Problems with Golden Riviera Casino

[RobWin]

All the online casinos seem to be worried about fraud control issues when having to pay out someone ... but why are they never worried about this when you are making a deposit or sending them money... I wish you Bryan or someone else could maybe explain this to all of us...where is their fraud control and player protection when making a deposit... they are all more than happy to accept our money ? :notworthy

 

[Stanford]

Has the leopard changed it's spots?

I think what we're dealing with is overzealous (borderline paranoid) fraud control. Like I mentioned, this is an opportunity for all casino managers/operators to review these policies and to avoid intrunsive requests.

I agree. I hope they listen to you.

That passage you quoted from their terms did specify that they might ask for additional information. Most of us would think a jpg of our bank statement with the middle 8 digits blocked out would suffice.

That passage does not imply that a bank letter may be needed. A requirement for an act by a third party would have to be explicit and not implied. And it would have to be prominent so as not to trap the player. I mean very prominent. Like on the deposit screen before depositing.

Requiring documentation after the fact subverts EGAP 105.P.1. This minimum requirement says player information must be kept confidential. To require the player to disclose his gaming practice to a third party circumvents this minimum standard.

Note that a suggested practice under EGAP 105.P.1 requires any third party verification by the casino to take place only when a formal trust relationship is established. How can the casino force the player to do what they cannot?

I think they violate Objective 113 as well. This objective says casino advertising is not misleading. In this case, the casino has a section called Money Matters that does not disclose that third party verification is required before releasing money. I believe their reliance on such imprecise language in their terms is misleading on its face. The DNA example JPM used is exactly on point.

I have no doubt that you well get this player paid. The more interesting question is the redemption question. Has this leopard really changed its spots? And if not, will ECOGRA really live up to its mission.

As a player, I will be watching to see if we get this help from the Casino watchdog organazation. As always, I know we can depend on you Mr. Bailey.

Stanford

 

[Niels]

Well, I have trouble again with these guys. I started this thread some time ago, and I ended up being paid. A week ago I was stupid enough to pick up the same bonus offer once again (cant believe I did it, I knew it was gonna give me trouble - dohh)

the promotion offer "60 for 30". I wagered like 1100 on BJ and ended cashing out 106$ (last time it was 170$)

"Terms and conditions applicable to subsequent bonus offers:
All deposit and bonus money for ongoing promotions must be wagered 11
times before cashing in.
Wagers on Baccarat, Craps, Roulette, WILL NOT meet your wagering
obligation on all subsequent bonuses"

The 3 days ago the money was returned to my casino account:

Dear Niels

Your cash-in has been returned to your gaming account, as you have not met the wagering requirements. You need to wager $1800 in order to qualify for the cash-in.

Wagers on BlackJack, Video Poker and SicBo will not meet wagering obligation with regards to your initial download bonus.
All bonus and free money cannot be wagered on Roulette, Craps and Baccarat.
We apologize for the inconvenience that this may cause, and wish you luck at our tables.

Thank you for choosing Golden Riviera Casino.

Kind Regards
Accounts Department
Golden Riviera Casino "For Sophisticated Online Gambling"

I wrote back to them that they were looking at the wrong terms and conditions and that I had wagered enough. Once again the money has just been returned to my casino account:

Dear Client,
Please note that Danish players need to wager 20 times.
Thank you for choosing our Casino.

Regards
Accounts Department

They just ignore my emails and give me this standard answer that doesnt explain anything. Apart from that they never write any name at the buttom, just accounts department....pretty weird isnt it.

Well, I have cashed out again and I have once again explained to them how their terms and conditions must be read. I cant believe they dont even know their own t&c - or maybe it just is pure harassment....

 

[GrandMaster]

File a complaint with ecogra.

You should always assume that if there is a difference between the bonus conditions in the e-mail and on the casino's website, the less favourable terms will apply. Casino Kingdom also pulled this trick on me.

 

[jpm]

I hope this time you've learned your lesson and will stay away form this place if and when you finally do get paid.

They say "Wagers on BlackJack, Video Poker and SicBo will not meet wagering obligation with regards to your initial download bonus.", the most important part of that sentence is the phrase initial download bonus. Obviously this was NOT an initial download bonus.

 

[Niels]

I just recieved this email:

Dear Niels,
We have audited your account and found the following:

1.You purchased $30 on the 01 May 2004 and claimed the $60 special return offer bonus. You then wagered $1123 on Table - Vegas Strip BlackJack and won $16.

2. In our terms and conditions it states the following for players of Danish origin:
"Players of Danish and Israeli origin are welcome at our casino. However due to promotional abuse by a large number of players originating from Denmark and Israel the wagering on the deposit and bonus money is 20 times before the player will be eligible to make a withdrawal."

3. Therefore you were required to wager ($60+$30)x20 = 1800.

4. To date this amount has not been wagered and as a result your cash-in has been reversed.

We apologise for any inconvenience that has been caused to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us directly if you have any queries.

Regards,
Accounts Department
Golden Riviera Casino "For Sophisticated Online Gambling"


They are trying to cheat me...

 

[jetset]

Neils, are you a Danish player and do these T&Cs apply to you?

Were these T&Cs in force at the time you deposited on 1 May?

Is the summary of your account contained in your email from the casino correct?

The way I read this, they are telling you that you have to make the WT of 1800 because you are Danish and therefore need to wager x 20.

 

[Niels]

Yes they were, but since this is a subesequent bonus, it is not possible to misunderstand anything:

"Terms and conditions applicable to subsequent bonus offers:
All deposit and bonus money for ongoing promotions must be wagered 11
times before cashing in.
Wagers on Baccarat, Craps, Roulette, WILL NOT meet your wagering
obligation on all subsequent bonuses"

As you see there are no special rules for danish players concerning subsequent bonus offers, and if this were not a subsequent bonus offer, it wouldnt even be allowed to play Black Jack, which I have done....

 

[GrandMaster]

Yes they were, but since this is a subesequent bonus, it is not possible to misunderstand anything:

"Terms and conditions applicable to subsequent bonus offers:
All deposit and bonus money for ongoing promotions must be wagered 11
times before cashing in.
Wagers on Baccarat, Craps, Roulette, WILL NOT meet your wagering
obligation on all subsequent bonuses"

As you see there are no special rules for danish players concerning subsequent bonus offers, and if this were not a subsequent bonus offer, it wouldnt even be allowed to play Black Jack, which I have done....

File a complaint with ecogra. They have standards for promotions and advertising. Interestingly, Rule 113.P.3 "All advertising should contain factually correct information. " is only a suggested practice, not a requirement.

 

[Niels]

Well, I recieved this email from them

Dear Niels,

Please note you will need to wager $667 more before cashing in.

Thank you for choosing our Casino.

Regards
Accounts Department

I decided to play the lacking 667$, because I am fed up with them. I was lucky on autoplay, and now I have just cashed out 164$ instead of 106$

If they regret me my money now I will go make the complaint you are talking about, but since they have sent me this email they also say that Black Jack DOES count in order to fulfill the wager requirement

 

[Niels]

Those guys surely got nerve!

Dear Niels
Your cash-in has been returned to your gaming account, as you have not met the wagering requirements. You need to wager $1800 in order to qualify for the cash-in.

Wagers on BlackJack, Video Poker and SicBo will not meet wagering obligation with regards to your initial download bonus.

All bonus and free money cannot be wagered on Roulette, Craps and Baccarat.

We apologize for the inconvenience that this may cause, and wish you luck at our tables.
Thank you for choosing Golden Riviera Casino.

Kind Regards
Accounts Department
Golden Riviera Casino "For Sophisticated Online Gambling"

Maybe I should make that complaint, this is totally insane!

Wagers on BlackJack, Video Poker and SicBo will not meet wagering obligation with regards to your initial download bonus.

This was NOT an initial download bonus, why are they trying to cheat me so obviously!!??

 

[Stanford]

Ecogra

Those guys surely got nerve!....

Wagers on BlackJack, Video Poker and SicBo will not meet wagering obligation with regards to your initial download bonus.

This was NOT an initial download bonus, why are they trying to cheat me so obviously!!??

If you do file the complaint, please point ECOGRA to this thread. They need to know the spotty reputation from this group. After hearing about them for years, I immediatly give the benefit of the doubt to the player. In this case, I am assuming you are correct in your reading of the Ts&Cs, but have not checked myself.

Please keep us posted and let us know how ECOGRA handles this if you file that complaint.

ECOGRA requires a good faith effort by the player to resolve any issue prior to contacting them with a complaint. I am very concerned GR will simply delay payment to players and add requirements for cashout, and then issue payment during the good faith effort phase for those players that are persistent. Thus effectivly continuing their past practices without ECOGRA intervention.

Stanford

 

[LRDell]

Unless I missed something recently, Golden Riviera is not an eCOGRA casino. eCOGRA only gets involved in resolving disputes with those casinos it has certified, I believe.

I hope you get it resolved. I think I am the only person in this forum who considers this casino one of my favorites. The only issue I had with them was resolved in my favor.

 

[Casinomeister]

Unless I missed something recently, Golden Riviera is not an eCOGRA casino. eCOGRA only gets involved in resolving disputes with those casinos it has certified, I believe....

Players have a few choices. They can post their complaints on the boards hoping for resolution (least effective). They can "Pitch a Bitch" via me (I don't work weekends). Or they can go to eCOGRA.

Golden Riviera is eCOGRA certified, but I am in direct contact with the operator as well. But eCOGRA certified or not, if a player has a legitamate complaint about ANY operation, they should let eCOGRA know so that they can keep tabs on these sort of things for future reference.

 

[jen]

eCogra wont take any case that has been or is being discussed at forums. See the rules at their web site.

 

[jetset]

I am sure that the Fair Gaming Advocate at eCOGRA has the discretion and common sense to know when to apply this rule.

It actually formalises what most mediators tell players with disputes - always first try to escalate beyond the CSR level because managers have more authority and will often solve the dispute then and there, and hold off on the trashing until the mediation process has been completed - it only makes the mediator's job more difficult to broker a positive conclusion if there are recriminations and cussing flying around.

But Casinomeister's advice regarding notifying eCOGRA of hassles with Seal casinos anyway is sound - it helps them build their database and that is useful.

 

[Niels]

Well, the problem again has been solved, but thanks alto for all you helpful suggestions

Dear Niels,

Kindly note that your $164.00 cashin will be processed as Neteller .
Kindly allow 1 to 5 working days for delivery from today.

We thank you for choosing Golden Riviera Casino.

Kind Regards
Verification Department
Golden Riviera Casino

 

[mtowler]

Update

I am still away from home so have not yet been able to get to the bank to provide the letter in question.
I have been playing at King Neptunes Casino and am very happy with the service they provide.
I have cashed in 500 - 250 and 400 and the money comes through without any problems.
For now I would have to say play at Neptunes and Not GR.

Good Luck to All
Mike

 

[mtowler]

eCogra

eCogra wont take any case that has been or is being discussed at forums. See the rules at their web site.

This rule shows complicity with the casinos. any organization that trys to find ways to avoid doing due deligance on a problem is open for seriouse doubt regarding their lagitimacy.

JMHO>
Mike

 

[jetset]

This rule shows complicity with the casinos. any organization that trys to find ways to avoid doing due deligance on a problem is open for seriouse doubt regarding their lagitimacy.

JMHO>
Mike

Mike, I think you are jumping to an unfair conclusion here. As an independent mediator myself on occasion I can assure you that trashing any operation before attempts at a solution have been exhausted does not make the task of a fair resolution any easier. And several different people working on a dispute at the same time can confuse the issue.

The dispute system at eCOGRA was designed by one of the best and fairest mediators around, the late Julie Sidwell and I am pretty sure that her considerable experience lay behind those rules, rather than any suggestion of "complicity".

 

[Casinomeister]

The dispute system at eCOGRA was designed by one of the best and fairest mediators around, the late Julie Sidwell and I am pretty sure that her considerable experience lay behind those rules, rather than any suggestion of "complicity".

And I can "second" this policy...

...it is frustrating when a player comes to me, and they've already trashed a casino in public - calling them a-holes and crooks, and then expect me to contact them in their behalf. "Dear sir, this player (who by the way, called you a dickhead in public), would like to be paid."

Yeah right, I'll get real far on that one.

What's worse is when I receive emails from casino operators giving me the heads up that Joe Player wrote, "you better give me my money or I will tell Casinomeister and then trash your casino on every public message board." I hate that, especially when the player is in the wrong.

I don't need the grief. Players should seek information first, and then assistance. If players want to bitch about casinos in public, well so be it. But by doing so, they should not expect a casino to bend over backwards to resolve any complaint.

 

[Stanford]

And I can "second" this policy...

What's worse is when I receive emails from casino operators giving me the heads up that Joe Player wrote, "you better give me my money or I will tell Casinomeister and then trash your casino on every public message board." I hate that, especially when the player is in the wrong.

I don't need the grief. Players should seek information first, and then assistance. If players want to bitch about casinos in public, well so be it. But by doing so, they should not expect a casino to bend over backwards to resolve any complaint.

I understand your position. But that should not be a position for a Industry Seal provider. The only thing the seal provider should be concerned about is whether the behavior is consistent with the seal.

For meidators, it is sort of a sticky wicket. I hope there is a halfway measure such that the story can be told without some of the flame. That's helpful to us that read your boards.

This is particularly true in a case like Golden Riviera who has some history of slow pay and poor customer service. We can see the issue raised. Then we can see the resolution. Then we know if it is a safe place to play or not.

imho,
stanford

 

[RobWin]

I understand your position. But that should not be a position for a Industry Seal provider. The only thing the seal provider should be concerned about is whether the behavior is consistent with the seal.

For meidators, it is sort of a sticky wicket. I hope there is a halfway measure such that the story can be told without some of the flame. That's helpful to us that read your boards.

This is particularly true in a case like Golden Riviera who has some history of slow pay and poor customer service. We can see the issue raised. Then we can see the resolution. Then we know if it is a safe place to play or not.

imho,
stanford

Totally agree Stanford, Real good points, well written

 

[mtowler]

I agree

Totally agree Stanford, Real good points, well written

I agree with your view. I have not contacted anyone other than Bryan regarding this matter so far.

I have made it home for a few days and went to my bank to ask for this letter.
They did a print out of my account stamped it and attached the Vice Presidents bus. card and told me this is all that should be required to prove my account is active. They also told me that these papers are used to provide this information for home loans etc. and should meet anyones requirment.

It will be interesting to see how GR addresses this.
If they had any real concerns they could just pick up the phone and call my bank.

We shall SEE

 

[jpm]

Any side wagers on whether they'll accept it or not? I'm betting no pass.