SUSPENSION OF eCOGRA SEALS

[jetset]

LOL - talking of sensitive nerves and touchiness you seem to have a somewhat short fuse yourself, Lots0!

If anyone needs to read more carefully I suggest it may be you, starting with the indirect nature of the Ongame, 888.com and MGS involvement in the eCOGRA operational structure as outlined earlier in this thread - the "leaders" at eCOGRA are the independent directors, surely?

Do you have a problem with the credentials of those leaders? How would you have set eCOGRA up, bearing in mind that funding is a necessary evil for this sort of non-government, international initiative and that three otherwise competing software companies are involved?

Judging by your comments earlier in this thread you don't appear to be at odds with the concept of payments for professional business services rendered by eCOGRA to operators regarding responsible gambling, monitoring, reviews, CRM and other business consulting and dispute handling.

That being the case why is there a problem for you with set-up funding by the three founding turnkey providers who are not in direct control of the outfit?

And btw, please take a moment to shake off your own chip - noone's accused you of being anti-eCOGRA, although I probably wouldn't consider you as a strong supporter either

 

[lots0]

Before this thread I was neutral about Ecogra, but no longer.

I have went back over and looked very closely at Ecogra, their members and their actions or lack of them, because of this thread.

...noone's accused you of being anti-eCOGRA...

Well I guess now they can.

 

[RobWin]

On eCOGRAs Home Page you can see written on the Pic I attached below where they say:

"Ensuring proper and transparent monitoring of approved online casinos and poker rooms"

and then the first paragraph on their homepage plainly states:

eCOGRA, a non-profit organization, is the independent standards authority of the online gaming industry, specifically overseeing fair gaming, player protection and responsible operator conduct. The function that eCOGRA performs protects those who engage in online gaming where it is lawful.

I believe the statement that eCOGRA makes saying "transparent monitoring" maybe has a different meaning to eCOGRA than it does to the player community because the player community I have seen over the past couple of years regarding eCOGRA does not see most of their actions as transparent, seems more and more each time something comes up it is more like "Cloak & Dagger" toward the player community that it is "Transparent" as this thread proves, as we all still don't know what the reason was for pulling the seals...now someone please explain to me how I am supposed to view that action by eCOGRA as "Transparent"

I think as far as eCOGRAs credibility goes with the player community that they could greatly improve this by actually being more "Transparent" about their actions toward casinos and player disputes. And as eCOGRA states themselves "specifically overseeing fair gaming, player protection and responsible operator conduct" they could definitely be a little more forthright toward the player community by communicating their actions more clear and a little less "Cloak & Dagger" style would do more than just a little to show the player community that they really do have our best interests at heart...

 

[jetset]

That's constructive criticism which I think should be emailed to eCOGRA as a genuine player opinion worth noting, Rob.

But I also hope you would acknowledge that through its website (often quoted extensively by critics) and regular press releases, statistics and newsletters, the organisation does try to communicate its affairs.

Whilst not disagreeing with your assertion that transparency is of paramount importance when a seal is suspended or withdrawn, I would also suggest that as a corporate entity eCOGRA does not have quite the same latitude as the rest of us who inhabit these message boards. I imagine it could be legally pursued and anything disclosed therefore has to be cautiously considered, especially if there is an NDA in place, or if the final results of an investigation have not yet been signed off.

If there is an ND clause, I would suggest that needs to be removed from any commitments as a policy, as one of the key purposes of suspending the seals (as I see it) must be to not only get a casino back into compliance, but to prevent players getting screwed by any outfit that is not complying with the eGAPs, which were originally designed to protect the player.

By notifying the public of the suspensions, that is to some extent achieved, I suppose but as we have seen in this thread there is additionally a demand for detail on the reasons for the withdrawal of the seals and that clearly needs to be addressed.

This whole issue needs to be finalised quickly in my view, because casino reputations are on the line here, not to mention the impact of a seals suspension on business for affiliates and at Casino Action, where players will naturally be cautious after a serious move such as this.

 

[jetset]

Before this thread I was neutral about Ecogra, but no longer.

I have went back over and looked very closely at Ecogra, their members and their actions or lack of them, because of this thread.

Well I guess now they can.

I would hardly term your posts neutral. But that's your opinion on eCOGRA and your prerogative, Lots0....in the same way as it is mine to offer an opposing view for those with an open mind to consider, too.

So we agree to disagree. It's all good.

Edited to add one more fact here. Any turnkey provider that is prepared and capable of meeting eCOGRA's member acceptance requirements can apply - this is not an exclusive "club" of three major softwares.

It's a pity more of the big companies don't put their support, and that of any of their licensees prepared to commit to its ideals, behind this initiative but I guess some have already invested heavily in respected national licensing and regulatory jurisdictions like Alderney and prefer not to join competing companies in an alternative regime.

 

[lots0]

I would hardly term your posts neutral.

This is not the first time you have misinterpreted/misrepresented what I have written, but it will be the last time.

 

[dominique]

Geez, I am yet to see one post that in any way involves eCOGRA that doesn't turn into a long debate.

IMO, there is no perfect industry guard.

I'd rather have one with blemishes than none.

 

[lots0]

Jetset....

 

[Casinomeister]

Since this thread seems to have derailed a bit into a pro-eCOGRA/con-eCOGRA back and forth debate, I'm going to attempt to get this back on track.

Seals were removed because of some administrative problem. This problem was supposed to have been taken care of within a couple of days. Yet no one is saying anything, which I find a bit unnerving.

It's been a week now and there has apparently been no progress. Taking this into account, I'm removing this group from the accredited list until I'm comfortable that everything is kosher. I'd rather error on the side of safety than putting players at risk.

 

[RobWin]

That's constructive criticism which I think should be emailed to eCOGRA as a genuine player opinion worth noting, Rob.

But I also hope you would acknowledge that through its website (often quoted extensively by critics) and regular press releases, statistics and newsletters, the organisation does try to communicate its affairs.

Thanks Jet....Oh yea, I absolutely agree with you on that point Jetset, that "the organisation does try to communicate its affairs"... I would just like to see a little more of what I would deem transparent communication along those lines and also just a bit faster too, and I personally believe that that would help to suffice the player community to actually see the benefit that eCOGRA is to this industry....

Whilst not disagreeing with your assertion that transparency is of paramount importance when a seal is suspended or withdrawn, I would also suggest that as a corporate entity eCOGRA does not have quite the same latitude as the rest of us who inhabit these message boards. I imagine it could be legally pursued and anything disclosed therefore has to be cautiously considered, especially if there is an NDA in place, or if the final results of an investigation have not yet been signed off.

If there is an ND clause, I would suggest that needs to be removed from any commitments as a policy, as one of the key purposes of suspending the seals (as I see it) must be to not only get a casino back into compliance, but to prevent players getting screwed by any outfit that is not complying with the eGAPs, which were originally designed to protect the player.

Well you are definitely right on, on that point Jet as I see the ND if there is one as not being transparent at all and I would certainly hope that this is not the case....

By notifying the public of the suspensions, that is to some extent achieved, I suppose but as we have seen in this thread there is additionally a demand for detail on the reasons for the withdrawal of the seals and that clearly needs to be addressed.

And the sooner the better in my opinion which I also believe would show the "Player Protection" aspect that eCOGRA states they uphold which would also better their credibility toward the player community IMHO...

This whole issue needs to be finalised quickly in my view, because casino reputations are on the line here, not to mention the impact of a seals suspension on business for affiliates and at Casino Action, where players will naturally be cautious after a serious move such as this.

 

[Mousey]

Since this thread seems to have derailed a bit into a pro-eCOGRA/con-eCOGRA back and forth debate, I'm going to attempt to get this back on track.

Seals were removed because of some administrative problem. This problem was supposed to have been taken care of within a couple of days. Yet no one is saying anything, which I find a bit unnerving.

It's been a week now and there has apparently been no progress. Taking this into account, I'm removing this group from the accredited list until I'm comfortable that everything is kosher. I'd rather error on the side of safety than putting players at risk.

I was wondering when we might get a 'briefing' and thought they were taking too long. (I didn't ask about it yet because I thought I was merely experiencing my usual paranoia. )

 

[peteyweestro]

this really sucks because music hall has been my favorite casino for a long time, although some rivals and 3 dice are catching up fast

 

[jetset]

Jetset....

Huh?

Ahhhh, I see.

Don't bother answering the "huh?", thanks - I've just opened my emailed copy of your original comment. If you can't debate an issue in a mature and disciplined fashion, don't waste your time or mine.

 

[RobWin]

Anybody heard anything out of eCOGRA yet...it's been quite a while now...

 

[Professor]

My guess is that "Administrative Issues" is the polite way of saying "Accounting Issues".

You gotta pay your taxes if you want to fly the flag.

It does take money to operate any organziation and members often have to provide financial support to make the venture possible.

Unfortunately many operators are facing increased financial pressures this year and are looking to reduce expenses wherever possible. They are also settling debts much later then usual so that leads to "Administrative Issues" also.

 

[jetset]

Press statement just out from Microgaming this evening:

QUOTE:

Company Statement:

'Microgaming announces that it has terminated its software licence with Tusk Investment Corporation - with immediate effect, after having received Tusk's notification of its plans to put the Company into liquidation.

Microgaming is presently gathering all facts related to this matter and will provide further announcements as and when information becomes available.'

About Tusk

Tusk Investment Corporation Limited operates a number of casino sites and poker rooms:

Casinos:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Challenge Casino, Golden Reef Casino, Music Hall Casino, Nostalgia Casino, UK Casino Club; Big Casino

Poker Rooms

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Battlefield Poker, Royal Card Club, Red Nines, Arctic Poker, Raw Poker, Poker.ie, Daily Poker, Flush Draw Poker, Will Bet Poker, Bet Road Poker, Grand Central Poker, Off The Rail Poker, Privy Poker, Berserk Poker, Atomik Poker, Dave's Poker Room, Hetman Poker, Hot Pepper Poker, Poker Seas, TilttAA Poker, Loose Games Poker, CPT Gaming Poker, Ice Bear Poker, GoHard Poker, Caya Poker, Mr Urban Poker, Poker Sweden, Euro Poker Dream

UNQUOTE

From this it appears that the "non-compliance" issue had to do with the casino group failing to maintain the ratio of reserves to obligations.

And it must be pretty serious if the casino group is contemplating going into liquidation.

I'm sure we'll be hearing more from everyone involved in this over the coming days.

 

[Mousey]

OMG... Am I overreacting, or is this really bad??

 

[Jody Nustedt]

That's very surprising news. Those casinos were some of the first ones I ever played, and I used to promote CPS years ago as well when I ran my own sites.

Hope everyone's money is safe.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Unthinkable worst case scenario.

This is the unthinkable worst case scenario.
I have just noticed that deposit options are unavailable, and no games will load, although it is currently possible to log into the accounts.

What is truly astonishing is that the "business as usual" scenario is STILL continuing, with all advertising running fine. I played on Monday with no issues, and there has been NO NOTIFICATION WHATSOEVER TO PLAYERS.

Luckily, I got my last 200 out this morning from UK Casino Club, and only "scraps" and unclaimed comps remain. I also withdrew a 2000 hit earlier on Monday.

eCogra clearly found something EXTREMELY SERIOUS INDEED, and it now seems their actions were rather mild, rather than draconian.

This looks similar to the fate that befell the old captain Cooks group, and shows just how SERIOUS the situation has to be in this industry if this group can go from winning awards to going bust within a month

The repercussions could be serious, what else is over the horizon that we players are totally in the dark about!!!!!

 

[Self Made]

That's about 28 online poker rooms, including some relatively popular and reputable ones like Battlefield and Red Nines.

Hasn't Microgaming covered player balances when things like this happened with their licensees in the past?

 

[vinylweatherman]

In the short while since my last post, I have accessed my accounts to take a note of remaining balances. They are just "scraps" though. However, in this short time I have seen the whole infrastructure seize up. I was earlier able to check my comps balance, yet not redeem. Now, I cannot log into anything to collect any statement information. As well as this, it seems the links to the home pages, and more importantly, customer support have been taken out within the last half hour or so.

It could be of course, that many have read this announcement elsewhere and are besieging the servers to check and hopefully extract any remaining balances.

While MG cover player's money, this probably does NOT extend to unredeemed comps and bonus balances, and players have been given NO OPPORTUNITY WHATSOEVER to "advance plan" for this by putting their accounts in order. This will hit the rest of the industry VERY HARD INDEED, as the next time something like this happens, players will NOT have any degree of trust that this is just an "asministrative issue" that will "not impact players directly". They will go into "disaster mode" at the outset, and remove any balances and complete any outstanding WR. They will be VERY reluctant to continue depositing while "investigations continue".

Players like myself were unknowingly taking a HUGE RISK this week by continuing to support this group while they were SUPPOSEDLY sorting this "minor" issue out, yet behind the scenes it was a MAJOR DISASTER. It is only LUCK that I got my 2200 out earlier, as I could have faced an indefinite wait while the liquidation process continued.

If casinos STILL expect me to leave balances "on account" for a few days waiting for the next opportunity to play and compete, they are even less likely to see me do this than I was already, and even I usually withdrew if I was not intending to play the very next day, and had no WR restrictions on my balance.

Now, who will be next, Casino Rewards with any luck, they have been very quiet of late, not the usual thrust of weekly promotions this last month

 

[dominique]

Microgaming is likely to pay players and affiliates. IMO they are also likely to continue the casinos. Let's see what happens.

At this time some of the games are not working and there is a notice to come back later.

I assume that indicates the casinos are gradually being moved, and that in turn indicates they are not being closed. Ohterwise they would just close them, period.

Just speculation but logical.

I also happen to know there are buy offers on the table, so this may go smoother than we think.

I hope so anyway.

I very much doubt that this is happening elsewhere, it is due to operator issues specific to this group. I.e. two numbnuts recently started running things and screwed up royally.

 

[Mallorca]

I withdrew my balance after reading this thread.The instant withdrawals option is not available so I had not choice and now Ill have to wait until they`ll process it.I hope to get paid.I have been playing at Golden Reef for almost 5 years and never had an issue with them.Will they pay now?.What do you think?.

 

[TDTAT]

Press statement just out from Microgaming this evening:

QUOTE:

Company Statement:

'Microgaming announces that it has terminated its software licence with Tusk Investment Corporation - with immediate effect, after having received Tusk's notification of its plans to put the Company into liquidation.

Microgaming is presently gathering all facts related to this matter and will provide further announcements as and when information becomes available.'

About Tusk

Tusk Investment Corporation Limited operates a number of casino sites and poker rooms:

Casinos:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Challenge Casino, Golden Reef Casino, Music Hall Casino, Nostalgia Casino, UK Casino Club; Big Casino

Poker Rooms

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Battlefield Poker, Royal Card Club, Red Nines, Arctic Poker, Raw Poker, Poker.ie, Daily Poker, Flush Draw Poker, Will Bet Poker, Bet Road Poker, Grand Central Poker, Off The Rail Poker, Privy Poker, Berserk Poker, Atomik Poker, Dave's Poker Room, Hetman Poker, Hot Pepper Poker, Poker Seas, TilttAA Poker, Loose Games Poker, CPT Gaming Poker, Ice Bear Poker, GoHard Poker, Caya Poker, Mr Urban Poker, Poker Sweden, Euro Poker Dream

UNQUOTE

From this it appears that the "non-compliance" issue had to do with the casino group failing to maintain the ratio of reserves to obligations.

And it must be pretty serious if the casino group is contemplating going into liquidation.

I'm sure we'll be hearing more from everyone involved in this over the coming days.

I take it from this and from VWM's post that players should
be instructed to cash in or play any balances, comp points and ect?

I am doing the happy dance that I never promoted this group heavily.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I take it from this and from VWM's post that players should
be instructed to cash in or play any balances, comp points and ect?

I am doing the happy dance that I never promoted this group heavily.

It seems that it is now too late. I tried and failed to cash in my last 20 of comps (I was then going to withdraw the 20).
The instant withdrawals were working 12 hours ago, but it seems that there was no intention to give players ANY time to clear out their balances before the announcement. I suspect this was not a sudden decision, and more could have been done to protect players from the pain of having to WAIT for their money while the wheels of liquidation, and sale of the casinos to a new buyer, takes place.

I just hope they don't get sold to Casino Rewards