So Sick - Police Shootings

[Cleveland]

Yes I'm about to rant. I've been holding it in as much as possible other than speaking with wife from time to time. But I'm just done. I'm sick of turning on the news, or pulling up yahoo and hearing about all of the big bad power hunger thug police officers.

I think or would like to think, but maybe I'm wrong but whatever....I think I have a pretty strong compassion / caring for human life.

but you know what the common denominator in damn near most incidents: Resisting arrest in one form or another. Latest incident on the news is a drug dealer that ran from the police, then tussled with police, and put his hands in his pocket (possibly to throw out the pill bottle). Well I'm sorry boo freaking hoo. I'm so sorry that this or any other incident has happened. Truly I am but damnit the fact reminds, if you didn't resist, didn't run, didn't put your hands in your pocket, and followed instructions you would be alive.

Now have there been incidents where a police officer was completely in the wrong and should be charged in a citizens death. Of course. Hell Dallas, Texas has almost 4,000 police officers.....3,500 or so to be more exact (not sure if that has changed but it's the last stat I remind from a few years back). That's ONE city in ONE state. Did you really think none of them would make a mistake? Did you really think none of them are just as morally corrupt as some of this worlds citizens? Every profession has people in it that make bad choices, or turn for the worst, and police are no different. They are the same as you!

^ Now those incidents I just spoke about. You know what they are few and far between. But you want to know how many police officers were killed from gunfire in 2014 ? ..... 46 of them (can maybe subtract a few for friendly fire / training incidents) .... How many were actually shot in 2013 ? 31 .... and with 2011 being the worst with 73 shot, followed by 2007 with 70 shot. And all incident resulting in the death of the officer. Which by the way every year since at least 2004 at least 50 or more officers were shot and killed...every year....every year. (with 2 years at 30). Hell protest for them! Stand with them! And you wonder why they feel it's us against them? Because they are the only ones who seem to give a crap about each other. Blue wall of silence....hmm I wonder why.

And do you know how many incidents those officers actually take chances on every day? Case in point. Officer and myself making an arrest of a guy who refused to exit his vehicle. I grab him to drag him out, he resist, I grab his hands as best I could, he doesn't have much time to reach for anything, we later find a gun in the front of his waist band (inside his pants). Which by the way, fighting isn't that easy as the public seems to think it is. It's fairly hard to subdue a 100 lb women that doesn't want handcuffs put on her if the fight is in her. You get in trouble if you taze, you get in trouble if you pepper spray, you get in trouble if you use verbal judo...don't want to be too offensive, you get in trouble if you touch them too firmly, you get in trouble if you looked at them wrong, you get in trouble for not hurting them, you get in trouble simply for being alive, you get in trouble for getting out of your damn bed in the morning.......when in the hell did we become supermen / women? Last I checked I was human.

So yes they are a bit on edge. Follow the damn commands.

 

[Zabier]

This is obviously a very sensitive issue and being from Wales I will try and offer my thoughts in a clear way as possible.

Firstly, I agree that police officers do a fantastic job given the threats they face every day. My ex-housemate is a police officer so I hear some horrible stories and I am amazed that they have the self discipline to avoid losing their cool more. However, I guess that is part of their training and why they are police officers, not vigilantes.

Secondly, even my ex-housemate will admit that despite there being 99% police officers who do their job with the best of intentions and incredibly well, there are that 1% (probably even less than that) who don't play by the rules and do use it as a chance to bully, assault, and manipulate. The Eric Garner and Michael Brown cases I cannot comment on too much because I do not know much about the cases. However, I agree with your comment about resisting arrest but at the same time you have to ask questions when one of the victims is shot more than several times and in the other instance the victim is heard crying that he can't breathe whilst in an illegal chokehold.

I would need to research both cases a lot more before I could deliver a more educated view but I certainly don't think every police officer is innocent. That said, I don't think every alleged criminal is innocent either! What a mess.

 

[rockycatt]

can you tell me what the average age and M/F sex theses people are that resist just wondering , so are youth centers a help
with police taking part like a in counseling capacity

so we all can breath easier RC

P S good jobs for drop outs ,investing in our youth

 

[The Dude]

Good post. I can see how people are upset at the use of deadly force - especially with the last two incidents. But I just don't get how these are connected to race. I honestly don't think these white cops took down these two individuals because they were black. They reacted by reflex - adrenalin kicked in and they responded.

For the choke hold, in my opinion the cop should have loosened up on the guy because you just don't know in what condition the guy was in, and choke holds can be dangerous. They aren't called choke holds for nothing.

But in each case, guilt needs to be properly dished out. If you reach for a cop's gun, what do you think the result will be? If you are told to put your hands behind your back and refuse, what do you think will happen next?

 

[Zabier]

Good post. I can see how people are upset at the use of deadly force - especially with the last two incidents. But I just don't get how these are connected to race. I honestly don't think these white cops took down these two individuals because they were black. They reacted by reflex - adrenalin kicked in and they responded.

For the choke hold, in my opinion the cop should have loosened up on the guy because you just don't know in what condition the guy was in, and choke holds can be dangerous. They aren't called choke holds for nothing.

But in each case, guilt needs to be properly dished out. If you reach for a cop's gun, what do you think the result will be? If you are told to put your hands behind your back and refuse, what do you think will happen next?

I think that is common throughout Western society especially. This refusal to take responsibility for your own actions. If someone trips over a paving stone then you're more likely to hear them say "I'm going to sue the council for not sorting that out!" as opposed to "I'm so clumsy, I should have watched where I was walking". Bad example, but hopefully you get what I mean.

 

[spoton]

delete

 

[spoton]

The US needs to do something about their gun politics. Getting shot for putting your hands in the pocket or whatever is obviously caused by the policeman being piss afraid of the subject pulling a gun, and I would be aswell if I were there knowing how many guns that was around.

Making it into a racial thing is just stupid though.

 

[weesie]

I think it is a sad situation all around.

Like so many other peoples' comments that I have read, when reading other news articles about such incidents ......"Why did they not listen?".... "Why did they run?"...... "Why did they resist?".......

The list of questions goes on and on.

I watch the news and read it too. So many stories are "slanted" to get more sympathy or supporters, either by the victims family or the cops..... with the press running with their every comment...... How do you know just WHAT to believe?

I do feel for the family of the guy in New York City.......... I mean he was just selling illegal cigarettes........ I think the taxes in NYC on one pack is somewhere around $5....... seriously? $5?


Then this morning, on the news, I heard that this guy has been arrested some 29 times........... for basically the same thing. The complaints were from area businesses, saying crack heads would come to him wanting cigs, therefore drawing crack heads into the area.

It was also said, the video capture was not complete from the beginning.......... so who knows what happened prior to the start of filming.

I wouldn't want to be a cop............ it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of job.

So, I will close my comment by repeating how I started it:


I think it is a sad situation all around.

 

[rena35]

Very touchy subject. There are two sides to every story. I read about a 12 year old that was shot by a police officer who was already fired from a different dept. He did poorly on his fire arms training. The kid was playing with a toy gun at a park when he was shot. How about the little kid that got a flash bang grande thrown into his crib while he slept ? My brother in law is a retired Sheriff deputy and even he agrees that some (not all) officers can be loose cannons and things like this occur. As far as race, yes it is true that profiling does happen (IMO). I was stopped myself one day after work and given a ticket for a tag light being out. I did not know what a tag light was (at that time i was only 19 and just started driving) and the officer said, open your trunk i will show you what a tag light is . I was driving an Oldsmobile Cutless that my dad restored as part of his car projects. He also restored a Ford Ferrling(sorry about my spelling) and a 1960 Mercedes Benz among other cars.My car was in the shop. I might add that my father who is well over 60 has never been involved with the law and has worked at the same company since he was 18 years old. In my opinion racial profiling does exist but not every case is the same. Sometimes the police have good cause and sometimes they do not. If my life was in danger and i felt threatened i would protect myself also. There are a lot of police officer's who were good cops who got shot and killed.Each individual case has to be reviewed and not just clumped in together.

 

[Cleveland]

can you tell me what the average age and M/F sex theses people are that resist just wondering , so are youth centers a help with police taking part like a in counseling capacity
so we all can breath easier RC

P S good jobs for drop outs,investing in our youth

Couldn't tell you the average age but I'm sure someone has the stats on it. If I had to guess it would be mostly young males any where from 17 or so to 29 or so. But as I said I'm just guessing.

Also I'm sure some youth facilities are great but speaking for the ones I know of out here....Not so much. I would rather send a kid to prison than some of these facilities.

For the choke hold, in my opinion the cop should have loosened up on the guy because you just don't know in what condition the guy was in, and choke holds can be dangerous. They aren't called choke holds for nothing.

Agree. For the life of me I'm not sure why he didn't. Plenty of officers were there. I understand why he went for it, in order to affect the takedown, but not sure why he didn't losen it. Been there plenty of times, and many officers typically (out here) will tell you, "hey losen up a bit" assuming the fight isn't out of control. Which from the video it wasn't. So I don't know what he was thinking.

Very touchy subject. There are two sides to every story. I read about a 12 year old that was shot by a police officer who was already fired from a different dept. He did poorly on his fire arms training. The kid was playing with a toy gun at a park when he was shot.

I'm actually glad you brought that up. Because it's huge problem. My question is why do parents allow their kids to possess, or buy for them....guns that look realistic? Citizens called the police on the 12 year old because they thought the gun was real BUT might be fake. Think about that for a second. They called because they thought it was real. How do you think the officer feels? The citizen is in a comfortable position to decide and think about it, but for the officer you don't have much time to decide. We get calls all the time about subjects with a gun and pointing it at people, then get there and find out it was fake, but looked real. That's just bad waiting to happen. If you google the TV show cops in reference to that recent incident in which a cameraman was accidentally shot by an officer, you will see where the guy they were shooting at was trying to rob a wendys with a toy gun that looked real. They have pictures of the gun on the internet next to the real thing.

Although I don't agree with how the officers handled the approach of the 12 year old kid. I just was speaking in regards to the toy gun. In terms of the incident, officers should have approached from a large distance, and at worst made a tactical approach. Not freaking pull up right on side of the kid. Even if you don't know exactly which subject it is or where he is, you still try to park for enough from the incident location (with in reason) to take a survey of the area, and choose your approach...and defiantly don't go speeding up to the location as shown in the video.

 

[rockycatt]

Couldn't tell you the average age but I'm sure someone has the stats on it. If I had to guess it would be mostly young males any where from 17 or so to 29 or so. But as I said I'm just guessing.

Also I'm sure some youth facilities are great but speaking for the ones I know of out here....Not so much. I would rather send a kid to prison than some of these facilities.




Agree. For the life of me I'm not sure why he didn't. Plenty of officers were there. I understand why he went for it, in order to affect the takedown, but not sure why he didn't losen it. Been there plenty of times, and many officers typically (out here) will tell you, "hey losen up a bit" assuming the fight isn't out of control. Which from the video it wasn't. So I don't know what he was thinking.




I'm actually glad you brought that up. Because it's huge problem. My question is why do parents allow their kids to possess, or buy for them....guns that look realistic? Citizens called the police on the 12 year old because they thought the gun was real BUT might be fake. Think about that for a second. They called because they thought it was real. How do you think the officer feels? The citizen is in a comfortable position to decide and think about it, but for the officer you don't have much time to decide. We get calls all the time about subjects with a gun and pointing it at people, then get there and find out it was fake, but looked real. That's just bad waiting to happen. If you google the TV show cops in reference to that recent incident in which a cameraman was accidentally shot by an officer, you will see where the guy they were shooting at was trying to rob a wendys with a toy gun that looked real. They have pictures of the gun on the internet next to the real thing.

Although I don't agree with how the officers handled the approach of the 12 year old kid. I just was speaking in regards to the toy gun. In terms of the incident, officers should have approached from a large distance, and at worst made a tactical approach. Not freaking pull up right on side of the kid. Even if you don't know exactly which subject it is or where he is, you still try to park for enough from the incident location (with in reason) to take a survey of the area, and choose your approach...and defiantly don't go speeding up to the location as shown in the video.

this is your observation and I do not doubt it my opinion this is a good starting place for elected officals to weed the garden so to speak [[ I would rather send a kid to prison than some of these facilities.]]

I think we have to be naive to think that the elected officials can ever expect this job of mentoring to be finished . when there on the job I for one want more than the as a whole are giving , career politics is some thing that needs policing in it self
my .02 cent but wishing you the best RC

 

[suzecat]

Very touchy subject. There are two sides to every story. I read about a 12 year old that was shot by a police officer who was already fired from a different dept. He did poorly on his fire arms training. The kid was playing with a toy gun at a park when he was shot. How about the little kid that got a flash bang grande thrown into his crib while he slept ? My brother in law is a retired Sheriff deputy and even he agrees that some (not all) officers can be loose cannons and things like this occur. As far as race, yes it is true that profiling does happen (IMO). I was stopped myself one day after work and given a ticket for a tag light being out. I did not know what a tag light was (at that time i was only 19 and just started driving) and the officer said, open your trunk i will show you what a tag light is . I was driving an Oldsmobile Cutless that my dad restored as part of his car projects. He also restored a Ford Ferrling(sorry about my spelling) and a 1960 Mercedes Benz among other cars.My car was in the shop. I might add that my father who is well over 60 has never been involved with the law and has worked at the same company since he was 18 years old. In my opinion racial profiling does exist but not every case is the same. Sometimes the police have good cause and sometimes they do not. If my life was in danger and i felt threatened i would protect myself also. There are a lot of police officer's who were good cops who got shot and killed.Each individual case has to be reviewed and not just clumped in together.

There is much more to the story. The 12 year old had a toy gun THAT LOOKED REAL. Several people observed the boy in the park pointing the gun at people and they called 911 to report it. When police arrived they told the child to drop the gun and raise his hands. He ignored them and pointed the gun at the cops. One of them shot the boy, who died.

 

[paul7388]

Its sad to see a 12 year old boy getting shot dead.

But in the end he was carrying a gun that looked real and refused to put it down and pointed it towards the police so guess the officer had no choice but to shoot.

The main problem is that they live in a country where guns are freely owned and the chances of a 12 year old having a real gun are too high to take a chance on. Over here 12 year olds are usually way by the stage of playing with toy guns and im guessing its the same over there so the police are not going to take chances.

Sad thing is that as long as you live in a country with so many guns and armed police then this sort of thing will happen again and again. Just have to look at the incident a few months back where a 9 year old girl accidentally killed the instructor with an uzi. How damned irresponsible of both the instructor and the girls parents to let a girl that age near such a powerful weapon.

 

[rockycatt]

link to the shooting

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if this exact act of police work is needed do orders come down from the chain of command

 

[bigjohn]

I'm glad somebody opened a thread like this.

As far as I am concerned the police in this Country need a lot of work. Did any of the police officers involved in the Eric Garner arrest, or any police involved in any arrest for that matter, realize or even care that when you are kneeling on somebody's head, forcing their face into the concrete and four other guys have their knees in your ribs and all you limbs pinned that it is practically impossible to comply with their request to put your hands behind your back?

Or do they realize or even care that if you "stop resisting" when you are in that position your ribs will probably break or that your teeth will smash out on the concrete?

The Mike Brown case went about how it should have, if you are a big guy and you punch a cop in the face you are probably going to get shot. As far as the Eric Garner case the police can try to rationalize it all they want but the fact remains that they killed a man, who by most accounts was a caring harmless man, with their over-zealousness. Sure, Mr. Garner was a petty criminal and so are the vast majority of police.

When we were kids we used to buy fireworks from a local cop who would confiscate them from other kids and sell them, somebody probably should have knelt on his face for a little while. Another cop I know used to bring us weed that he confiscated and never turned in and I am sure these are not isolated incidents.

A friend of mine got arrested for DWI and, while he was restrained and being processed, the police were taunting him to the point where he became agitated and the police, fearing he might get his hand free, jumped all over him to pin his face to the ground and during that incident one of the officers sprained his wrist and they charged my friend with assaulting a police officer. Luckily for my friend there were other witnesses and the Judge eventually threw the entire case, including the DWI, out.

I know of many other similar stories, this crap happens way too often.

Are there good cops out there?

I'm sure there are many but there is also way too many with a chip on their shoulder who should not be in a position to destroy, or take, peoples lives. Arrest them, process them, jail them if needed but don't kill them. If you can't do that you should not be a police officer.

 

[rockycatt]

simply what john said ive witnessed up close for 50 years my wife's father was murdered by the locale police beaten to death[ in a jail cell] after they arrested him and after they closed the cell door for the first time he was white they were white

you see he was running for public office but not on the same platform as the boys in office

 

[Cleveland]

I'm glad somebody opened a thread like this.

As far as I am concerned the police in this Country need a lot of work. Did any of the police officers involved in the Eric Garner arrest, or any police involved in any arrest for that matter, realize or even care that when you are kneeling on somebody's head, forcing their face into the concrete and four other guys have their knees in your ribs and all you limbs pinned that it is practically impossible to comply with their request to put your hands behind your back?

Or do they realize or even care that if you "stop resisting" when you are in that position your ribs will probably break or that your teeth will smash out on the concrete?

The resisting shouldn't have happened in the first place, so it's not really the police concern if a subject is worried / scared that if now that they are already resisting, if they should decide to stop what might happen to them. As I've said I agree the officer should have loosened his hold on the neck but in terms of each officer being on top of you like that, it's typically to stop the resistance as quick as possible to avoid anyone getting seriously injured.

Point is most officers don't want to hurt anyone.

But back to taking up aggressive positions on a subject. The rule of thumb is "not looking for a fair fight." I would prefer to have 20 officers help me arrest someone and all of us make it home, as oppose to only two of us, and having to tussle with them. The longer the fight the more likely someone will get hurt.

In that incident you grab whatever you can, you hold down whatever you can. I don't care if it's a pinky finger. That's one less pinky finger likely to hurt someone. In the midst of using force, yes it's easy to lose track of what another officer is doing. Which is why it's so hard to recall the incident and write the report. Which is also why you typically try to only write what you did, unless you're 100% sure of what you saw.

But one thing videos don't show you is how much a person is still tensing their body. Not saying this happened. But many times a subject has been actively trying to break free from a grip, and you know if you stop holding down they will continue to fight. Not to mention the subject has already resisted, now the question is how far will they take it. Do they have a gun on them, do they have a knife? If the officer waits to see, and ends up shot, or stabbed, will any of the public protest for that dead officer?

In the end it still goes back to "don't resist in the first place." Because truth be told if an officer has to put hands on you, then I am of the mindset that he should put them on hard and fast. It's a fight at that point, and if you've been in one, you can't nicely fight someone while also fighting to stay alive. Which is what you're doing. Once it starts you don't know what will happen. So you better be treating it as such. You should be wanting to end it quickly. That's a lot different that wanting to hurt someone, or not stopping to think.

And no simply resisting arrest should not equal a death sentence but it's akin to running across a busy highway during rush hour traffic. You've just increased the chances that something stupid might happened. And in terms of numbers / stats, the sheer amount of fights that happen daily in which people resist arrest compared to people being killed by an officer is easily well under 1%. For example over 50,000 assaults on police officers happened in 2013 alone. ***Remove however many you want for those few who disgrace the badge and made up their story / report.*** Either way that's still a hell of a lot of assaults for just one year. And each incident imho could have resulted in the citizen being shot.

 

[Cleveland]

Just one other thing many don't take into account:

We acknowledge the effect being in the military or going to war has on a soldiers mindset but we don't seem to care much for what officers deal with daily. They truly see the worst mankind has to offer on a daily basis over and over. They are put into situations that could easily result in their death because they hesitated.

For some reason we say things "well they chose to protect and serve," "well if they can't do the job," as if the officer should be immune to the things around him. How many times can a person deal with something before it takes it's toll on their soul? Then you turn around and the people you were sworn to protect don't really seem to care very much about you living or dieing. You've been lied on, spit on (thankfully never happened to me, but I've seen it happen to others more than once.....lol, for some reason that was kind of funny to me...gawd those officers were pissed lol ), complained on with bs IAs opened on you, and all because someone didn't agree with a decision you made.

When you combine the pathetic media reporting, with an emotionally charged society (I've had guys challenge me simply because they are mad at something they heard an officer did in the news), and officers on edge, you end up with a flammable cocktail.

Things will continue to spiral out of control with out more acts like this:

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[rena35]

If you read the story of the 12 year old did you see the part about the officer ? There was more then one story about a 12 year old shot by police. The one i commented on said the officer did poorly in some areas of training and was also fired from a different police dept. By the way, a simple Google search will reveal a lot more incidents that have went beyond what was a simple matter. Just like a simple Google search would also reveal that some really good officer's were killed in a senseless manner. There should be something more that can be done on both sides IMO. Like Clayton said it could have probably been handled different. I have grown son's who i never let play with toy guns of any kind. I have heard of too many accidental shootings by children. I was raised around guns being from a small country town. We lived off the land for our survival. My grandparents were simple farmers owning land that is still in our family even today. I was taught about guns and how they were used. I also was taught to never point a gun at anything unless i was trying to kill it. I was shown how to hunt at 3 years old and I saw first hand, the damage a gun could do to a deer or other animal. I learned from example and experience. It is sad that some kids today are not taught that guns are not toys. Real or fake, you should never play or point guns at other people. I do believe, like i said also, not all officer's are good officer's, just like not all are bad. It is one thing that goes along with being human. It is human nature to be diverse.

 

[secret2]

I am always polite to the police when I am pulled over. I place my hands on my steering wheel , so that they see me in my side view mirror.

When they ask for my docs, I say that I have to go into my pocket book to get them. I don't argue but I do say that I thought that I was driving really well today...usually met with a slight smile.

One time I was pulled over and the police officer looked very nervous. He said he pulled me over as my van's rear tires were bald. I said yes, I was going to get new ones, soon....He asked for my docs and he was shaking so bad, his hands...he was talking on his radio and was stuttering and I felt so bad for him, but I did not understand why.

I don't know why he was nervous but I don't think that I could ever be a cop.

 

[Cleveland]

One time I was pulled over and the police officer looked very nervous. He said he pulled me over as my van's rear tires were bald. I said yes, I was going to get new ones, soon....He asked for my docs and he was shaking so bad, his hands...he was talking on his radio and was stuttering and I felt so bad for him, but I did not understand why.

He might have been in field training, so still in sort of a recruit / rookie type phase. If another officer was around watching, either in the same car or outside of it, then there was a good chance he was. But then again I guess some officers also do ride two to a car even when neither is in field training, just for safety reasons.

 

[ksech]

I have many friends who are in law enforcement. I do NOT envy them their jobs, basically I feel there isn't enough money on the face of the earth for what these people deal with on a daily basis. In my own little corner of the world, we have lost too many "young" cops in the last few years. Imagine, going to a disturbance call at a doctors' office (which happened to be right across the street from the hospital...but to no avail, the officer lost his life)...the last call of your shift. Man is disgruntled because nurse won't write him a prescription for a drug the man FEELS he needs. Police officer talks the man into a "calmer" mood, what do does man do??? Swings around , nails the cop, takes his gun and shoots him point blank. Or the officer who is on trial now for "aggressively" shooting out the tires of the car in which a person who had held hostages in a local store was trying to escape in. The person was injured when his car rammed into two patrol cars. Why is it we only piss and moan about the bad events that take place? Yes, I agree there are bad cops out there, BUT (and maybe I need to take the blinders off...but don't really think so) there are many more GOOD cops.

I used to work graveyard shift in a well known/popular 24 hour restaurant...I can attest to some of the "ugly" forms of life which come out after dark. I, for one, would NOT want to have to stop any of these individuals when they have done something wrong. Too many drug related incidents where they are carrying guns and knives hidden in their baggy clothing. Yes, they take an oath to "protect and to serve" and they take this job knowing they are putting THEIR life on the line to hopefully ensure the safety of honest people like you and me every day. There is always two sides to every story, and people need to start taking more responsibility for their actions.

End of my rant...my hat goes off to those who CHOOSE to put that uniform on every day...

 

[suzecat]

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Came across this youtube video allegedly showing Michael Brown assaulting then robbing an old black man in Ferguson, Missouri.

Does this change your opinion in any way about the shooting? Does Michael Brown still look like a "gentle giant" after seeing this video?

 

[swampwitch]

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Came across this youtube video showing Michael Brown assaulting then robbing an old black man in Ferguson, Missouri.

Does this change your opinion in any way about the shooting? Does Michael Brown still look like a "gentle giant" after seeing this video?

I know some people on this board dismiss anything Snopes-related, but they make a very good case for the person in the video NOT being Michael Brown, and for the attack not even happening in Missouri.

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[suzecat]

I know some people on this board dismiss anything Snopes-related, but they make a very good case for the person in the video NOT being Michael Brown, and for the attack not even happening in Missouri.

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[/QUOTE

This further confuses "what am I supposed to think?"

 

[Perc]

I could go on and on about my thoughts on this, but I'll do my best to sum it up and keep it as short as possible.

The race issue - awfully tired of that - the only reason it's a race issue is because of the media, and people being too lazy to think for themselves. It is quite sad that race is still a big issue, even sadder is the fact that the media plays it up as much as possible to get more viewers and sell more papers. The only thing they are doing, other than doing whatever they can to make more money with no respect for humanity, is prolonging and forcing the race issue. It's too bad that so many buy into it, rather than doing some actual thinking of their own.

Police have a very tough job, sure some are bad, but you get that with every group/race/military/religion/political party/etc/etc. People become just as racist/prejudiced with these things, they use blanket statements and judgements, and then go riot about the fact that people use blanket statements and judgements.

If a cop shoots a suspect who is posing a threat to that officer and the people around them, why does it matter what color their skin is? Do many people just assume that since a white cop shoots a black person, it's race related? Isn't that being kinda racist? I just don't understand.

People are people, assholes are assholes, both come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and colors. Look at any group and you will find stinky assholes that are making the rest look bad. If you own a company and an employee is doing a poor job and making the company look bad, you can simply fire that employee. Unfortunately you can't really do that with the assholes in your race or religion.

Can you really blame a cop, or judge them at all, for shooting a bit sooner rather than later? It's really easy to analyze everything after the fact and decide if they did the right thing or not, but try putting yourself in the same situation when you only have milliseconds to make the right choice. Sure they have training and you don't, but nobody is going to make the perfect split-second decision 100% of the time, I don't care how many years of training and experience you have.

As for these criminals that are resisting arrest and getting killed for doing so, I find it really hard to feel bad for them. If a person (especially someone who robs a store with a gun) is threatening the life of an armed and trained police officer, how do you think that person would handle you and your family if they broke in to your home or robbed the place you're working at? I would rather just not have that type of person around.

Yes some cops go rogue, and others should never be given a weapon or position of power in the first place, but it would take a really special kind of person to be a great cop for their whole career, and unfortunately demand outweighs the supply of that type of person by a long shot, all over the world.

This is just making it even more stressful and dangerous to be a cop than it already is. I can see a cop hesitating to shoot a suspect because they are a different color, and getting killed due to the hesitation. Would that ever make headlines? No, because the media would only be able to blame themselves and people in general.

I try to imagine myself in their job, or being in the military in a warzone, and man I don't think I'd last very long before becoming jaded at least, or just completely snapping. The good things these brave people do, and crap they have to go through that we never see or hear about, for months and years, and then have everyone turn on them for a momentary lapse of judgement that happened to be witnessed or caught on video... pretty harsh.

^Post was way longer than I intended, sorry - TLDR / Moral of my story: Before jumping on any bandwagon or reacting to any situation, or even opening your mouth to say something, do some actual thinking of your own first, please. Always keep in mind that the media will only report on things that they think will get more attention, and negative attention spreads faster. Oh, and racism shouldn't even be around in this day and age, but that goes back to the thinking on your own part.

 

[Cleveland]

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Came across this youtube video allegedly showing Michael Brown assaulting then robbing an old black man in Ferguson, Missouri.

Does this change your opinion in any way about the shooting? Does Michael Brown still look like a "gentle giant" after seeing this video?

First: No that isn't Michael Brown. There is suppose to be a video of him robbing an actual store owner but the video you linked isn't him.

Second: Watching the video you did link tears at my soul to a degree I can't even begin to describe. It shows a very good example of the type of people we deal with daily. What infuriates me even more so is the same wanna be thug in the video is the same cat whining and complaining about suing the police department when one of us put hands on him. I can't even begin to tell you the number of idiots who resist arrest then complain the whole way to the jail because something hurts. All of a sudden tough wanna be realizes he ain't so tough. I'm not impressed by someone who talks tough but needs his "boys" with him, and attacks someone who isn't willing or able to defend themselves. He's the same guy you can't count on when you're under fire be it oversees or homeland.

Sorry for the rant. It truly boils my blood. It took me a while just to write / re-write this in order to convey a bit of what I feel without going overboard.

Don't want an infraction <~~~~ Attempt at a joke to calm down. Just realized I'm actually shaking as I type. *sigh*

 

[jumboshrimp]

Everything needs policing! I offer my hat to all cops it's a rough world out there! I wouldn't want to do it

 

[suzecat]

First: No that isn't Michael Brown. There is suppose to be a video of him robbing an actual store owner but the video you linked isn't him.

Second: Watching the video you did link tears at my soul to a degree I can't even begin to describe. It shows a very good example of the type of people we deal with daily. What infuriates me even more so is the same wanna be thug in the video is the same cat whining and complaining about suing the police department when one of us put hands on him. I can't even begin to tell you the number of idiots who resist arrest then complain the whole way to the jail because something hurts. All of a sudden tough wanna be realizes he ain't so tough. I'm not impressed by someone who talks tough but needs his "boys" with him, and attacks someone who isn't willing or able to defend themselves. He's the same guy you can't count on when you're under fire be it oversees or homeland.

Sorry for the rant. It truly boils my blood. It took me a while just to write / re-write this in order to convey a bit of what I feel without going overboard.

Don't want an infraction <~~~~ Attempt at a joke to calm down. Just realized I'm actually shaking as I type. *sigh*

Cleveland I respect you more than I can possibly convey. I also deeply appreciate the effort you put into this post. These are things I needed to hear. In the future, I will not blindly accept any information, irregardless of its origin.

Major kudos to you and Swampwitch. :notworthy

 

[bigjohn]

I have a lot of respect for the good cops out there. The problem is there are cops like this;

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and the rest of the cops don't appear to do anything to remove them from their ranks. The 'perp' in this video could have easily died right there. Cleveland, can you tell me if the story that they left this man handcuffed all the way to the hospital even though they knew he had committed no crime is true?

I am not meaning to dump this on you but this pisses me off as much as the other video pisses you off.

 

[Cleveland]

Cleveland I respect you more than I can possibly convey. I also deeply appreciate the effort you put into this post. These are things I needed to hear. In the future, I will not blindly accept any information, irregardless of its origin.

Major kudos to you and Swampwitch. :notworthy

Thank you for saying that :yahoo: .... It brought a smile to my face.

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I have a lot of respect for the good cops out there. The problem is there are cops like this;

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and the rest of the cops don't appear to do anything to remove them from their ranks. The 'perp' in this video could have easily died right there. Cleveland, can you tell me if the story that they left this man handcuffed all the way to the hospital even though they knew he had committed no crime is true?

I am not meaning to dump this on you but this pisses me off as much as the other video pisses you off.

Yes. But that being said I too also handcuff anyone that sits in my backseat. For example even if you ask for a ride somewhere I search you, then handcuff (after explaining why of course). It's a safety issue for me. Some officers disagree with it some agree. But people have produced weapons from the oddest of places. Despite searching them I'm always afraid of the chance of them having a small gun that I missed. So I figure the handcuffs will make it just a tad more difficult to get to it.

BUT

I hope you read this far down. I disagree with everything from start to finish assuming all that was seen on video and all that was reported by the department / officer / citizen, is true. One I'm not going to attempt to arrest an old man / women for a silly traffic violation even if it was a valid one. So for example we can arrest you for not using your turn signal to change lanes, or for not signaling 100 feet prior to making a turn. But does that mean I'm going to apply that law to a 76 year old man. NO. Those types of laws are handy for arresting / stopping someone we suspect of "other" things but I will leave it at that. I don't want to get side tracked. Point is for the life of me I don't know why the officer was handling the traffic stop in that manner.

On a side note: The old man clearly did resist arrest though . It shouldn't have went that far. The officer looked like he was attempting to "flex" his authority and the old man was going to stand for it. In case I'm not being clear: I think the officer was wrong. I wish the old man would have just accepted the arrest, and dealt with it through the proper channels.

 

[bigjohn]

Thank you for saying that :yahoo: .... It brought a smile to my face.

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Yes. But that being said I too also handcuff anyone that sits in my backseat. For example even if you ask for a ride somewhere I search you, then handcuff (after explaining why of course). It's a safety issue for me. Some officers disagree with it some agree. But people have produced weapons from the oddest of places. Despite searching them I'm always afraid of the chance of them having a small gun that I missed. So I figure the handcuffs will make it just a tad more difficult to get to it.

BUT

I hope you read this far down. I disagree with everything from start to finish assuming all that was seen on video and all that was reported by the department / officer / citizen, is true. One I'm not going to attempt to arrest an old man / women for a silly traffic violation even if it was a valid one. So for example we can arrest you for not using your turn signal to change lanes, or for not signaling 100 feet prior to making a turn. But does that mean I'm going to apply that law to a 76 year old man. NO. Those types of laws are handy for arresting / stopping someone we suspect of "other" things but I will leave it at that. I don't want to get side tracked. Point is for the life of me I don't know why the officer was handling the traffic stop in that manner.

On a side note: The old man clearly did resist arrest though . It shouldn't have went that far. The officer looked like he was attempting to "flex" his authority and the old man was going to stand for it. In case I'm not being clear: I think the officer was wrong. I wish the old man would have just accepted the arrest, and dealt with it through the proper channels.

OMG are you serious! The cop tried to pull the paper out of his hand and, probably by reflex, the old guy didn't let it go! Now I'm really pissed and I give up, you are right, the cops are always right and fuckin' citizens and grandfathers are worthless scum.Did he think the piuece of paper was a knife orv gun? I'm so done with this

 

[jetset]

It seems to me that this issue is similar to the attention media pay to the incidence of problem gambling - the percentage of gamblers with a problem is very low, but every time a compulsive gambler screws up or resorts to criminal activity to feed his or her addiction, the press seize on it and it becomes a major story...probably due to the family harm such behaviour causes.

Ignoring the billions of gambling transactions that take place on a continuing basis, this sort of treatment of isolated incidents tends to generate a more negative picture of gambling than is really the case, and the same happens in cases of police - civilian and racial confrontation imo.

That said, media coverage of police actions and for that matter politics, judicial matters and all issues affecting the freedoms we all cherish is an important element in the vigilance that is essential to avoid democracy turning into an overly restrictive political environment.

By exposing aberrant or corrupt official behaviour and activity, the media helps protect society from it, and therefore plays a watchdog as well as sensationalist and profit-making role. And even the media needs its own watchdogs and ombudsmen (and in the end the oversight of the courts in extreme cases) to make sure it behaves itself.

It is a complex interplay of the many elements that make up a free society, and perhaps one needs to have experienced a society that lacks or limits these fundamental protections to really appreciate their value.

I believe it's important not to obscure the general picture with extreme examples of negative behaviour. By all means highlight and address bad apples, but don't condemn the entire barrel.

 

[The Dude]

I have a question for Cleveland: do you think cops in general would behave differently if there was no chance of them being fired? I understand being concerned for your safety - that's obvious - but you mentioned a lot of cops are afraid of making mistakes. Is this because they worry about their jobs?

The reason I'm asking this is because in Germany - at least in Bavaria - public officials, like a police officer, are tenured positions. It's a job until you retire, and there is no fear of being fired. One theory is that cops that can't be fired are not easily bribed or coerced into doing something that they ought not to do. I'm wondering if cops in the US would deal with their jobs differently if this was the case for them.

In Germany, I don't think anyone would attempt to even think about resisting arrest. Not that the German cops are a bunch of bad-asses, it's just not what people do here. In the US, there is the public adoration of the rebel spirit and "lookit me - I'm a gangsta", and the deluge of stupid-people-with-big-mouths soapbox platforms. Any daily dose of Youtube can confirm that.

 

[alexk]

My first Experience in Frankfurt

I have a question for Cleveland: do you think cops in general would behave differently if there was no chance of them being fired? I understand being concerned for your safety - that's obvious - but you mentioned a lot of cops are afraid of making mistakes. Is this because they worry about their jobs?

The reason I'm asking this is because in Germany - at least in Bavaria - public officials, like a police officer, are tenured positions. It's a job until you retire, and there is no fear of being fired. One theory is that cops that can't be fired are not easily bribed or coerced into doing something that they ought not to do. I'm wondering if cops in the US would deal with their jobs differently if this was the case for them.

In Germany, I don't think anyone would attempt to even think about resisting arrest. Not that the German cops are a bunch of bad-asses, it's just not what people do here. In the US, there is the public adoration of the rebel spirit and "lookit me - I'm a gangsta", and the deluge of stupid-people-with-big-mouths soapbox platforms. Any daily dose of Youtube can confirm that.

Hi Bryan,

I can say that cops in Bavaria are very very friendly when approaching cars and asking questions as opposed to other countries, its not in the culture of Germans to be against rules, they were cautious but no guns were pointed at us or nothing and we were near a park after 23:00 it was cold and dark and we were drinking beers. The only thing the officer told us after checking our papers was please don't litter and have a lovely evening. The cops can be firm when needed though I saw someone being chased out of Frankfurt Bahnhoff (train station) and he was stopped by a female motor cop, she pinned him to the ground quite quick and foreceful, guy didn't even see it coming.


But having experienced cops in the States as well as Greece and Cyprus I can say it really depends on the person you have in front of you, the situation/circumstances and most importantly YOUR attitude.


These guys made it a choice to risk their lives, the least we can do is be polite and understand their work hardship and make it easy on them. A smile and a hell can get you much farther than an attitude!

 

[xxshepxx]

I've not read all of this thread, but IMO it's far too easy for these families to throw the race card.

It's obvious they'd be upset at the death of a loved one, But it doesn't happen when a black cop shoots a white kid in a predominantly white area.

As the OP has pointed out, if these people had done what they were told, I.E. not resisted arrest, not reached into pockets, not had imitation firearms, then I'm sure they would be here (albeit in jail) to tell the story.

 

[Cleveland]

OMG are you serious! The cop tried to pull the paper out of his hand and, probably by reflex, the old guy didn't let it go! Now I'm really pissed and I give up, you are right, the cops are always right and fuckin' citizens and grandfathers are worthless scum.Did he think the piuece of paper was a knife orv gun? I'm so done with this

Umm ok you clearly didn't read what I wrote OR you read it with frosted glasses that only allowed you to see what you wanted to see. I SAID the officer was wrong, I said it shouldn't have went that far as the officer was wrong from START to FINISH.

But yes he did resist arrest. The old man even said himself that he did in the video.

I never said the officer was correct in what he did. The officer escalated the incident. The officer handled the incident wrong. The officer let it go there. How many ways do I have to say it. But I'm glad you responded the way you did because truth be told no matter what an officer says, there will be some that finds wrong in it, and thus acts accordingly towards them.

 

[Cleveland]

I have a question for Cleveland: do you think cops in general would behave differently if there was no chance of them being fired? I understand being concerned for your safety - that's obvious - but you mentioned a lot of cops are afraid of making mistakes. Is this because they worry about their jobs?

The reason I'm asking this is because in Germany - at least in Bavaria - public officials, like a police officer, are tenured positions. It's a job until you retire, and there is no fear of being fired. One theory is that cops that can't be fired are not easily bribed or coerced into doing something that they ought not to do. I'm wondering if cops in the US would deal with their jobs differently if this was the case for them.

In Germany, I don't think anyone would attempt to even think about resisting arrest. Not that the German cops are a bunch of bad-asses, it's just not what people do here. In the US, there is the public adoration of the rebel spirit and "lookit me - I'm a gangsta", and the deluge of stupid-people-with-big-mouths soapbox platforms. Any daily dose of Youtube can confirm that.

That's an interesting question and idea. I never knew police anywhere were able to hold the position like that. I'm not sure how that would work out here. Well to be frank I would be scared to see the results out here because there are plenty of officers I would be afraid would abuse that type of system (In the United States).

Maybe if the hiring process was changed to be more vetting but even then as you alluded to, the mentality of American society is vastly different than many other countries. That same mentality applies to some of the officers as well. So I would be afraid that the bad apples would be even worst. Honestly as I type I realize I'm not sure how to answer this. It's so many other things that would need to be changed with America as a whole for that to work. I like the idea, especially for guys like me lol .

In regards to the mistakes part, yes it's a combination of that (afraid to lose their jobs), as well as afraid of public scrutiny, afraid of harming someone, or being harmed etc.

I guess I rambled and said all that to finally say I'm not sure how that would play out in America. I like the idea, just don't know if I trust the officers here to be given that level of job security. By here I mean America. Sounds sad, and to be clear I mean the few bad apples. I know the percentage of bad officers are very low compared to the number of good officers. I just would hate to see the bad be given more power for lack of a better word.

I dunno, interesting concept. Maybe I should move to Russia.

 

[bigjohn]

Cleveland,

I am sorry that I went off a bit.

As the few members of society that run towards danger instead of away I do have a lot of respect for the Police and the job that they do. FTR, in my 50 years on this planet I have been arrested a total of 1 time, for simple possession of a CDS when I was 18 and when the officer informed me that I was under arrest and that I should turn and put my hands behind my back that is exactly what I did because I knew I was guilty.

Anyways, you commented that Police are people too, please consider that ordinary people are people too.

 

[secret2]

Prayers to the two officers and their families who lost their lives tonight,according to CNN.

The 'Garner' shooter took his own life.

 

[secret2]

It seems that anything one says about the incident, now is just pure 'political' but one thing that I must say, is that it is nothing but a tragedy and no one wins.

Cleveland, you have my sincere sympathies towards you and your colleagues at this time.

Stay safe.

 

[Cleveland]

Prayers to the two officers and their families who lost their lives tonight,according to CNN.

The 'Garner' shooter took his own life.

... Another officer was shot during a traffic stop in a "drive by" style shooting in El Paso, Texas. An unrelated vehicle drove up and shot at the officer who was conducting an unrelated traffic stop on a different vehicle. Thankfully the officer recovered.

I opened my work email and saw another local "prays to family" email: An officer out here committed suicide last night. Another officer out here committed suicide approx 1 month ago. Many many many leave the watch by their own hands.

They are making it seem like the recent events led to this but fact is 4 officers were killed while on break in a coffee shop in Lakewood Washington back in 2009.

Sorry for venting but it needs to be said somewhere, and here is as good as any place. I'm curious how many citizens truly fill their lives are in danger or will be in danger when they go outside because of police. I wonder how many of them can eat at a restaurant and actually enjoy their entire meal without one thought to being shot.

Prays to their families. And of course the watch is covered.

 

[Cleveland]

Cleveland, you have my sincere sympathies towards you and your colleagues at this time.

Stay safe.

Just saw this part. I wanted to thank the post but I realize thanking post is disabled. I'm guessing since it's the political section of the forums. So saying thank you. It was a shock to see the post as I'm off right now. Pulled up my work email and saw all of the emails. Just gets old. I delete most without reading be it threats to law enforcement sent out by the higher up agencies or another death notice.

 

[secret2]

Cleveland, I have a friend on FaceBook, who was a Police Officer (now retired ..now a PI). She is also sick over this, of course.

I would like to know how you are able to deal with this stress. It's either the news of other PO's that have been killed on duty and the public's reaction towards the Police? It seems like an overload.

 

[Cleveland]

Cleveland, I have a friend on FaceBook, who was a Police Officer (now retired ..now a PI). She is also sick over this, of course.

I would like to know how you are able to deal with this stress. It's either the news of other PO's that have been killed on duty and the public's reaction towards the Police? It seems like an overload.

Well currently I'm playing video games with my wife . I happened to look over at the computer screen and decided to hit refresh. I wish I could say I was dealing with it well but I know my mindset has changed a lot over the years. It probably would be a lot worse though if I didn't continue doing the things I love / enjoy. For example I still play video games, watch cartoons and anime, still talk in a babyish voice (sometimes) with my wife, still curl up in ball with my head on her lap, etc. etc. Later tonight we will likely watch a movie. It's hard to remember to continue doing the things that you did before you joined the force. I didn't realize I had stopped until I finally had to go see first a psychologists followed by a psychiatrists. The psychiatrists ask me to list everything I enjoy to do. At the end he ask me how many things on my list did I do. I realized I didn't do one thing off my list anymore. So I try to make sure I do the things I enjoyed before I became an officer.

Many officers are afraid of how they will be labeled if they seek help. Partially why many end up taking their own lives. I wouldn't have gone but another older officer spoke with me as he knew something was wrong. He advised me that he had sought help in the past, and urged me to go.

 

[secret2]

Well currently I'm playing video games with my wife . I happened to look over at the computer screen and decided to hit refresh. I wish I could say I was dealing with it well but I know my mindset has changed a lot over the years. It probably would be a lot worse though if I didn't continue doing the things I love / enjoy. For example I still play video games, watch cartoons and anime, still talk in a babyish voice (sometimes) with my wife, still curl up in ball with my head on her lap, etc. etc. Later tonight we will likely watch a movie. It's hard to remember to continue doing the things that you did before you joined the force. I didn't realize I had stopped until I finally had to go see first a psychologists followed by a psychiatrists. The psychiatrists ask me to list everything I enjoy to do. At the end he ask me how many things on my list did I do. I realized I didn't do one thing off my list anymore. So I try to make sure I do the things I enjoyed before I became an officer.

Many officers are afraid of how they will be labeled if they seek help. Partially why many end up taking their own lives. I wouldn't have gone but another older officer spoke with me as he knew something was wrong. He advised me that he had sought help in the past, and urged me to go.

Keep being silly in your humor (baby voice..I do that a lot, too lol ). Sometimes life can be too 'vivid' and we do forget that this,too, shall pass.

I have had a lot of trauma in my past (just life issues growing up) and have learned after many years to cry, and then laugh and say that there is nothing I can do but what I can do. It is what it is.And move on.



Keep up with the councelling (that doesn't look right, the spelling but you know what I mean).

So? Did your wife win on the video game?

Keep being silly.

 

[Cleveland]

So? Did your wife win on the video game?

She only beats me cause she cheats .

We were on the same team last night though. Was playing castle crashers. Pretty fun game :