Question Reporting Microgaming?

[jasonuk]

To give Microgaming a bit of credit, they have taken multiple stabs at trying to fix the HTML5 client - the first version was painfully bad and the game was unplayable. It's never reached the level of polish the flash version had - but it has got better.

Regarding the bonus, have to remember it had a fairly modest value compared to a lot of modern bonuses - I want to say 35-40x (roughly every 150 spins). I used to play it quite a bit back in the day and I can remember the run of low-paying bonuses as well as some decent ones too - so that itself hasn't changed.

Saying that, be very careful that you're playing the original 96.8% version - not the 2-3 lower RTP versions and not the mega moolah version at a horrendous 88+5%

Regarding the main thread, I guess we'll have to see the data... providers have made mistakes before (in both directions) so it's possible they've screwed something up in the migration from 97% to multi-model. I wouldn't expect to necessarily see spot-on RTP after 25k spins, but -57% seems insanely off - whether that's a genuine fault, a mistake in testing methodology, or something else, I guess we'll have to see.

any one won max win in Microgaming like they advertising MAX WIN £500.000 MAX WIN £325.000 ?

Microgaming and Netent both liked to advertise the maximum win the game could offer in any available configuration - so 12000x at £30 stake would be £360,000. I guess they were taking a nod from Vegas where they sometimes advertise progressive jackpots that aren't necessarily available at all stakes or configurations.

For example, gimped Thunderstruck II on William Hill quotes "win up to £24,000" which is 8000x at £3.

 

[RedPhase]

Book of oz is where its at

If anyone needs the cheat sheet, let me know and I will send it...

 

[RedPhase]

As promised..

 

[RedPhase]

So IR was down for maintenance... XD
10k spins coming up

 

[Valhalla]

So IR was down for maintenance... XD
10k spins coming up

They've seen this thread and decided to tweak it

 

[Seraphita7]

*** UPDATE ***

It looks like we've got the ok for the podcast interview!!

If anyone has any questions pertaining to the behind the scene shenanigans, then kindly post them here.

Goal of the interview is to sort through the myths, seperate rumors from facts and hopefully try to understand the reasoning behind the many processes that take place in that world.

My questions to MG:

- Is it true that the RTP decreases as the bet amount increases? You can be winning like crazy with 0.90p stake, but after increasing your bet, you start to lose like never before

- Does Microgaming offer casinos any panels to change the frequency in which bonuses/fs are obtained? (seems like a stupid question, but trust me I saw enough weird moments regarding the behavior of their slots, and too many people complaining on a same day)

- "Error 212" / "Your session has time out" Many of us have seen these error screens while playing MG slots. They usually appear during a bonus round. Actually, it seems that these errors occur right before a big win. Tampering or just conspiracy nonsense?

- Why when you're on a hot streak you start winning on every MG slot and when you're on a losing streak you start losing on every MG slot, no matter which one you choose ?
Aren't they supposed to be random and independent of each other?
Are the wins and losses of all MG slots somehow connected?

- Can Microgaming determine how much money you can win based on your deposit or balance?

- Why in hell did MG ruined the perfect mathematical model of Thunderstruck 2 and Immortal Romance? It is evident that they no longer behave as they did back in the days. The old mathematical model was not profitable to MG?

- What's the point of hiding the RTP in a Text File? It is the first thing that should be informed to the player. Why MG hides it?

 

[BillyGoldblum]

Any long time players know for a fact MG has changed the returns on all their slots. None of them play anywhere close to what they used to. 3 and 4 reel wild desires are unheard of now. Big bonuses rounds, impossible. Jurassic park has changed a tonne too same with ts2.

Really shameful behavior and its really disappointing because those were some amazing slots. I guess 96% rtp is unacceptable now and they put slots in the high 80's it seems.

 

[RedPhase]

Podcast will be up later today.

Disclaimer!!

There are forces out there greater than we ever thought imaginable, working against the common player.

 

[brianmon]

Podcast will be up later today.

Disclaimer!!

There are forces out there greater than we ever thought imaginable, working against the common player.

Up where???

 

[nfehily]

Podcast will be up later today.

Disclaimer!!

There are forces out there greater than we ever thought imaginable, working against the common player.

More tin foil needed

 

[Valhalla]

Podcast will be up later today.

Disclaimer!!

There are forces out there greater than we ever thought imaginable, working against the common player.

Well? We're waiting...
That was Tuesday, it is now Saturday morning.

 

[Schind]

I wouldn't expect to necessarily see spot-on RTP after 25k spins, but -57% seems insanely off - whether that's a genuine fault, a mistake in testing methodology, or something else, I guess we'll have to see.

I saw an interesting chart on the UKGC website the other day regarding RTP. The lowest amount they mention for testing purposes is 50,000 spins.

I don't know if the chart is common knowledge on here but there are tolerances which go down as the number of spins goes up. They also say that one test in twenty outside the range is acceptable. More than that and the game might be faulty.
The problem is, you can't apply it to all games as the example they give is for a game with a standard deviation of 5.6. More volatile games have a higher tolerance. I have no idea what a 5.6 game is but you'd assume it's a standard number for them to chose as an example.

 

[jasonuk]

I saw an interesting chart on the UKGC website the other day regarding RTP. The lowest amount they mention for testing purposes is 50,000 spins.

The screenshot comes from

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, which appears to be a high-level guide on monitoring RTPs in a live environment. So this is ensuring that a game in production continues to abide by the stated TRTP and variance, rather than what was monitored during the testing phase.

Unfortunately the next section would explain this, if it was actually complete... (yellow highlight mine)

The start of that section talks about the trade-off, a small number of spins will be meaningless, too few could mean excessive monitoring and false positives and too many will mean an error - whether positive or negative - can go undetected for months (or "an unreasonably long time" as the UKGC put it).

Ideally, regulators should be pushing for this information to be made public, based on a flat bet (to reduce skew from less common higher bets). Some casinos do offer this for their own customers, but there will be an element of here be dragons as you need a meaningful sample size - and a lot of less popular games won't meet that threshold.

 

[Seraphita7]

Looks like RedPhase was all talk. Now we will never know the creepy secrets behind microgaming slots

 

[RedPhase]

Sorry for the absence, my daughter moved back in with a broken heart ... and a labrador puppy big as a house. Been a few tumultuous days but I'm picking up from where we left.

Im working on a solution to upload the audiofile, it is massive and I need to take in consideration some people are still paying for bandwidth.

 

[09237653]

a lot of these games have multiple math models now and as with all providers it is becoming increasingly difficult to find the max rtp versions any more.

 

[Seraphita7]

a lot of these games have multiple math models now and as with all providers it is becoming increasingly difficult to find the max rtp versions any more.

Even the 96%RTP versions of microgaming slots are paying really bad lately

 

[RedPhase]

There is a reason why rtp is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Disclosed in the interview.

 

[ritae]

Immortal Romance II is being promoted at some casinos already for its upcoming launch. Max win of 25,000X, remixed soundtracks, and enhanced features.

Stormcraft makes some decent slots but pretty sure this will be let down by low RTPs.

 

[BillyGoldblum]

I wonder where that guy went that used to test 100 features per slot using some type of software. It was cool to see and id love to see it done on microgaming slots. Someone needs to do a study on them because there is something very clearly wrong with them.

When i was streaming I had numerous 500x + hits on pragmatic, some on playngo and pushgaming but never hit anything on MG slots in many years of playing them just as much as the other providers. Last time I hit on MG was prob 3+ years ago and I was playing them daily. It almost became a chase tbh because I was shocked that years went by of playing them daily with nothing above 300x.

 

[Seraphita7]

I wonder where that guy went that used to test 100 features per slot using some type of software. It was cool to see and id love to see it done on microgaming slots. Someone needs to do a study on them because there is something very clearly wrong with them.

When i was streaming I had numerous 500x + hits on pragmatic, some on playngo and pushgaming but never hit anything on MG slots in many years of playing them just as much as the other providers. Last time I hit on MG was prob 3+ years ago and I was playing them daily. It almost became a chase tbh because I was shocked that years went by of playing them daily with nothing above 300x.

I've been gambling a lot at Microgaming slots lately as they are the sole provider of the only regulated online casino in my city (Rosario, Argentina). And I've been noticing some worrying patterns.

Most MG slots generally pay very little in base spins and bonuses. The most you can hope for is 50x (if you're lucky). And lots of dead spins.

However after making several deposits on consecutive days (and losing enough money on their slots), out of nowhere it's like they change your game session and put you in one where the RTP is ridiculously high.

You start to earn a lot, many well-paid bonuses and good prizes in base spins (lots of 5OAK).

Until you reach a balance that doubles or triples your initial deposit. Only then the slots go back to cold mode and stops paying.

What I am describing here has happened to me more than once...

I contacted the community manager of said casino and obviously his answer was the same as always: "MG slots are random. There is no way for us to manipulate their outcome based on deposits and previous spins. They are regulated by ecogra and blah blah blah"

I know that the mind often sees patterns where there are none. But it's a curious case.

Facebook and Instagram page of said casino are full of messages from people complaining about MG slots. Saying that it is impossible to get good bonuses/free spins. That they no longer pay as they used to, and that the deposits do not last long enough as it used to be.

Obviously the casino deletes the messages very fast. But I managed to take screenshots of several of them (at least 15-20 people complaining about the same thing on a single week.) (Also, remember that the number of users of this casino is quite low, since only people who were born in Rosario can bet. So 15-20 ppl isn't a low number at all)

Idk, in my opinion there is something strange going on that we can't see. But it's my word against a respected and "regulated" company. And my evidence ain't even hard.

If the problem comes from the casino or from the provider (microgaming) I've literally no idea

 

[brianmon]

There is a reason why rtp is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Disclosed in the interview.

Still waiting

 

[jasonuk]

When i was streaming I had numerous 500x + hits on pragmatic, some on playngo and pushgaming but never hit anything on MG slots in many years of playing them just as much as the other providers. Last time I hit on MG was prob 3+ years ago and I was playing them daily. It almost became a chase tbh because I was shocked that years went by of playing them daily with nothing above 300x.

I suspect a big part of this is that our collective perception of variance has warped significantly in the past 10 years - particularly in the era of streamers pushing "big wins" through bonus buys and 24/7 play.

When released, Immortal Romance was a spicy proposition, it could throw 200x wins out of nowhere, and Wild Desire could pay 12150x for five wild reels. The thing is, putting that 12000x win aside, it's not that spicy by modern standards - not only are those monster wins suitably rare (I remember a handful of screenshots here on CM over the years), but the wins start thinning rapidly beyond 200x - most of the power is in that 25-250x range.

For example :

• Five Reels of Sarah+Wild, pays 32 ways of 16.6x, 31 of which are doubled = 1050x (plus other wins)
• Four Reels + Sarah pays 516x (16 ways, 15 doubled)
• Three + 2 Sarahs pays 250x (8 ways, 7 doubled)
• Five Scatters pays 200x and a regular bonus
• A wild desire (thankfully they didn't call it a bloody shitstorm after TS2) with four wild reels pays 1350x for Sarah, down to 270x for Nines and Tens (so potentially 1500x-2000x with a premium)
• For the bonuses - not only is that value on the low side by modern standards, but to get the decent hits you generally need a similar setup anyway, added wilds to turn a bad win into a big win are pretty rare.

If Immortal Romance was putting 10-30% of its RTP into those monster pays, then yes you'd be seeing them... but it never has. As someone did with Avalon 2 back in the day, at least for the base game you can process the reel strips and get a feel for the variance. I reckon pretty quickly you'd appreciate it's the players that have changed, rather than the game.

Still waiting

I reckon we'll be waiting for a long time... ? I'm open to hearing what they have to say, but they have to say something first for us to be able to investigate and/or form an opinion!

 

[Jono777]

FWIW. Someone (won't name them, an affiliate) posted a 5 reel wild desire as recent as yesterday on YT.

Normal I don't but could not resist commenting as no way that was real money play, they used to share decent members videos but their latest few video uploads have ironically ALL being max win cap videos

Not even Dunover is THAT spawny

 

[MartiniMan]

Why when these developers are on to something magnificent, popular and successful do they continue to flush it down the toilet?

Shave some RTP the suckers (ummm players) wont know.
Lower the RTP and churn in more cash for operator and game provider. MGS RTP set in stone, I think not!