interferes with the feedback mechanism. Increased CO2 is supposed to FOLLOW an increase in temperature, but by burning fossil fuels, man is enhancing this feedback mechanism, and so NOW we have CO2 rising BEFORE the temperature rises. Now, the orbit and sun's output are NOT driving the changes, it is the CO2 increase that is no longer a feedback response to rising energy input, but an acting force in it's own right.

If we ARE entering a period where the energy input increases due to changes in the orbit or the sun's output - oh Crap! This is what we have to fear, because the warming will be very much ENHANCED by the human intervention, even if not CAUSED by it. The eventual upward swing could easily surpass anything that would have occurred naturally.

We could get lucky though, maybe other factors are pushing the Earth into a cooling phase, and the 1970's doom-mongers were correct. Our production of CO2 has held off the cooling effect somewhat, and we have ended up with a net warming, which many scientists have thought to be too LITTLE given what they had expected from their calculations.

An effect revealed fairly recently was that our burning of fossil fuels created lots of POLLUTION, which acted as a "solar filter", negating some of the effects of increasing CO2. The various "clean air" initiatives removed much of this filtering effect, but none of the CO2 production. This could have confused scientists who were expecting a steady warming since we started pumping out CO2.

Apart from CO2, we have the worry of "tipping points" being reached, where the system varies so far from it's natural range that recovery becomes almost impossible.
One such event in the past was known as "Snowball Earth", an extreme glacial period that could not be ended by the Earth moving into it's interglacial orbit. The ending was believed to have come from very enhanced volcanism, melting some of the ice, depositing dark material on the rest (making it easier to melt), and pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, which lasted longer than the cooling pollutants.
These extremes in the past are also thought to result from changes in the position of the land masses.

The current worry is that the oceans can get so warm that Methane, trapped as solid at high pressure and near zero Celsius at the ocean floor, could be released, and become a greenhouse gas, causing a far greater runaway effect than could be achieved by CO2 alone. Melting permafrost is a worry, since it would enable this "tipping point" to be reached.

"Global Warming" however, is still THEORY, in that we will suffer a steady long term warming and "disaster" by 2100 if we do nothing. Other unforeseen events may eliminate the warming, and may even be extreme enough to reverse the trend. This might occur BECAUSE the system has been "forced" so violently, it will oscillate wildly, and one of these oscillations could be what triggers the dramatic reversal.

Recent winters in the Northern hemisphere are said to have INCREASED the size of some glaciers, due to large amounts of snowfall. This could be because much of the Earth has warmed in the past, and more moisture can be carried and deposited as snow. If there is a widespread and large enhancement of snowfall over a number of winters (doesn't have to be that many), it could tip the balance, creating more surface ice, more reflection of incoming solar energy, enough perhaps to overcome the effects of the levels of greenhouse gasses.

Politicians have muddied the waters somewhat. They need something to tax, and to make the population accepting of a new tax, it needs to be on something "bad for you". Hence, we have high taxes on Tobacco, Alcohol, and in some cases, fuel for cars. "Global Warming" is an excuse to tax something ELSE that is "bad for us", so their motives are questioned. Is it REALLY that bad, or are they just looking for something to tax.

There are some SERIOUS cases of "double standards" too, on the one hand we are told CO2 emissions will have to decrease by "impossible" levels if we are to survive, yet the same government is prepared to bulldoze a village and a few grade 1 listed buildings to INCREASE capacity at Heathrow airport, which will only encourage more of us to fly. Oddly enough, when MOTORISTS ask about road schemes, they are told "won't work, as soon as we widen the road, it will encourage more cars onto it, and we will be back where we started". Surely the same will happen at Heathrow, MORE people will fly, filling up the capacity, and Heathrow will be overcrowded yet again. Well, it has happened before at Heathrow, increased capacity is followed by more people flying, and capacity has to be increased again and again.
In terms of CO2 emissions, flying is the WORST possible choice, even though it takes the least time, and is therefore the most convenient option for the economy.
 
Politicians have muddied the waters somewhat. They need something to tax, and to make the population accepting of a new tax, it needs to be on something "bad for you". Hence, we have high taxes on Tobacco, Alcohol, and in some cases, fuel for cars. "Global Warming" is an excuse to tax something ELSE that is "bad for us", so their motives are questioned. Is it REALLY that bad, or are they just looking for something to tax.

Of course global climate change is real but environmentalists are manipulating data and lying about its causes for self-serving purposes. This is the 'hoax' (or 'fraud' according to the article below) that motivated me to start this thread.

Now we're starting to see some commonality in this thread (thank gawd!)
We seem to all agree that the lust for money plays a big part within the global warming community. IMO, the alarmists have been exaggerating the data to increase the fear factor in an attempt to get regulation passed more quickly. In fairness they probably believe the end justifies the means. But their plan has all but backfired mainly due to the newly exposed 'private' emails showing collusion among them.
 
Now we're starting to see some commonality in this thread (thank gawd!)
We seem to all agree that the lust for money plays a big part within the global warming community. IMO, the alarmists have been exaggerating the data to increase the fear factor in an attempt to get regulation passed more quickly. In fairness they probably believe the end justifies the means. But their plan has all but backfired mainly due to the newly exposed 'private' emails showing collusion among them.

So, like, when, do you suppose, that all these silly, silly, scientists, from all over the world, who colluded to perpetrate this silly, silly, silly, Global-Climate-Change-Being-Caused-by-Manmade-Greenhouse-Gasses-hoax, from Scientific Organizations such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), The U.S. Global Change Research Program, American Geophysical Union (AGU), The American Association for the Advancement of Science, The US National Academy of Sciences, The American Institute of Physics, The American Meteorological Society, , The Network of African Science Academies, The International Union for Quaternary Research, The Australian Coral Reef Society, The Arctic Council, The International Arctic Science Committee, the European Academy of Sciences and Arts, The InterAcademy Council (IAC), The International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences (CAETS) and The National Science Academies of Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Cameroon, Canada, the Caribbean, China, France, Ghana, Germany, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, India, Japan, Kenya, Madagascar, Malaysia, Mexico, Nigeria, New Zealand, Russia, Senegal, South Africa, Sudan, Sweden, Tanzania, Uganda, United Kingdom, United States, Zambia, and Zimbabwe, and The United Nations' World Health Organization, to name just a few, were gonna let all of us know that we've been punked? :lolup: If I were to wager in a pool, I'd bet April Fools Day! You ?
 
@ Skinny. Look I'm sorry, I didn't want you to think this was a 'pissing' contest. But you have to admit that trying to discuss This climate event with someone that is unaware or just plain dismissive of the major engines that drive our Atmosphere and Climate, like the great heat pump in the Seas or the effect Volcanoes have had on our climate is rather difficult without sounding 'pissy'.

You keep focusing on the issue of how much Co2 humans create... This has been answered... ~26 Gigatones a year. a Gigaton = one BILLION metric tons.

Actually I keep focusing on the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere that is man made. Not the estimated total quantity on it's own. The reason I keep focusing on that is because some people seem to want us to believe that cutting our emissions by 5 or 6 ppm is going to fix the climate. Of course nobody is actually going to cut anything. We're just going to get charged for everything we use or produce. The Canadian Liberal party already sat on a platform of a new carbon tax in the last election. Thankfully they didn't get elected because best case scenerio is I would have got charged a new tax on everything that produces CO2 either in the production or the usage. Worst case they'd have hooked a bloody ventilator up to me and charged me for exhaling. I don't care what anyone believes. Charging me an extra buck a litre for gasoline isn't going to make the weather better.
 
...Of course nobody is actually going to cut anything. We're just going to get charged for everything we use or produce...

Man if I was Canadian I'd leave my snowmobile idling 24/7 just to make the polar ice cap melt faster! Aren't you tired of always havin to look over your shoulder alla time, worrying about gettin et by polar bears? That'd get on my very last nerve!
 
Man if I was Canadian I'd leave my snowmobile idling 24/7 just to make the polar ice cap melt faster! Aren't you tired of always havin to look over your shoulder alla time, worrying about gettin et by polar bears? That'd get on my very last nerve!

Just throw them a Coke and run.

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Actually I keep focusing on the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere that is man made. Not the estimated total quantity on it's own. The reason I keep focusing on that is because some people seem to want us to believe that cutting our emissions by 5 or 6 ppm is going to fix the climate. Of course nobody is actually going to cut anything. We're just going to get charged for everything we use or produce. The Canadian Liberal party already sat on a platform of a new carbon tax in the last election. Thankfully they didn't get elected because best case scenerio is I would have got charged a new tax on everything that produces CO2 either in the production or the usage. Worst case they'd have hooked a bloody ventilator up to me and charged me for exhaling. I don't care what anyone believes. Charging me an extra buck a litre for gasoline isn't going to make the weather better.

This is the "fudge factor". Rather than commit to drastic cuts, complicated mechanisms for "carbon trading", "carbon offset", "carbon taxing" have been introduced.
"carbon trading" cuts nothing, it is merely a mechanism that moves emissions from one source to another, generating money in the process.
"carbon offset" cuts nothing, it is a way of salving the conscience after going on a "carbon binge", such as flying long distance.
"carbon taxes" cut nothing, but they shift CO2 production from poor people to richer people. "carbon taxes" simply take money that would otherwise go towards "carbon offset" voluntary payments. People will no longer see the moral need to donate to "carbon offset" once a formal tax regime has been introduced. This change could HARM the environment, since "carbon offset" payments tend to go towards projects such as tree planting, saving forests, etc. The replacement "carbon taxes" will simply enter government coffers, and will NOT be ringfenced for use in beneficial projects.

Developing countries are also arguing the basis of "our turn" because the developed world enjoyed the carbon party, but by the time the developing world arrived, the party was all but over. Such an agreement will again only shift production from the developed world to the developing world, and will do NOTHING to solve the problem of an overall increase in the CO2 content of the atmosphere.

Even without any of this, the fossil fuels are running out, and another crisis was always due to hit later this century, when we would be FORCED to cut CO2 emissions simply because there was nothing left to burn!

Even if you believe "Global Warming" to be a hoax, you STILL have to accept the need to stop burning the fossil fuels at the current rate, and look for short cycle renewable energy sources
(oil & coal are renewable sources, but the renewal cycle is MILLIONS of years)

Politicians need to accept that reducing CO2 emissions is incompatible with continuing economic growth whilst much of our energy is derived from fossil fuels. They can't do this, since all their economic planning works ONLY when they can generate long term growth. We have just seen what happens when this growth is interrupted, politicians realise that they won't have the money to pay for their long term commitments, and this will cost them votes, so they have to "fudge the issue".

I think that it will be the lack of availability of oil, gas, & coal that eventually sees us significantly reduce CO2 emissions. Before this, it will be about dealing with the consequences, and the rich will be better equipped for this than the poor.
 
If CO2 affects climate change, it is very important where it comes from because it is shaping our future laws (via the treaty to be negotiated in Copenhagen).

Of course global climate change is real but environmentalists are manipulating data and lying about its causes for self-serving purposes. This is the 'hoax' (or 'fraud' according to the article below) that motivated me to start this thread.

THE scientific consensus that mankind has caused climate change was rocked yesterday as a leading academic called it a load of hot air underpinned by fraud.

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bryand.. The article is nothing more than a POLITICAL attempt to muddy the waters of this issue.

The emails provided by some un-named hackers to all the radical right wing talking heads have yet to be proven as genuine as far as I know. There is currently an independent review going on to see if the emails are in fact genuine. I'll wait to get pissed off till after I see what the independent review finds.

One thing for sure these hacked emails are sure being used politically... Even if they have absolutely no relevance what so ever to the actual issue of our weather changing.
 
Just throw them a Coke and run.

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OK, but how would just throwing them a can of Coke and running solve the problem? Isn't the quantity of CO2 released into the atmosphere from a punctured can of Coke, even after being vigorously shaken by the Polar Bear, grossly insufficient in terms of making a meaningful contribution to the timely demise of the Polar Bear's habitat so that even one Canadian, living today, might be spared even one, single, can of Coke during their lifetime? And what about the can? Can Polar Bears be trusted to recycle? You're not making any sense.

And what about the issue of Canada's burgeoning dependency on the United States for it's defense? Why does it have to be a can of Coke?? What's wrong with Canada Dry Ginger Ale??? I'll bet that never even occurred to you, or to any Canadian, did it? And why should it? You Canadians have been living, worry free, happy-go lucky, (other than being et by Polar Bears but who told you to go live where it snows in the first place?) la-la-la-la-la-la-la, let's play some hockey or whatever, while we Americans... Oh, sorry. This might be a just a tad off track. I'll start another thread.
 
OK, but how would just throwing them a can of Coke and running solve the problem? Isn't the quantity of CO2 released into the atmosphere from a punctured can of Coke, even after being vigorously shaken by the Polar Bear, grossly insufficient in terms of making a meaningful contribution to the timely demise of the Polar Bear's habitat so that even one Canadian, living today, might be spared even one, single, can of Coke during their lifetime? And what about the can? Can Polar Bears be trusted to recycle? You're not making any sense.

And what about the issue of Canada's burgeoning dependency on the United States for it's defense? Why does it have to be a can of Coke?? What's wrong with Canada Dry Ginger Ale??? I'll bet that never even occurred to you, or to any Canadian, did it? And why should it? You Canadians have been living, worry free, happy-go lucky, (other than being et by Polar Bears but who told you to go live where it snows in the first place?) la-la-la-la-la-la-la, let's play some hockey or whatever, while we Americans... Oh, sorry. This might be a just a tad off track. I'll start another thread.

Are you insane? You don't throw Canada Dry. You save it for special occasions. Canada Dry is not to be used as a weapon. It's Gingervating! Why do you think we got polar bears addicted to Coke in the first place?

234526296_43c7acc821.jpg


Also, it is true that we depend on the United States for defense but it's kind of indirectly. You see, we all had a meeting many many years ago and decided that as long as everyone likes you guys less, we're pretty much safe.

We just wear red and white toques and t-shirts that say "Good day, eh?" and everyone pretty much leaves us alone.
 
Are you insane? You don't throw Canada Dry. You save it for special occasions. Canada Dry is not to be used as a weapon. It's Gingervating! Why do you think we got polar bears addicted to Coke in the first place?

234526296_43c7acc821.jpg


Also, it is true that we depend on the United States for defense but it's kind of indirectly. You see, we all had a meeting many many years ago and decided that as long as everyone likes you guys less, we're pretty much safe.

We just wear red and white toques and t-shirts that say "Good day, eh?" and everyone pretty much leaves us alone.

"Toques", eh? LOL! (goodun!) In CA we don't wear toques(sic), we inhale 'em, for medical purposes, naturally. And there's more of us to dislike! Not fair!

OK, skiny, unless you want the last word, I say we exit, stage right n leave this thread alone to those who wanna make serious, on-topic posts. Only a suggestion, I ain't tryin' a run your program.
 
"Toques", eh? LOL! (goodun!) In CA we don't wear toques(sic), we inhale 'em, for medical purposes, naturally. And there's more of us to dislike! Not fair!

OK, skiny, unless you want the last word, I say we exit, stage right n leave this thread alone to those who wanna make serious, on-topic posts. Only a suggestion, I ain't tryin' a run your program.

I was one of the ones making serious posts! Now I forget what we were talking about.
 
So, like, when, do you suppose, that all these silly, silly, scientists, from all over the world, who colluded to perpetrate this silly, silly, silly, Global-Climate-Change-Being-Caused-by-Manmade-Greenhouse-Gasses-hoax, from Scientific Organizations such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), The U.S. Global Change Research Program, American Geophysical Union (AGU), The American Association for the Advancement of Science, The US National Academy of Sciences, The American Institute of Physics, The American Meteorological Society, , The Network of African Science Academies, The International Union for Quaternary Research, The Australian Coral Reef Society, The Arctic Council, The International Arctic Science Committee, the European Academy of Sciences and Arts, The InterAcademy Council (IAC), The International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences (CAETS) and The National Science Academies of Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Cameroon, Canada, the Caribbean, China, France, Ghana, Germany, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, India, Japan, Kenya, Madagascar, Malaysia, Mexico, Nigeria, New Zealand, Russia, Senegal, South Africa, Sudan, Sweden, Tanzania, Uganda, United Kingdom, United States, Zambia, and Zimbabwe, and The United Nations' World Health Organization, to name just a few, were gonna let all of us know that we've been punked? :lolup: If I were to wager in a pool, I'd bet April Fools Day! You ?

Not punked but rather misled to facilitate the passing of regulations that are self-serving for the environmentalists rather than the world as a whole. The truth is finally coming out albeit slowly.
 
Not punked but rather misled to facilitate the passing of regulations that are self-serving for the environmentalists rather than the world as a whole. The truth is finally coming out albeit slowly.
Exactly how is trying to save the planet and improve the quality of everyones life... self-serving?

Can you please explain that to me.

Oh wait.. I get it now. Those dirty rotten self-serving environmentalists are being 'self-serving' because they want to try to stop us from destroying our home and they want all of us to breath clean air and drink clean water and eat food that is not crammed full of unknown chemicals... Oh god damnit... We should hang those dirty tree hugging bastards from the tallest tree left standing...
 
Not punked but rather misled to facilitate the passing of regulations that are self-serving for the environmentalists rather than the world as a whole. The truth is finally coming out albeit slowly.

I'm not contradicting you. I think the whole global climate change dealio would be much more amusing should you prove to be right, actually.

And, since all these scientists are probably pretty clever, being scientists, physicists, gynecologists, whatever, maybe they did find a way to collectively conspire to sell this to the rest of us. After they all unanimously agreed on the premise. And how to present it. And how to conceal it. And how to fudge the data. And what day it is......it could happen!

And I as I am so easily bored, the more hubbub the better.
 
Some of you liberals have really missed your calling. I mean comedy really suits you. I can only dream of ever having such wit.

I think the problem has evolved rather than being a conspiracy from the beginning. Again, remember back to the 1970's when the alarmists predicted we were heading into the next ice age. Although temperatures were temporarily falling, the movement simply died a quiet death.

The global warming movement is different. First, some scientists noticed average temperatures rising. Ok, great. But then Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth won awards and he won the Nobel Prize by exaggerating the facts. The movement had reached the point of no return. As experts debunked points made by Gore in the movie, the propaganda just increased. Now we know that scientists have been conspiring for some time to hide certain data and mislead the public.
 
I'm not contradicting you. I think the whole global climate change dealio would be much more amusing should you prove to be right, actually.

And, since all these scientists are probably pretty clever, being scientists, physicists, gynecologists, whatever, maybe they did find a way to collectively conspire to sell this to the rest of us. After they all unanimously agreed on the premise. And how to present it. And how to conceal it. And how to fudge the data. And what day it is......it could happen!

And I as I am so easily bored, the more hubbub the better.

Actually there are probably as many scientists who don't agree with what they're selling. Of course they don't work for the IPCC or environmental groups or a government. And if they do they won't for long.

But here's the thing. In the early days of the whole man made global warming hubbub most people just mumbled they don't really believe it or quietly dismissed it. But it's been snowballing ever since.

Scientists have found an endless amount of work and funding as long as they study the effects of man made Co2 or the climate itself. I'm sure someone right now is drafting a proposition to fund a study on the atmospheric effects of polar bear burps after they have a coke and a smile.

Pretty much every developed country's government has realized that as long as producing Co2 is a sin they can charge some sort of tax on pretty much anything they please. Leave it alone long enough and we'll be getting charged for how many dead leaves are decaying on our front lawns.

And environmental groups all get something to bitch about. "What? The atmosphere is being polluted with Co2? What a drag man! Get my guitar and a bag of weed. We're going to have a sit in!"

And now all those people that just shook their heads a decade or three ago are looking around going "Ok, this is getting out of hand." But it's too late. Everything bad said about man made Co2 and the catastrophic effects it's having on the climate is gospel now. If you question it you're a conspiracy theorist. If you deny it you're a heretic.
 
And now all those people that just shook their heads a decade or three ago are looking around going "Ok, this is getting out of hand." But it's too late. Everything bad said about man made Co2 and the catastrophic effects it's having on the climate is gospel now. If you question it you're a conspiracy theorist. If you deny it you're a heretic.

So I guess the animals are conspiring against us by changing their migration patterns in efforts to fool us into thinking the climate is changing... Those dirty money grubbing scientists and low down tree huggers must have talked them into it...

skinny or Bryland one of you is going to hafta help me, I can't figure out how the scientists are getting the perma-frost to melt and those Glaciers/polar ice caps to disappear just to fool us into thinking our climate is changing. Can you fill me in?
 
So I guess the animals are conspiring against us by changing their migration patterns in efforts to fool us into thinking the climate is changing... Those dirty money grubbing scientists and low down tree huggers must have talked them into it...

skinny or Bryland one of you is going to hafta help me, I can't figure out how the scientists are getting the perma-frost to melt and those Glaciers/polar ice caps to disappear just to fool us into thinking our climate is changing. Can you fill me in?

Lots0, you're going to have to help me. I can't figure out how you can't grasp the fact that nobody is saying the climate isn't changing. Everyone knows the climate changes. When the climate changes animals migrate, people migrate, ice melts, ice freezes. The glaciers have been melting for hundreds of years. Before that they were forming. The planet gets hotter, the planet gets colder. Shit happens.

The question here is whether or not it's our fault. And how much of it is our fault? Is is the result of added Co2? Are there other factors involved that certain groups would rather keep out of the equation?
 
Originally posted by bryand:
Some of you liberals have really missed your calling. I mean comedy really suits you. I can only dream of ever having such wit.

Maybe why HBO shelved their plans for the 1st Annual HBO Cavalcade of Conservative Comedians Special. They were gonna go ahead with it but Stephen Colbert didn't wanna have to fill the whole 90 minutes himself once he learned that he would, basically be the only comedian on the bill. The possibility of being type-cast, going forward, as a one-man "cavalcade" and having to do double duty by acting as (his own) Master of Ceremonies were added concerns Mr. Colbert cited for his postponing his formally agreeing to do the show and, well, then HBO found out he wasn't even a conservative and only parodies one on his show so that was pretty much the end of that.
 
I know, triple posts! Ooooooooooooh. But, I actually have a point. Seriously. One time and I'm done: Those who say that the crisis of a Global Climate Change is B.S. fueled by the greed of scientists, worldwide, who have all jumped on the evolving consensus bandwagon to perpetually finance their research for a solution in perpetuity, might be right. Hell, I don't know! And if you're right well then shame on the rest of us for blowing you off and handing over our hard-earned money, (and yours!) especially these days when its hard enough just to finance our gambling habits! Oh yeah, and coming up with the scratch to put food on the table and mortgage payments and kid's college funds and blah blah blah.

But if you're wrong and we don't handle it before the proverbial "tipping point", then most of us posting here are probably going to wish we very well had. But the people I can't help worrying about (I know, exactly what makes me a bleeding heart liberal and makes conservatives just wanna puke) are the hundreds of millions of poor bastards in developing nations around the world that are gonna be just plain, totally f****d! And that's why I'm taking a chance on the scientists and if you right-wing-nay-sayers are unsuccessful in quashing the whole dealio, then too bad! Right or wrong, you're gonna hafta just suck it up and kick down like the rest of us even if you don't give a rat's ass whether or not a few billion people who cant afford property on higher ground can swim or not!
 
Ok, lets say for fun that everything the IPCC has said is true. Then the question becomes how to fix it. We're talking about the climate not heavy traffic on the 401. Simply charging everyone a bunch of taxes and buying and selling the rights to produce more of the problem isn't going to fix it. It's just creating another commodity that the richer countries can afford to pay for out of the pockets of the poor citizens.

The numbers don't add up. If we're really producing 15 out of the 380ppm Dropping it to 13 really isn't going to help. And the worst part is it probably isn't going to drop anyway. We'll end up with some stupid solution like everyone has to drop it by 50% but we can't so we'll buy 10% of yours and 10% of someone else's and even still we go over the Co2 budget now we're in Co2 debt which we'll try to figure out next year. We're not even trying to fix the problem. We just found a new resource to buy and sell. The goddam stuff will probably end up on the stock market. And the scientists will keep getting billions of dollars in funding and the environmentalists will keep strumming the accoustic guitars and the planet will do whatever the hell it wants anyway.

There is actually an organization called "Friends of the earth." I got bad news for you. The earth doesn't give a shit about us. The planet is going to go on about it's business whether we're comfortable with it or not.
 
Did all the climatologists, environmentalists and scientists forget that CO2 from humans is causing climate change? ROFLMAO Maybe we have all been punked after all!

Copenhagen climate summit: 1,200 limos, 140 private planes and caviar wedges

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That's kind of like having an AA meeting and everyone shows up in a beer truck.
 
Did all the climatologists, environmentalists and scientists forget that CO2 from humans is causing climate change? ROFLMAO Maybe we have all been punked after all!

I said you very well could be right, didn't I?

That's kind of like having an AA meeting and everyone shows up in a beer truck.

Well, someone got me to go to my first (and last) AA meeting by telling me it stood for alcohol available.
 
Interesting article on Lou Dobbs website....


Why the climatologists get it wrong.

Many of you are too young to remember, but in 1975 our government pushed "the coming ice age."

Random House dutifully printed "THE WEATHER CONSPIRACY ... coming of the New Ice Age." This may be the only book ever written by 18 authors. All 18 lived just a short sled ride from Washington, D.C. Newsweek fell in line and did a cover issue warning us of global cooling on April 28, 1975. And The New York Times, Aug. 14, 1976, reported "many signs that Earth may be headed for another ice age."

OK, you say, that's media. But what did our rational scientists say?

In 1974, the National Science Board announced: "During the last 20 to 30 years, world temperature has fallen, irregularly at first but more sharply over the last decade. Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end...leading into the next ice age."

You can't blame these scientists for sucking up to the fed's mantra du jour. Scientists live off grants. Remember how Galileo recanted his preaching about the earth revolving around the sun? He, of course, was about to be barbecued by his leaders. Today's scientists merely lose their cash flow. Threats work.

In 2002 I stood in a room of the Smithsonian. One entire wall charted the cooling of our globe over the last 60 million years. This was no straight line. The curve had two steep dips followed by leveling. There were no significant warming periods. Smithsonian scientists inscribed it across some 20 feet of plaster, with timelines.

Last year, I went back. That fresco is painted over. The same curve hides behind smoked glass, shrunk to three feet but showing the same cooling trend. Hey, why should the Smithsonian put its tax-free status at risk? If the politicians decide to whip up public fear in a different direction, get with it, oh ye subsidized servants. Downplay that embarrassing old chart and maybe nobody will notice.

Sorry, I noticed.

It's the job of elected officials to whip up panic. They then get re-elected. Their supporters fall in line.

Al Gore thought he might ride his global warming crusade back toward the White House. If you saw his movie, which opened showing cattle on his farm, you start to understand how shallow this is. The United Nations says that cattle, farting and belching methane, create more global warming than all the SUVs in the world. Even more laughably, Al and his camera crew flew first class for that film, consuming 50% more jet fuel per seat-mile than coach fliers, while his Tennessee mansion sucks as much carbon as 20 average homes.

His PR folks say he's "carbon neutral" due to some trades. I'm unsure of how that works, but, maybe there's a tribe in the Sudan that cannot have a campfire for the next hundred years to cover Al's energy gluttony. I'm just not sophisticated enough to know how that stuff works. But I do understand he flies a private jet when the camera crew is gone.

The fall of Saigon in the '70s may have distracted the shrill pronouncements about the imminent ice age. Science's prediction of "A full-blown, 10,000 year ice age," came from its March 1, 1975 issue. The Christian Science Monitor observed that armadillos were retreating south from Nebraska to escape the "global cooling" in its Aug. 27, 1974 issue.

That armadillo caveat seems reminiscent of today's tales of polar bears drowning due to glaciers disappearing.

While scientists march to the drumbeat of grant money, at least trees don't lie. Their growth rings show what's happened no matter which philosophy is in power. Tree rings show a mini ice age in Europe about the time Stradivarius crafted his violins. Chilled Alpine Spruce gave him tighter wood so the instruments sang with a new purity. But England had to give up the wines that the Romans cultivated while our globe cooled, switching from grapes to colder weather grains and learning to take comfort with beer, whisky and ales.

Yet many centuries earlier, during a global warming, Greenland was green. And so it stayed and was settled by Vikings for generations until global cooling came along. Leif Ericsson even made it to Newfoundland. His shallow draft boats, perfect for sailing and rowing up rivers to conquer villages, wouldn't have stood a chance against a baby iceberg.

Those sustained temperature swings, all before the evil economic benefits of oil consumption, suggest there are factors at work besides humans.

Today, as I peck out these words, the weather channel is broadcasting views of a freakish and early snow falling on Dallas. The Iowa state extension service reports that the record corn crop expected this year will have unusually large kernels, thanks to "relatively cool August and September temperatures." And on Jan. 16, 2007, NPR went politically incorrect, briefly, by reporting that "An unusually harsh winter frost, the worst in 20 years, killed much of the California citrus, avocados and flower crops."

To be fair, those reports are short-term swings. But the longer term changes are no more compelling, unless you include the ice ages, and then, perhaps, the panic attempts of the 1970s were right. Is it possible that if we put more CO2 in the air, we'd forestall the next ice age?

I can ask "outrageous" questions like that because I'm not dependent upon government money for my livelihood. From the witch doctors of old to the elected officials today, scaring the bejesus out of the populace maintains their status.

Sadly, the public just learned that our scientific community hid data and censored critics. Maybe the feds should drop this crusade and focus on our health care crisis. They should, of course, ignore the life insurance statistics that show every class of American and both genders are living longer than ever. That's another inconvenient fact.
 
Did all the climatologists, environmentalists and scientists forget that CO2 from humans is causing climate change? ROFLMAO Maybe we have all been punked after all!

Copenhagen climate summit: 1,200 limos, 140 private planes and caviar wedges

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You guys still actually believe that this "Copenhagen Climate Summit" is still really all about the weather huh? LOL!! :thumbsup:

The G20 Summit had to happen first to set in place the 'Copenhagen Climate Summit', it all falls into place when you start putting the pieces of the puzzle together folks...Dick Morris, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly...all the peeps that the conservative republicans hold dear are now even getting on board with the so-called conspiracy theorists in their beliefs and what I have been trying to get you guys to see with an open mind now for a few years...this "Global NWO" or "One World Government" that the powers that be are now bringing into place.

In the first 50 seconds of this first video here listen to what Dick Morris states about the IMF. The IMF is also talked about and mentioned in several pages in the UNFCCC or the "Framework Convention On Climate Change" or as you guys call it the 'Copenhagen Climate Summit' that I emailed the draft of to both Skiny and Bryan here.

Listen to what Sean Hannity says at 4:05 in the video...OMG, could it be that RobWin has been right all along...say it ain't so peeps...:p



And even our dearly beloved O'Reilly too...OMG, what is going on here? Look, if you guys ever want to have a serious discussion about all of this, then you know where my Glen Beck "One World Government" thread is located. I will be posting some new info there from these conservative peeps (now conspiracy theorists too...lol) that may or may not interest you guys but at least you will most likely not call them loony...;)

Until then, I will patiently sit back again and listen to you guys go back and forth discussing the weather! :cool: Hopefully though, you guys will actually start to get this bigger picture here about how all of this Climate talk is just simply a means of getting to the real crux of what their global agenda plans really are and is simply a way and means approach of implementing it. I sincerely do wish that you guys would delve deeper into all of this....

Listen to Bill here at 46 seconds into this vid.....



PS. By the way Bryan, Lou Dobbs has been a believer and has spoken out on many, many occasions regarding this NWO and also the 'Copenhagen Climate Summit' an tying the two together for quite some time now. He may well be one of the biggest so-called 'Conspiracy Theorists'

Ok, I'm out of here...I will leave you guys to further discuss the weather..;)
____
____
 
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You guys still actually believe that this "Copenhagen Climate Summit" is still really all about the weather huh? LOL!! :thumbsup:

The G20 Summit had to happen first to set in place the 'Copenhagen Climate Summit', it all falls into place when you start putting the pieces of the puzzle together folks...Dick Morris, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly...all the peeps that the conservative republicans hold dear are now even getting on board with the so-called conspiracy theorists in their beliefs and what I have been trying to get you guys to see with an open mind now for a few years...this "Global NWO" or "One World Government" that the powers that be are now bringing into place.

In the first 50 seconds of this first video here listen to what Dick Morris states about the IMF. The IMF is also talked about and mentioned in several pages in the UNFCCC or the "Framework Convention On Climate Change" or as you guys call it the 'Copenhagen Climate Summit' that I emailed the draft of to both Skiny and Bryan here.

Listen to what Sean Hannity says at 4:05 in the video...OMG, could it be that RobWin has been right all along...say it ain't so peeps...:p

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


And even our dearly beloved O'Reilly too...OMG, what is going on here? Look, if you guys ever want to have a serious discussion about all of this, then you know where my Glen Beck "One World Government" thread is located. I will be posting some new info there from these conservative peeps (now conspiracy theorists too...lol) that may or may not interest you guys but at least you will most likely not call them loony...;)

Until then, I will patiently sit back again and listen to you guys go back and forth discussing the weather! :cool: Hopefully though, you guys will actually start to get this bigger picture here about how all of this Climate talk is just simply a means of getting to the real crux of what their global agenda plans really are and is simply a way and means approach of implementing it. I sincerely do wish that you guys would delve deeper into all of this....

Listen to Bill here at 46 seconds into this vid.....

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PS. By the way Bryan, Lou Dobbs has been a believer and has spoken out on many, many occasions regarding this NWO and also the 'Copenhagen Climate Summit' an tying the two together for quite some time now. He may well be one of the biggest so-called 'Conspiracy Theorists'

Ok, I'm out of here...I will leave you guys to further discuss the weather..;)
____
____

Who ever thought, in their wildest dreams, that Dobbs, Hannity, Beck, O'Reilly, et al wouldn't jump on the conspiracy theory band wagon on climate change? And these clowns are exactly WHY no one who's anyone has bought into the "hoax" claim. And I call 'em looney alla time! Who could be less credible than these nutbags at Fox? Not one respected news agency in the world regards anything originating from Fox as "news". Not CBS, or the Washington Post, or The New York Times or the Chicago Tribune, CNN, ABC, NBC, the London Times - were any Fox "reporters" ever allowed access, even to Bush's press conferences? I don't remember. But, hey, if you're right, great! I'll eat a bug and you can say "I told you so" But I wouldn't bet on it or that the earth would even remotely resemble what it is today if over 350 ppm CO2 were the norm. Even if Glenn Beck :lolup: says it isn't so.
 
The problem with conspiracy theorists is they tend to be the ones standing in the front of the pack doing all the finger pointing and arm waving. You dont have to believe in a global governmental conspiracy to believe that something is a load of crap. There are some of us who seriously doubt theres a huge conspiracy involving one government or organization trying to take over the world. There are also some of us that believe this is just exploitation of bad science and alarmism.

I have a terrible time believing that any climatologist regardless of how powerful his computer is can predict anything weather related 10 years in advance when they cant even reliably tell me if its going to rain 3 days from now. We do not understand the weather. There are a million things happening all at once from subterranean gasses billowing out from under ground to radiation from space and everywhere in between. All of it has an effect on the climate whether its over a hundred thousand year span or a few decades. And the reality is we cant say with any amount of certainty exactly how any of it is affecting the climate because some things are amplifying other things and other things are being diminished in the process.

Maybe the little extra Co2 is warming things up a degree. Maybe its not. We know its a fact that Co2 is a greenhouse gas but we do not know for a fact what effect its having on the climate. And it is most certainly bad science to say something is a fact when its not been proven. Yes, we can say that Co2 and the earths temperature are related. We can also say that sun spot activity and the earths temperature are related. We can also say that the earths orbit and the earths temperature are related. What we cant say is we know for a fact what caused the temperature to fall 100 years ago or rise 60 years ago or fall again 40 years ago or rise 20 years ago or sit around doing pretty much nothing for the last little while.

What doesnt surprise me is the only reason our governments are willing to cling to also happens to be the only profitable one. We cant charge people for sunspots. (Yet.) We cant charge people taxes according to the earths orbit or by how many volcanoes erupt. (Yet.) We can charge people for what we buy and sell and produce and it just so happens that almost everything produces some amount of Co2 and until someone can give me a better reason for paying an extra buck a liter for gasoline than We think its changing the climate. Id rather save a few bucks at the pump rather than line the pockets of our leaders and their lackies.

And heres another interesting thought. We havent had a real ice age in ten thousand years. Maybe that little one we had a few decades ago was just a prelude to something more severe. Were probably about due for another ice age. Maybe that extra few ppm of Co2 weve pumped into the atmosphere is keeping us from retiring 20 or 30 years from now under 3 feet of ice. But who knows? I certainly dont and neither does the IPCC.
 
Skiny could have written this article....:p

HERE are the 100 reasons, released in a dossier issued by the European Foundation, why climate change is natural and not man-made:

1) There is no real scientific proof that the current warming is caused by the rise of greenhouse gases from mans activity.

2) Man-made carbon dioxide emissions throughout human history constitute less than 0.00022 percent of the total naturally emitted from the mantle of the earth during geological history.

3) Warmer periods of the Earths history came around 800 years before rises in CO2 levels.

4) After World War II, there was a huge surge in recorded CO2 emissions but global temperatures fell for four decades after 1940.

5) Throughout the Earths history, temperatures have often been warmer than now and CO2 levels have often been higher more than ten times as high.

6) Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time.

7) The 0.7C increase in the average global temperature over the last hundred years is entirely consistent with well-established, long-term, natural climate trends.


More here:
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New Scientist Crushes Daily Express Denialist List...

...With 50 Referenced Reasons For Climate Breakdown Link Removed (invalid URL)

HERE are the 100 reasons, released in a dossier issued by the European Foundation, why climate change is natural and not man-made:

1) There is no real scientific proof that the current warming is caused by the rise of greenhouse gases from mans activity.
Technically,
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, not in science. Whatever terminology you choose to use, however, there is overwhelming evidence that the current warming is caused by Link Removed (invalid URL)

2) Man-made carbon dioxide emissions throughout human history constitute less than 0.00022 percent of the total naturally emitted from the mantle of the earth during geological history.

Misleading comparison. Since the industrial age began
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3) Warmer periods of the Earths history came around 800 years before rises in CO2 levels.

In the past 3 million years changing levels of sunshine triggered and ended the ice ages. Carbon dioxide was a feedback that increased warming, rather than the initial cause. In the more distant past,
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4) After World War II, there was a huge surge in recorded CO2 emissions but global temperatures fell for four decades after 1940.

In fact, temperatures fell during the 1940s and then remained roughly level until the late 1970s. The fall was partly due to high levels of pollutants such as sulphur dioxide counteracting the warming effect.

5) Throughout the Earths history, temperatures have often been warmer than now and CO2 levels have often been higher more than ten times as high.

Which shows that higher CO2 means higher temperatures, taking into account the fact that the sun was cooler in the past. The crucial point is that
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6) Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time.

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And sea level has been up to 70 metres higher during warm periods. If that happens again, there'll be no more London or New York.

7) The 0.7C increase in the average global temperature over the last hundred years is entirely consistent with well-established, long-term, natural climate trends.

Wrong. The rapid warming since the late 1970s has occurred
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Link Removed (invalid URL)

In support of bryand's version of science, some very credible people have also gotten behind the
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story.
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:lolup:
 
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I followed this thread with great interest - particularly the widely disparate views of Lots0, Bryand and Skiny.

So when a friend in Australia sent me the following I thought it might be a worthy contribution to a fascinating discussion - it's unsourced, I'm afraid, but very illustrative in my opinion (assuming it's correct, of course).


Here's a practical way to understand Mr. Rudd's Carbon Pollution
(sic) Reduction Scheme.

Imagine 1 kilometre of atmosphere and we want to get rid of the
carbon pollution in it created by human activity.

Let's go for a walk along it.

The first 770 metres are Nitrogen.

The next 210 metres are Oxygen.

That's 980 metres of the 1 kilometre. 20 metres to go.

The next 10 metres are water vapour. 10 metres left.

9 metres are argon. Just 1 more metre.

A few gases make up the first bit of that last metre.

The last 38 centimetres of the kilometre - that's carbon
dioxide. A bit over one foot.

97% of that is produced by Mother Nature. It's natural.

Out of our journey of one kilometre, there are just 12
millimetres left. Just over a centimetre - about half an inch.

That's the amount of carbon dioxide that global human activity
puts into the atmosphere.

And of those 12 millimetres Australia puts in 0.18 of a millimetre.

Less than the thickness of a hair. Out of a kilometre!

As a hair is to a kilometre - so is Australia's contribution to
what Mr.Rudd calls Carbon Pollution.

Imagine Brisbane's new Gateway Bridge, ready to be opened by Mr.
Rudd.

It's been polished, painted and scrubbed by an army of workers
till its 1 kilometre length is surgically clean. Except that Mr.Rudd says
we have a problem, the bridge is polluted - there's a human hair on
the roadway. We'd laugh ourselves silly.

It's hard to imagine that Australia's contribution to carbon
dioxide in the world's atmosphere is one of the more pressing ones.
And I can't believe that a new tax on everything is the only way to blow
that pesky hair away.

After all, the sun controls the climate on our planet, not human
beings. Always has, always will. Only the arrogance of human
beings over their own importance makes people think otherwise.
 
...After all, the sun controls the climate on our planet, not human beings. Always has, always will...

Huh! Well, then if that is true then it would have to be true, also, even when we human beings have, effectively, blotted out the sun. So, then you wouldn't refuse an invitation to run a marathon in either of these lovely locals? :D

The smokestacks are WWII era when war production produced so much sulfur dioxide it is universally accepted to be the cause of the cooling during the 40's that, once leveled off after the War, kept things pretty constant until the 70's.

And you're right. Percentage-wise, Australia's part in climate change, (if any of it can even be attributed to humans, at all) would be, for all practical purposes, immeasurable. But Australians, as well as Americans, could still be enslaved by Japan and/or Germany, today, had it not been for the concerted efforts and sacrifices of her fighting men along with her allies. So what's a few, pro-rated points added to our taxes when we're talking about freedom, mate? :D
 
...With 50 Referenced Reasons For Climate Breakdown Link Removed (invalid URL)


Quote:
Originally Posted by bryand
HERE are the 100 reasons, released in a dossier issued by the European Foundation, why climate change is natural and not man-made:

1) There is no real scientific proof that the current warming is caused by the rise of greenhouse gases from mans activity.


Technically, proof exists only in mathematics, not in science. Whatever terminology you choose to use, however, there is overwhelming evidence that the current warming is caused by the rise in greenhouse gases due to human activities.

Evidence is not proof. And the mathematics comes from computer generated climate models that can in no way simulate the reality of the earths climate. I dont care how powerful your computer is. Theres just no way you can come close to duplicating what this planets climate does in 10 minutes, much less what it will do in 10 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryand
2) Man-made carbon dioxide emissions throughout human history constitute less than 0.00022 percent of the total naturally emitted from the mantle of the earth during geological history.


Misleading comparison. Since the industrial age began human emissions are far higher than volcanic emissions.

Yes they are. And both even combined only make up a tiny fraction of the Co2 in the earths atmosphere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bryand
3) Warmer periods of the Earths history came around 800 years before rises in CO2 levels.


In the past 3 million years changing levels of sunshine triggered and ended the ice ages. Carbon dioxide was a feedback that increased warming, rather than the initial cause. In the more distant past, several warming episodes were directly triggered by CO2.

Water vapor is a much stronger greenhouse gas and makes up a huge percentage of the earths atmosphere. As the earths temperature rises, the Co2 levels rise as do the water vapor levels. This is all known science. What is not known is what effect increasing the Co2 level by .005% has on the greenhouse effect. What warming periods were triggered by Co2?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bryand
4) After World War II, there was a huge surge in recorded CO2 emissions but global temperatures fell for four decades after 1940.


In fact, temperatures fell during the 1940s and then remained roughly level until the late 1970s. The fall was partly due to high levels of pollutants such as sulphur dioxide counteracting the warming effect.

Thats one theory. Heres another.
sunspots-climate-friends-of-science.gif


400yr-sunspot-graph-copy.jpg


The Maunder minimum coincides with the "Little Ice Age" by the way.

Now the argument is that the sunspot activity has decreased since the 80s but the temperature has increased so the reason must be Co2 increasing the temperature but at the same time the Co2 has increased over the last 20 years steadily but the temperature is now falling.

Expired Image


Quote:
Originally Posted by bryand
5) Throughout the Earths history, temperatures have often been warmer than now and CO2 levels have often been higher more than ten times as high.


Which shows that higher CO2 means higher temperatures, taking into account the fact that the sun was cooler in the past. The crucial point is that civilisation is adapted to 20th century temperatures.

This is the entire problem with the theory. Higher temperatures and higher Co2 levels does NOT automatically mean one causes the other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bryand
6) Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time.


Yes! And sea level has been up to 70 metres higher during warm periods. If that happens again, there'll be no more London or New York.

During the depths of the last ice age 18,000 years ago when hundreds of thousands of cubic miles of ice were stacked up on the continents as glaciers, sea level was 120 m lower than it is now. For the past 6,000 years the world's sea level has been gradually approaching the level we see today. During the previous interglacial about 120,000 years ago, sea level was for a short time about 6 m higher than today.

When was it 70 meters higher?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bryand
7) The 0.7C increase in the average global temperature over the last hundred years is entirely consistent with well-established, long-term, natural climate trends.


Wrong. The rapid warming since the late 1970s has occurred even though other factors that can warm the planet, such as the sun's intensity, have remained constant.

The suns intensity is not the only factor. The amount of sunspots have not remained constant.
 
Evidence is not proof. And the mathematics comes from computer generated climate models that can in no way simulate the reality of the earths climate. I dont care how powerful your computer is. Theres just no way you can come close to duplicating what this planets climate does in 10 minutes, much less what it will do in 10 years.

The following statement should suffice to answer all of your previously posted points, as well as the one reproduced for this post, as far as I'm concerned:

True. "Evidence" is not proof. Even "overwhelming evidence" (my complete, original quote snippet) is not "proof". But the overwhelming evidence which has led over 1,300 scientific communities, worldwide to concur that the current climate trends are man made and, therefore, must be addressed by man, collectively, is, probably, much better than anything you've got, here, or in 100,000 other posts you could make to the contrary.

By the way, colored portions in my last post are the links to the science which support Mr. Le Page's comments. And as the link you posted to The New Scientist doesn't really go anywhere, I've taken the liberty of re-posting the actual link, Link Removed (invalid URL)

And I don't quite get the point of your last post. Was it to disagree with me? Or was it to disagree with bryand? Or was it to simply disagree, setting yourself apart by disagreeing with everybody whereby that could serve as the point which would negate the need to establish any actual point, at all? :D

That conservative pundits and politicos have chosen to turn the issue of climate change into a political debate against liberals, for no other reason than their own self serving interests, which they feel can only be advanced by converting as many issues as possible, which should concern us all, into shrill, illogical, shrieks of "Us against them!" was to be expected. That so many "anti-liberals" have been so easily suckered into doing these a-hole's bidding for them, against all reason and even against their own interests, as partners in the global community, and that they could be so easily lured, like lemmings, into anything so preposterous as the notion that climate change is come kind of a scam or hoax, just because climate change has been misrepresented to them as a "liberal" concept and that, alone, should suffice for them to be "anti"-climate change, is just sickening. - bernynhel
 
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[/color]
The following statement should suffice to answer all of your previously posted points, as well as the one reproduced for this post, as far as I'm concerned:

True. "Evidence" is not proof. Even "overwhelming evidence" (my complete, original quote snippet) is not "proof". But the overwhelming evidence which has led over 1,300 scientific communities, worldwide to concur that the current climate trends are man made and, therefore, must be addressed by man, collectively, is, probably, much better than anything you've got, here, or in 100,000 other posts you could make to the contrary.

By the way, colored portions in my last post are the links to the science which support Mr. Le Page's comments. And as the link you posted to The New Scientist doesn't really go anywhere, I've taken the liberty of re-posting the actual link, Link Removed (invalid URL)

And I don't quite get the point of your last post. Was it to disagree with me? Or was it to disagree with bryant? Or was it to simply disagree, setting yourself apart by disagreeing with everybody whereby that could serve as the point which would negate the need to establish any actual point, at all? :D

That conservative pundits and politicos have chosen to turn the issue of climate change into a political debate against liberals, for no other reason than their own self serving interests, which they feel can only be advanced by converting as many issues as possible, which should concern us all, into shrill, illogical, shrieks of "Us against them!" was to be expected. That so many "anti-liberals" have been so easily suckered into doing these a-hole's bidding for them, against all reason and even against their own interests, as partners in the global community, and that they could be so easily lured, like lemmings, into anything so preposterous as the notion that climate change is come kind of a scam or hoax, just because climate change has been misrepresented to them as a "liberal" concept and that, alone, should suffice for them to be "anti"-climate change, is just sickening. - bernynhel

if you retire from the science world would you consider being my lawyer :thumbs up:
 
That conservative pundits and politicos have chosen to turn the issue of climate change into a political debate against liberals, for no other reason than their own self serving interests, which they feel can only be advanced by converting as many issues as possible, which should concern us all, into shrill, illogical, shrieks of "Us against them!" was to be expected. That so many "anti-liberals" have been so easily suckered into doing these a-hole's bidding for them, against all reason and even against their own interests, as partners in the global community, and that they could be so easily lured, like lemmings, into anything so preposterous as the notion that climate change is come kind of a scam or hoax, just because climate change has been misrepresented to them as a "liberal" concept and that, alone, should suffice for them to be "anti"-climate change, is just sickening. - bernynhel

It has become obvious that the current direction of the negotiations in Copenhagen center around socialist-type, global control rather than climate change. Just listen to the speeches. I believe the liberals snookered their own.
 
The following statement should suffice to answer all of your previously posted points, as well as the one reproduced for this post, as far as I'm concerned:

True. "Evidence" is not proof. Even "overwhelming evidence" (my complete, original quote snippet) is not "proof". But the overwhelming evidence which has led over 1,300 scientific communities, worldwide to concur that the current climate trends are man made and, therefore, must be addressed by man, collectively, is, probably, much better than anything you've got, here, or in 100,000 other posts you could make to the contrary.

In 2004, history professor Naomi Oreskes performed a survey of research papers on climate change. Examining peer-reviewed papers published on the ISI Web of Science database from 1993 to 2003
Medical researcher Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte updated this research in 2007.

Using the same database and search terms as Oreskes, he examined all papers published from 2004 to February 2007. Of 528 total papers on climate change, only 38 (7%) gave an explicit endorsement of the consensus. If one considers implicit endorsement (accepting the consensus without explicit statement), the figure rises to 45%. However, while only 32 papers (6%) reject the consensus outright, the largest category (48%) are neutral papers, refusing to either accept or reject the hypothesis.

The ISI Web of Science database covers 8,700 journals and publications, including every leading scientific journal in the world.

The reports by the IPCC are basically meaningless since the Thousands of scientists who Wrote them have very little say about what actually goes in them and no say in how it is worded. In fact many of these scientists have actually left the panel because they disagree with the IPCC findings yet their names remain on the reports as contributors. Not to mention the thousands of scientists outside the IPCC who receive government grants to study the effects of climate change, Co2 and anything else climate change related provided the findings agree with the IPCC concensus.
There is just as much evidence to the contrary and yet this evidence is not overwhelming. I guess overwhelming is a matter of opinion.

By the way, colored portions in my last post are the links to the science which support Mr. Le Page's comments. And as the link you posted to The New Scientist doesn't really go anywhere, I've taken the liberty of re-posting the actual link, Link Removed (invalid URL)

The link in question was actually Bryands as I kept his statements above yours so that your answers made sense. I hadnt actually intended for it to be posted as a link. Just a copy of Bryands text.

And I don't quite get the point of your last post. Was it to disagree with me? Or was it to disagree with bryand? Or was it to simply disagree, setting yourself apart by disagreeing with everybody whereby that could serve as the point which would negate the need to establish any actual point, at all? :D

It was a simple fact. In your previous post you said "The rapid warming since the late 1970s has occurred even though other factors that can warm the planet, such as the sun's intensity, have remained constant." Sunpsots and sun intesity are not the same thing. One does not have the same effect on the earth's climate as the other.
 
It has become obvious that the current direction of the negotiations in Copenhagen center around socialist-type, global control rather than climate change. Just listen to the speeches. I believe the liberals snookered their own.

I'm glad that you were able to see thru that veil of climate disinformation Bryan and finally see what this 'Copenhagen Draft Summit' was really all about. If you do take the time to read thru some of that pdf draft you will clearly see that "global control" is what it was always really about...:thumbsup:
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I'm glad that you were able to see thru that veil of climate disinformation Bryan and finally see what this 'Copenhagen Draft Summit' was really all about. If you do take the time to read thru some of that pdf draft you will clearly see that "global control" is what it was always really about...:thumbsup:
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I know you've been saying that all along. But I see their motivation as world wealth redistribution rather than a one-world government. Of course they could be one in the same as far as I know.
 
I know you've been saying that all along. But I see their motivation as world wealth redistribution rather than a one-world government. Of course they could be one in the same as far as I know.

Yes, you are correct Bryan, that is exactly what it is mostly all about and they will need a governing body to implement their agenda, thus in comes the NWO (New World Order) which will control. This could also be a totally new role for the UN if that is in fact the body they choose to put in place for this one world government dictating body.

This was just the first round of these talks as well. It will most likely be a two to three year process IMO before something as bold as this would gain enough world wide support from the current world leaders to all sign off on. But, this is the ultimate agenda of the true, unseen "powers that be".
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...It was a simple fact. In your previous post you said "The rapid warming since the late 1970s has occurred even though other factors that can warm the planet, such as the sun's intensity, have remained constant." Sunpsots and sun intesity are not the same thing. One does not have the same effect on the earth's climate as the other.

Exactly when did "The rapid warming since the late 1970s has occurred even though other factors that can warm the planet, such as the sun's intensity, have remained constant." start meaning that "sunspots and sun intensity are the same thing?" Where did I say that they're the same thing? That's right! I didn't! Notice how the quotation marks you used to show what I said stop just before "Sunspots and sun intensity..."? Well that means that everything else after the second quotation mark is what you said, not me.

Actually, I was quoting Mr. Pearce but that's only part of it. The colored portion of the statements in that post are the links to the supporting articles for each of the statements. Had you clicked it, you wouldn't have tried to put words in my mouth such as "sunspots and sun intensity are the same thing". You said that not me. I said "such as the sun's intensity", not sunspots = sun's intensity. A phrase like '"such as the sun's intensity" is generally regarded as if "among other factors" or a similar addendum, followed and not that anything else, including sunspots, is equal to or the same as it. But since you bring it up, allow me to quote Mr Pearce, again: "for the time period for which we have direct, reliable records, the Earth has warmed dramatically even though there has been no corresponding rise in any kind of solar activity." (Including sunspots.) Capiche?

Considering the 100 list actually includes such nonsense as, "2) Man-made carbon dioxide emissions throughout human history constitute less than 0.00022 percent of the total naturally emitted from the mantle of the earth during geological history.", the basis for it's refuting the legitimacy of man's contribution to global climate change relying entirely upon expressing man's CO2 output, since the beginning of man, a few hundred thousand years, give or take, as a percentage of the CO2 output of the earth's mantle (???) during geological history (or the age of the earth, itself, about 4.5 billion years), is a statement so ridiculous that the other 99 statements on that list become null and void from total lack of credibility by association to 2)! As if the earth's mantle was the sole emitter of CO2 since the earth formed until man showed up or that every molecule emitted by everything since then is still intact, today, in it's original form. So if you stack up man's emitted CO2 inito a puny little pile and compare it to this HUGE earth's mantle CO2 pile over here... Really?!? Never mind that the comparison is completely irrelevant. Are you defending that?

Semantics notwithstanding, I still don't see your point. Or does my handling of your objections diminish it to moot? Are you arguing to say that we shouldn't address global climate change because it's all BS and the earth's just going to warm and cool because of factors we have no control over?

://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11650

Climate myths: Global warming is down to the Sun, not humans

"Switch off the Sun and Earth would become a very chilly place. No one denies our star's central role in determining how warm our planet is. The issue today is how much solar changes have contributed to the recent warming, and what that tells us about future climate.

The total amount of solar energy reaching Earth can vary due to changes in the Sun's output, such as those associated with sunspots, or in Earth's orbit. Orbital oscillations can also result in different parts of Earth getting more or less sunlight even when the total amount reaching the planet remains constant - similar to the way the tilt in Earth's axis produces the hemispheric seasons. There may also be more subtle effects (see Climate myths: Cosmic rays are causing climate change), but these remain unproven.

On timescales that vary from millions of years through to the more familiar 11-year sunspot cycles, variations in the amount of solar energy reaching Earth have a huge influence on our atmosphere and climate. But the Sun is far from being the only player.

How do we know? According to solar physicists, the sun emitted a third less energy about 4 billion years ago and has been steadily brightening ever since. Yet for most of this time, Earth has been even warmer than today, a phenomenon sometimes called the faint sun paradox. The reason: higher levels of greenhouse gases trapping more of the sun's heat.

Amplified effect
Nearer our own time, the coming and going of the ice ages that have gripped the planet in the past two million years were probably triggered by fractional changes in solar heating (caused by wobbles in the planet's orbit, known as Milankovitch cycles).

The cooling and warming during the ice ages and interglacial periods, however, was far greater than would be expected from the tiny changes in solar energy reaching the Earth. The temperature changes must have been somehow amplified. This most probably happened through the growth of ice sheets, which reflect more solar radiation back into space than darker land or ocean, and transfers of carbon dioxide between the atmosphere and the ocean.

Analysis of ice cores from Greenland and Antarctica shows a very strong correlation between CO2 levels in the atmosphere and temperatures. But what causes what? Proponents of solar influence point out that that temperatures sometimes change first. This, they say, suggest that warming causes rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere, not vice versa. What is actually happening is a far more complicated interaction (see Ice cores show CO2 only rose after the start of warm periods).

Sunspot trouble
So what role, if any, have solar fluctuations had in recent temperature changes? While we can work out how Earth's orbit has changed going back many millions of years, we have no first-hand record of the changes in solar output associated with sunspots before the 20th century.

It is true that sunspot records go back to the 17th century, but sunspots actually block the Sun's radiation. It is the smaller bright spots (faculae) that increase the Sun's output and these were not recorded until more recently. The correlation between sunspots and bright faculae is not perfect, so estimates of solar activity based on sunspot records may be out by as much as 30%.

The other method of working out past solar activity is to measure levels of carbon-14 and beryllium-10 in tree rings and ice cores. These isotopes are formed when cosmic rays hit the atmosphere, and higher sunspot activity is associated with increases in the solar wind that deflect more galactic cosmic rays away from Earth. Yet again, though, the correlation is not perfect. What is more, recent evidence suggests that the deposition of beryllium-10 can be affected by climate changes, making it even less reliable as a measure of past solar activity.

Recent rises
Despite these problems, most studies suggest that before the industrial age, there was a good correlation between natural "forcings" - solar fluctuations and other factors such as the dust ejected by volcanoes - and average global temperatures. Solar forcing may have been largely responsible for warming in the late 19th and early 20th century, levelling off during the mid-century cooling (see Global temperatures fell between 1940 and 1980).

The 2007 IPCC report halved the maximum likely influence of solar forcing on warming over the past 250 years from 40% to 20%. This was based on a reanalysis of the likely changes in solar forcing since the 17th century.

But even if solar forcing in the past was more important than this estimate suggests, as some scientists think, there is no correlation between solar activity and the strong warming during the past 40 years. Claims that this is the case have not stood up to scrutiny (pdf document).

Direct measurements of solar output since 1978 show a steady rise and fall over the 11-year sunspot cycle, but no upwards or downward trend .

Similarly, there is no trend in direct measurements of the Sun's ultraviolet output and in cosmic rays. So for the period for which we have direct, reliable records, the Earth has warmed dramatically even though there has been no corresponding rise in any kind of solar activity.
 
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