RTG software backend issues - RTP etc.

[The Dude]

Just to chime in real quick, I want to thank "dogmeister" for the following comment:

When U.S. regulators develop internet regulation, which will inevitably happen, they will reference U.S. regulatory regimes that currently exist, not U.K. ones.

It is highly unlikely this will include:
a) No RTP variant options for operators
b) An inability to switch between same, periodically and without notification
c) Display of RTP in oeration

Display of RTP will likely be optional, and used by operators for marketing purposes, not due to regulatory guidelines.

That's quite interesting in my opinion. Besides making most of this thread a moot point, the complaints about this from US players will probably fall on deaf ears.

BTW The screenshots that 4ofakind referred to were discussed endlessly in this thread (to include others)
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/corrupt-online-gaming.40838/

Edited to ad - changing topic title since this is about software backend issues, not Titan Casino

 

[Nifty29]

Players will believe first hand experience over any theory, or people coming out saying "nothing has changed" . I mean...you have proof at the local level (your play for many years) vs a person saying ta ta...all is good..I mean, who would you believe??

I know I believe what I have seen , experienced and felt for the last few years..even without being told and forcefed the "all is good" mantra....People do not believe WHAT they want to, they believe WHAT is happening...the odd happenings, the not normal happenings...the extreme changes...Aren't you doing exactly that by claiming nothing has changed and we should believe this even when our play has become different? I guess that means change?

If things have not changed then prove it. You can't, just as we cannot prove they have except for hands on experience that is not the same ...and I will take hands on experience over anyones word of "all is good" anyday.

I swore I would not reply in this thread but it seems as if you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth also IMO..Adjusting is just another word for changing unless I am misreading the meaning of the words....And you say in one breath nothing has changed and in another adjustments can and are made...so , what is it? I will sit back now..and the floor is all yours..I do not want to run you off again as some have accused before, because there are many that do enjoy your input...so I will take my leave and let you at it.


.

Can you please quote where dogboy says "nothing has changed"?

You can't because he didn't say that.....he has talked about the different RTP settings and the mechanics and design of the RTG slots.

He hasn't said anything about which operators have or have not changed the RTP settings at their casinos - he just talked about how it can be done.

Why don't you just take the technical information (which you would normally not be privy to) as just that - technical information, and stop making Dogboy out to be some kind of RTG shill (I'm the resident shill...we don't need another and I'm not sharing the commission) when he is clearly attempting to state the facts and dispel some of the myths about online casinos.

You talk about 'feelings' about RTG software and theories based purely on your own opinion.

He provides facts from his work as a professional with RTG software.

I'll take the facts over feelings any day.

I might agree with you Silc if you had every deposit and every cashout listed along with peak balances etc for the past 5 years. I am assuming you don't, hence you actually have no idea what your personal RTP is over that time....and even if you did, and it was something like 70%, it wouldn't mean the software was dodgy as there would be players running at 100%+ or even more. RTP is based on every combination of the reel stops, and it is unlikely that anyone will experience every combination, so the personal RTP is quite possible going to be lower than the overall RTP of the game.

Anyway, if they are so dodgy why do you still play there? Makes no sense.

 

[silcnlayc]

Can you please quote where dogboy says "nothing has changed"?

Dogboy: Actually, no, NOTHING has changed with Mystic Dragon, you just CHOOSE to BELIEVE that something has changed.

Flashback to 2007 and it was "these slots are rigged! Bring back the good ol' days of 2005!"
Then in 2009 it was: "oh my god something's changed, bring back the slots of 2007!"
Now that it's 2011: "Surely something's been changed! They're sure different to the way they were in 2009!"

Brings me back to my previous parting statement:
People will believe what they WANT to believe
Wooof

I guess you missed this one too. Relates to "nothing has changed" statement.


.

 

[Nifty29]

I guess you missed this one too. Relates to "nothing has changed" statement.


.

No, actually it doesn't.

Dogboy is right in saying that nothing has changed about the design of Mystic Dragon. You are talking about RTPs/payouts/whatever being less and less over the years which is a different kettle of fish.

He was responding to Brianzz who noted that there was now what he thought was a different gap between two scatter symbols on one of the reels. Where they are on the reels has no effect on RTP, so, for all intensive purposes, nothing has changed.

I didn't miss it, I just read it.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

And once again I say "players will believe what they want to believe".



I suggest you start analysing then!

My only question is what happens to the pet theories once the reel strips verify the RTP?

Woooof

I think some of you are giving DogBoy001 too hard a time and references to having too much eggnog and the like aren't really helpful. If people get too argumentative he will stop posting and we will get no further forward.

Why don't we take his advice and analyse the reel strips? I am not a computer person but I believe capturing the reels is fairly straightforward. I seem to remember KK even did some manually somehow.

If you accept the argument that the accredited one's are running 95% games, if you find an RTG offering 200 and 200% bonuses and the like then it would be no great surprise if reel strips were different to the accredited casino. I know this is stating the obvious but it would at least take us a bit forward.

 

[Tengil]

If RTG do have 2 different RTP settings (91% and 95%) it would take quite a few spins to determinate which setting is used. If you would know the volatility of course.
Compiled a list ranging from low (low for slots) to high variance and how many spins it would take to get an estimate of which setting is used with different confidence intervals. Cleopatras Gold for example would probably have an SD of somewhere around 5 to 6, more likely towards the lower end (?).

The other list is how big swings you could have. Chose only 5 and 6 as IMO many RTG slots I play would fall in that category.

From that table you could also interpret that if you played 129 600 spins on a medium/high volatility slot with a betsize of 1 on a slot with 95% RTP and your return was 90% your loss had an probability of ~2,7% or 1 in 740.
First solve the standard deviation for your sample: 6 (SD) x 1 (betsize) x sqrt (spins, 129 600). That would be 2160.
Now calculate the difference between the expected result and you actual result. 5% house edge would mean that the difference is 6480. Now you divide the difference with the standard deviation of your sample and get 3. With 200 000 spins you would get ~3,73 etc. Thats how many standard deviations from mean the results are. Doesnt work well with small samples tough as a 2500 spins sample could have much bigger swings.

A good link (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

).

And yes I was very bored writing this post but its sometimes a bit laughable when people draw their conclusions from small samples, sometimes as low as a few thousands.
I know its very frustrating to lose you balance quickly and to feel that you didnt get a fair game or something similar. I have ranted to support quite a few times after bad sessions. But thats the nature of the beast (slots in this case) and thats what makes them appealing to players.

Maybe a rants and raves section where you could bitch about horrible losing sessions without everyone taking it for that you accuse the games of being rigged could be good.

 

[De Beuker]

So, if I understand everything right is perfectly OK for a casino to double the house edge on slots because players won't notice the difference anyway?
Why don't they just alter the paytable instead of the reelstrips?
Oh wait, players are not THAT stupid, they would notice that!

Try to imagine what would happen if a casino doubled its house edge on videopoker by adding extra cards, i.e. an extra 7 and 8.
Players would not notice the difference until someone gets 5 oak 7's or 8's.
At that point, screenshots would be posted, the software would be rogued and the casino would get burned down to the ground here.

Nifty, would you still play at a casino that lowered the RTP for videopoker by lowering the paytables?
After all, you can still win. You can still get a royal flush on your first attempt, right?
But you have the choice not to play at the lower paytable games, so I bet you would play elsewhere, where the paytables are still showing the higher payouts.

Slotplayers can only guess what their RTP will be, except for the Fruit Frenzy slot, and I know that double pear is pretty widespread among the casino's.
Rushmore (and sisters) have it, Betphoenix, Titan/Winpalace/Slotsjungle.
The CWC group does NOT have it.

 

[nisosbar]

What I think would be interesting is, is there any free casino software available where you could design your own slot with your own RTP settings? You could design a slot, play it with different RTP's, and then say whether or not you felt there was any difference?

 

[DogBoy001]

Quote:
Dogboy: If the game uses a probability schedule in awarding, for example, bonus prizes, this may be adjusted.

If things have not changed then prove it. You can't, just as we cannot prove they have except for hands on experience that is not the same ...and I will take hands on experience over anyones word of "all is good" anyday.

I swore I would not reply in this thread but it seems as if you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth also IMO..Adjusting is just another word for changing unless I am misreading the meaning of the words....And you say in one breath nothing has changed and in another adjustments can and are made...so , what is it?.

Silc, I am not saying that something has been adjusted, changed, altered or modified, and yes, they all mean the same thing.

My comments in relation to "nothing has changed" in Mystic Dragon's reel strips were directly in relation to the OP's comments (and note, as I may have previously mentioned, that if the OP had been correct and 2 scatters still existed on a reel strip that had been shortened, as originally claimed, this would have made the feature more likely to trigger, not less).

In relation to the possibility of altering a probability schedule, I am merely pointing out that if a game uses this type of facility in determining, for example, how many games are awarded upon a trigger (e.g.: pick to reveal 10, 15 or 25 free games), this could be adjusted to alter an RTP setting.

The point of this comment is that reel strip analysis on games that have such mechanisms will not show the RTP in use.

Analysis should therefore be conducted on games that have non-variable parameters. e.g.: A feature that always triggers 15 free games, and does not have bonus prizes of a variable nature.

Care should be taken in this analysis, however, as free game reel strips often differ from main game reel strips.
e.g.: Extra substitute, extra scatter or other high-paying symbols may supplant some symbol positions during free games, in order to increase the pay potential of the feature.

Woooof

 

[silcnlayc]

DogBoy001, would you kindly go fix the darn things so they would play longer and payout a tad more than $0 on bonus rounds and/or free spins??? Please???

I do not know who thought up this vicious joke on gamblers but it is extremely mean spirited IMO...especially when you blow $200 bucks to catch it and for it to only give you Nothing??? Yep, mean spirited joke on us players.

I sure would love to come back and play again...but won't till it gets all sorted out ....

I do have a question that has popped up a few times...does the ratio of players playing at any given time a factor for the machine (slots to be exact) to trigger a winning session? We have had this discussion and it seems some are agreeing that the reason they feel there is less triggers is there are a lot less players which makes the slots play a lot tighter?

I feel this to be not true, because of playing back in the 90's, there were some casinos that showed how many players at any given time were online ( I still remember being 1 of 5 online at the time I was playing and caught a RF JP) and I won more then (yes, yes, I did) and hit many more Rapid Fire jackpots with so few players at another casino (Intercasino) whereas now...it is like hitting a black hole...so, if players affect the play/pay, why did it work better when there were less players than now playing than in the earlier years, versus now, when there are a lot more even if many have quit, there still is many more than ever playing...but yet, it does seem as if the slots have died....

I think we talked about the Rapid Fire JP's before and how one would be able to gauge when they went off because the casino didn't allow it to go over a certain point (I think the most it ever went was around $2500)...and play until you would catch one ( I did catch a few) unlike the Randoms/Mini/Major jackpots RTG is offering today.

I believed that you said they introduced those (Mini/Major) to hit more frequently unless I was mistaken in what I understood (and that happens at times) you saying a while ago. I do not think they are working the way they really should IMO... because they , too , are getting as large as the Randoms...and that wasn't what they were introduced for...did I understand that wrong? Right? They should be hitting a lot more IMO if they were to mimic the Rapid Fire IMO once again but they aren't.

(I am rambling and I will shut up now)

.

 

[jetset]

Silc, I am not saying that something has been adjusted, changed, altered or modified, and yes, they all mean the same thing.

My comments in relation to "nothing has changed" in Mystic Dragon's reel strips were directly in relation to the OP's comments (and note, as I may have previously mentioned, that if the OP had been correct and 2 scatters still existed on a reel strip that had been shortened, as originally claimed, this would have made the feature more likely to trigger, not less).

In relation to the possibility of altering a probability schedule, I am merely pointing out that if a game uses this type of facility in determining, for example, how many games are awarded upon a trigger (e.g.: pick to reveal 10, 15 or 25 free games), this could be adjusted to alter an RTP setting.

The point of this comment is that reel strip analysis on games that have such mechanisms will not show the RTP in use.

Analysis should therefore be conducted on games that have non-variable parameters. e.g.: A feature that always triggers 15 free games, and does not have bonus prizes of a variable nature.

Care should be taken in this analysis, however, as free game reel strips often differ from main game reel strips.
e.g.: Extra substitute, extra scatter or other high-paying symbols may supplant some symbol positions during free games, in order to increase the pay potential of the feature.

Woooof

Let me say from the start that I am enjoying your posts and the opportunity to learn more about the technical design and construction of games that they bring to the table, DogBoy.

And I admire your restraint and patience in debating the at times heated issues involved.

The last statement of the quote above, if I am interpreting it correctly, should re-ignite the old debate about free play vs. real play, and the morality of 'easier' games on freeplay to pull in the punters.

 

[DogBoy001]

The last statement of the quote above, if I am interpreting it correctly, should re-ignite the old debate about free play vs. real play, and the morality of 'easier' games on freeplay to pull in the punters.

Thanks for the kind words Jetset,

Note re the last sentence, this is not referring to Free Play modes (which use the same RTP settings).

This is referring to Free Game features.
e.g.: When a free game feature is triggered, the reel strips used within that feature may be improved through symbol substitution, in order to increase the return per feature game.

Woooof

 

[vinylweatherman]

So, if I understand everything right is perfectly OK for a casino to double the house edge on slots because players won't notice the difference anyway?
Why don't they just alter the paytable instead of the reelstrips?
Oh wait, players are not THAT stupid, they would notice that!

Try to imagine what would happen if a casino doubled its house edge on videopoker by adding extra cards, i.e. an extra 7 and 8.
Players would not notice the difference until someone gets 5 oak 7's or 8's.
At that point, screenshots would be posted, the software would be rogued and the casino would get burned down to the ground here.

Nifty, would you still play at a casino that lowered the RTP for videopoker by lowering the paytables?
After all, you can still win. You can still get a royal flush on your first attempt, right?
But you have the choice not to play at the lower paytable games, so I bet you would play elsewhere, where the paytables are still showing the higher payouts.

Slotplayers can only guess what their RTP will be, except for the Fruit Frenzy slot, and I know that double pear is pretty widespread among the casino's.
Rushmore (and sisters) have it, Betphoenix, Titan/Winpalace/Slotsjungle.
The CWC group does NOT have it.

Well, we now have the PROOF that what players have experienced IS a tightening of the slots from an original 95% down to 91%. Players have been LIED TO on a regular basis when they have complained to the operators who have given them the bullshit about "bad luck" and nothing more being the cause. The operators knew that players were NOTICING the long term effect of a 4% increase in the house edge, even though in the SHORT term it WOULD look like a spell of bad luck.

Rushmore seem to offer big bonuses, and now we know HOW they can do this, 91% slots.

Winpalace and slotsjungle, both 91% and big bonuses, and COPIOUS SPAM - rogue, so no surprise there.

Betphoenix - 91% (shame on you).

Club World, says 95%, and Fruit Frenzy evidence supports this, just as expected from an accredited casino that tells players it is 95%.

As for a reel strip analysis, what it will do is IDENTIFY those operators that are set to 91%, in other words, the ones who REALLY HAVE tightened the slots, as against those where it REALLY IS just a spell of bad luck on 95% games.

Players can then decide whether they want 91% and the inevitable big bonuses, or 95% with more modest offers. Players who do NOT use bonuses should look for 95% games, since they do not benefit from the perks offered with 91% variants.

 

[Nifty29]

Well, we now have the PROOF that what players have experienced IS a tightening of the slots from an original 95% down to 91%. Players have been LIED TO on a regular basis when they have complained to the operators who have given them the bullshit about "bad luck" and nothing more being the cause. The operators knew that players were NOTICING the long term effect of a 4% increase in the house edge, even though in the SHORT term it WOULD look like a spell of bad luck.

Rushmore seem to offer big bonuses, and now we know HOW they can do this, 91% slots.

Winpalace and slotsjungle, both 91% and big bonuses, and COPIOUS SPAM - rogue, so no surprise there.

Betphoenix - 91% (shame on you).

Club World, says 95%, and Fruit Frenzy evidence supports this, just as expected from an accredited casino that tells players it is 95%.

As for a reel strip analysis, what it will do is IDENTIFY those operators that are set to 91%, in other words, the ones who REALLY HAVE tightened the slots, as against those where it REALLY IS just a spell of bad luck on 95% games.

Players can then decide whether they want 91% and the inevitable big bonuses, or 95% with more modest offers. Players who do NOT use bonuses should look for 95% games, since they do not benefit from the perks offered with 91% variants.

Ahhhh!

At last someone has created something useful out of the factual information Dogmeister has been providing instead of trying to shout it down.

So we know that the fruit frenzy 2-pear reel means 91% - and those casinos mentioned have chosen that setting (and I can't say I'm surprised about any of them). BetPhoenix and their huge bonuses and Rushmore the same, LosePalace and SlotsJungle.....well 'nuff said.

Club World, who has come under fire recently (most of it unwarranted), has opted for the 95% setting as advertised. Kudos to them! I do think they are a great casino and this is an example of their honesty and trustworthiness.

The task for us now is to check the RTGs we play at and see what we are being dealt....2 pears = 2 clicks (EXIT + UNINSTALL)

It will be interesting to see which operators come out of this looking good, and which are put to shame.

In fact, maybe we could have a sticky thread called "RTG WATCH" - with a "Wall of Fame" and "Wall of Shame" and update it when someone notices any RTP change. It might end up being an incentive for some operators to increase their settings, which is good for players.

 

[johnsteed]

***



I also greatly admire Vinylweatherman's views, from the perspective of a player (which isn't coming from the perspective of someone within the industry). If he's right or not, ultimately I don't always know, but he certainly feels that he is, so please, keep at it. He's done tons for this site...




***

 

[gerilege]

I have only one question.
Can individual games be adjusted independently within one casino, or only the whole pack of games can be changed as a whole?
If the first one is true, then checking FruitFrenzy is not enough, as an operator might choose to set FF to 95% and all the others to some lower level.

 

[deucebag]

I have only one question.
Can individual games be adjusted independently within one casino, or only the whole pack of games can be changed as a whole?
If the first one is true, then checking FruitFrenzy is not enough, as an operator might choose to set FF to 95% and all the others to some lower level.

Not only can they adjust independently by game, but also by coin size. So you might get one RTP on $1, and another on $10.

What's more, this means the casinos can adjust the RTP for individual players, if they were so inclined, since it is unlikely that two players are playing the same game with the same coin size at the same time.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Ahhhh!

At last someone has created something useful out of the factual information Dogmeister has been providing instead of trying to shout it down.

So we know that the fruit frenzy 2-pear reel means 91% - and those casinos mentioned have chosen that setting (and I can't say I'm surprised about any of them). BetPhoenix and their huge bonuses and Rushmore the same, LosePalace and SlotsJungle.....well 'nuff said.

Club World, who has come under fire recently (most of it unwarranted), has opted for the 95% setting as advertised. Kudos to them! I do think they are a great casino and this is an example of their honesty and trustworthiness.

The task for us now is to check the RTGs we play at and see what we are being dealt....2 pears = 2 clicks (EXIT + UNINSTALL)

It will be interesting to see which operators come out of this looking good, and which are put to shame.

In fact, maybe we could have a sticky thread called "RTG WATCH" - with a "Wall of Fame" and "Wall of Shame" and update it when someone notices any RTP change. It might end up being an incentive for some operators to increase their settings, which is good for players.

As Dogboy said we don't know this for a fact though as changing reel strip layouts does not necessarily affect the RTP. As I understand it he is saying you need to do a 2 million plus recording of spin results in order to acertain the RTP as it can't be calculated from reel strips.

The two pear reel strip instance can only ever be a guess. Also it only applies to Fruit Frenzy and can't be applied to other games. It can only be a guess at this stage.

I think all we know at this stage is that the 91% setting does exist and that ClubWorld did I believe go on record saying their games are 95%.

I think we should be careful about making direct accusations against casinos without proof and the only way to prove it is with a 2 million plus recording of spin results and even then th RJ's make it tricky.

This is my understanding of this thread at least .

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have only one question.
Can individual games be adjusted independently within one casino, or only the whole pack of games can be changed as a whole?
If the first one is true, then checking FruitFrenzy is not enough, as an operator might choose to set FF to 95% and all the others to some lower level.

I am surprised they DIDN'T realise that this "2 pears" was a dead giveaway, and leave Fruit Frenzy alone, and adjust all the others down to 91%. This would, and still could, fool us into believing that the setting of Fruit Frenzy reflected the rest of the games.

Not only can they adjust independently by game, but also by coin size. So you might get one RTP on $1, and another on $10.

What's more, this means the casinos can adjust the RTP for individual players, if they were so inclined, since it is unlikely that two players are playing the same game with the same coin size at the same time.

There was no mention of an ability to have different RTP settings for different stakes, it seems to be a setting for the game as a whole.

There has also been a statement made that the adjustment is in blocks of games, similar to how the Random Jackpot can be shared over a number of games.

As Dogboy said we don't know this for a fact though as changing reel strip layouts does not necessarily affect the RTP. As I understand it he is saying you need to do a 2 million plus recording of spin results in order to acertain the RTP as it can't be calculated from reel strips.

The two pear reel strip instance can only ever be a guess. Also it only applies to Fruit Frenzy and can't be applied to other games. It can only be a guess at this stage.

I think all we know at this stage is that the 91% setting does exist and that ClubWorld did I believe go on record saying their games are 95%.

I think we should be careful about making direct accusations against casinos without proof and the only way to prove it is with a 2 million plus recording of spin results and even then th RJ's make it tricky.

This is my understanding of this thread at least .

This thread has turned this from a guess into a certainty, because DogBoy revealed that the "2 pear" variant was the 91% setting.

With the other games, we only know that 3 settings exist, not how to spot which one is in use.

At present, we have to take a guess that if Fruit Frenzy is showing the 91% setting, the operator is prepared to USE the 91% setting on the games.

If we see the 95% Fruit Frenzy setting, we CANNOT assume this means the operator does NOT alter the settings. It could be that they have realised the "dead giveaway" on Fruit Frenzy, and so leave it alone at 95%, knowing this will be spotted, and hope that players conclude that ALL games must be on 95%.

 

[deucebag]

There was no mention of an ability to have different RTP settings for different stakes, it seems to be a setting for the game as a whole.

Mention where?

I've seen screen shots of the back end that indicate RTP can be set by game and coin size.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Mention where?

I've seen screen shots of the back end that indicate RTP can be set by game and coin size.

Are these still available somewhere?

Did they come from CasinoJack?

Are these of the CURRENT set-up, or a much earlier one, where RTG have already admitted operators had far more leeway with this than they have now?

 

[deucebag]

Are these still available somewhere?

Did they come from CasinoJack?

Are these of the CURRENT set-up, or a much earlier one, where RTG have already admitted operators had far more leeway with this than they have now?

The screenshot that Casinojack posted on the forum last year indicated that RTPs could be set by coin size.

An older example can be seen in an old post by virtualted who posted the settings for Bonkers, which clearly had different settings for different coins:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/virtual-ted.6693/

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Virtualized just a couple of posts above in that 2004 thread:

'On slots we can set the machine in basically the same way. Every machine is different, but can change the % from like 97% to 94%. This is no different than Vegas casinos setting certain machines near entrances and buffet lines to pay at a higher % than a bank of machines in the middle of casino. We have no control over frequency of payouts though.'

That does suggest every slot can have it's RTP altered. So the two pear reel on Fruit Frenzy is no real help really. If RTP can be altered this easily then it must be through the bonus round probability tables. It's hard to see how adding a single pear to one reel could change the RTP by 4%.

The Fruit Frenzy thing is interesting but is not the answer and could even be a diversion I reckon.

To me it seems more likely than not the RTP is changable at the operator level and it would not be a great surprise if this can be done on an individual account basis also.

Perhaps the truth is that the non Clubworld RTG's have most machines set at 91% and a few at 95%. This would not be vastly different form Wagerworks and Cryptologic who both have slots in that range. Certainly those two don't have all their slots set at 95% so RTG would be broadly in line.

So should we even be that surprised? 91% is certainly poor but the bonuses are often decent. I am not saying it's right for a moment as I hate not knowing RTP. I am just saying should anyone really be surprised about this as RTG RTP's have never been published by a regulator. I have always assumed it was 91% with RTG but then I have the choice of many softwares.

If you look at all the other providers they all have a mix of 91-96% games in the main. So it would be no surprise if the average RTG had a mixture of the two just as Virtualized appears to indicate.

Possibly in the last year the amount of 91% games has increased. One good reason for doing so is it would reduce the amount of processing fees on cashouts which for casinos dealing with US customers must be very high. Also it means less cash going to processors who may themselves run into problems. In the early days post the US player problems perhaps RTG could absorb the processing fees more easily but maybe it is getting much harder now.

 

[4 of a kind]

I'd like to know why everyone here thinks that the highest settings today for the house edge with RTG and other online software providers is only 91%?

Where is that confirmed in stone? I think the best anyone could do here with a confirmation on this is nothing more then someone allegedly reliable and trustworthy said so. If I could go to some online gaming commission and read about what the lowest settings allowed are, that's another story. If I could, would one of you pros (maybe DogBoy) please direct me where I could read this?

For the past year here 98% of the players are crying a river. Does anyone here actually believe that a couple of % points could cause this?

I for one believe they have the ability to set the house edge as high as 80%, and do it any damn time they please.

In addition I believe they also have the ability to have coupon codes when entered by the player that will default to predetermined house edge percentages that could be set as low as 80%.

No.... I can't prove this, but you can't prove the settings are 91% or better.

 

[Nifty29]

As Dogboy said we don't know this for a fact though as changing reel strip layouts does not necessarily affect the RTP. As I understand it he is saying you need to do a 2 million plus recording of spin results in order to acertain the RTP as it can't be calculated from reel strips.

The two pear reel strip instance can only ever be a guess. Also it only applies to Fruit Frenzy and can't be applied to other games. It can only be a guess at this stage.

I think all we know at this stage is that the 91% setting does exist and that ClubWorld did I believe go on record saying their games are 95%.

I think we should be careful about making direct accusations against casinos without proof and the only way to prove it is with a 2 million plus recording of spin results and even then th RJ's make it tricky.

This is my understanding of this thread at least .

Yup. Fair call.

I wasn't aware that games could be altered individually

AFAIK Dogmeister didn't address this so maybe he has some info to share.

 

[jod5413]

I'd like to know why everyone here thinks that the highest settings today for the house edge with RTG and other online software providers is only 91%?

Where is that confirmed in stone? I think the best anyone could do here with a confirmation on this is nothing more then someone allegedly reliable and trustworthy said so. If I could go to some online gaming commission and read about what the lowest settings allowed are, that's another story. If I could, would one of you pros (maybe DogBoy) please direct me where I could read this?

For the past year here 98% of the players are crying a river. Does anyone here actually believe that a couple of % points could cause this?

I for one believe they have the ability to set the house edge as high as 80%, and do it any damn time they please.

In addition I believe they also have the ability to have coupon codes when entered by the player that will default to predetermined house edge percentages that could be set as low as 80%.

No.... I can't prove this, but you can't prove the settings are 91% or better.

That is something I have never thought could be done. To me that opens a whole new can of worms about casinos. Sigh...

 

[all4greed]

In addition I believe they also have the ability to have coupon codes when entered by the player that will default to predetermined house edge percentages that could be set as low as 80%.

No.... I can't prove this, but you can't prove the settings are 91% or better.

Scary if that would/could/should be an option.

 

[gerilege]

Perhaps the truth is that the non Clubworld RTG's have most machines set at 91% and a few at 95%.

I am not convinced at all that CWC has all of their slots set at 95%, especially for higher coin size. I have strong reasons to believe that some rougish ones have them set at 91%, and also strong reasons to believe that another group of casinos has them set at at least 95%, some probably even 97,5%.

 

[footdr]

Not going to play RTG anymore

Could be luck, but based on 3+years experience, can't buy a bonus game and if I do hit one, get hardly any payback. I can play at several other groups and deposit atleast lasts a good while. But RTG gone way too fast.

And bonuses not real good at CW lately.

Due to posts in delayed payouts was staying clear of Rushmore.

Adios RTG. Something strange going on.

 

[Nate]

I'd like to know why everyone here thinks that the highest settings today for the house edge with RTG and other online software providers is only 91%?

Where is that confirmed in stone? I think the best anyone could do here with a confirmation on this is nothing more then someone allegedly reliable and trustworthy said so. If I could go to some online gaming commission and read about what the lowest settings allowed are, that's another story. If I could, would one of you pros (maybe DogBoy) please direct me where I could read this?

For the past year here 98% of the players are crying a river. Does anyone here actually believe that a couple of % points could cause this?

I for one believe they have the ability to set the house edge as high as 80%, and do it any damn time they please.

In addition I believe they also have the ability to have coupon codes when entered by the player that will default to predetermined house edge percentages that could be set as low as 80%.

No.... I can't prove this, but you can't prove the settings are 91% or better.

Welcome Back 4oak!!

I don't understand what you mean about the coupon codes. Do you actually mean that if I use (as an example) 'Welcome300' that the specific code will make my RTP lower than if i were to use no code at all?

Nate

 

[4 of a kind]

Welcome Back 4oak!!

I don't understand what you mean about the coupon codes. Do you actually mean that if I use (as an example) 'Welcome300' that the specific code will make my RTP lower than if i were to use no code at all?

Nate

Yes... Although I can't prove this without a reasonable doubt, the assumption by many here that the highest house edge percentage used with online gaming is 91.4%, being based on for hear say; I also heard from a very reliable source that this pre-set coupon default house edge settings are in fact available.

In addition I was told that the highest setting available is 80%, and this is the highest setting they are authorized to use. Who enforces this is of course up in the air, but this is what I was told.

This doesn't mean all online casinos are using this setting, but it is far from what is being shoved in our faces.

In addition this doesn't mean that online casinos are cheating in any way shape or form. In Atlantic City the lowest legal setting available for slot machines are 83% to 99%. Of course if a casino choose to set all their machines at 83% it wouldn't be long before they had no customers.

How the land based casinos report monthly house edge settings per coin denomination, is by taking the records of all the same coin size machines, read the monthly stored data and take an average. The settings for all the machines will vary from 83% on up. Of course the 83% machines in time will prove shitty results but they too are capable of hitting the Jackpot.

Here is a print out I posted a few years ago that show these B&M's averages, which are posted every month.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/b-m-payouts.36710/

 

[Nate]

In addition I was told that the highest setting available is 80%, and this is the highest setting they are authorized to use. Who enforces this is of course up in the air, but this is what I was told.

Thats a 20% House Hold? I wonder if DogBoy can clarify if the Coupon Code issue remains true?

Nate

 

[Nifty29]

Who told you this stuff 4oak?

Was it CasinoJack?

What makes you think that they are reliable?

Why do you give this person more creedence than dogboy for example. - after all they can't both be right?

Please don't take this as a personal attack...these are serious questions.

I am not dismissing your claims. However I don't think the word of some mysterious person is even close to making them valid.

What you are saying is extremely serious and could change the way we all view online casinos, and that's why it's so important to be sure and establish all the facts and not ignore the ones that are contrary to the claims.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The screenshot that Casinojack posted on the forum last year indicated that RTPs could be set by coin size.

An older example can be seen in an old post by virtualted who posted the settings for Bonkers, which clearly had different settings for different coins:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/virtual-ted.6693/

Hardly "reliable sources".

Virtual Ted would be telling us what we wanted to hear, CasinoJack was telling us all that RTG had many "dark secrets".

We don't know for sure where CasinoJack got that screenshot from. It may be from an old RTG product, posted to feed the conspiracy movement, rather than an "as now" RTG "back end".

Now that we know how RTP settings are changed, we can also see if this "by coin size" idea can be backed up by some hard evidence. This would mean analysing one slot at all it's coin size options, to see whether any run with a different set of reelstrips.

Would the average RTG operator even know what to do with this many available options?

Look what happened at Tradition when there were "too many options" available on the operator console, they SCREWED UP by not setting ALL interdependent options consistently.

Whilst other softwares use lower settings on their slots, they STAY low, they are not continually messed around with.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Now that we know how RTP settings are changed, we can also see if this "by coin size" idea can be backed up by some hard evidence. This would mean analysing one slot at all it's coin size options, to see whether any run with a different set of reelstrips.

It's hardly likely they are going to be using different reel strips for different RTP's. Much more likely is they would adjust the probability tables downwards for the bonus rounds. If they constantly adjusted reel strips players would be much more likely to spot it and avoid those machines.

Dogboy said RTG license out some of their slots to B&M casinos in Australia who run them on much lower payouts. Given that the Australian RTP's are much lower you would expect the reel strips to be quite different if you believe the reel strip idea and it ought to be fairly easy to spot if anyone could play on those machines.

Personally I doubt they would go to the trouble of having different RTP's for different coin sizes. And if they could adjust RTP down to 80% on a coupon that would be pretty wacky and I think they would have been exposed by now.

What could be more likely is they have more global settings than we may realise. It could be they can fiddle with these settings on a regular basis and can easily toggle between RTP settings. So they could have 95% games in the week when there are no bonuses and then toggle them to 91% at the weekend when there are coupons offered. I guess it's possible it could even be lower than 91% too but maybe not too likely I think.

The fact that a slot like Cleopatra's Gold is running in B&M casinos at reduced RTP in Australia will get the conspiracy theorists interested. If the reels turn out to be the same that will mean it is easy to adjust RTP from the bonus rounds. So if RTG are running identical games at different RTP's online and in B&M then it does make you wonder if there are a lot of different RTP settings available.

I think the only way forward is to analyse a slot on a single coin setting as doing all coin settings would be a huge task. But even that won't answer the question of how easily and frequently the RTP can be toggled should that be the case.

 

[Nate]

Personally I doubt they would go to the trouble of having different RTP's for different coin sizes. And if they could adjust RTP down to 80% on a coupon that would be pretty wacky and I think they would have been exposed by now.

The issue is not with coin sizes but with coupon codes. Those wonderful bonuses they offer are set to a lower RTP (I think thats what 4oak meant)..

In any event, I recall a rep from a RTG (not sure which 1) confirmed that the RTP remains the same across coin sizes.

B&M RTP settings are definately set to a higher coin size on higher coin values.

Nate

 

[Nifty29]

I've played land based slots here for 20 years and I have never encountered any of the RTG games.

It could be that RTG create different games for BM casinos.

Dogmeister should be able to clear this up.

 

[Kenny Lingus]

Sorry for crying rigged Nifty, but I won't get into your fecal flinging contest.

Fecal Flinging Contest - What a great name for a band!

 

[Kenny Lingus]

Actually, no, NOTHING has changed with Mystic Dragon, you just CHOOSE to BELIEVE that something has changed.

Flashback to 2007 and it was "these slots are rigged! Bring back the good ol' days of 2005!"
Then in 2009 it was: "oh my god something's changed, bring back the slots of 2007!"
Now that it's 2011: "Surely something's been changed! They're sure different to the way they were in 2009!"

Brings me back to my previous parting statement:
People will believe what they WANT to believe

Wooof

Or how about my assertion:

"Never play RTG; they've always sucked!"

 

[4 of a kind]

Who told you this stuff 4oak?

Was it CasinoJack?

What makes you think that they are reliable?

Why do you give this person more creedence than dogboy for example. - after all they can't both be right?

Why does everyone constantly bring up Casino Jack and whatever it was he posted a long time ago?

I never met the man or spoke directly to him, other then getting all over him in a thread a while back here.

The screen shots I sent to Bryan had nothing to do with CasinoJack or from any casino he ever worked at.

Although the casino's name and other identifying details were blacked out (so I thought) on those screen shots; and although Bryan said RTG didn't get back to him immediately along with him being away, I could tell you for fact that within seven days of me sending those shots to Bryan, RTG was all over it big time, and even identified the source. Now how would I know this? Hmmmm...

I'm wondering how good are Bryan's connections to RTG? If RTG knew the casino they came from within seven days, why would Bryan claim that even just one of them was related to CasinoJack a couple of months later after he sent them the second time (when they responded in a couple of hours)? I only could assume RTG left Bryan out of the loop on this one since Bryan made this quote in another thread: (quote) "Actually, one of the screenshots was posted by casinojack sometime last year in the thread where he was boasting on how he could make the changes".

And just for the record Bryan also only saw three of the fourteen shots that did exist.

I just wanted to clear all that up with the CasinoJack bs and finally get that behind me.

Back to the main topic here.

Most everyone here appear to be adamant about online casino house edge advantage settings insisting their never less then 91.4%. Everyone here should also realize there is no possible way any one person could confirm this. The only way possible is for the casino's to release all data pertaining to whatever game one might be questioning.

If someone could confirm without doubt about the actual settings I'm all ears and eyes.

My source for default pre-settings is just as good as any others with claims of them not existing. It appears Bryan's sources want to remain anonymous, and I could assure you my source feels the same way. Apparently, these people are in fear of being exposed. I can't confirm anything about what I was told, but I was told this.

As a gambling forum open for debate why can't I tell everyone what I was told? As far as I'm concerned the source was reliable. I'd be happy if someone could prove this scenario is impossible.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Why does everyone constantly bring up Casino Jack and whatever it was he posted a long time ago?

I never met the man or spoke directly to him, other then getting all over him in a thread a while back here.

The screen shots I sent to Bryan had nothing to do with CasinoJack or from any casino he ever worked at.

Although the casino's name and other identifying details were blacked out (so I thought) on those screen shots; and although Bryan said RTG didn't get back to him immediately along with him being away, I could tell you for fact that within seven days of me sending those shots to Bryan, RTG was all over it big time, and even identified the source. Now how would I know this? Hmmmm...

I'm wondering how good are Bryan's connections to RTG? If RTG knew the casino they came from within seven days, why would Bryan claim the shots were just old ones from CasinoJack a couple of months later after he sent them the second time (when they responded in a couple of hours)? I only could assume RTG left Bryan out of the loop on this one since Bryan made this quote in another thread: (quote) "Actually, one of the screenshots was posted by casinojack sometime last year in the thread where he was boasting on how he could make the changes".

And just for the record Bryan also only saw three of the fourteen shots that did exist.

I just wanted to clear all that up with the CasinoJack bs and finally get that behind me.

Back to the main topic here.

Most everyone here appear to be adamant about online casino house edge advantage settings insisting their never less then 91.4%. Everyone here should also realize there is no possible way any one person could confirm this. The only way possible is for the casino's to release all data pertaining to whatever game one might be questioning.

If someone could confirm without doubt about the actual settings I'm all ears and eyes.

My source for default pre-settings is just as good as any others with claims of them not existing. It appears Bryan's sources want to remain anonymous, and I could assure you my source feels the same way. Apparently, these people are in fear of being exposed. I can't confirm anything about what I was told, but I was told this.

As a gambling forum open for debate why can't I tell everyone what I was told? As far as I'm concerned the source was reliable. I'd be happy if someone could prove this scenario is impossible.

The problem is that what your source gave you, contradicts the official line of RTG on these matters, although the fact that RTG were "all over it big time" tells me these were GENUINE, and probably CURRENT, and what's more TRACEABLE back to source, despite the censorship of any identifying information.

With a contradiction between two "reliable" sources, this is not going to go away just because ONE of these "reliable sources" says they are the right ones, and the other is wrong.

IF the source was neither Virtual (including ex employees with a grudge), nor CasinoJack, then these should be taken more seriously.

HOWEVER, surely no-one WOULD send such pictures to a player if they were still working at the operator they got them from, so we STILL have the possibilty that the sender had his own agenda, and may not have sent the pictures purely to assist the player community avoid getting "scammed".

Unfortunately, removing identifying details from the pictures ALSO renders them almost worthless as "hard evidence" of any wrong doings by RTG operators.

 

[4 of a kind]

HOWEVER, surely no-one WOULD send such pictures to a player if they were still working at the operator they got them from, so we STILL have the possibilty that the sender had his own agenda, and may not have sent the pictures purely to assist the player community avoid getting "scammed".

This assumption by you is expected and very logical. But your not even close.


Unfortunately, removing identifying details from the pictures ALSO renders them almost worthless as "hard evidence" of any wrong doings by RTG operators.

I did the erasing before sending them to Bryan.

 

[DogBoy001]

In addition I was told that the highest setting available is 80%, and this is the highest setting they are authorized to use. Who enforces this is of course up in the air, but this is what I was told.

This is not correct for RTG's on-line operators.

RTG's on-line system, for the majority of games, has RTP variants of 91%, 95% and 97.5%.
By this, 91% variants range from 91.00% to 91.25%, depending on the precise parameters of the game.
95% variants range from 95.00 to 95.25%, and the 97.5% variants range from 97.50 to 97.75%

There are also some large progressive jackpot games that are only available in a 94% setting.

Woooof

 

[4 of a kind]

This is not correct for RTG's on-line operators.

RTG's on-line system, for the majority of games, has RTP variants of 91%, 95% and 97.5%.
By this, 91% variants range from 91.00% to 91.25%, depending on the precise parameters of the game.
95% variants range from 95.00 to 95.25%, and the 97.5% variants range from 97.50 to 97.75%

There are also some large progressive jackpot games that are only available in a 94% setting.



Woooof

DogBoy001,

Your, posts / threads are a very much needed insight on the inner workings of casino game software programs. With no doubt you are an expert and I'm sure along with everyone else here would like to thank you for your input.

Being a game programmer for RTG would you say for 100% certain you are aware of all possible related programing with RTG, to include marketing software, financial software, player software, coupon software, super user accounts, etc. etc. just to name a few.

No doubt you are a game programmer, or at least know an awful lot about it. Are you aware of what all other programmers are working on? Is it even remotely possible for a 20% house edge advantage to exist executed from a higher up person and you have no idea it even exists?

Can you actually get into an RTG casinos software and read the settings being used in real time?

Does RTG openly share all programming with all programmers?

I ask these questions cause no one here actually know for sure how anything works with online gaming. For the most part us gamblers only know two things for sure, and that's winning or losing...

 

[DogBoy001]

DogBoy001,

Your, posts / threads are a very much needed insight on the inner workings of casino game software programs. With no doubt you are an expert and I'm sure along with everyone else here would like to thank you for your input.

Being a game programmer for RTG would you say for 100% certain you are aware of all possible related programing with RTG, to include marketing software, financial software, player software, coupon software, super user accounts, etc. etc. just to name a few.

No doubt you are a game programmer, or at least know an awful lot about it. Are you aware of what all other programmers are working on? Is it even remotely possible for a 20% house edge advantage to exist executed from a higher up person and you have no idea it even exists?

Can you actually get into an RTG casinos software and read the settings being used in real time?

Does RTG openly share all programming with all programmers?

I ask these questions cause no one here actually know for sure how anything works with online gaming. For the most part us gamblers only know two things for sure, and that's winning or losing...

Heya,

As I've stated before, we do not work for RTG, nor do the implementation programming.

We are the game developers, and do our own QA testing of the products to ensure that they are functioning as designed.

This gives us a pretty clear picture into the function of the product.

Real Time are aware that I respond on these forums to technical quesitons.

There's simply no way to "mask" the use of an 80% RTP setting, as you are suggesting is an option on-line, in most games.

I think the suggestion that independent people such as forum members devote some time to mapping reel strips is a worthy one.
Even without reference to variable elements such as "pick a prize" features, and variations made to free game feature reel strips (which are almost exclusively improved, not declined), this should give a pretty clear picture of RTP being 91% or greater.

Woooof

 

[all4greed]

Even without reference to variable elements such as "pick a prize" features, and variations made to free game feature reel strips (which are almost exclusively improved, not declined), this should give a pretty clear picture of RTP being 91% or greater.

Speaking of picking a prize or spins in this case, are the Texas Tycoon free spins predetermined before the player picks an oil well? Seems 9 out of 10 times I only get 8 spins with the 25 spins oh so close...

 

[Nate]

This is not correct for RTG's on-line operators.

RTG's on-line system, for the majority of games, has RTP variants of 91%, 95% and 97.5%.
By this, 91% variants range from 91.00% to 91.25%, depending on the precise parameters of the game.
95% variants range from 95.00 to 95.25%, and the 97.5% variants range from 97.50 to 97.75%

There are also some large progressive jackpot games that are only available in a 94% setting.

Woooof

Hi Dogboy001,

Can you confirm if individual coupons can be set to predetermined house edge percentages?

Nate

 

[DogBoy001]

Speaking of picking a prize or spins in this case, are the Texas Tycoon free spins predetermined before the player picks an oil well? Seems 9 out of 10 times I only get 8 spins with the 25 spins oh so close...

There was an issue with display of non-picked prizes, where it was apparently showing non-picked prizes using an even distribution chance, rather than the actual pick prize chance.
This should have been fixed though, and non-picked prizes should use the same probability table as the picked prize.

As with most pick prize features, in order to balance RTP there is not always an equal chance of awarding each possible outcome (e.g.: If a pick may award 2, 3, 5, 10 or 100 free games, it's pretty likely that the chance to get 100 free games is much lower than the chance to get lesser amounts).

Texan Tycoon is in this category.
For a 3 scatter trigger, for instance, there is a much higher chance to get 8, 10 or 15 games versus the 25.
This changes if triggering on 4 scatters, with no chance to get 8 free games, and a good chance to get 25.
On 5 scatters you will always get 25.

Woooof

 

[DogBoy001]

Hi Dogboy001,

Can you confirm if individual coupons can be set to predetermined house edge percentages?

Nate

Since RTP for given games is selectable on a casino-wide basis, not a player-by-player basis, this cannot be done.

Woooof

 

[Nate]

Since RTP for given games is selectable on a casino-wide basis, not a player-by-player basis, this cannot be done.

Woooof

Thanks for the response - Can the Coupon percentage be set? Coupons are obviously not unique to any individual but rather distributed freely.

Nate