player's union discussion

[spearmaster]

Caruso said:

PLAYERS DO NOT HEED WARNINGS, THEY ONLY POST THEM.

Actually, for the most part I agree. No one hesitates to post a warning. But some people do decide to heed warnings - and some think that they don't really believe the warning and go ahead and play anyhow.

It all boils down to where the warning is coming from, and the level of severity (ie. poor support as opposed to no-pay). The "boycott" method certainly does work when the call for action comes from a respected source.

The rest of this discussion is interesting to follow, especially given what problems the OPAs have come up against in the past. I'm not making any other comments here because my views have been documented in older threads. Except to say that I can vouch for Meister 100% in that he is not casino-biased (though one can then argue that I myself am biased because I also run a portal... LOL...).

 

[jetset]

If we charged union dues, then yes we would have checks and balances in place so players who thought they were wrongly decided against could appeal. We do not charge a fee to be a member, therefore it is money put up by someone else. Namely us. So yes, our decision would be final and not open to appeal. Again, since it is our money, we do reserve the right to use the players name (handle) or likeness for advertising.UNQUOTE

I believe this is the same sort of fundamentally flawed thinking that was at the root of previous problems in this field - and it's why you need to provide a more democratic platform to protect the rights of your members.

Whilst I like the Keep It Simple philosophy, there are some things which bear too heavily on the way an organisation evolves to demand anything less than considered thought and formalisation.

Big_Mac has made some fair points that are worth your consideration imo.

 

[The Dude]

As for a players union, all I can say is good luck. This has been attempted several times in the past, and I can honestly say - it won't work.

Okay, let me rephrase myself ...I can honestly say - it probably won't work. That's not so negative now, is it?
Lest we don't overlook the fact that I wish you luck in the preceeding sentence, eh?

I have no reason to wish the union not to work; I am just pointing out (like several others) that what you are attempting here is problematic; it's a bit more complex than what you may think. And I am simply pointing out some areas that you need to review or understand.

Let's look at the following situation: Already Damian is posting in the ads section indicating that a boycott of Omni is under consideration - or being voted on, etc.

Under what grounds are you initiating a vote for a boycott? Is it because of what has been posted here and at WOL or at _____________ (name your favorite forum). Have you rolled up your sleeves and investigated the claims yourself, or are you relying on hearsay?

Seven of the eleven claims submitted through me (yes, all forum members) have multiple accounts at Omni.

If you were boycotting this casino, (or blacklisting them, etc.) wouldn't you feel stupid? Talk about eating some yummy crow.

As i see right now more and more you going to the casino side, not saying you dont help. but that what i see, since u want to jump me...that what i see and others, I am not the only one i talk to many people. I know bryan does a great job, But to be negative right off the back is wrong.

So people you know tell you I side with the casino more often than not; that I'm casino biased. Well how about thinking for yourself, eh? I'm not going to honor that stupid-ass statement with a response - but what I will ask of you is to think about what you are dealing with. How well do you know these players? Who can you trust? - the players, or the casino - and where are you going to place yourself in the midst of all this.

Again I will emphasize, I do not believe you really know what you are getting into in order to make this a successful venture. Like some others have pointed out or implied, you should have tied up some of these lose ends before jumping in. Running a business that caters to players' needs is not as simple as it seems.

 

[greedygirl]

I am open to all levels of criticism, I prefer constructive criticism, because I have a tendancy to lash back at negative criticism.

m249a--

I sense you may be growing a bit frustrated with many of the comments you're receiving regarding what you're working so hard to create.

I'll do my best to be constructive in my comments. While there's so much I'd like to comment on, in the interest of bandwidth, I'll just give my opinion on the most glaring points.

1) If you are to be taken seriously, the forum should be void of ANYTHING not directly related to the actual focus of the Online Players Union. Things such as "Rate a Picture," "Jokes," and obviously the "Hood 3000" have no relevance towards what you are trying to put forth. There's a time and a place for hot babes and bar room humour--this just isn't the place.

2) I realize you want to keep casinos at a distance, however, I do believe some involvement would be beneficial. As players, you have no true working knowledge (only heresay, really) as to security and backend issues. Having some TRUSTED casino operators who can act as something of an advisory arm is a far better idea than keeping everything at such a distance. You should be attempting to develop working relationships from all sides--the players, the Union and the casino operators. Certainly approaching this in an adversarial manner will limit your results.

3) Damian--I mean no disrespect with what I'm about to say. I've seen several instances where you've "slipped up," and written in English, as opposed to Ebonics. I KNOW you're a bright guy, and this should be your moment to let the rest of the world know it. Don't let the 'gangsta' image you've created for yourself be an additional hurdle to your goals with the Union.

4) Where the notion of boycotts are concerned, there's really no way to sugar coat things. The plain and simple fact is that in order to do this successfully, you have to have an ENORMOUS member base. And to achieve the sort of member base to effectively pull something like this off, you need HUGE traffic. I'll explain a bit further...

Speaking generously, those who would be surfing the gambling forums MAYBE compose 1% of the online gambling player base. Again, being generous, lets say that 50% of this 1% number actually backs the Union in a boycott. This small number will not impress a casino.

Because traffic is so incredibly difficult to come by, I just can't see how you'll be able to effectively get the numbers to impress a casino (with a boycott) in these early stages. Give yourselves time to fully develop this Union BEFORE you start flexing your muscles. Remember--if you fail coming out of the gate, it will be difficult to recover.

And one last bit...

m249a--if you're frustrated and annoyed by cynicism now, you may want to get yourself some thicker skin. It will only get more heated as time goes on. Bryan can certainly attest to that.

However you decide to proceed, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[The Dude]

Speaking generously, those who would be surfing the gambling forums MAYBE compose 1% of the online gambling player base. Again, being generous, lets say that 50% of this 1% number actually backs the Union in a boycott. This small number will not impress a casino.

Actually, it's a bit higher than this. It's closer to 7% - but that still is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Petunia]

After having a quick read through I have this to say.

You need to do the following:
1) Put your plan together, and apply for a loan at the bank. If your loan is granted, you know your plan is semi-good.
2) You need to establish a name for yourself, and take yourself, and others serious.
3) You need to build a reputation as someone to be reckoned with.
4) You need backing from major names and industries.
5) You need to have clear goals and be able to set it all out for the 'future members'. You cannot just say "Come and join me against the casinos!".
6) You need to take in consideration that not everyone wants to go public as it might be an embarrassment to him or her. (Spouses and family not knowing, bosses might get uptight etc)
7) You need to be active on both sides of the coin, and understand 100% how the WHOLE industry works, not just one or two casinos.

And THAT is merely the beginning.

 

[bethug]

Petunia, ??
What does a bank loan have to do with anything?
I most likely have more money to start than most people.

Thanks for the input

 

[m249a]

Thank you again everyone for your imput.

We realize what we are getting ourselves into, and trust me my skin is plenty thick. I still have a tendancy to defend something I think is right, so.....off to the races.


Spearmaster, one would have to be foolish not to listen to what it is you have to say. On the "respected source" point I couldn't agree with you more. We understand that we will need to develop a level of crediblity before we are taken seriously. We also understand that won't happen overnight. We cannot open up shop today, and tommorow be the big boys on the block, tellin' all who come around how its going to be. IMO only time and numbers will take us to that level. We are willing to fight the fight, spend the time and money it takes to develop our concept. Time will tell if we make it or not.

Jetset, Damian and I are concerned with the "too many fingers in the pie" analogy. What I mean is this, we are hesitant to form any type of "board of directors" or member commitee, simply because we want to avoid in-fighting and the possibility of someone having flexible morals when it comes to acting in the best interest of the union as a whole. Our checks and balances, will come from the public at large as well as the more powerful and respected watchdogs and portals all ready on the web. I said it before, we are not willing to take a buck today, and lose 25 cents a month for 5 years. Damian and I cannot be bought. We respect each others opinion, and are able to have differing opinions without running the risk of dissention. Plus we work well together.

Casinomeister, again let me thank you for allowing us to lay this issue on the line in your house. The responses and opinions from all of your members, as well as you are extremely valuable, and will affect change for the better.
We used the omni fiasco as a test to see what our members reaction would be in regards to a strike. This is a perfect example of how Damian and I differ in opinion. He started the petition, and I was against it. We opened up the issue for our members to vote upon, and maybe jumped the gun a bit by spreading the message to other forums before we made a decision. Fair enough, we do not calim to be perfect, and as I said in my initial response to his petition, we were relying upon unfounded retortic in other forums for our information. This will not happen again. I understand the issues you have had in the past with opa 1&2, and hopefully Damian and I will not travel down that road as well. This is IMO a shining example of why Damian and I are quick to use the KISS method when it comes to management. Keep It Simple Stupid. We are loath to deviate from that method, and until we reach a level where that meantility becomes counter-productive, we are not going to change it either.

Greedygirl, I will not come right out and ask you to become a member, but perhaps you could read between the lines a bit .
I found your statements and opinions to be thoughtful and helpful. The jokes section and picture section are open for all to see and read, as well as reply and post in. We felt that our forum would be rather boring without interjecting some humor into it. We cannot be all things to all people, and if you don't like bar room humor, its probably best to stay out of the jokes section.
Keeping the casino operators and employees out of the dicussion and membershiip is the fundemental basis of our union. This is a players union. Not a "players union with the casino voice". This may sound harsh, and thats good, I want it to be harsh, I want our members to know that we are for them. Of course we will use every method at our disposal to mediate on behalf of a member, we just aren't really interested in having casino operators posting in our forum. That might change someday, but for now it is what it is.
Again thank you all for your imput. My time is limited this morning, so I will end with this, the players union is something Damian and I are working hard every day to develop and run, we must keep a positive and foreward looking approach to in order to have a chance......Wish us luck, and we hope to have your support as well.

 

[Petunia]

Petunia, ??
What does a bank loan have to do with anything?
I most likely have more money to start than most people.

Thanks for the input

Bethug: It teaches you how to write a propper business proposal to attract a)investors in the event you need backing and b) Creates players trust. It is not about the loan, if you read it correctly, it is about the plan!

 

[bethug]

Petunia, I run a mortgage company, which brings in 60000 to 80000 a month, That just on the loan side, on the real estate side another 60000 more or less, that dont included me flipping my investments. What I am saying I have more than enough money for the project. Also I have a partner at any time I can get money from. Which i dont see why would I



Also I just didnt pop that site up in one week, been working on it for three months and still working on it. I ask at least over 20 people for input, players and non players. Its not just about casinos, its about gambling union. Sports bettors, poker players etc.

 

[caruso]

LOL, I love the soft porn section. That coupled with the gambling system junk is just what you need to have your endeavour taken seriously.

This has to be all a wind up.

 

[BakuPT]

Let's look at the following situation: Already Damian is posting in the ads section indicating that a boycott of Omni is under consideration - or being voted on, etc.

Under what grounds are you initiating a vote for a boycott? Is it because of what has been posted here and at WOL or at _____________ (name your favorite forum). Have you rolled up your sleeves and investigated the claims yourself, or are you relying on hearsay?

Seven of the eleven claims submitted through me (yes, all forum members) have multiple accounts at Omni.

If you were boycotting this casino, (or blacklisting them, etc.) wouldn't you feel stupid? Talk about eating some yummy crow.

 

[dominique]

Let's look at the following situation: Already Damian is posting in the ads section indicating that a boycott of Omni is under consideration - or being voted on, etc.

Under what grounds are you initiating a vote for a boycott? Is it because of what has been posted here and at WOL or at _____________ (name your favorite forum). Have you rolled up your sleeves and investigated the claims yourself, or are you relying on hearsay?

Seven of the eleven claims submitted through me (yes, all forum members) have multiple accounts at Omni.

That is a very valid point.

How are you guys going to decide?

Having the members vote is not going to be a fair way of handling it at all - look at what is happening with the Omni thing. One or two unjustified boycotts and no one will believe you anymore. You need to be objective. You need to be able to speak to the casinos and have their trust so they will cooperate.

I am not sure you have covered everything here.

As far as boycootts go - I have been down that road in the affiliate community. Most all the affiliates working for percentages were outraged at having scumware steal players directly from their sites. It made many sites downright unprofitable and it was plain theft. Most agreed to boycott the casinos who used the scumware and supported it. The matter had great momentum. What happened? All the small affiliates boycotted, the larger ones did not. So the boycott had little impact. Why didn't the larger ones boycott? Because they were still making money with the boycotted casinos.

I also agree with the point that it is very difficult to attract enough players to really make an impact with a boycott - even under great conditions.

I think you will run into similair problems. Players who repeatedly win with certain casinos will not stop playing there because someone calls a boycott. They may openly support the boycott but privately play there all they like. There cannot be a picket line on the web and there is no way you can actually control this.

Again, I am in support of a player's union, but you need to dot more i's and cross more t's.

"Keep it simple, stupid" is one of my favorite sayings. But, an enterprise like this needs careful thought and planning.

 

[bethug]

BakuPT, you dont know me, cause the people that do , know me , knows i dont mess around with bad casinos.

Omni has not been voted off playersunion. It was place under vote. Which the boss said i jump the gun.

You can have something well thought out and it still can be inproved.

 

[BakuPT]

BakuPT, you dont know me, cause the people that do , know me , knows i dont mess around with bad casinos.

Omni has not been voted off playersunion. It was place under vote. Which the boss said i jump the gun.

You can have something well thought out and it still can be inproved.

But you have to agree that keeping advertising Omni at the same time that to boycott or not boycott is being discussed is not right.
It looks to me that the so called more casino oriented portal from which the webmaster makes a living acted more in the players interest.

 

[spearmaster]

On the "respected source" point I couldn't agree with you more. We understand that we will need to develop a level of crediblity before we are taken seriously. We also understand that won't happen overnight. We cannot open up shop today, and tommorow be the big boys on the block, tellin' all who come around how its going to be.

Just in case I get into trouble - there is nothing between the lines in what I said - this was primarily an observation based on Caruso's post.

For the record, as usual I am going to take a noncommital stance here - if you can make a player's union work, more power to you. I was a fan of the OPA, yet one of its biggest critics - twice. I am now a fan of eCOGRA, yet one of its biggest critics, and I only came off the fence recently, perhaps about a year after eCOGRA was established, because I have a better understanding about what their objectives are - though in all fairness I can also say that I never had any real doubt as to the integrity of the executives and board members who have proven their skills in the past.

In this particular instance - other than agreeing with Greedygirl about her observations regarding the content of the forums - I shall continue to sit on the fence and watch as the union tries to establish its credibility and achieve its objectives - with of course the hope that something will come of these efforts.

 

[jetset]

QUOTE Omni has not been voted off playersunion. It was place under vote. Which the boss said i jump the gun. UNQUOTE

Sorry to harp on this, but I really am trying to obviate potential hassles. The above is another illustration of why you need to agree and document procedures and basic rules / guidelines to ensure fair and equitable decisions all round....and operational efficiency.

Mark has already said that "striking" / boycotts are a weapon of last resort and that is a sensible approach - you need to be balanced and sure before taking extreme consumer action such as this. As others here have already opined - if you are not balanced and professional you will not achieve any level of credibility.

 

[jetset]

I missed the following remark from Mark earlier in the thread, but I would like to return to comment on it:

QUOTE Jetset, Damian and I are concerned with the "too many fingers in the pie" analogy. What I mean is this, we are hesitant to form any type of "board of directors" or member commitee, simply because we want to avoid in-fighting and the possibility of someone having flexible morals when it comes to acting in the best interest of the union as a whole. UNQUOTE

I do not believe I have suggested to you that you ought to appoint a BoD or committee. If you wish to operate a two man executive on a referendum basis of player voting, then so be it.

However, you have introduced the concept here so I will say that, properly structured, I think several experienced heads are generally better than two at looking at all sides of any issue and adding knowledge to the equation.

My point, expressed in my post above, is that a player's union is a complex and serious matter that demands detailed consideration, and that the experiences of the past should be built upon to avoid the potential for failure in the future.

 

[hahacasino]

Union is seems something for people that have a real job and get paid regularly.

Players are most broke or no job, why is a union for?

 

[Petunia]

** Bethug, as far as I am concerned, because you know about your morgage stuff does not mean you know how to plan and run a union. I was MERELY suggesting that you put your PLAN together, and it matters not HOW MUCH money you have, or who you KNOW, it matters what kind of backing you can come up with! OR do you think it is just OKAY to have pple point a finger and say "Oh, he is a joke, he bought his name" I did never even say that you 'threw up the website'. It is attitude like this that will not have me sign up with a union such as that. I don't think it is for the 'good of the pple' rather for "The prestige" of one name. I thought the idea was an okay one, I merely offered input. BUT you do not have to take it, just pay someone to do it for you then. Why not, you HAVE the money. **

 

[bethug]

Handle people biggest dream is not a easy task. Meeting all the DRE guidelines is not a easy task, do i do this by my self know, I hire someone dont mean things slip up. What company, union etc dont make a mistake,

Hahaha, if you dont have a job or broke you should not be playing at all.

Players Union Benefits

First and most obvious would of course be our player guarantee. This is rather simple, you as a registered Union Member can play at any of our sanctioned casinos, sports books or poker rooms with the security of our player guarantee. If you are ripped off by one of our sanctioned casinos, you will be paid by us. Up to $500.00USD. You must be a Union member, and register your real money account thru our website/forum. There are some terms and conditions for this insurance, but they are rather simple too. This is NOT losers insurance, this is insurance against unethical behavior towards the player.

Secondly, .we have put together an interactive forum that is centered on player issues. We have gone to great lengths to set up and run a forum that players can talk freely without ridicule, or accusations. We are here to help, and we want to help, ask your questions, offer your advice and enjoy the humor we try to inject here and there.

Also, We pay real cash in your pocket, not points etc . Real cash in are promotions. For being loyal to the union, for bring members, making great post. This will go on long at the union is running. Thanks for the input

 

[Vesuvio]

Re: the "player guarantee" - I don't see the point of this except for marketing your site. I've played at hundreds of on-line casinos, including a few borderline rogues, and still been paid by all of them. Of course occasionally a casino really does try to steal deposits, but those casinos are very, very unlikely to be among your 'sanctioned' casinos, assuming you have some standards and don't just pick those with good affiliate programs.

There's no financial guarantee about playing at any Casinomeister reputable casino, but I'd feel confident about not being ripped off by them. Sites like this one also have a genuine reputation and influence in the industry. I don't see how your new forum can add anything to that. If it's just another site to try and share affiliate income among players then there are others that have been around much longer and are more professional. Re: the idea of boycotts, I think Caruso's right. Players really do ignore warnings (myself included), if they're chasing a bonus and think they'll still get paid eventually, so I can't see that being a way of affecting casinos. This is an industry where everyone's motivated by selfishness & greed (our better qualities get channelled into other activities ), so I don't see how any genuine 'union' stands a chance.

Sorry to be negative - I'm willing to believe you have the best interests of players at heart, it's just that your site doesn't do anything to advance those interests. The ideal situation would be to have genuine regulation in the industry, but as that's not going to happen sites like Casinomeister are our best bet for now.

 

[Petunia]

Hahaha, if you dont have a job or broke you should not be playing at all.

** okay ** Edited: I guess deep down we all want to be little Bryans! *grin*

 

[bethug]

Petunia, i dont know why you have a problem with me, but it sad.

If you dont have a job or should i say income coming in or broke you should not be playing peroid , has nothing to do with the union at all. Plan common since

Yes it a elite club we, dont want fraudlant players joing or people that gamble with there rent or mortgage money, any one else of age can join

 

[Freudian]

To be honest, this seems like a normal affiliate thing where the affiliate helps when their players have a problem with a casino. I simply don't see where the union part comes in when the explicit goal is to make money for the two affiliates.

Add in the silly blackjack system and we have the most bizarre interpretation of the word union ever. I don't think the guys behind it are bad people but surely they can't expect it to work as anything beyond a banner farm?

 

[bethug]

We not like another affiliate

339157xxx- ICQ [9:52 AM]: Hi was checking your site

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

referback is good you should also give a try to casinoblasters and allstaraffiliates... are you signed up to them yet ?
BiblePimp [9:53 AM]: what cainos run on casino blasters
BiblePimp [9:53 AM]: and all star
BiblePimp [9:53 AM]: ?
339157527 - ICQ [9:54 AM]: casinoblasters = Goldenpalace, Aspinalls, Grandonline, Flamingoclub, 24ktgoldcasino (each of them have PokerRoom Version)
BiblePimp [9:55 AM]: golden palace group slow pays
BiblePimp [9:55 AM]: so i wlill not put them up
BiblePimp [9:55 AM]: thanks for the info thru
33915xxxx - ICQ [9:56 AM]: allstaraffiliates is owned by the same team as casinoblasters.. they have the following casinos: online vegas, onlybingo, gocasino, grandriviera, merlin's magic, thesixshooter, topcardcasino, triple win
33915xxx - ICQ [9:57 AM]: same high conversion than casinoblasters
BiblePimp [9:58 AM]: high conversion, but slow pay
I dont like slowpaying casinos, That would look bad for my site
339157xxx - ICQ [9:59 AM]: I dont know from where you got this information, I've always betted on goldenpalace myself... as its' the net's 2st most popular casinos... conversion is very high people trust it's brand name
BiblePimp [10:01 AM]: Information, go to wol, or casinomeister and ask the players how long do they get paid, also golden palace goes crazy things to get clients,
they buy a cane or a sandwich but cant pay there clients in less than 24 hours

339157xxx - ICQ [10:02 AM]: I seriously dont know what you guys have against casinoblasters... seriously it's my best paying sponsor they always pays at the beginning of each month on time... ALWAYS like 2 weeks before referback pays... they have no negative rollover and I good guys I leave close to their office and know many manager personally... they are honnest people
BiblePimp [10:03 AM]: where do u leave
33915xxxx - ICQ [10:04 AM]: Sorry for all the text, I'm just shocked seriously if there is company that have never tried to screw me... it's casinoblasters (allstaraffiliates and referback)
339157xxxx - ICQ [10:04 AM]: Qubec, Canada
BiblePimp [10:05 AM]: to me slow pays is wrong
33915xxxx - ICQ [10:08 AM]: I can have you Frdric from Casinoblasters talking to you he's availbale on icq he has nothing to hide.... if 'goldenpalace' is the problem for you try promoting GrandOnline Casino ... it's about the same conversion and/or allstaraffiliates casinos instead... but I guaranty you dude their conversion is better than referback
BiblePimp [10:09 AM]: the point is not convesion, its slow paying customers

This been happening for the pass two weeks, some one asking me to put a slow paying casino up

Also we list slow paying casinos, i have been doing for over a year.
You dont see to many other portols list slow paying casinos

We dont list any casinos, also the players have a voice that the main difference.

 

[big_mac]

To be honest, this seems like a normal affiliate thing where the affiliate helps when their players have a problem with a casino. I simply don't see where the union part comes in when the explicit goal is to make money for the two affiliates.

Add in the silly blackjack system and we have the most bizarre interpretation of the word union ever. I don't think the guys behind it are bad people but surely they can't expect it to work as anything beyond a banner farm?

I am starting to think the same thing.
I am sure the 'meister does not want to be the first to say it, but this thread seems to be becoming more of an advert for someone else's portal than any serious attempt to form a 'players' union'.

 

[bethug]

We didnt start this tread. I repect bryan and his work, and have for over a year sent people this way.

I had a free standing site up for over a year, reporting slow pays and no pays. What we plan on doing cost money. We ask for players input, we trying to united all the players. But if you dont want to be apart that is fine, we will keep trying.

This my last post here on this thread.
Have a nice day people

 

[big_mac]

perhaps that was a little harsh, sorry, but I will explain.

I didn't see why you decided to post again about your 'guarantee' - your guarantee only applies when you act as an affiliate - so I see that as promoting your affiliate business. It has been made clear that because it's your money at stake the guarantee is not open for debate with union members.

I also didn't see the need to post your conversation titled 'We not like another affiliate'. Your integrity has not been questioned, and did not need to be defended, so again, that seemed more like a promotion of the affiliate business.

Back to the union business, I would also say that I am a little dissapointed that you have simply dismissed a number of the complaints made (such as those about semi-naked pictures). If you truly want to represent people, then you must listen to the concerns of those you purport to represent. Even if you don't agree with them, they will have some merit (even Caruso's!).

I would also like to say that although I have disagreed with a number of things, Mark has posted some thoughtful and reflective comments, and I think that more of that is needed to take this debate forward.

 

[m249a]

I assure you all that our player insurance is much more than a marketing ploy. This is real money we have put aside to allow our members to play with a sense of security, and if you all think that all the bad casinos have packed up and left the internet, then by all means click away and good luck.

Petunia, I sense a level of strong hostility from you in regards to our little venture. You seem to have all the right ideas, and we are wrong wrong wrong, our site isn't structured the way you would like it to be, we didn't put together a business plan that you agree with ect.....since you opened the door, allow me to respond. Perhaps you should make sure your house is clean before you go telling the neighbors how dirty theirs is. I went to your site last week, after you announced on casinomeister that you were welcoming 32 red into your site. I scanned the site, and found a email address to send a request to submit a press release. I promptly sent an email to the address, and it was returned to me within the hour as undeliverable, I sent another one, making sure the spelling was correct, and just to be on the safe side i sent one to the other email address listed on your site. Both were returned as "undeliverable adress doesn't exist". So, maybe you should fix that HUH!?!?!?

Big_mac thank you for your imput. Please allow me to respond. We go to great lengths to meet the needs of our members. I know I recieve 3-5 emails a day from members asking questions, and making sugestions ect...we encourage our members to voice their concerns and list their sugestions. We will take heed of the sugestions made during this conversation held here the past couple of days. We will not however, jump in and change our site and forum every time someone posts an issue on casinomeister. It is after all a member forum, thus far our members seem to be fine with the way things are. If you are trully concerned then join up and offer your two cents.

Now........On to the rest of you. Thank you all for your time and effort in making replies and sugestions. I asked Bryan in private if it was ok to lay this issue on the line for debate. Once he granted me that permission this thread took off like gang busters. Again, thank you Bryan for allowing Damian and I to bring this to your house for review and debate. Thank you Jetset for all your help behind the scenes, and any time you would like to interview us for your newsletter, we are just an email away.

Some of you will never, under the best of cirmustances think we are doing something that will have a positive impact on this industry. Your negative attitudes, and hopes of our demise speak volumes, and we wish you well. Even if you don't return the sentiment. We will no longer allow our site to be open for the general public to view and thrash on this or any other forum. We are as of today, strictly a members only unioin. This was planned well in advance to coincide with our marketing blitz that begins today.

Thank you all again, and for those who do wish us well we hope you will join us, and continue to offer your insight on how we can make the players union better.

 

[nafanny29]

I dont mean to be negative but this has got no chance of suceeding guys. Any true "players union" would not be advertising ANY casinos full stop.

It would be like (in the UK) one of the main regulators financally benefiting from the thing they are regulating.

A conflict of interests is bound to arrise sooner or later.

Sorry to be negative guys, no offense

 

[Vesuvio]

I assure you all that our player insurance is much more than a marketing ploy. This is real money we have put aside to allow our members to play with a sense of security, and if you all think that all the bad casinos have packed up and left the internet, then by all means click away and good luck.

Yes, but as far as I understand it you wouldn't offer the insurance against a casino you don't have as an affiliate. And as Bethug pointed out you're not going to sign up with any casinos you've got doubts about (even those which are only 'slow pay' rather than 'no play'). So I don't see how you're either going to help players playing at those casinos, or have any influence on them to change their ways. Certainly if you're now going to be behind closed doors then you'll have no influence by shaming casinos - at least with a site like Casinomeister the casino in question might google themselves and be slightly miffed when the first link includes the word ROGUE

I might have misunderstood Bethug's explanation of the insurance but now it's impossible to check. This was what he wrote:

First and most obvious would of course be our player guarantee. This is rather simple, you as a registered Union Member can play at any of our sanctioned casinos, sports books or poker rooms with the security of our player guarantee. If you are ripped off by one of our sanctioned casinos, you will be paid by us. Up to $500.00USD. You must be a Union member, and register your real money account thru our website/forum. There are some terms and conditions for this insurance, but they are rather simple too. This is NOT losers insurance, this is insurance against unethical behavior towards the player.

Anyway, I don't wish you to fail, but I don't really see how you're going to be much different to other sites with affiliate links which are willing to chase up problems with those casinos. Still, I hope you suprise us all!

 

[jetset]

QUOTE Thank you Jetset for all your help behind the scenes.UNQUOTE

No biggie - but listen to advice from the experienced players here if you really want to succeed.

QUOTE Some of you will never, under the best of circumstances think we are doing something that will have a positive impact on this industry. Your negative attitudes, and hopes of our demise speak volumes, and we wish you well. Even if you don't return the sentiment. We will no longer allow our site to be open for the general public to view and thrash on this or any other forum. UNQUOTE

I hope I am wrong in detecting a note of bitterness at the reaction here, but that goes with the territory. I also hope that closing your site to general visitors is not part of that, because I truly think it's a mistake - it dilutes your impact and leaves an impression that you are not transparent.

 

[bethug]

Jetset anyone can view the main site, and any player that meets the code of conduct can join the union and forum.

 

[hahacasino]

A true players union should teach them quit gambling.

Help them find a job, or do something smarter.

Gamblers are the poorest kind of people.

No peace of mind, no real friends, but the devil himself.

May God bless us all!

 

[Petunia]

Petunia, I sense a level of strong hostility from you in regards to our little venture. You seem to have all the right ideas, and we are wrong wrong wrong, our site isn't structured the way you would like it to be, we didn't put together a business plan that you agree with ect.....since you opened the door, allow me to respond. Perhaps you should make sure your house is clean before you go telling the neighbors how dirty theirs is. I went to your site last week, after you announced on casinomeister that you were welcoming 32 red into your site. I scanned the site, and found a email address to send a request to submit a press release. I promptly sent an email to the address, and it was returned to me within the hour as undeliverable, I sent another one, making sure the spelling was correct, and just to be on the safe side i sent one to the other email address listed on your site. Both were returned as "undeliverable adress doesn't exist". So, maybe you should fix that HUH!?!?!?

** Please let me make it clear that a) I am not claiming to be a professional other than offering experience and a little information. I had absolutely NO problem with the venture, as a matter of fact, I offered input which I thought was constructive. Your problem with the website. Well,Let's see... In all honesty, you could have made me aware of it. I only became aware through a PM of the problem by SOMEONE ELSE who were understanding! I honestly did not know about that problem untill now. YOu could not be friendly enough to do that? You are welcome to send a request again, as I have in the mean time fixed the problem. Let me clear up a few assumptions too. I did that site because I believe in what I am doing. I am not charging anyone anything for it, nor am I expecting anything from it! I never recieved anything in the HOTMAIL account either, and you should check to see if you wrote "Hotmail.com, or Hotmail.co.uk". Please. I have no feud with you or Bethug. Bethug on the other hand made the assumption that I play with my rent money, and don't have a job. Well two things. I don't play with my rent money, and Yes, maybe I don't have a job, but it does not make me POOR or a reason to discriminate against me gambling! I think the advise I offered was sound business points, and it turned personal based on BETHUG's millions in store. Either way. I thought the idea was great, untill I noticed a few ego-drops. It concerned me. I had a look at your site too, and thought "Nice". Clicked here, clicked there, noticed a few broken links (which I was going to make you aware of in private) but sinc you air my 'dirty laundry' I guess you can find them for yourselves. I think the idea is a good one. I wish you the best of luck with it, and I hope that you guys find the right vehicle to drive it.
***

 

[greedygirl]

Some of you will never, under the best of cirmustances think we are doing something that will have a positive impact on this industry. Your negative attitudes, and hopes of our demise speak volumes, and we wish you well.

Mark--try and take yourself out of this situation. You're no stranger to the forums and you know that skepticsm and cynicism is part and parcel amongst the postings. With that in mind, pretend this venture was being launched by others. Really think hard on this. How would you perceive things? Imagine there are issues being brought about by not just one or two people, but by SEVERAL. And these issues being brought forth were being met with defensive statements and a certain degree of arrogance. My guess is your attitude would then become a bit negative towards the venture, as well.

On the other hand, imagine the very same scenario, only in this one, those launching the venture were open, responsive and receptive to comments. Certain reasonable changes were made in quick fashion. The dialogue with the players was seen as valid AND valuable. Remember--the players are the ONLY ones that matter, as these are the very people necessary to make the venture succeed. This time, I'm guessing, you'd have a positive attitude towards the venture.

I truly believed that you and Damian had the best of intentions by wanting to get posters here discussing their feelings in helping you to shape this union, until...

Even if you don't return the sentiment. We will no longer allow our site to be open for the general public to view and thrash on this or any other forum. We are as of today, strictly a members only unioin. This was planned well in advance to coincide with our marketing blitz that begins today.

I feel this is such a slap in the face to everyone who participated in this thread, as well as a huge slam on Bryan for allowing this thread in the first place. You went out of your way to contact Bryan, out of concern that this thread may or may not be appropriate. After he gave you the green light, you opened yourselves up to scrutiny and now you consider this "being thrashed." Worst of all, this was simply "marketing strategy."

As you seemed to be concerned with "constructive criticism," here's something constructive regarding marketing...NEVER exploit those you are marketing towards. And yes, you have exploited every single person who cared enough to give you valuable input by showing your true colors with your terse words and the knowledge that this "thrashing" was indeed, your "marketing strategy."

There IS a certain irony here. For a very long time, Damian had spoken vocally against the closed door policy with the GPWA. Now it appears that this is the very policy being adopted by the Online Players Union.

While I do wish both you and Damian well on this, I believe you've only made it far tougher on yourselves by the way business has been conducted, thus far.

 

[m249a]

Petunia, my apoligies if I came off as too harsh. I felt you were overly critical in our business plan, and you intentionally baited Damian into a "shouting match" in regards to his personal finances.

Folks, our decision to close the forum to non-members was planned well in advance. No, my intention was not to "slap Bryan in the face" either. I have nothing but respect for what he has accomplished, and we can only hope we reach his level of crediblity in this industry. Bryan I hope you don't view our action as offensive.

Numbers speak, as I write this I am aware of over 2,400 hits on this thread, with over 80 replies. It would appear we have struck a nerve. We have taken your advice to heart, changes WERE made based upon the advice some of you offered, and I again thank all of you for taking the time to offer it.

We felt from the very begining that we would need a closed forum for our members to speak freely. We left the forum open long enough to attract attention. Our date on closing the forum, to the general public was, like I said eariler, meant to coincide with our marketing blitz. We did not start this thread, jetset did. After we were given permission we jumped into the fray. Just because there was a hot topic discussion going on here, doesn't mean we should change our marketing plan, again no offense Bryan.

There is a thin line between confidence and arrogance, at times I may come off as arrogant. My intentions are pure, but my method may be flawed at times. Fair enough.

I cannot say this enough, our decision to close the FORUM was planned and agreed upon 6 weeks ago. We are NOT making a knee-jerk reaction, because some of you think we are all kinds of f#@*ed up. I am certian I will have to repeat that several times. We would be very foolish to piss off the most powerful player/casino advocate on the web today......casinomeister.

Thank you all for your valuable imput.

 

[caruso]

With an "open" site I saw little chance of this taking off as a player advocate group, for the reasons given. Now that for some extraordinary reason it's become "members only" it has no chance whatsoever. A lot of negativity has been expressed on both sides, and such an endeavour can only succeed with transparancy and goodwill. Noting, however, the several references to "marketing" and the delight expressed at the amount of hits and replies to this thread, one concludes that this was always an advertising gimmick for another gambling website.

Good luck to Mark and Damian for their new casino portal. With the kick-start it's had from free advertising at Casinomeister I daresay the dollars are already rolling in.

 

[m249a]

With an "open" site I saw little chance of this taking off as a player advocate group, for the reasons given. Now that for some extraordinary reason it's become "members only" it has no chance whatsoever. A lot of negativity has been expressed on both sides, and such an endeavour can only succeed with transparancy and goodwill. Noting, however, the several references to "marketing" and the delight expressed at the amount of hits and replies to this thread, one concludes that this was always an advertising gimmick for another gambling website.

Good luck to Mark and Damian for their new casino portal. With the kick-start it's had from free advertising at Casinomeister I daresay the dollars are already rolling in.

Thats really out of line caruso, I have shown you respect and taken your advice and criticism to heart. We ar seriously trying to create something that will have a positive impact on this largely unregulated industry.

We do not desire to be "transparent" we are a MEMBERS ONLY union. We have made that clear from the get go. We made no attempt what-so-ever to conceal our desire to profit from our hard work. I expressed no "delight" to the number of hits on this thread. The dollars are not rolling in, and we are PAYING for our advertising. Jetset created a press release for us, at no charge. Even after we offered him a fee for his time. The other forms of advertising we are using we pay for. We are NOT just another gambling portal, we are a PLAYERS UNION. You speak in terms of goodwill, then slap our hand away when we reach it out. If you review my replies to the number of insults we have endured, you will see I made a genuine effort to thank those who offered solid advice, and even thanked those who didn't. No matter what we do it will never be up to your standard caruso, and for that I am trully sorry. At least we are trying to do something, instead of sitting around and wondering what if....

 

[hahacasino]

Every revolution was first a thought in a man's head.

Meister's idea is great, but without his talent and hard work, it would be just an idea.

Union idea is unique, anything that unity people is a good thing, more power to you guys.

 

[caruso]

I acknowledge you ditched - or rather renamed - Damain's system stuff. I don't believe you removed the "girlie" nonsense which is going to alienate about 50% of your market. Beyond the former, I don't know what you did - nor will I, now.

No offence, and you will acknowledge I'm as vocal a player supporter as anyone, but in creating this you've included inappropriate content, made a clear point of looking to profit and having been involved in a "marketing" strategy, got just a tad aggressive in response to criticism and closed your site to the general public. If this is an attempt at a genuine player-advocacy concept I don't think it's been gone about the right way. It needed to be open ("members only" just doesn't cut it), non profit-driven and professionally to the point. As a PORTAL, it's been done OK. Hence my opinion.

 

[padanian]

If this is an attempt at a genuine player-advocacy concept I don't think it's been gone about the right way. It needed to be open ("members only" just doesn't cut it), non profit-driven and professionally to the point. As a PORTAL, it's been done OK. Hence my opinion.

Everybody would be more than glad to have a real union. Damian, if you really want to represent players'interests you should remove any affiliate link from your website. If you leave them you are just giving the message that you want to make money out of the players that will sign in from your web site. A real quality list needs to have only general links to the casinos.

 

[Stanford]

Everybody would be more than glad to have a real union. Damian, if you really want to represent players'interests you should remove any affiliate link from your website. If you leave them you are just giving the message that you want to make money out of the players that will sign in from your web site. A real quality list needs to have only general links to the casinos.

I wondered about that myself. Should a union accept advertising dollars? It seems to me it has to charge members or accept affiliate monies. I don't think charging members will work.

Within the model I advocate, this is something that I would want resolved in the initial charter. I would vote to accept the affiliate monies and limit affiliates to seal holders. There would have to be other controls as well.

I wish Damien and Mark good luck. And I note the interest this thread has brought. For those with alternative ideas, there need not be one union.

Stanford.

 

[bethug]

Caruso, any one can post a picture,(no nudes) people talking about non profit,right now its non profit, have not made a dime or make a dime for a long time. We been giving money out and we will contiue to give money out, saying that. There no casino portal that has insurance. Not one. This money is back by us and we plan to add more.

Even non profits, churches, girl scouts market it self, i dont understand this complaint.

Regarding my hood 3000 system, which I get 3 to 5 emails aday not including the pms, will be market head to toe, how much will I sale it for, lets see 0.00 dollars. The people I have took the time and help are doing well. If you dont like it caruso skip the section.
You can talk about any playing system on that forum now. I dont see what the problem now.

padanian, people know i am all for the player and that will never change, the casinogurdian site before some rogue casino had my free host cut it lose, had no afflicate links,not one and it had a forum. Right now for us to be strong union we need loyal memebers, so we will market for them and give them bonus

Thanks for your input padanian and others. We have made changes , but the main them will remain, union members can vote a casino on and off, entertainment and free money and good chat with less drama

 

[amandajm]

For the record lol..

The OPA worked very well at what they did. Problem resolution and spreading the word.
It worked so well that it was worth selling out - twice.
The "Money" is obviously very complicated..

Anyway.
Of course the OPU can work. Whether it will or not I will wait and see.

For a start - aside the complcated stuff that Jetset, Bryan and Mary and the rest of the OPA heiracy/helpers could'nt get right.

1) Clean up the site code.
2) Remove the hood 3000.
3) Remove the picture thread.
4) Remove advertising for now.
5) Forget the insurance.

I do not know of M248 (Mark) well enough to offer a comment.

Damian though has real attributes somewhere in there. Not for this though. I am however, eager to be proved wrong.

I will gladly help him prove me totally wrong.

I indeed will do 1,2,3,4 and 5 or derivitives thereof tomorrow morning ~ just say the word Damian and Mark. Call it a donation if you like -- or whatever..

 

[bethug]

can someone tell me< how the union should be run? How would you funded it?
joely what am i suited for?

Looking at what you type , we would not have a union or site

So what your plan joely, you been around a while

 

[amandajm]

- Can someone tell me how the union should be run?
- How would you funded it?

I would be simply guessing to answer. II need input from my peers Damian.


=====

- Looking at what you type , we would not have a union or a site..

Honestly, you barely have either sir. (I can help you with the site no sweat, not the numbers in the union)



======

- joely what am i suited for?
- So what your plan joely, you been around a while

You are brutally honest with your opinions.
However, you are also suited to adding a comedic spin to any given news item, however serious.

I have no plan for using those attributes. My personal plan is to get a plan one day.

 

[m249a]

Thank you for your offer Joeyl, however we will take a pass. We and thus far our members agree, are happy with the way things are set up right now. We took to heart some of the sugestions made to us during this discussion, as well as the thread I started over at sucks. Like I have said numerous times, we will never please everyone, we will continue however to make every effort to please our member base and are open to sugestions at any time.

It seems like our "joke section", "rate a picture" and the sub-forum formely known as "hood 3000 system" are drawing the most fire. We have renamed the "hood 3000 system" to simply "gambling systems". Our joke section is clearly marked with a warning, and our rate a picture section is open for all members to post their pictures. We don't care if they post pic's of their cats, dogs, hampsters or their gfriend/bfriend ect...and if they don't like to look at pictures then they have the option of not looking. We understand, and respect that quite a few of you do not like our forum, concept layout ect...thats quite alright we are going to give it a shot anyway.