SUSPENSION OF eCOGRA SEALS

[jetset]

LOL - talking of sensitive nerves and touchiness you seem to have a somewhat short fuse yourself, Lots0!

If anyone needs to read more carefully I suggest it may be you, starting with the indirect nature of the Ongame, 888.com and MGS involvement in the eCOGRA operational structure as outlined earlier in this thread - the "leaders" at eCOGRA are the independent directors, surely?

Do you have a problem with the credentials of those leaders? How would you have set eCOGRA up, bearing in mind that funding is a necessary evil for this sort of non-government, international initiative and that three otherwise competing software companies are involved?

Judging by your comments earlier in this thread you don't appear to be at odds with the concept of payments for professional business services rendered by eCOGRA to operators regarding responsible gambling, monitoring, reviews, CRM and other business consulting and dispute handling.

That being the case why is there a problem for you with set-up funding by the three founding turnkey providers who are not in direct control of the outfit?

And btw, please take a moment to shake off your own chip - noone's accused you of being anti-eCOGRA, although I probably wouldn't consider you as a strong supporter either

 

[lots0]

Before this thread I was neutral about Ecogra, but no longer.

I have went back over and looked very closely at Ecogra, their members and their actions or lack of them, because of this thread.

...noone's accused you of being anti-eCOGRA...

Well I guess now they can.

 

[RobWin]

On eCOGRAs Home Page you can see written on the Pic I attached below where they say:

"Ensuring proper and transparent monitoring of approved online casinos and poker rooms"

and then the first paragraph on their homepage plainly states:

eCOGRA, a non-profit organization, is the independent standards authority of the online gaming industry, specifically overseeing fair gaming, player protection and responsible operator conduct. The function that eCOGRA performs protects those who engage in online gaming where it is lawful.

I believe the statement that eCOGRA makes saying "transparent monitoring" maybe has a different meaning to eCOGRA than it does to the player community because the player community I have seen over the past couple of years regarding eCOGRA does not see most of their actions as transparent, seems more and more each time something comes up it is more like "Cloak & Dagger" toward the player community that it is "Transparent" as this thread proves, as we all still don't know what the reason was for pulling the seals...now someone please explain to me how I am supposed to view that action by eCOGRA as "Transparent"

I think as far as eCOGRAs credibility goes with the player community that they could greatly improve this by actually being more "Transparent" about their actions toward casinos and player disputes. And as eCOGRA states themselves "specifically overseeing fair gaming, player protection and responsible operator conduct" they could definitely be a little more forthright toward the player community by communicating their actions more clear and a little less "Cloak & Dagger" style would do more than just a little to show the player community that they really do have our best interests at heart...

 

[jetset]

That's constructive criticism which I think should be emailed to eCOGRA as a genuine player opinion worth noting, Rob.

But I also hope you would acknowledge that through its website (often quoted extensively by critics) and regular press releases, statistics and newsletters, the organisation does try to communicate its affairs.

Whilst not disagreeing with your assertion that transparency is of paramount importance when a seal is suspended or withdrawn, I would also suggest that as a corporate entity eCOGRA does not have quite the same latitude as the rest of us who inhabit these message boards. I imagine it could be legally pursued and anything disclosed therefore has to be cautiously considered, especially if there is an NDA in place, or if the final results of an investigation have not yet been signed off.

If there is an ND clause, I would suggest that needs to be removed from any commitments as a policy, as one of the key purposes of suspending the seals (as I see it) must be to not only get a casino back into compliance, but to prevent players getting screwed by any outfit that is not complying with the eGAPs, which were originally designed to protect the player.

By notifying the public of the suspensions, that is to some extent achieved, I suppose but as we have seen in this thread there is additionally a demand for detail on the reasons for the withdrawal of the seals and that clearly needs to be addressed.

This whole issue needs to be finalised quickly in my view, because casino reputations are on the line here, not to mention the impact of a seals suspension on business for affiliates and at Casino Action, where players will naturally be cautious after a serious move such as this.

 

[jetset]

Before this thread I was neutral about Ecogra, but no longer.

I have went back over and looked very closely at Ecogra, their members and their actions or lack of them, because of this thread.

Well I guess now they can.

I would hardly term your posts neutral. But that's your opinion on eCOGRA and your prerogative, Lots0....in the same way as it is mine to offer an opposing view for those with an open mind to consider, too.

So we agree to disagree. It's all good.

Edited to add one more fact here. Any turnkey provider that is prepared and capable of meeting eCOGRA's member acceptance requirements can apply - this is not an exclusive "club" of three major softwares.

It's a pity more of the big companies don't put their support, and that of any of their licensees prepared to commit to its ideals, behind this initiative but I guess some have already invested heavily in respected national licensing and regulatory jurisdictions like Alderney and prefer not to join competing companies in an alternative regime.

 

[lots0]

I would hardly term your posts neutral.

This is not the first time you have misinterpreted/misrepresented what I have written, but it will be the last time.

 

[dominique]

Geez, I am yet to see one post that in any way involves eCOGRA that doesn't turn into a long debate.

IMO, there is no perfect industry guard.

I'd rather have one with blemishes than none.

 

[lots0]

Jetset....

 

[The Dude]

Since this thread seems to have derailed a bit into a pro-eCOGRA/con-eCOGRA back and forth debate, I'm going to attempt to get this back on track.

Seals were removed because of some administrative problem. This problem was supposed to have been taken care of within a couple of days. Yet no one is saying anything, which I find a bit unnerving.

It's been a week now and there has apparently been no progress. Taking this into account, I'm removing this group from the accredited list until I'm comfortable that everything is kosher. I'd rather error on the side of safety than putting players at risk.

 

[RobWin]

That's constructive criticism which I think should be emailed to eCOGRA as a genuine player opinion worth noting, Rob.

But I also hope you would acknowledge that through its website (often quoted extensively by critics) and regular press releases, statistics and newsletters, the organisation does try to communicate its affairs.

Thanks Jet....Oh yea, I absolutely agree with you on that point Jetset, that "the organisation does try to communicate its affairs"... I would just like to see a little more of what I would deem transparent communication along those lines and also just a bit faster too, and I personally believe that that would help to suffice the player community to actually see the benefit that eCOGRA is to this industry....

Whilst not disagreeing with your assertion that transparency is of paramount importance when a seal is suspended or withdrawn, I would also suggest that as a corporate entity eCOGRA does not have quite the same latitude as the rest of us who inhabit these message boards. I imagine it could be legally pursued and anything disclosed therefore has to be cautiously considered, especially if there is an NDA in place, or if the final results of an investigation have not yet been signed off.

If there is an ND clause, I would suggest that needs to be removed from any commitments as a policy, as one of the key purposes of suspending the seals (as I see it) must be to not only get a casino back into compliance, but to prevent players getting screwed by any outfit that is not complying with the eGAPs, which were originally designed to protect the player.

Well you are definitely right on, on that point Jet as I see the ND if there is one as not being transparent at all and I would certainly hope that this is not the case....

By notifying the public of the suspensions, that is to some extent achieved, I suppose but as we have seen in this thread there is additionally a demand for detail on the reasons for the withdrawal of the seals and that clearly needs to be addressed.

And the sooner the better in my opinion which I also believe would show the "Player Protection" aspect that eCOGRA states they uphold which would also better their credibility toward the player community IMHO...

This whole issue needs to be finalised quickly in my view, because casino reputations are on the line here, not to mention the impact of a seals suspension on business for affiliates and at Casino Action, where players will naturally be cautious after a serious move such as this.

 

[Mousey]

Since this thread seems to have derailed a bit into a pro-eCOGRA/con-eCOGRA back and forth debate, I'm going to attempt to get this back on track.

Seals were removed because of some administrative problem. This problem was supposed to have been taken care of within a couple of days. Yet no one is saying anything, which I find a bit unnerving.

It's been a week now and there has apparently been no progress. Taking this into account, I'm removing this group from the accredited list until I'm comfortable that everything is kosher. I'd rather error on the side of safety than putting players at risk.

I was wondering when we might get a 'briefing' and thought they were taking too long. (I didn't ask about it yet because I thought I was merely experiencing my usual paranoia. )

 

[peteyweestro]

this really sucks because music hall has been my favorite casino for a long time, although some rivals and 3 dice are catching up fast

 

[jetset]

Jetset....

Huh?

Ahhhh, I see.

Don't bother answering the "huh?", thanks - I've just opened my emailed copy of your original comment. If you can't debate an issue in a mature and disciplined fashion, don't waste your time or mine.

 

[RobWin]

Anybody heard anything out of eCOGRA yet...it's been quite a while now...

 

[Professor]

My guess is that "Administrative Issues" is the polite way of saying "Accounting Issues".

You gotta pay your taxes if you want to fly the flag.

It does take money to operate any organziation and members often have to provide financial support to make the venture possible.

Unfortunately many operators are facing increased financial pressures this year and are looking to reduce expenses wherever possible. They are also settling debts much later then usual so that leads to "Administrative Issues" also.

 

[jetset]

Press statement just out from Microgaming this evening:

QUOTE:

Company Statement:

'Microgaming announces that it has terminated its software licence with Tusk Investment Corporation - with immediate effect, after having received Tusk's notification of its plans to put the Company into liquidation.

Microgaming is presently gathering all facts related to this matter and will provide further announcements as and when information becomes available.'

About Tusk

Tusk Investment Corporation Limited operates a number of casino sites and poker rooms:

Casinos:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Challenge Casino, Golden Reef Casino, Music Hall Casino, Nostalgia Casino, UK Casino Club; Big Casino

Poker Rooms

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Battlefield Poker, Royal Card Club, Red Nines, Arctic Poker, Raw Poker, Poker.ie, Daily Poker, Flush Draw Poker, Will Bet Poker, Bet Road Poker, Grand Central Poker, Off The Rail Poker, Privy Poker, Berserk Poker, Atomik Poker, Dave's Poker Room, Hetman Poker, Hot Pepper Poker, Poker Seas, TilttAA Poker, Loose Games Poker, CPT Gaming Poker, Ice Bear Poker, GoHard Poker, Caya Poker, Mr Urban Poker, Poker Sweden, Euro Poker Dream

UNQUOTE

From this it appears that the "non-compliance" issue had to do with the casino group failing to maintain the ratio of reserves to obligations.

And it must be pretty serious if the casino group is contemplating going into liquidation.

I'm sure we'll be hearing more from everyone involved in this over the coming days.

 

[Mousey]

OMG... Am I overreacting, or is this really bad??

 

[Jody Nustedt]

That's very surprising news. Those casinos were some of the first ones I ever played, and I used to promote CPS years ago as well when I ran my own sites.

Hope everyone's money is safe.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Unthinkable worst case scenario.

This is the unthinkable worst case scenario.
I have just noticed that deposit options are unavailable, and no games will load, although it is currently possible to log into the accounts.

What is truly astonishing is that the "business as usual" scenario is STILL continuing, with all advertising running fine. I played on Monday with no issues, and there has been NO NOTIFICATION WHATSOEVER TO PLAYERS.

Luckily, I got my last 200 out this morning from UK Casino Club, and only "scraps" and unclaimed comps remain. I also withdrew a 2000 hit earlier on Monday.

eCogra clearly found something EXTREMELY SERIOUS INDEED, and it now seems their actions were rather mild, rather than draconian.

This looks similar to the fate that befell the old captain Cooks group, and shows just how SERIOUS the situation has to be in this industry if this group can go from winning awards to going bust within a month

The repercussions could be serious, what else is over the horizon that we players are totally in the dark about!!!!!

 

[Self Made]

That's about 28 online poker rooms, including some relatively popular and reputable ones like Battlefield and Red Nines.

Hasn't Microgaming covered player balances when things like this happened with their licensees in the past?

 

[vinylweatherman]

In the short while since my last post, I have accessed my accounts to take a note of remaining balances. They are just "scraps" though. However, in this short time I have seen the whole infrastructure seize up. I was earlier able to check my comps balance, yet not redeem. Now, I cannot log into anything to collect any statement information. As well as this, it seems the links to the home pages, and more importantly, customer support have been taken out within the last half hour or so.

It could be of course, that many have read this announcement elsewhere and are besieging the servers to check and hopefully extract any remaining balances.

While MG cover player's money, this probably does NOT extend to unredeemed comps and bonus balances, and players have been given NO OPPORTUNITY WHATSOEVER to "advance plan" for this by putting their accounts in order. This will hit the rest of the industry VERY HARD INDEED, as the next time something like this happens, players will NOT have any degree of trust that this is just an "asministrative issue" that will "not impact players directly". They will go into "disaster mode" at the outset, and remove any balances and complete any outstanding WR. They will be VERY reluctant to continue depositing while "investigations continue".

Players like myself were unknowingly taking a HUGE RISK this week by continuing to support this group while they were SUPPOSEDLY sorting this "minor" issue out, yet behind the scenes it was a MAJOR DISASTER. It is only LUCK that I got my 2200 out earlier, as I could have faced an indefinite wait while the liquidation process continued.

If casinos STILL expect me to leave balances "on account" for a few days waiting for the next opportunity to play and compete, they are even less likely to see me do this than I was already, and even I usually withdrew if I was not intending to play the very next day, and had no WR restrictions on my balance.

Now, who will be next, Casino Rewards with any luck, they have been very quiet of late, not the usual thrust of weekly promotions this last month

 

[dominique]

Microgaming is likely to pay players and affiliates. IMO they are also likely to continue the casinos. Let's see what happens.

At this time some of the games are not working and there is a notice to come back later.

I assume that indicates the casinos are gradually being moved, and that in turn indicates they are not being closed. Ohterwise they would just close them, period.

Just speculation but logical.

I also happen to know there are buy offers on the table, so this may go smoother than we think.

I hope so anyway.

I very much doubt that this is happening elsewhere, it is due to operator issues specific to this group. I.e. two numbnuts recently started running things and screwed up royally.

 

[Mallorca]

I withdrew my balance after reading this thread.The instant withdrawals option is not available so I had not choice and now Ill have to wait until they`ll process it.I hope to get paid.I have been playing at Golden Reef for almost 5 years and never had an issue with them.Will they pay now?.What do you think?.

 

[TDTAT]

Press statement just out from Microgaming this evening:

QUOTE:

Company Statement:

'Microgaming announces that it has terminated its software licence with Tusk Investment Corporation - with immediate effect, after having received Tusk's notification of its plans to put the Company into liquidation.

Microgaming is presently gathering all facts related to this matter and will provide further announcements as and when information becomes available.'

About Tusk

Tusk Investment Corporation Limited operates a number of casino sites and poker rooms:

Casinos:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Challenge Casino, Golden Reef Casino, Music Hall Casino, Nostalgia Casino, UK Casino Club; Big Casino

Poker Rooms

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Battlefield Poker, Royal Card Club, Red Nines, Arctic Poker, Raw Poker, Poker.ie, Daily Poker, Flush Draw Poker, Will Bet Poker, Bet Road Poker, Grand Central Poker, Off The Rail Poker, Privy Poker, Berserk Poker, Atomik Poker, Dave's Poker Room, Hetman Poker, Hot Pepper Poker, Poker Seas, TilttAA Poker, Loose Games Poker, CPT Gaming Poker, Ice Bear Poker, GoHard Poker, Caya Poker, Mr Urban Poker, Poker Sweden, Euro Poker Dream

UNQUOTE

From this it appears that the "non-compliance" issue had to do with the casino group failing to maintain the ratio of reserves to obligations.

And it must be pretty serious if the casino group is contemplating going into liquidation.

I'm sure we'll be hearing more from everyone involved in this over the coming days.

I take it from this and from VWM's post that players should
be instructed to cash in or play any balances, comp points and ect?

I am doing the happy dance that I never promoted this group heavily.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I take it from this and from VWM's post that players should
be instructed to cash in or play any balances, comp points and ect?

I am doing the happy dance that I never promoted this group heavily.

It seems that it is now too late. I tried and failed to cash in my last 20 of comps (I was then going to withdraw the 20).
The instant withdrawals were working 12 hours ago, but it seems that there was no intention to give players ANY time to clear out their balances before the announcement. I suspect this was not a sudden decision, and more could have been done to protect players from the pain of having to WAIT for their money while the wheels of liquidation, and sale of the casinos to a new buyer, takes place.

I just hope they don't get sold to Casino Rewards

 

[RobWin]

Wow !...That's some "administrative problem" in the eyes of eCOGRA ? Are you kidding me...I am really trying right now to be constructive regarding my criticism of eCOGRA with the way that they have handled this situation but I tell you the truth they are really making it hard for me to do that when for over two weeks now eCOGRA has known what was going on over there and they still elected to remain quite about it and put players and affiliates at further risk by doing business with this group of casinos.

How can I as a player start to have faith in this organization again when they clearly have not come forth with the seriousness of this issue and warned the player community properly as they are supposed to be "Our Player Advocate" ? They are really making it hard for me to have faith in them that they will do the right thing and look out for my best interests and to have let me and other players make further deposits there over the past two weeks because we just believed this to be a minor "administrative problem" IS JUST BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION OF WHAT A "PLAYER ADVOCATE" SHOULD STAND FOR.

 

[chuchu59]

On the plus side, it seems that they did not stall payments as I received a sum from battlefield poker just 2 days ago.

 

[peteyweestro]

outright disgusting by ecogra in my eyes

 

[jetset]

Wow !...That's some "administrative problem" in the eyes of eCOGRA ? Are you kidding me...I am really trying right now to be constructive regarding my criticism of eCOGRA with the way that they have handled this situation but I tell you the truth they are really making it hard for me to do that when for over two weeks now eCOGRA has known what was going on over there and they still elected to remain quite about it and put players and affiliates at further risk by doing business with this group of casinos.

How can I as a player start to have faith in this organization again when they clearly have not come forth with the seriousness of this issue and warned the player community properly as they are supposed to be "Our Player Advocate" ? They are really making it hard for me to have faith in them that they will do the right thing and look out for my best interests and to have let me and other players make further deposits there over the past two weeks because we just believed this to be a minor "administrative problem" IS JUST BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION OF WHAT A "PLAYER ADVOCATE" SHOULD STAND FOR.

Rob, I think if you look back over this thread you will find that it was a Tusk representative and not eCOGRA that described this as a minor administrative matter and that the seals would soon be reinstated! That was shortly after eCOGRA's press release a week ago that it had suspended the seals.

The fact that eCOGRA suspended the seals (presumably as soon as they uncovered a dangerous non-compliance) indicated this was a serious issue from the start, and I recall I posted as much.

With respect, in my opinion you are attacking the wrong organisation here.

Tusk is the company that apparently allowed commitments and obligations to outstrip ability to pay (which is what a "notification to liquidate" implies for me.)

The fact that eCOGRA discovered it in a routine professional review and publicised its seal suspensions on it in a timeous manner should be acknowledged, not criticised. There may have been reasons why the details could not be disclosed, but the suspension of seals is a serious step not taken lightly and I would suggest that in itself was a red flag.

Had eCOGRA done nothing but sit on its hands after alerting Tusk management I would join the critics here, but this was not the case.

Instead, eCOGRA did what it is supposed to do in terms of its review and monitoring mandate - it found a serious non-compliance with possible consequences for the players; it notified the management of the casino group concerned and it issued a public notification that its "Safe and Fair" seals were no longer valid on the company concerned.

The main players in this sad affair are Tusk, which has decided on the liquidation route and should communicate with the players on its intentions going forward, and Microgaming which has the practical power to halt operations to prevent any further damage, which it has done.

We haven't heard anything yet, but I'm pretty sure MGS will be considering its past strategies when this rare sort of crisis occurs, where despite having no legal obligation to do so it has stepped in with a Player's Trust to assist the players.

We'll have to wait to see what they come up with this time, and I surmise that the size of the deficit the Tusk group has allowed to accumulate will probably be a factor.

 

[RobWin]

Rob, I think if you look back over this thread you will find that it was a Tusk representative and not eCOGRA that described this as a minor administrative matter and that the seals would soon be reinstated! That was shortly after eCOGRA's press release a week ago that it had suspended the seals.

Yes, you are correct about that Jet...what eCOGRA had stated was :

"The following operations were found to have failures in compliance with eCOGRA's eGAP or Generally Accepted Principles - the wide ranging requirements governing all aspects of an accredited company's operations"

and I was in err as stating "administrative problem" ...but Casinomeister and Vinyl and other prominent posters also presumed it to be an "administrative problem" as stated in their posts...but irregardless of that fact in my view no matter the exact reason of the Seal suspensions the fact is still there that eCOGRA has not offered any further comment on this issue to the player community for two weeks now...there is absolutely nothing on eCOGRA's home page either stating that one of their member groups have recently lost their accreditation seals and no warning to the player community whatsoever other than the newsletter that I would guess that 90% or more of the player community doesn't even subscribe to...I know I didn't.

The fact that eCOGRA suspended the seals (presumably as soon as they uncovered a dangerous non-compliance) indicated this was a serious issue from the start, and I recall I posted as much.

With respect, in my opinion you are attacking the wrong organisation here.

Tusk is the company that apparently allowed commitments and obligations to outstrip ability to pay (which is what a "notification to liquidate" implies for me.)

You are definitely right about this being a serious issue and I am not attacking the eCOGRA organization as much as I am stating my dire disappointment with them in the fact that they have remained silent now for two weeks and they have not posted any warning or statement on their website homepage to let the players that do visit their website know what is going on with this group.

If eCOGRA thought the issue serious enough to suspend Seals then I would think as a player they would also think it serious enough to warn the player community in some form or fashion that it may not be in our best interests to deposit at this group until this matter is cleared up as they are "My Player Advocate" which I understand that to mean...that they will look out for my best interests above the casino groups interests.

The fact that eCOGRA discovered it in a routine professional review and publicised its seal suspensions on it in a timeous manner should be acknowledged, not criticised. There may have been reasons why the details could not be disclosed, but the suspension of seals is a serious step not taken lightly and I would suggest that in itself was a red flag.

I agree with you on that point and you and I both recognize the seriousness of it but what about the multitudes of players who don't get the newsletter or don't read the forum boards...how are they supposed to know about these serious issues...those poor souls just go on depositing blindly not knowing what eCOGRA knows about this group and that it could fold at any minute ?

Had eCOGRA done nothing but sit on its hands after alerting Tusk management I would join the critics here, but this was not the case.

Instead, eCOGRA did what it is supposed to do in terms of its review and monitoring mandate - it found a serious non-compliance with possible consequences for the players; it notified the management of the casino group concerned and it issued a public notification that its "Safe and Fair" seals were no longer valid on the company concerned.

I would add to that statement and also say with possible "Serious" consequences for the players" in the fact that the ones that have recently deposited there and have a cashout pending will possibly be waiting for quite some time now for MG to step in and make this issue right for the players...eCOGRA has got to figure out some sort of system of properly warning the player community whether thru forum boards or their website or some other form of communication and they also need to be more transparent in their communication in the future with the player community.

The main players in this sad affair are Tusk, which has decided on the liquidation route and should communicate with the players on its intentions going forward, and Microgaming which has the practical power to halt operations to prevent any further damage, which it has done.

I am also concerned that MG is just now stepping in after two weeks to "halt operations to prevent any further damage"...makes me wonder if eCOGRA actually communicated their serious concerns with MG back a couple of weeks ago ? and if so why did MG wait two weeks to come forward and step in ?

We haven't heard anything yet, but I'm pretty sure MGS will be considering its past strategies when this rare sort of crisis occurs, where despite having no legal obligation to do so it has stepped in with a Player's Trust to assist the players.

And that in and of itself still blows me away on eCOGRA's silence in this...no where on eCOGRA's website or in their eGAP policy can I find anything about or regarding a Non-Disclosure policy with casinos...

 

[jetset]

Rob, are you aware that the eCOGRA press release was widely and publicly distributed throughout the industry media?

It was carried on most of the information portals and online media websites and constitutes the nearest thing to an out and out public warning that I can think of.

That same press release is up on the eCOGRA website, too and as you point out it went out on the opt-in email system of that organisation.

There was not much more they could do to get the word out that the "Safe and Fair" seals were suspended and that these sites were no longer accredited.

I can think of several reasons why it was not possible to specify the reasons behind the seals suspension, and as a businessman I'm sure you can too, but the very fact that the seals were pulled and a public notification made suggests a cause for player caution to me.

In contrast to that, how much communication with the players have you seen from Tusk?

Edited to add:

Speaking of communication, have you seen the latest FGA report which was released to the media earlier this week? It contains some interesting statistics that I believe give the lie to those who claim that eCOGRA is "a puppet" that dances to the tune of its operators.

 

[chuchu59]

This case is akin to a bank consistently being able to hold enough reserves to meet the minimum threshold required against customers' deposits as required by a Banking Authority. I cannot fault eCOGRA for this because no matter how much or little they disclosed, they are bound to be in for criticism for either jumping the gun or being tortoise-slow. However, I am disappointed by MG. Unless I am mistaken ,their statement did not mention anything about the account balances of players. They must have known much earlier that the software licence was going to be terminated yet they were did not issue anything other than it is gathering all facts and will provide further announcements as and when information becomes available. Surely this isnt good enough to address players' concerns. Shouldnt they be giving at least an indication as to what steps they contemplate taking to retrieve the players' account balances for them.

 

[RobWin]

Rob, are you aware that the eCOGRA press release was widely and publicly distributed throughout the industry media?

Yea, I was aware that eCOGRA did release this publicly throughout the industry media, but I guess what I am trying to point out is the fact that there are so many players out there that don't get or don't know where to go and read about industry media releases. I just think that eCOGRA could go a step further in communicating these issues to the player community.

It was carried on most of the information portals and online media websites and constitutes the nearest thing to an out and out warning that I can think of.

My only rebuttal to that Jet would be that there are thousands of players out there that actually don't understand the seriousness of pulling Seals from a casino group like you and I understand them, and I guess they need to educate their-self more on this issue but at the same time I could visualize an eCOGRA organization that could help this process along.

That same press release is up on the eCOGRA website, too and as you point out it went out on the opt-in email system of that organisation.

There was not much more they could do to get the word out that the "Safe and Fair" seals were suspended and that these sites were no longer accredited.

Yes you are correct and I did find it under the "News Tab" but with an issue as serious as this one to actually pull a groups Seals I would expect as a proper player warning for that to be listed on eCOGRA's Homepage...

I can think of several reasons why it was not possible to specify the reasons behind the seals suspension, and as a businessman I'm sure you can too, but the very fact that the seals were pulled and a public notification made suggests a cause for player caution to me.

Yes, I agree that that does suggest a cause for player caution to me and like you said I'm sure there are several reasons why it was not possible to specify the reasons behind the seals suspension at the time...but now with this group apparently folding and the fact that it is two weeks later I think it would be in eCOGRA's best interest as far as the player community is concerned to come forth now and let us all in on what actually went down...

In contrast to that, how much communication with the players have you seen from Tusk?

Absolutely none of any significance other than that statement the Rep came in this thread and made about it is "Still Business As Usual"...so no rebuttal or debate from me on that point Jet...you are absolutely correct...

 

[jetset]

There's only so much an organisation can do to publicise this sort of thing industry-wide, and I have to admit I'm stumped to think of any further moves eCOGRA could have made to inform the public than they did.

I would hope to see a similar effort made by Tusk, or at the very least communication with their registered players advising them on what is happening here and the way forward. Perhaps Tusk players will keep us informed.

In that regard it intrigues me that eCOGRA and MGS are catching flak for doing the right thing here, whilst Tusk's culpability is virtually unmentioned.

My own view coincides with that of chuchu's, and I believe that Tusk's notification to Microgaming that it intends to seek liquidation not only confirms the value of the early suspension of the seals, but suggests that this was/is a considerable business problem from which they have belatedly realised they are unlikely to emerge.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I suspect eCogra did not know much more than MG did at the time. It seems that the suspension of the seals WAS INDEED a SERIOUS matter, far more serious indeed than the Jackpot Factory issue.

This is probably a rare circumstance, BUT, we will learn from this, and so will the industry. NEXT TIME eCogra suspend their seals and we experience a vacuum of information both from them and the casino other than assurances of a "minor administrative problem", it's going to be a case of "get to the lifeboats now!". There will be no continuing to play in the belief that all will be sorted out in due course.

I was cautious at first, but when I successfully cashed out last Thursday I played "properly" on Monday and Tuesday, cashing out via instant payments as usual. This also went smoothly, and my final removal of 200 on Wednesday was only hours before the announcement.

Perhaps eCogra were also fed a story by Tusk, one that made it believe they would redress the shortcomings and get their seals back, as was the case when Jackpot Factory lost it's seals.

Had the player community reacted to the loss of Jackpot Factory seals by refusing to deposit till the seals were restored, they would also have gone bust.

In future, casino groups will have to be VERY CAREFUL about keeping their seals, as even a brief suspension is probably going to drive them out of business while this incident is fresh in players' minds.

ANY casino in future that loses it's seals will NOT be given the benefit of the doubt by me again, this was a close shave, as I could have faced quite a wait for the 2200 had I decided to let it sit around for Today's tournament.

I Emailed their CS about the failure with claiming the comp points, and got the automatic receipt, but no reply, highly unlike the 30 minutes they normally take. Either they are inundated, or they have simply shut up shop to await the procedure of liquidation, and possible onward sale of the affected casinos and poker rooms, which will come with a good player base - so probably an attractive prospect for a WELL FUNDED company.

 

[Jody Nustedt]

experience a vacuum of information both from them and the casino

The lack of information was far-reaching. On 2p2, Battlefield and Red 9s were seemingly unaware of the situation until players reported problems to them.

 

[chuchu59]

Battlefield is still in operation.

 

[Mousey]

I uninstalled Nostalgia (the only one of these casinos I'd installed on my new computer) when I learned eCogra had pulled the seals. However.... I'm still a registered player at most (if not all) the Casino Action casinos. Excuse me, but where is my email from at least one casino in this group telling me WTF is going on?

 

[chalupa]

I don't quite understand the interconnections between the companies, but as I understand it Tusk is the place holding the money?

If that's the case, does anyone have any thoughts on whether it would be better to request a withdrawal, in the hope that it gets paid before Tusk goes belly-up, or to leave the balance in my account in the hopes that Microgaming makes good on it?

I'd like to avoid my withdrawal going into a "pending" state where it disappears from the Microgaming network into Tusks coffers, never to be seen again. I have $4K at one of the poker sites.

 

[c_note]

Seals Suspended by Still valid?

I am not usually against Ecogra, but if I go to any of the Casino Action sites listed in the press release, and click on the ecogra seals, according to the response the casinos are still accredited by Ecogra..

Challenge Casino website has a seal linked to :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Music Hall Casino :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I think ECOGRA need a spanking email. Irrespective of everything else going on, these images should have been yanked the minute the seals were suspended.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I am not usually against Ecogra, but if I go to any of the Casino Action sites listed in the press release, and click on the ecogra seals, according to the response the casinos are still accredited by Ecogra..

Challenge Casino website has a seal linked to :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Music Hall Casino :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I think ECOGRA need a spanking email. Irrespective of everything else going on, these images should have been yanked the minute the seals were suspended.

Oh dear!

Looks like a MAJOR screw-up. Not only have the casinos failed to remove the seals, but eCogra have left their certificates on the eCogra website intact. Players who were seeing the seals displayed over the last fortnight AND even checking them by clicking through, would have absolutely no idea that ANYTHING untoward had happened if they were not in the "industry loop". It has taken MICROGAMING to act by yanking the licence that has made it clear to ALL players that the casinos have gone under - it is impossible to deposit!
When attempting to launch banking, all it says is that the option to deposit is "restricted", and to contact CS. Well, there is no-one there in CS to reply, Emails get the autoreceipt, but no reply. There is NOTHING to tell such players WTF is going on UNTIL they spot these debates in the forum.

eCogra can do little about the casinos having continued to display the eCogra seals for the past two weeks, but it was entirely THEIR FAULT that they linked to VALID CERTIFICATES, rather than a notification that the seals were invalid.
After seeing how serious this non-compliance was, I was moving back to being a supporter of eCogra, but this has now pushed me back to being a critic again. They have done FAR LESS than they could have done to prevent their seal being misused by this group while it had been revoked, and this lapse was allowed to continue for 2 WEEKS while this crisis evolved. Where was "player protection" here?

Their will be players who will now think eCogra had indeed sat back and "did nothing", and had this blow up in their faces. These will be the significant proportion that do NOT participate in fora, and simply see the seal, and maybe even go so far as to click through to view the certificate. For the last 2 weeks, this check would have been misleading players into believing that these casinos were STILL "safe and fair", and the first they would have known was the loss of the deposit option, or withdrawal instant payments, and the complete lack of any life in CS.

 

[Jody Nustedt]

Oh dear!
eCogra can do little about the casinos having continued to display the eCogra seals for the past two weeks, but it was entirely THEIR FAULT that they linked to VALID CERTIFICATES, rather than a notification that the seals were invalid.

Agree completely. Removal of the seals is a major issue that should have been properly managed, especially as we now know (and assume they did before) that it was due to major financial issues rather than a trivial reason.

 

[jetset]

I've just been in email contact with Andrew Beveridge (and btw that's a course any of you here can also take - he always responds) and he tells me that on three different occasions this operator has been told to remove the "Safe and Fair" seal images.

Clearly this is being ignored.

Never fear, the certificates are being disconnected.

 

[jetset]

Quite remarkable how everyone has this 20/20 hindsight LOL!

And I still see little if any comment being directed at Tusk here - it's really quite incredible.

 

[dominique]

And I still see little if any comment being directed at Tusk here - it's really quite incredible.

Lol, yes, I popped in to see player experiences with withdrawals and find the thread is all about ecogra still!

I find the games are disabled, deposits are disabled, and withdrawals are enabled.

Casino Action has meanwhile apparently entered liquidation. I have no idea what the original source of that is, but it's been announced at CAP and their CAP certification has been removed also.

It would look pretty bad for Microgaming not to pay players. It's their time to shine as the most responsible software company.

So far so good, they have kept track of the casino reserves and they acted when the reserves got too low. Not seen that from other software companies.

 

[Professor]

As far as I know players will be able to withdraw their funds and Microgaming is going to ensure players are made whole.

Affiliates and Media Channels on the other hand are direct marketing agents and are not guaranteed payment at this time. Our staff was informed that currently there are no plans for them to be paid.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I've just been in email contact with Andrew Beveridge (and btw that's a course any of you here can also take - he always responds) and he tells me that on three different occasions this operator has been told to remove the "Safe and Fair" seal images.

Clearly this is being ignored.

Never fear, the certificates are being disconnected.

Too little, too late. With THREE requests being needed, it should have been clear that there was little intention to comply with the request. eCogra should have disconnected the certificates straight away, and not relied on the casino's owners complying with the request.

Tusk certainly DO look very, very, bad over this, the ONLY communication we have seen from then is an assurance that this was a "minor administrative matter", that would be resolved in "a couple of days". Tusk should have known full well how serious this was, but seemed to choose to trade through the last two weeks, perhaps in an effort to trade their way out of the problem without disrupting the flow of deposits. If they KNEW they were technically insolvent while trading, they have acted ILLEGALLY, and the Australian authorities should be all over then. Kahnawake also seemed to be "asleep at the wheel" during this last two weeks, no hint of THEM looking into this sudden removal of eCogra seals.

It took MICROGAMING to bring this to a head, once they pulled the licence, Tusk no longer had the option to bluff their way through this, and Microgaming probably realised that they had no choice because this technically insolvent group had mentioned liquidation in industry circles, which would expose Microgaming to the risks involved with player's funds.

eCogra sounded the alert, but they got lucky. If it wasn't for a routine site inspection, they too would have been caught completely unawares by this, and this would have looked VERY bad indeed for them. eCogra need to ensure that they have procedures in place that DON'T leave it to a routine inspection to unearth such an impending disaster again.

While it is claimed that withdrawals will be processed, there is NO ONE AT HOME to respond to players. Who is supposed to be guiding players through what they SHOULD be doing, or not doing, right now; request a withdrawal, or leave funds in their accounts for Microgaming to resolve.

 

[RobWin]

"Sigh"....

 

[paul02085]

I am curious as to whether this is a symptom of a sick industry (i.e. post US leaving the market) or if it was caused by weak management as Dominique says.

It seems to me that a group like this who had been around and whos casinos had good reputations would not find itself in a position like this simply from weak management.

I could much more easily see this occuring if the business was crippled by the US withdrawal and finally came crashing down. If this is the reason it is a scary thought as to how solid the whole industry really is.

Makes me even moreso than before want to play at just a very few sites.

 

[bonustreak]

Jon was awesome of course but when Rakesh and then Trish left that is when everything started going down hill in my opinion, such a shame. At this point my players being paid out is my concern they come first. I agree I believe Micro will payout these players. As far as affiliates go anytime another set of casinos went down the company taking over has paid the affiliates as well what they were due. I guess we just hope a decent media management company take over them, I would hate to see someone like the clowns that ran Hype and Hippojo snatch them up.