Providers moving the goal posts

[snorky510238]

The only direct question I can see on reading back through is that because money laundering has taken place (your words) do I think all Casinos are bent? Yes or no?

No of course not but I didn’t say they were. I simply said a huge amount of money will have been laundered through online gambling.

A simple statement that didn’t imply ALL CASINOS, ANY SPECIFIC AMOUNT, ANY PERCENTAGE OF INDUSTRY TURNOVER or anything else specific. A statement that if yourself and @trancemonkey read back through your replies have both agreed has happened.

 

[goatwack]

The only direct question I can see on reading back through is that because money laundering has taken place (your words) do I think all Casinos are bent? Yes or no?

No of course not but I didn’t say they were. I simply said a huge amount of money will have been laundered through online gambling.

A simple statement that didn’t imply ALL CASINOS, ANY SPECIFIC AMOUNT, ANY PERCENTAGE OF INDUSTRY TURNOVER or anything else specific. A statement that if yourself and @trancemonkey read back through your replies have both agreed has happened.

Could you be more specific? and answer the question?

 

[Halvor]

Large scale money laundering in Igaming makes no sense. There's a multitude of industries where it's not only easier but more profitable.

You claim it involves a huge amount of money in the sector, but there's no facts backing up your claim.

 

[snorky510238]

Well we will have to agree to disagree based on the fact you cannot provide a reliable figure either.

Conclusion neither of us can back up what we are saying with proof one way or the other.

 

[Halvor]

Well we will have to agree to disagree based on the fact you cannot provide a reliable figure either.

Conclusion neither of us can back up what we are saying with proof one way or the other.

Except that I can, because there are no indications, claims or proof that the igaming sector face severe issues with money laundering. Actually it's compared to other industries fairly low risk.

On the other hand your only backing to your claim seems to be your own perception that it is.

It's even less based on reality than all the tinfoil RTP claims it this thread.

 

[Slottery]

Large scale money laundering in Igaming makes no sense. There's a multitude of industries where it's not only easier but more profitable.

You claim it involves a huge amount of money in the sector, but there's no facts backing up your claim.

Don't know how to define "large scale" but there's no question that professional money laundering have happened in igaming business. For many even this one incident can be counted at least remarkable amount of money:

"One billion euros’ worth of assets seized across 12 countries included luxury apartments and a football team "

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Igaming like most of industries are not free from criminal activities and therefore there are quite strict regulations which mostly are much deeper than monitor player accounts but ownerships, where money is coming/going etc... There are multiple incidents and investigations during years about these activities have been existing and could be assumed that there always are some who try to complete their activities where finding way to do it.

But start to be quite far from threads topic about game providers.

 

[trancemonkey]

Large scale money laundering in Igaming makes no sense. There's a multitude of industries where it's not only easier but more profitable.

You claim it involves a huge amount of money in the sector, but there's no facts backing up your claim.

Also, it should be noted that they weren't fined FOR money laundering, just that they didn't have the correct checks and balances in to fully prevent it (as far as the requirements went)

I don't recall any talk of actual money laundering...

 

[goatwack]

I just find it hilariously curious how members that have used half their post quota on this thread alone in 1.5 years and, residing in Malta, come out to proclaim the Casino Industry as beyond reproach whilst ridiculing those with differing views!

All this hailing from what is and always has been one of - if not the- most corrupt industries in the world where criminal activity would be rife.

And yes that would include a large percentage of money laundering as it's undoubtedly been the favoured method, or else we wouldn't have had casinos 'implement' these AML regs......which are incidentally to the detriment of your '£20 a week' player whilst money laundering goes on on an industrial scale regardless.

But yes, "Tin foil"

 

[ternur]

Are you forgetting these fines were handed out last year. A good 15 years after online gaming became so popular.

Do you really think the Gambling Commission would be implementing these rules if money laundering wasn’t a major concern?

The UKGC, and governments in general, mostly follow FATF guidance documents and recommendations regarding money laundering. These are usually behind the AML regulations these days. AML in the online gambling sector really started to be an issue after the 4th AMLD.

 

[Guntis]

In general, from the beginning of the time, all gambling business has been controlled by the mafia and criminals (pretty much the same as prostitution).

Nowadays, everything is still the same but very well hidden from unwanted people.

I reckon out there are plenty of unregulated or poorly regulated online casinos which have been created for the money laundering purposes only.

 

[trancemonkey]

In general, from the beginning of the time, all gambling business has been controlled by the mafia and criminals (pretty much the same as prostitution).

Nowadays, everything is still the same but very well hidden from unwanted people.

I reckon out here are plenty of unregulated or poorly regulated online casinos which have been created for the money laundering purposes only.

I work for the mafia? I never knew...

 

[Guntis]

I work for the mafia? I never knew...

And probably will never know!

 

[trancemonkey]

I just find it hilariously curious how members that have used half their post quota on this thread alone in 1.5 years and, residing in Malta, come out to proclaim the Casino Industry as beyond reproach whilst ridiculing those with differing views!

All this hailing from what is and always has been one of - if not the- most corrupt industries in the world where criminal activity would be rife.

And yes that would include a large percentage of money laundering as it's undoubtedly been the favoured method, or else we wouldn't have had casinos 'implement' these AML regs......which are incidentally to the detriment of your '£20 a week' player whilst money laundering goes on on an industrial scale regardless.

But yes, "Tin foil"

Oh goat... I don't think Halvor is saying there is no money laundering... in times gone by, I'm sure it was a huge issue across the industry. I would still argue that nowadays, in regulated markets, it is far less prevalent than it was. But in no way am I, or Halvor, saying it categorically doesn't happen. I'm sure it does... but gambling is a terrible way of laundering money.

 

[trancemonkey]

I work for the mafia? I never knew...

As long as they keep paying me, I will ask no questions

 

[goatwack]

Oh goat... I don't think Halvor is saying there is no money laundering... in times gone by, I'm sure it was a huge issue across the industry. I would still argue that nowadays, in regulated markets, it is far less prevalent than it was. But in no way am I, or Halvor, saying it categorically doesn't happen. I'm sure it does... but gambling is a terrible way of laundering money.

What you talking about sir? I've been laundering money this way for years!

 

[paul7388]

So glad they now have polymer notes as last time i tried to launder money it just came out a large piece of mush.

 

[goatwack]

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[Lemon]

So glad they now have polymer notes as last time i tried to launder money it just came out a large piece of mush.

Too much softener.

 

[Guntis]

As long as they keep paying me, I will ask no questions

Your reply reminded me of a manager from Hippodrome Casino in Leicester Square.

A year or so ago I was a frequent visitor there and one evening the casino manager comes to me and says: on your next visit, bring proof of your income, please...

So on the next time, to prevent myself from being asked to leave the casino, I prepared payslips for the last 3 months and went to Hippodrome again.

The day was lucky and I was on my way to the cash desk to exchange their chips for money. At the cash desk, I explained a cashier on what has happened on last time and passed my payslips to her. She asked to wait and called a manager.

The manager was in his late 60, shook my hand, thanked for my payslips and said that earlier lads used to come to the casino with bags of money and nobody of us ever asked them where that money comes from.

 

[Aryol]

This is a brilliant post, if the idea of it was to prove you have zero idea how taxation on casinos works

Can you explain it a bit more? I am surely willing to understand, but why can two casinos that give me the option to play there have two different RTP Settings? Does the pay different taxes? Is the tax is not payed on the revenue?

I know there also something about no deposit and taxes, but I doubt that this changes much.

 

[Siohmy]

Which is obviously because it was happening not because it wasn’t happening.

Not strictly. Over recent years a hell of a lot more regulations have been implemented across a wide range of financial industries. I worked for an insurance firm and money laundering, and how to spot it, made up a significant part of tests you had to take. The fines for not taking adequate steps are eye watering, can run to millions and can put everyone behind bars in extreme, albeit unlikely, cases.

All companies are needing to improve their processes in this respect. Online gambling haven’t suddenly got tough because money laundering may have occurred (it inevitably did) but more simply falling into line with the entire financial industry.

How genuinely big of a problem this was in the past I don’t know. Suspect it was a drop in the ocean compared with the money passing through casinos,

 

[Siohmy]

Moving goalposts? Sequel to Reel Rush at a full 1.5% lower RTP. Actually, most new releases around the 95.5% and lower RTP. Say what you like about BTG but at least they are genuinely sticking to their 96%+ RTP. For what it’s worth I actually quite like Reel Rush 2 although haven’t played it too much. NetEnts slant on Lil Devil bonus structure at first glance.

 

[Kroffe]

Moving goalposts? Sequel to Reel Rush at a full 1.5% lower RTP. Actually, most new releases around the 95.5% and lower RTP. Say what you like about BTG but at least they are genuinely sticking to their 96%+ RTP. For what it’s worth I actually quite like Reel Rush 2 although haven’t played it too much. NetEnts slant on Lil Devil bonus structure at first glance.

Its probably a bit kinder than lil devil, since its not as volatile.

Did not know about the rather large drop in rtp% on it tho.
But i saw now that i checked that RR1 is on 96.96% wich is rather high even for Netents.
Still wish they would have stayed on the "right" side of 96% with the sequel.

I know we love to give casinos crap for choosing low-rtp versions, but i think developers deserve a bit of trashing aswell.
I mean, they are the ones offering&making the low-rtp slots.

"Oh, but if they only produce slots with over 96% rtp, alot of casinos will drop them, making them lose profits"

Really tho? You want to try and be the Casino not offering Playngo,Pragmatic play,Red tiger, etc and tell me how well that goes for you. No way would the casinos drop them as a provider if they stopped delivering low rtp-versions.

 

[Siohmy]

Its probably a bit kinder than lil devil, since its not as volatile.

Did not know about the rather large drop in rtp% on it tho.
But i saw now that i checked that RR1 is on 96.96% wich is rather high even for Netents.
Still wish they would have stayed on the "right" side of 96% with the sequel.

I know we love to give casinos crap for choosing low-rtp versions, but i think developers deserve a bit of trashing aswell.
I mean, they are the ones offering&making the low-rtp slots.

"Oh, but if they only produce slots with over 96% rtp, alot of casinos will drop them, making them lose profits"

Really tho? You want to try and be the Casino not offering Playngo,Pragmatic play,Red tiger, etc and tell me how well that goes for you. No way would the casinos drop them as a provider if they stopped delivering low rtp-versions.

Yep, admittedly RR1 was unusually high but as has been said previously, there is a very rapid move on many providers part (and casinos) to move towards a 95% standard and below. HV and UHV potentially make this much easier to implement. These slots play like crap 99% of the time anyway. If you skim a majority of the 1.5-2% reduction from the hyper wins who’s going to really notice?

Games like Reactoonz and Moon Princess, however, have relatively low top end potential and rely on more frequent wins in the 500-1000x bracket. Remove a significant amount of these and the slot will likely be noticeably tighter.

As for the odd argument that most wont notice the difference between 96% and 94%, well that’s fine then. I’ll sleep happy knowing the back end is generating an extra £500k for every £1m gross profit because it can largely go undetected by the player. Top stuff.

 

[slot_zombie]

We are just the chumps that keep the whole industry alive, so it's fine to shaft us with lower RTP / entertainment time.

 

[snorky510238]

We are just the chumps that keep the whole industry alive, so it's fine to shaft us with lower RTP / entertainment time.

That’s one of the massive changes I have noticed. The lack of gameplay a deposit yields. Games in general are unrecognisable from a few years ago.

 

[dionysus]

That’s one of the massive changes I have noticed. The lack of gameplay a deposit yields. Games in general are unrecognisable from a few years ago.

True enough. Though I think another issue is higher volatility games as well. I'm as guilty for playing and flogging them.

 

[snorky510238]

True enough. Though I think another issue is higher volatility games as well. I'm as guilty for playing and flogging them.

Yes I get the HV thing but games that were not particularly so like Montezuma and Bonanza and others now seem to have the HV regarding bonus triggers but seem to be delivering even smaller returns when does come.

The two don’t add up.

 

[goatwack]

High-variance gameplay with low-variance payouts

-what's not to love

 

[Slottery]

Maybe analyzing whole game play from slots which been played at least very much every year would show stats how many spins etc... Getting with same deposited amounts this year and few years ago.

If games are unrecognizable, it should be easy to demonstrate with some numbers for amount of spins, wins and all possible stats what are making games to be totally different. Game histories should be available from casinos to show that these numbers are so different than few years ago.

If there is clear and big enough difference and patterns shown, then there would be at least some number to back up argument what's now based only for feeling that games are clearly going worse and worse, now without that clear pattern it's just pretty much based on how somebody is feeling and "Everything used to be better..." like some elder people like to remind about times 30 years ago etc...

 

[CompleteFailure]

Which are the provides that are transparent regarding RTPs?

First Tier
Netent, Rival - they have one guaranteed, stated RTP.

Second Tier
Pragmatic, Thunderkick- different RTPs, but stated in help file.

Third Tier
Playngo - different RTPs, sometimes stated in help file.

Fourth Tier
RTG - different RTPs, never stated.

Unknown
Microgaming, Playtech, Betsoft

Any others?

 

[Kroffe]

Which are the provides that are transparent regarding RTPs?

First Tier
Netent, Rival - they have one guaranteed, stated RTP.

Second Tier
Pragmatic, Thunderkick- different RTPs, but stated in help file.

Third Tier
Playngo - different RTPs, sometimes stated in help file.

Fourth Tier
RTG - different RTPs, never stated.

Unknown
Microgaming, Playtech, Betsoft

Any others?

Do thunderkick offer different rtp-versions?
I would think thunderkick&blueprint would be in the first tier.

Edit: i dont think yggdrasil offer different versions either.

 

[brianmon]

Which are the provides that are transparent regarding RTPs?

First Tier
Netent, Rival - they have one guaranteed, stated RTP.

Second Tier
Pragmatic, Thunderkick- different RTPs, but stated in help file.

Third Tier
Playngo - different RTPs, sometimes stated in help file.

Fourth Tier
RTG - different RTPs, never stated.

Unknown
Microgaming, Playtech, Betsoft

Any others?

microgaming are first tier. RTP is in the help file (as far as UK players are concerned), although it wasn't always so

 

[EkJR]

Do thunderkick offer different rtp-versions?
I would think thunderkick&blueprint would be in the first tier.

Edit: i dont think yggdrasil offer different versions either.

Blueprint definitely first tier.

Third tier should also include the likes of Novomatic.

 

[dionysus]

Which are the provides that are transparent regarding RTPs?

First Tier
Netent, Rival - they have one guaranteed, stated RTP.

Second Tier
Pragmatic, Thunderkick- different RTPs, but stated in help file.

Third Tier
Playngo - different RTPs, sometimes stated in help file.

Fourth Tier
RTG - different RTPs, never stated.

Unknown
Microgaming, Playtech, Betsoft

Any others?

BTG have stated in the forum they only offer 1 RTP

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do thunderkick offer different rtp-versions?
I would think thunderkick&blueprint would be in the first tier.

Edit: i dont think yggdrasil offer different versions either.

Thunderkick created lower RTP versions of their game back in 2015.

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Maybe transparency in volatility should also be factored in though it doesn't seem like providers try to hide the ball so much with that.

 

[CompleteFailure]

microgaming are first tier. RTP is in the help file (as far as UK players are concerned), although it wasn't always so

Well, UK is just a small part of the world. Playngo also require RTP to be stated for UK players, but then they authorize some non-UK casinos, like those based in Curacao, to run them with the RTP sneakily excised.

 

[brianmon]

Thunderkick created lower RTP versions of their game back in 2015.

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Maybe transparency in volatility should also be factored in though it doesn't seem like providers try to hide the ball so much with that.

Thunderkick did change their RTP.
But didn't add the lower versions to the originals. There's still only one RTP per game.

 

[brianmon]

Well, UK is just a small part of the world. Playngo also require RTP to be stated for UK players, but then they authorize some non-UK casinos, like those based in Curacao, to run them with the RTP sneakily excised.

as far as I'm aware, MicroGaming have only ever had one RTP per game. They just never published them

 

[CompleteFailure]

Thunderkick did change their RTP.
But didn't add the lower versions to the originals. There's still only one RTP per game.

Well, in that thread UnibetSam said that for some of the slots, they had the option between 2 versions with different RTP. Maybe that's changed.

 

[CompleteFailure]

as far as I'm aware, MicroGaming have only ever had one RTP per game. They just never published them

You're probably right. I"ll start checking the help files at different casinos to see if they require RTP to always be published. Subjectively, I definitely think of them as first tier.

 

[Kroffe]

Im mostly going by the fact that i have the same rtp on Videoslots on thunderkickslots as the rest of casinos.
Videoslots will use the lower rtp-version on all providers that offer them.

 

[@@@]

High-variance gameplay with low-variance payouts

-what's not to love

99% of Netent and Redtiger slots. When you win on them you just slightly recover.
Cayetano and BTG gives me the most fun, gameplay and big wins, big as in 300x plus.

 

[Bloatgoat]

I dont believe a casino would be limiting on the RTP based on just 'increased' taxes. If taxes where to be increased, there's way to lower it. But the trend in any business like banks or whatever always seem to say oh we're minimizing the amount of offices we have and tend to work more towards a online enviroment. This will be cheaper for you as a customer and some jobs will be lost blabla to find out 2 years later, everything almost got twice as expensive as the situation before. It's just greed.

Casino's want to move forward, in revenue and whatever they can skimp out on costs. So the message is sold to you gamblers that the RTP is with a few percentage perhaps lowered, because of 'tax'. Really guys, do you think that's the real motivation?

Some of you may know i won a substantial amount money a while ago, around the 70k mark. I was fine, i enjoyed the time off really from any gambling stress and whatever it brought me. I bought a car, invested a portion of the money back into my company and was happy. At some point i started playing again, and i was kind of stunned by the difficulty in ANY game i attempted. When i switched casino from place A to B online the first thing i did was getting myself verified. Just to exclude like any of the bullshit that might occur sometimes. They let you deposit but wont withdrawl, you know.

So i won again a substantial amount of money, 8k to be precise over a deposit from 100 euro. Very good. I went back to casino A again, pretty much pumped the 8K and some more over time in there, where it eventually all got burned. I changed strategy to aggressive, mild, the long low betting and time consuming playtime, random play, I played a tremendous amount of games that where listed on this particular casino, you name it, i threw all i had against it. Nada. It would at some point even me out and crash me back to zero.

Pretty much tonight, i calculated the amount of spins needed at a certain bet to get the best possible play. I depositted and started to play. 1500 spins later i KNEW it was about to come, and them boom, disconnected. Gone. I went back into my session, hit autoplay again, to have a complete flatout game.

I know i cant prove this, and i know it's tinfoil, but i believe my account is flagged, and the casino has some ability to break a current game or result provided even before it's presented on my screen. I'm not mad for losing that amount of money, trust me i've won great amounts of money and have a very good business going on. But the way the play these last months are going, is just sickening.

At least in a landbased i stand a chance yo! Perhaps with alot less HV and all that, but if a machine is not hitting i switch to another one and try my luck there. Pretty much 2 out of 5 would hit at minimum knowing the game i play. The pattern is always the same. Deposit small > win small. Deposit big > win big. It's always wagering me out, evening out the RTP, like it's making sure everything is correct within the numbers and STILL fist me over.

I think i'll search for another hobby. It was a very interesting time and the amount of hours spend on gambling is wasted hours really. I'm pretty sure casino's and providers do have certain agreements and i'm sure that big casino's have a word of say in what the provider decides. A provider is at the end of the day granted when a big casino selects their game and provides plenty of players wagering all over the place.

This business stinks. I cant prove it. Nobody can and proberly will come out either. Nobody knows the dirty tactics and tricks providers and casino's may apply. I know i'm being put as a tinfoiler but really i dont care. At the end of the day it's all business and money for a casino, a provider and the chances or house edges a casino has.

We all heard the same tested reliability and results from so many casino's, but even Volkswagen managed to cheat on those MPG or NOX for a decade and getting away with it. The fines in relation to the pollution it brought city's and people is just peanuts.

So if anyone having certain doubts about a casino, game or provider, you cant cheat on human intuition. From this point i'll be closing the 2 accounts i have. That's all i can do about it and hopefully others who feel being screwed all over would strongly suggest todo the same.

 

[Kroffe]

So if anyone having certain doubts about a casino, game or provider, you cant cheat on human intuition.

They dont need to fool your intuition. Your own brain does that for you.
Finding patterns where there are none is called pareidolia, and the brain likes doing that.
The brain does its best to process the information its getting, but still get things wrong alot of the time.
Like how these lines looks like they bend.

Or these bars look like they move when looking right at them.

You say you have no proof, but maybe you do?
Dont you have all the stats from the casino? Deposits, spins etc.
That would show how different the play was after coming back from the win.
If you back up what you say with some sweet screenshots it would make even me into a believer.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Dude,

Money in vs money out. How simple do you want to have it? Stats casino? this is in the UK only it seems. I dont see stats of other casino's OUTSIDE the UK and WITHIN the EU offering this. Hell some bogus ones completely hide the RTP per game and solely put a 97% on the website as a global RTP.

A VIP manager from a casino even said onetime that they simply putting a 97% over all players deposits. No random payouts from gaming providers there dude.

 

[Kroffe]

You were lucky to win, that is rare.
You come back and dont win, that is normal.
More money goes in when losing. See how that makes sense?

"Someone said this, someone said that"

Guessing no chatlogs or emails to show that either?
Or name of the Vip, and what casino they worked for?

 

[Bloatgoat]

It's in a quote somewhere on this forum in one of my many posts. Pretty much sums it up the variances in between casino's. I dont have to prove you or anybody else in what i think. This is what i feel, believe, and that it's becoming a very bad habbit from which i should retract from.

Providers moving the goal... you mean providers pushed to being more greedy. How is a 20 cents bet ending up in 8k of profit any fairness?

 

[Kroffe]

It's in a quote somewhere on this forum in one of my many posts. Pretty much sums it up the variances in between casino's. I dont have to prove you or anybody else in what i think. This is what i feel, believe, and that it's becoming a very bad habbit from which i should retract from.

Providers moving the goal... you mean providers pushed to being more greedy. How is a 20 cents bet ending up in 8k of profit any fairness?

Yes, i know its what you feel and what you believe, but you are presenting it as facts.
And when asked to back up those "facts" you cant.

 

[dionysus]

Yes, i know its what you feel and what you believe, but you are presenting it as facts.
And when asked to back up those "facts" you cant.

silly pooh bear, facts get in the way of a good conspiracy