Random Number Generators - how its implemented

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

To me, its just pointless for any casino to try to intervene in the setup of the games. In the long run, they win: 2,6% in roulette, 1,6% in blackjack, 20+ % in slots, etc.

true but what I am curious about if desired percentage can be archived just based on math and RNGs or there is some other rules built around it? This is more related to the software itself and not casino operations.

I am not saying they are cheating, but my personal impression is that there are some manipulations.

Perhaps i need to spend some time to do some more research instead of playing lol.

thx for your replies!

 

[AussieDave]

My opinion is that no one can give a 100% guarantee that any online casino game, from any software provider is or is not open to being manipulated at any point in time.

Even eCogra wont stand by their own sealed casinos. Is that because they don't monitor them 24/7? Or is it because they know something we don't:
YYYhttp://www.ecogra.com/approved.aspx?OP=P (bottom of page)
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Cheers
T

 

[spearmaster]

My observation was with respect to an operator, not about a software manufacturer.

Plus, eCOGRA does not accredit software - it accredits casino operations. You can take its statement to mean that it cannot be responsible for any intended or unintended change in the software which causes a casino or casinos to temporarily or permanently not meet the eCOGRA standards.

Certainly there is no guarantee that a software manufacturer could make a change to the outcome of a game - intentionally or not. However, any anomaly in the past has been quickly spotted by players so you can assume that any popular software would not be so likely to manipulate its software in such a manner.

 

[AussieDave]

eCOGRA does not accredit software - it accredits casino operations.

With all due respect Spear that's semantics.

If it wasn't for the gaming software eCogra Sealed casinos (or any casino for that matter) would have no casino operations

Besides eCogra also seal game audits.
Last time I checked these games are part of the software.

Quote taken from a eCogra sealed casino:
"The eCOGRA payout certificates are now available by clicking on the 'eCOGRA Safe and Fair' logo below."



Cheers
T

edit: sorry for the derail of topic. Maybe it's better moved to its own thread, thanks!

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

With all due respect Spear that's semantics.

If it wasn't for the gaming software eCogra Sealed casinos (or any casino for that matter) would have no casino operations

Besides eCogra also seal game audits.

Accredited operators should mean using accredited software or may be it should not....

 

[AussieDave]

Of all the casino software available these days I trust MG the most.

However what narks me to no end is statements like "eCOGRA Safe and Fair", when in retrospect eCogra does not & will not stand by their own statement(s).

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It's either black or it's white. In this case there is NO grey area, least in my book there shouldn't be.


Cheers
T

 

[spearmaster]

With all due respect Spear that's semantics.

Not semantics. There is a big difference between an operator being able to change payouts or modify the game, and the manufacturer doing so across all its operators.

eCOGRA accredits casinos. While part of its process entails analysis of the software, ultimately not every casino using the software is an eCOGRA member, nor is the software manufacturer a member.

It boils down to this - eCOGRA are in no position to ensure the fairness of the software 100% of the time, nor are they able to guarantee that the software of any casino it accredits is fair 100% of the time. All they can do is "best effort".

eCOGRA merely confirms that a member meets minimum standards of fairness and integrity. There is no way that they can ensure any 100% figure without being in full control of the software and the operator and players should not automatically assume otherwise.

An auditor cannot ensure 100% compliance with every regulation of a listed company - it can only confirm that it meets the minimum standards and that in their reasoned opinion, the books of the company are accurate and properly prepared. eCOGRA is no different.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Jeeze Vinyl, are you kidding here or what man? You write some good tips and posts most of the time but this is not one of them...

It's more the quoted software engineer I was critical of, not the messenger. When someone posts this in a Roulette thread, it looks like one of those "Magic Roulette Systems" that are being peddled nearly everywhere.
B & M is different, it is a PHYSICAL process, and subject to imperfections, however a computational process is infinitely repeatable. The software RNG is what it is, good or "poor" (or pseudo).
Many suckers are being taken in by these various systems. The Cipher blackjack software was one of them, and the last I heard was that Cipher had set up "labs" to play online casinos using his system, LOST all his "investor's money", and "done a runner".

The software engineer should really have opened a thread about RNGs, not placed it in a Roulette thread. The MESSENGER did just this, making this thread about RNGs, not "systems" to beat casinos.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Of all the casino software available these days I trust MG the most.

However what narks me to no end is statements like "eCOGRA Safe and Fair", when in retrospect eCogra does not & will not stand by their own statement(s).

Expired Image

It's either black or it's white. In this case there is NO grey area, least in my book there shouldn't be.


Cheers
T

This is one of those legal "a$$ covering" statements rather than eCogra having anything to hide. It covers them against being sued for an individual incident relating to one of their accredited casinos. There have been cases where operations have moved VERY quickly from meeting eCogra standards to not meeting them in a big way. TUSK was the biggest recent incident, with eCogra stripping them of their seals, and them later going bust. IF they didn't have such a legal "escape clause", there would be lawyers trying to sue them for "consequential losses" as a result of some poker players not being able to get their money out in time. Had Absolute Poker managed to con it's way into getting an eCogra seal, there might have been a similar circumstance where eCogra could not have known until too late that insiders were cheating. Such lawsuits, if successful, can bankrupt this kind of organisation, thus leaving players with no continuing monitoring at the 99% or so of other seal holders.

Most organisations, and businesses, will have these liability limitation clauses, such that they cannot be held liable to pay damages for an event that was outside of their control. It would be up to any lawsuit to first establish the legality of such an "escape clause" before suing for damages.

When such an "escape clause" is missing the legal jargon, THAT is the time to be smelling the proverbial Rat.

 

[CasinoWebCam]

my 2 cents:

If you suspect the online casino you're playing at is rigged, you might consider taking a break from playing.

If you want to play casino games online and eliminate the random number generator, give live dealer gaming online a try.

Adam
CasinoWebCam

 

[Grey]

I find this really interesting. I hope its ok to post its here, its from another website.



So call them rigged, weighted or whatever but there is definitely some built-in logic to control payouts.

Would be interested to hear feedback from our casino experts.

I read on another forum that some software providers may set a payouts for games.I guess that this is unfair, because the payouts are derived from the rules of games.
There is one system which allow to the players to check RNG and to check that the cards and their arrangement are completely random and have no connection to the size of your bet.
Also Randomness controll system allow to change the series generated by RNG before the game started. You can read more about this system here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[funky_seagull]

I've done some testing of my own on microgaming and playtech this past week.

I basically did this, I flatbetted on the even outside bets one after the other. I bet one unit on 1-18, then after this I bet one unit on even, then one unit on red, then one unit on black, then one unit on odd, then one unit on 19-36, then went back in reverse, from odd, to black, to red, to even, to 1-18 and then forward again. I basically just flatbetted on one outside bet, moving from one to the next after each spin, and didn't change my betsize at any point. Sometimes I experienced long losing runs, other times I experienced long winning runs, and other times it was a zigzag experience, but it all seemed to level out. It was extremely boring, but after what must have been thousands of bets, I ended up with roughly the same starting balance give or take a few units and hadn't really lost anything.

The results of this experiment seem to show the RNG was fair...

It got me thinking that perhaps the reason online games are so difficult is because they are random. If something is completely random it is impossible to predict the outcome and therefore impossible to beat. Therefore I think a software developer and casino operator would be keen for their games to be as random as possible... randomness is a casinos friend. So it doesn't really make any sense for them to rig the games...