Random Number Generators - how its implemented

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

I find this really interesting. I hope its ok to post its here, its from another website.

Advice from a Software Engineer

First of all let me introduce myself. I'm new here and I would like to give you my humble opinion about online gambling on roulette (Sorry for my bad english). I'm graduated in Computer Science and System Engineer and in the last 8 years I've been developing software for several companies, including online casinos. As you already know there're several types of RNG. On the past almost all the online casinos were using Pseudo Random Number Generators (learn more in wikipedia). PRNG output numbers based on known seeds (normally a date/time) and it's major flaw is that over time and with historical data you can predict what's the next number that the RNG will output. Since this is a major flaw all the online casinos today moved away from PRNG to True Random Number Generators (if you're curious search Lava Rand in google ). TRNG outputs numbers that isn't correlated with each other, which means that historical data means nothing. a TRNG can output for instance the number 4 indefinitely.So said this I'm kind of risking my reputation with the information that I'll give you (I'll not tell names). Most of the available online casinos doesn't play fair (as you guess it). Online casinos are using Fixed True Random Number Generators, which means that if the casino is losing money they'll manipulate the draw number to not let you win. Most of the time you're not sensible enough to notice that because the casino cannot win all the time so win from time to time. What you must know is that online casinos stipulates a bar of gains (for month for instance) and never let the casino drop below that line. So when the casino is winning money it progressively let you win some hands/money but in the end if the casino is losing you'll eventually lose all your money, because they'll fix the output. Mind that what I'm saying is a very risk statement but I know what I'm talking about. Almost all online casinos doesn't play fair for roulette. So I'm sorry if I break your dream of getting rich gambling in online roulettes. I'm a gambler too and I'm very interested in Cryptography and RNG. So if you're the kind of person (like me) that loves to gamble I suggest that you do it in real casinos. Why ? Simple croupiers can be studied, you can learn how the croupier spin the ball, how many times the ball spin after outputing a number and you can adjust your game to guess the numbers.

I hope that you're clever enough to take my advice in consideration and don't let yourself be fooled by online casinos. I've participated in developing gambling software and I know what I'm talking about.

Thank you for the attention and time.

So call them rigged, weighted or whatever but there is definitely some built-in logic to control payouts.

Would be interested to hear feedback from our casino experts.

 

[uungy]

I find this really interesting. I hope its ok to post its here, its from another website.



So call them rigged, weighted or whatever but there is definitely some built-in logic to control payouts.

Would be interested to hear feedback from our casino experts.

Don't mean to bash here, but why do people always believe what they read

Just because some loser has decided to write some nonsense, with no name signed off, why should it be believed? I would firstky find it hard to believe someone who has a job in this field to let the cat out the bag, so that in the future he will no longer have a job.

Srely there are some unknown softwares, that they use those sytems. CM has a list of them, however softwares such as MG, clearly have a randomness check by third parties.

Also as CM has mentioned before, if its truly random, a casino has the advantage anyway, so why mess with the numbers, it makes no sense.

Thirdly, casinos have many games, he has only "explained" one game of the many available, so where is the case?

Probably some loser who has lost a few dollars on an online roulette, and is trying to "get back" at the online casinos.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: I proabely had/have more recored, "live" Roulette spins than anyone. They come from many different Casinos/On Line and here in Vegas. They are from many different types of RNG Software providers.

First off, If the RNG is going to cheat there are only 2 ways to do it.
1. See your betting pattern, and select a losing color/number before you spin. or
2. Have the ability to pick the winning #/color After you have made the bet, and after you hit the Spin Button.

The second method would make the game unbeatable at any time the Casino choose it to be so.
The first method would work on most players, But.........There are enough players who do what i do, AND WE WOULD SET THEM UP SO FAST, That Bankruptcy of online Casino's would skyrocket.

It does not do a Casino any good to have a player Win thousands of $, make them lose a thousand $, watch them win thousands of $, make them lose a thousand $, ect. The player is just getting farther and farther ahead.

The advantage of recording spins is establishing what happens in a given set of spins, and betting accordingly. If that Pattern were to suddenly change, and stay changed after 10's of thousands of sets, then he would be right.

Example: After 111 spins the following always happens.
A. At least 1 number will hit 6 or more times.
B. A min of 3 numbers, with and average of 6 numbers will hit 5 times.
C. A few numbers will not hit at all, or only hit 1 time.
D. Betting numbers based on how many times they had hit, using a 4 step flat bet or progression, yields a %66 Hit % on bets 1 thru 4.
and some other stuff.

This is Years of recorded data, and how i play Roulette in Vegas, and on the Internet. For me to start losing On-Line, this pattern if you will, would have to change completely, and stay changed, And if it did, I would know it.

So, Based on my data, I have to Disagree.

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

Thirdly, casinos have many games, he has only "explained" one game of the many available, so where is the case?

My impression was that he first explained how RNG works in online casinos in general. He mentioned roulette because it was posted in Roulette Chat thread.

some loser has decided to write some nonsense, with no name signed off

the web site has his name, his online name like we all do. Of course he would not sign this with his real name.

 

[LaurieJim]

Its all interesting to read but for this gambling slot loving girl, i want to push that spin button and sit back and relax, while waiting for lady luck to show her ass up, i can assure you the last thing on my mind while playing online, is RNG patterns. ....................laurie

 

[funky_seagull]

I think that there is something not quite right with online roulette. I don't know what the truth about it is... but it is dodgy alright....

 

[SlotMonster]

Folks, play at casinos with Randomness Control and forget about this sh**t

 

[Rhyzz]

It's as simple as this...

You will never get a PC to recreate the randomness of a deck of cards. A PC has to think to perform an action, therefore nothing it does is ever truely random, HOWEVER, these casino's are as random as technically possible, IE) The operator has absolutely no control over who wins or loses, it's all a game of percentages. Remember that these Casino games have a house edge built into the rules and this is where a Casino makes money, so forget about the randomness stuff because it'll just baffle your head.

So long as a Casino willingly publishes it's payout percentages to prove they're within reason (anything above 95%) then I'm happy that they're running a legit operation.

 

[Rusty]

I think there is some misunderstanding as to what an RNG is.

There are pseudo RNG's that use computers CPU real time clock as the seed but eventually the sequence will repeat itself (hence pseudo)

Obviously this is of no use to a Casino as it can be exploited so they use hardware RNG's.
There are many different types of hardware RNG but basically they generate random numbers from physical processes.
Obviously these processes themselves need to be random but they could be based on atmospheric noise for example.
see www.random.org for some interesting reading.
There are many other low cost hardware solutions but truly random systems appear at the subatomic level such as thermal noise or radioactive decay.

Where the real misunderstanding is though is that this RNG needs to be manipulated in order to influence the results.
This is not necessary or even desirable though because if you wanted to weight the results you would still want to maintain as larger element of randomness as possible in order to disguise the weighting.

So as an example you may have an RNG that provides an equal chance of generating a number from 1 to 10 (but you want to weight the 1 so that is more unlikely)
All you need do is throw the result away when a 1 is generated and receive another random number.
It may be that a 1 is generated again and depending on how unlikely you wanted a 1 to be the result you could set the number of times to ignore this result and get another.

This is not the way Casinos would weight their games, it is far too clumsy and simplistic, I am just using it as an example of how the RNG can maintain its integrity and yet the result still be compromised.

I am not going to go into the multitude of ways that weighting can be and is used by Casinos but all 3 reel slots are weighted (this does not mean rigged) and this accepted practice.
For some reason I have yet to understand why people are not ready to accept that 5 reel slots can be and are also weighted.

The big distinction to make here is that a weighted slot can still be fair but a dynamically weighted slot is unfair.
The distinction being that the probability of outcome can be altered from game to game by the use of dynamic weighting.

As a further insight into RNG's, here is a link to iTech labs evaluation results for an Australian operators RNG.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[winbig]

Online casinos are using Fixed True Random Number Generators, which means that if the casino is losing money they'll manipulate the draw number to not let you win

If this was the case, then ALL casinos using that RNG would be affected, not just one casino that decided to cheat. I seriously doubt that ANY casino operator has access to the RNG that is being used, whether they're RTG, MG, Rival, etc.

 

[vinylweatherman]

WHY did he post this in a ROULETTE thread in the first place. The reason you cannot win at online roulette has NOTHING to do with it being "rigged" in any way, it is down to the fact that after the RNG part of the process, everything is done with maximum efficiency perfection, after all, a MACHINE is doing it. You CAN win at B & M roulette, as he claims, provided there is an imperfection in the wheel, or indeed the croupier. In this case, past data IS relevant, and CAN be used to beat the casino in the sort term. To counter this, B & M casinos will switch the roulette wheels around so regular players will not notce that their "special" unbalanced wheel is not where it is supposed to be, and will bet the wrong strategy accordingly. Croupiers should be replaced regularly, so they do not go into "zombie mode" and robotically spin and release the ball with almost the same strength each time - THIS is how you can win by watching the point of release, and quickly betting so many quarters around the wheel past this, with the bias enough to make the bets +EV (till the pitboss catches on & replaces the croupier).

A friend of mine knows a "professional Roulette player" who told me this system, although I already knew of it. He was either banned, or they swiched the wheels. Once, he lost his winnings back because they switched "his" wheel to another table, and it was too late by the time he figured it out.

An example of "fixed" random number games is the humble UK Fruit Machine. These employ software that does not allow payouts to exceed the target set over the medium to long term. The problem though is that by "cheating", many of these machines were exploitable simply by knowing in advance the code was attempting to "cheat" you, and playing in patterns so bizarre that the coders simply had not "trapped" for any consequential errors. The simplest of these methods is "forcing", anyone can do it The art is knowing WHEN to "go for it", and WHEN to "let someone else fill it up a bit more".

 

[RobWin]

WHY did he post this in a ROULETTE thread in the first place. The reason you cannot win at online roulette has NOTHING to do with it being "rigged" in any way, it is down to the fact that after the RNG part of the process, everything is done with maximum efficiency perfection, after all, a MACHINE is doing it. You CAN win at B & M roulette, as he claims, provided there is an imperfection in the wheel, or indeed the croupier. In this case, past data IS relevant, and CAN be used to beat the casino in the sort term. To counter this, B & M casinos will switch the roulette wheels around so regular players will not notce that their "special" unbalanced wheel is not where it is supposed to be, and will bet the wrong strategy accordingly. Croupiers should be replaced regularly, so they do not go into "zombie mode" and robotically spin and release the ball with almost the same strength each time - THIS is how you can win by watching the point of release, and quickly betting so many quarters around the wheel past this, with the bias enough to make the bets +EV (till the pitboss catches on & replaces the croupier).
A friend of mine knows a "professional Roulette player" who told me this system, although I already knew of it. He was either banned, or they swiched the wheels. Once, he lost his winnings back because they switched "his" wheel to another table, and it was too late by the time he figured it out.

An example of "fixed" random number games is the humble UK Fruit Machine. These employ software that does not allow payouts to exceed the target set over the medium to long term. The problem though is that by "cheating", many of these machines were exploitable simply by knowing in advance the code was attempting to "cheat" you, and playing in patterns so bizarre that the coders simply had not "trapped" for any consequential errors. The simplest of these methods is "forcing", anyone can do it The art is knowing WHEN to "go for it", and WHEN to "let someone else fill it up a bit more".

Jeeze Vinyl, are you kidding here or what man? You write some good tips and posts most of the time but this is not one of them...

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

Online casinos are using Fixed True Random Number Generators, which means that if the casino is losing money they'll manipulate the draw number to not let you win

If this was the case, then ALL casinos using that RNG would be affected, not just one casino that decided to cheat. I seriously doubt that ANY casino operator has access to the RNG that is being used, whether they're RTG, MG, Rival, etc.

no, casino operators do not have access to RNG, its all done in software and by software they are using.

 

[AussieDave]

Like B&M casinos online casinos can also alter the pay-outs of slots from their back office admin suite.

Cheers
T

 

[spearmaster]

Jeeze Vinyl, are you kidding here or what man? You write some good tips and posts most of the time but this is not one of them...

Actually, VWM is right, but we're talking about methods that generally don't work any more because no bets are allowed once the ball has been released. All of the B&M casinos I've been to in recent years enforce this rule.

Like B&M casinos online casinos can also alter the pay-outs of slots from their back office admin suite.

That may be possible in some online casino software admins, but I can 100% assure you this is not the case in all online casino software admins.

 

[GrandMaster]

Like B&M casinos online casinos can also alter the pay-outs of slots from their back office admin suite.

Cheers
T

This was made legal in Nevada quite recently, I have no idea about other jursidictions. For most slot machines, changing the payout still involves opening up the machine and changing a chip.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: In Las Vegas you can make bets well AFTER the ball has been released, a few turns around the wheel. Only when it is getting ready to slow down will they wave their hand across the table and say, "No more bets".

As far as wheel tracking goes, there is a so much easier way to do it. If the wheel is biased, or there is a dealer signature, or just plain luck, to cause the ball to be hitting a certain section of the wheel more often that the odds say, "Who cares what makes it happen", just bet that sector of the wheel.

Some numbers will always hit more than others. If they happened to be grouped on a certain part of the layout, bet there. If they happened to be grouped on a certain section of the Wheel, bet there.

 

[spearmaster]

Hiya: In Las Vegas you can make bets well AFTER the ball has been released, a few turns around the wheel. Only when it is getting ready to slow down will they wave their hand across the table and say, "No more bets".

Since I haven't played in Vegas recently I guess it must still be true there However, in Macau, the UK, and Holland, betting is complete once the ball is released - even with the automated machines.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Without bias ...

I refer readers here to:

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This is worth reading.

Operators I have assisted or audited all use RNGs that pass these tests. Some insist on further tests beyond these.

I cannot attest for all developers or vendors, but those I have worked with (and that's a lot of them) use highly tested and fair RNGs.

 

[casinojack]

Sigh, this is what players say, "It is fixed", usually when loosing right ? I have said it to, lol

Think of this please:

1. Yes, might be a few shady guys out there, but they tiny. AS an op, we want people to win! If you win, you come back, over and over, and the laws of gambling work to the OP's favor.

2. Live casinos - then you don't need to worry

3. Have fun!

 

[aka23]

I find this really interesting. I hope its ok to post its here, its from another website.



So call them rigged, weighted or whatever but there is definitely some built-in logic to control payouts.

Would be interested to hear feedback from our casino experts.

The quote says it is his "opinion" and gives no evidence of that opinion, other than being a SW engineer. This doesn't make a convincing argument.

Contrary to popular opinion, if a casino wanted to cheat, there are far easier ways than manipulating the random number generator. If a casino was cheating, I'd expect it to still use a fair PRNG. However, they would implement the PRNG in a way that favored the casino, rather than a way that correctly modeled the listed game. In a simple game without rare high payouts, like roulette, it would be fairly easy for a player to manually check whether the orginal poster's comments a true by recording some data and checking if results fell within reasonable variance or not.

 

[AussieDave]

That may be possible in some online casino software admins, but I can 100% assure you this is not the case in all online casino software admins.

Which ones can not be manipulated?

Cheers
T

 

[aka23]

Which ones can not be manipulated?

Cheers
T

It depends how you define "manipulated." For example, your original post mentioned admins being able to modify slot payouts. As I understand it, the RTG admin panel gives operators a choice of 3 payouts for their slots. However, most other well known softwares do not have such options, to my knowledge.

The original poster's comments about about modifying results to reach a desired max payout sounds like it was inspired by Start-Your-Casino / iXent software, which is known to be non-random. They have advertised the software to buyers by stating essentially the same thing as the quoted post:

"OUR PROPRIETARY RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR IS CALCULATING YOUR PROFIT BEFORE THE WINNING/LOOSING NUMBER IS SENT BACK TO THE GAME. YOU CAN SET A MINIMUM PROFIT THAT IS ALWAYS KEPT FOR YOU! THIS ALSO ENSURES THAT YOU WILLNOT WAKE UP WITH $20000 DEBTS!"

If you contact them and request an admin demo, you can see the exact options. Note that Start-Your-Casino / iXent software is the exception, not the rule. One can note obvious differences between play results on this software and the larger, well known ones.

 

[nickadon]

Randomness?

To me, its just pointless for any casino to try to intervene in the setup of the games. In the long run, they win: 2,6% in roulette, 1,6% in blackjack, 20+ % in slots, etc. And this is if you are not carried away and throw your fortune in. If you stay calm and play 5 euro each time in roulette, if you have 200 euro, you will be able to wager, say 2000 euros in 2 hours, and you will lose something like 30 euros. If you multiply by 1000 people a day (and thats very small, i think), this is 30000 / day, only from roulette. Theres no need to try to fix it...

Of course, there are those who will lose 500 in just 5 or 10 spins. In that case, you dont have time to let the numbers come your way and you will lose even bigger...

 

[jan.strydom]

It's as simple as this...

You will never get a PC to recreate the randomness of a deck of cards. A PC has to think to perform an action, therefore nothing it does is ever truely random, HOWEVER, these casino's are as random as technically possible, IE) The operator has absolutely no control over who wins or loses, it's all a game of percentages. Remember that these Casino games have a house edge built into the rules and this is where a Casino makes money, so forget about the randomness stuff because it'll just baffle your head.

So long as a Casino willingly publishes it's payout percentages to prove they're within reason (anything above 95%) then I'm happy that they're running a legit operation.

Spot on!!!

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

To me, its just pointless for any casino to try to intervene in the setup of the games. In the long run, they win: 2,6% in roulette, 1,6% in blackjack, 20+ % in slots, etc.

true but what I am curious about if desired percentage can be archived just based on math and RNGs or there is some other rules built around it? This is more related to the software itself and not casino operations.

I am not saying they are cheating, but my personal impression is that there are some manipulations.

Perhaps i need to spend some time to do some more research instead of playing lol.

thx for your replies!

 

[AussieDave]

My opinion is that no one can give a 100% guarantee that any online casino game, from any software provider is or is not open to being manipulated at any point in time.

Even eCogra wont stand by their own sealed casinos. Is that because they don't monitor them 24/7? Or is it because they know something we don't:
YYYhttp://www.ecogra.com/approved.aspx?OP=P (bottom of page)
Expired Image


Cheers
T

 

[spearmaster]

My observation was with respect to an operator, not about a software manufacturer.

Plus, eCOGRA does not accredit software - it accredits casino operations. You can take its statement to mean that it cannot be responsible for any intended or unintended change in the software which causes a casino or casinos to temporarily or permanently not meet the eCOGRA standards.

Certainly there is no guarantee that a software manufacturer could make a change to the outcome of a game - intentionally or not. However, any anomaly in the past has been quickly spotted by players so you can assume that any popular software would not be so likely to manipulate its software in such a manner.

 

[AussieDave]

eCOGRA does not accredit software - it accredits casino operations.

With all due respect Spear that's semantics.

If it wasn't for the gaming software eCogra Sealed casinos (or any casino for that matter) would have no casino operations

Besides eCogra also seal game audits.
Last time I checked these games are part of the software.

Quote taken from a eCogra sealed casino:
"The eCOGRA payout certificates are now available by clicking on the 'eCOGRA Safe and Fair' logo below."



Cheers
T

edit: sorry for the derail of topic. Maybe it's better moved to its own thread, thanks!

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

With all due respect Spear that's semantics.

If it wasn't for the gaming software eCogra Sealed casinos (or any casino for that matter) would have no casino operations

Besides eCogra also seal game audits.

Accredited operators should mean using accredited software or may be it should not....

 

[AussieDave]

Of all the casino software available these days I trust MG the most.

However what narks me to no end is statements like "eCOGRA Safe and Fair", when in retrospect eCogra does not & will not stand by their own statement(s).

Expired Image

It's either black or it's white. In this case there is NO grey area, least in my book there shouldn't be.


Cheers
T

 

[spearmaster]

With all due respect Spear that's semantics.

Not semantics. There is a big difference between an operator being able to change payouts or modify the game, and the manufacturer doing so across all its operators.

eCOGRA accredits casinos. While part of its process entails analysis of the software, ultimately not every casino using the software is an eCOGRA member, nor is the software manufacturer a member.

It boils down to this - eCOGRA are in no position to ensure the fairness of the software 100% of the time, nor are they able to guarantee that the software of any casino it accredits is fair 100% of the time. All they can do is "best effort".

eCOGRA merely confirms that a member meets minimum standards of fairness and integrity. There is no way that they can ensure any 100% figure without being in full control of the software and the operator and players should not automatically assume otherwise.

An auditor cannot ensure 100% compliance with every regulation of a listed company - it can only confirm that it meets the minimum standards and that in their reasoned opinion, the books of the company are accurate and properly prepared. eCOGRA is no different.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Jeeze Vinyl, are you kidding here or what man? You write some good tips and posts most of the time but this is not one of them...

It's more the quoted software engineer I was critical of, not the messenger. When someone posts this in a Roulette thread, it looks like one of those "Magic Roulette Systems" that are being peddled nearly everywhere.
B & M is different, it is a PHYSICAL process, and subject to imperfections, however a computational process is infinitely repeatable. The software RNG is what it is, good or "poor" (or pseudo).
Many suckers are being taken in by these various systems. The Cipher blackjack software was one of them, and the last I heard was that Cipher had set up "labs" to play online casinos using his system, LOST all his "investor's money", and "done a runner".

The software engineer should really have opened a thread about RNGs, not placed it in a Roulette thread. The MESSENGER did just this, making this thread about RNGs, not "systems" to beat casinos.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Of all the casino software available these days I trust MG the most.

However what narks me to no end is statements like "eCOGRA Safe and Fair", when in retrospect eCogra does not & will not stand by their own statement(s).

Expired Image

It's either black or it's white. In this case there is NO grey area, least in my book there shouldn't be.


Cheers
T

This is one of those legal "a$$ covering" statements rather than eCogra having anything to hide. It covers them against being sued for an individual incident relating to one of their accredited casinos. There have been cases where operations have moved VERY quickly from meeting eCogra standards to not meeting them in a big way. TUSK was the biggest recent incident, with eCogra stripping them of their seals, and them later going bust. IF they didn't have such a legal "escape clause", there would be lawyers trying to sue them for "consequential losses" as a result of some poker players not being able to get their money out in time. Had Absolute Poker managed to con it's way into getting an eCogra seal, there might have been a similar circumstance where eCogra could not have known until too late that insiders were cheating. Such lawsuits, if successful, can bankrupt this kind of organisation, thus leaving players with no continuing monitoring at the 99% or so of other seal holders.

Most organisations, and businesses, will have these liability limitation clauses, such that they cannot be held liable to pay damages for an event that was outside of their control. It would be up to any lawsuit to first establish the legality of such an "escape clause" before suing for damages.

When such an "escape clause" is missing the legal jargon, THAT is the time to be smelling the proverbial Rat.

 

[CasinoWebCam]

my 2 cents:

If you suspect the online casino you're playing at is rigged, you might consider taking a break from playing.

If you want to play casino games online and eliminate the random number generator, give live dealer gaming online a try.

Adam
CasinoWebCam

 

[Grey]

I find this really interesting. I hope its ok to post its here, its from another website.



So call them rigged, weighted or whatever but there is definitely some built-in logic to control payouts.

Would be interested to hear feedback from our casino experts.

I read on another forum that some software providers may set a payouts for games.I guess that this is unfair, because the payouts are derived from the rules of games.
There is one system which allow to the players to check RNG and to check that the cards and their arrangement are completely random and have no connection to the size of your bet.
Also Randomness controll system allow to change the series generated by RNG before the game started. You can read more about this system here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[funky_seagull]

I've done some testing of my own on microgaming and playtech this past week.

I basically did this, I flatbetted on the even outside bets one after the other. I bet one unit on 1-18, then after this I bet one unit on even, then one unit on red, then one unit on black, then one unit on odd, then one unit on 19-36, then went back in reverse, from odd, to black, to red, to even, to 1-18 and then forward again. I basically just flatbetted on one outside bet, moving from one to the next after each spin, and didn't change my betsize at any point. Sometimes I experienced long losing runs, other times I experienced long winning runs, and other times it was a zigzag experience, but it all seemed to level out. It was extremely boring, but after what must have been thousands of bets, I ended up with roughly the same starting balance give or take a few units and hadn't really lost anything.

The results of this experiment seem to show the RNG was fair...

It got me thinking that perhaps the reason online games are so difficult is because they are random. If something is completely random it is impossible to predict the outcome and therefore impossible to beat. Therefore I think a software developer and casino operator would be keen for their games to be as random as possible... randomness is a casinos friend. So it doesn't really make any sense for them to rig the games...