player's union discussion

[jetset]

QUOTE We should consider forming a players union. Any interest?UNQUOTE

Stanford, I judging by posts over at the other site I think that is what Bethug and a few others are trying to do.

 

[jen]

but they failed to realize that the casino software can identify your computer.

This is explained in details on the Intercasino web site. Casino software creates an encrypted identification file on your hard disk that can not be removed or changed. So changing IP's changes nothing for identification purposes. Probably Boss uses same methods.

 

[Petunia]

** Hey everyone... Just had a quick read through here. I have noticed a trend, and as I am no tech buff, I have to say, again, I notice certain things about posters and the such. IT would seem that there are a lot of complaints about differant casinos as a brand new 'scam' has entered the market. It has nothing to do with money, or wagering, or even payments. I think, honestly, that there are players (or one in particular) that is crying wolf all the time AND get away with it at best. I am not willing to get involved,and as a betting person, let me tell you something... If there is smoke there is fire, but be careful as to who started it! "

 

[padanian]

This is explained in details on the Intercasino web site. Casino software creates an encrypted identification file on your hard disk that can not be removed or changed. So changing IP's changes nothing for identification purposes. Probably Boss uses same methods.

If true, all this casinos could be taken to court, at least by players living in the European Union (at least in countries where online gambling is legal). This practice would be as illegal as opening multiple accounts.

 

[cipher]

QUOTE We should consider forming a players union. Any interest?UNQUOTE

Stanford, I judging by posts over at the other site I think that is what Bethug and a few others are trying to do.

Hi Stanford and Jet, Yes I'm interested in something of that nature. I was racking my brain this morning trying to figure out where I had heard "Player's Union" before but then as you've accurately stated Jet, I remembered that Bethug and m249 pretty much have the rights on the name Players Union tied up.

I'm going to hav't to take a look at their site this afternoon I've been meaning to do that but these days are just not long enough to do everything. Have a good one.

 

[Stanford]

I have something different in mind

Meister, Jetset, Cypher -

I really have something different in mind. I would like a more formal organazation that would give some thought to what a player friendly casino should be. I want an organazation somewhat like eCOGRA but on the players side. More than just deriving principals from complaints, I would like to give some serious thought to priniciples and practices and then apply them when complaints arise.

I would not mind the organazation then awarding a seal of approval and maintaining a warning list.

This is different than what we have now. What we have now are watchdogs each of which have their own thresholds of when they get involved and whose criteria for action is undefined and subjective.

One thing I would like to see the Union do is fan out to all the forums when a problem arrises and make sure it gets exposure. So I anticipate that members would be active - not much different than picket lines in the non cyber world.

I am not sure if there is anything this agressive going on. It would take some work. But why portals are organanized and casinos are organized, players are not.

Just thinking out loud.

Stanford.

 

[jetset]

Setting up something like eCOGRA is not only expensive, but a considerable research and organisational undertaking with ongoing activity that eats up time even with full time staffing, and anyone who can do so successfully would have my total respect, believe me.

From a personal perspective, having been burned twice in OPA 1 and OPA 2 by corrupt *leaders* I would decline involvement in favour of helping where I can. It's a huge amount of work for very little thanks and even personal attacks on occasion from the very people who have been helped.

Getting folks to act in concert and in a disciplined manner is also not always easy, particularly when bonus blandishments are being dangled in front of their noses.

I don't personally believe a player body on the scale, influence and sophistication of eCOGRA is possible, but as I said anyone who proves me wrong will have my admiration, respect and support.

Perhaps lowering the sights for a less ambitious approach could be a useful alternative...maybe even pulling in existing respected watchdogs?

 

[bethug]

Standford, it sounds good, but it will not work.

For one alot of forums are owned by casinos and some are so i debt by others they delete negative post. I visit many forums, and if you post something subsupect. The will delete.

I make more enough money and got everything i want, so I cant be bought, I just mainly want peace, but that will not happen.

Also at the union , the players have a voice. If we all come togehter casinos and other gambling operations will not , try to do rogue behaivor, sorry for my spelling.

 

[Stanford]

Setting up something like eCOGRA is not only expensive, but a considerable research and organisational undertaking with ongoing activity that eats up time even with full time staffing, and anyone who can do so successfully would have my total respect, believe me.

Point taken. There is some difference in that a players union would not need the audit function. We have the players. And we have the eCOGRA template as a take off point for developing defined standards. Seems to me the key to a real players union is developing a solid player base and defined standards.

From a personal perspective, having been burned twice in OPA 1 and OPA 2 by corrupt *leaders* I would decline involvement in favour of helping where I can. It's a huge amount of work for very little thanks and even personal attacks on occasion from the very people who have been helped.

I don't blame you for that. I think the player base would need to choose the leaders. But I don't think there would be many to pick from. Developing standards, putting them out for comment, and conducting member votes would certainly be a lot of work. Doable? Not sure.

Getting folks to act in concert and in a disciplined manner is also not always easy, particularly when bonus blandishments are being dangled in front of their noses.

I think that is probably right. But a players seal could be worth something. For one thing, it would not be as expensive as eCOGRA and for another it would more easily cross software platforms. Actually, Cryptologic casinos would have easily acheived a players seal whereas they are not applying for the eCOGRA seal. The expansion of eCOGRA beyond MicroGaming and CON seems painfully slow.

The union could have alternate ways to get a seal - either a commitment from Management to uphold the standards with a passing vote from the player reps or simply a member initiative. I think the positive reinforcement would be more important for a players union.

I could see how resolution of grievances could lead to pulling the seal, but I think the awarding would be more important.

I don't personally believe a player body on the scale, influence and sophistication of eCOGRA is possible, but as I said anyone who proves me wrong will have my admiration, respect and support.

I certainly believe it is possible and would be great for the industry. But I think it very unlikely. I am pessimistic.

Perhaps lowering the sights for a less ambitious approach could be a useful alternative...maybe even pulling in existing respected watchdogs?

I think so. I am not sure the best way to incorporate them.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Meister could make something like this happen tomorrow. When I was in Las Vegas a couple of years back I discussed it with a member of Anthony Curtis's organization - it would been a great way for him to break into the online world and it would have given the organization instant respectability.

I certainly see all the player forums as part of the natural base for recruiting members and for disseminating information. And watchdogs would make great player reps because they have earned player trust.

If would be foolish to ignore the watchdogs. I just don't know that they would want to participate. I don't even know if we could get the really dedicated players. I remain pessimistic. But just a tad hopeful.

Stanford.

 

[Stanford]

Also at the union , the players have a voice. If we all come togehter casinos and other gambling operations will not , try to do rogue behaivor, sorry for my spelling.

Hi bethug,

I tried to get to your site but I could not get past the coolboard registration. I did read the forum though.

Stanford.

 

[GrandMaster]

This is explained in details on the Intercasino web site. Casino software creates an encrypted identification file on your hard disk that can not be removed or changed. So changing IP's changes nothing for identification purposes. Probably Boss uses same methods.

File that cannot be removed? I doubt it.

 

[caruso]

LOL. I just went to Damian's new "Players' Union" site, and look at the forum that caught my eye immediatly: "HOOD 3000 SYSTEM".

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

...chock-full of posts along the lines of "Thanks for the great advice, Damian, I just made $XXX from the advice you gave me", plus a packet of other cretinous poppycock I can't be bothered to comment on. Check it out for yourselves. To contrive a "players' union" as a front for pushing this snake oil onto the public at large is the lowest of the low. Just disgusting. Isn't it enought that every second thread at Casinomeister these days seems to contain reference to this bullshit?

The idea of a genuine "players' union" (as opposed to this snake-oil front) is appealingly utopian, but it's next to impossible to have muscle in the industry without having connections, and with connections comes the obvious financial compromise.

If anyone ever comes along with muscle to call casinos to order WITHOUT the financially compromising business relationship they'll have a lot of my respect and it'll be an enormous plus for the player community. In the meantime, the watchdog / regulatory situation as it currently stands (forums, affiliates etc etc) isn't at all bad.

 

[m249a]

LOL. I just went to Damian's new "Players' Union" site, and look at the forum that caught my eye immediatly: "HOOD 3000 SYSTEM".

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

...chock-full of posts along the lines of "Thanks for the great advice, Damian, I just made $XXX from the advice you gave me", plus a packet of other cretinous poppycock I can't be bothered to comment on. Check it out for yourselves. To contrive a "players' union" as a front for pushing this snake oil onto the public at large is the lowest of the low. Just disgusting. Isn't it enought that every second thread at Casinomeister these days seems to contain reference to this bullshit?

The idea of a genuine "players' union" (as opposed to this snake-oil front) is appealingly utopian, but it's next to impossible to have muscle in the industry without having connections, and with connections comes the obvious financial compromise.

If anyone ever comes along with muscle to call casinos to order WITHOUT the financially compromising business relationship they'll have a lot of my respect and it'll be an enormous plus for the player community. In the meantime, the watchdog / regulatory situation as it currently stands (forums, affiliates etc etc) isn't at all bad.

Thank you for posting a link to our forum. Understand this, the hood 3000 system is only a small part of our forum. It is, for lack of a better phrase, damian's pet project. You seem to be very vocal about this "system" he has developed. Fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I would like to counter your statement of the snake oil analogy.

Produce one single person who paid a fee to damian for use of his system.

Just one.

You failed to mention the rest of our forum, and how hard we have worked to develop the concepts, and ideas of a genuine players union. I will refrain from promoting these concepts in Bryans forum. I have sent him a pm asking what paramiters I need to stay in, but I encourage everyone to not sabatoge our effort before we have a chance to try. If you feel you can develop something better then go right ahead. There are many more things I would like to say, but this is not my house, its Bryans, and I have asked for premission to say my side.

 

[bethug]

caruso, mr. negative.

No one will every tell you i tried to sale my hood 3000 system, i get 3 to 5 emails aday for the pass year asking me, when i have time, like i told u, call me i will explain. it. I dont mind helping people make money gambling or in real estate.

My forum is not set up to push how i play, not at all, nor am i trying to sale my system. Not one person i should my system too, will complain i made them lose money or ask them for money. I can sit back from all my real estate deals and get paid.

If the members want me to remove it from the forum, I will.
I am going to put up alot of money into building the playersunion and with the help of mark and a few others, we players will have voice.


one more thing caurso, you only post negative stuff or stuff when you get in trouble. People ask me how i play and i tell them, then i get the negative comments.

Everyone knows my system just a nick name of mixture of other old system that been around.

Its so sad caurso that you have to point out one thing , that has nothing to do with postive things we trying to do.

 

[paul02085]

Maybe we could get Steve Atkins and Mike Craig involved.

 

[sw2003]

This is explained in details on the Intercasino web site. Casino software creates an encrypted identification file on your hard disk that can not be removed or changed. So changing IP's changes nothing for identification purposes. Probably Boss uses same methods.

What do you mean cannot be removed? You can delete almost anything on your computer except system files.

 

[sw2003]

Oh, one of the first things if there is going to be a players' union is to push for the project Fair Dice or something similar along the same vein. Don't we all hate to have to take casinos' or software companies' words on the fairness of their card, dice, roulette games? Slots' house advantage and all that are up to the casinos, so one plays those at their own risk which are fine as they are, but card, dice, roulette games should not be just up to the casinos.

 

[The Dude]

I will refrain from promoting these concepts in Bryans forum.

Thanks for the courtesy of requesting permission to post info about a "players' union", but I don't see it as a promotion per se, but as a presentation of information that (obviously) will be open for discussion. Simply put, I have no problem with the discussion just so long as it stays on topic, people refrain from personal insults, and it doesn't reek of spam. There is a special section in the forum where promotional material is allowed.

And we all should know that the only "system" that works is the meister's Bier system. I have posted screen shots to prove this

In fact, come to think of it, I have been the only person who has touted a system, explained the process in detail publicly free of charge, and then produced the results via screenshots. How 'bout them apples?


As for a players union, all I can say is good luck. This has been attempted several times in the past, and I can honestly say - it won't work. Many players are blinded by "free money" and this is where their allegience will lie. Money is also the prime motivator for many people in this business. Look what happened to the OPA I and OPA II. Both Jetset and I got screwed over by two a-holes who put money in front of truthfulness, integrity, honor, and friendship.

By the way, the old OPA's forum is located in the archives (Casinomeister hosted the OPA's Official forum for a little over a year).

There are parallels here, and before some of you invest too much of your time and effort, you should tap on few of these resources and foresee what may be problematic. I'd hate to see anyone waste their time and become totally discouraged thinking they are doing a good thing. There are a lot of viscious people out there who like to see things like this fail - but I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this.

In the meantime, the watchdog / regulatory situation as it currently stands (forums, affiliates etc etc) isn't at all bad.

It's probably as good as it's going to get. How is this "union" going to be any different than what has been attempted in the past? What's the plan?

 

[bethug]

The union will not be bought out, you can see that on front page, ( or me) People have tried to pay me to place them on my top ten. Did I take the money nope, I do believe some of the extra bonus I got came from them casinos, but I didn't need the money.

Also my other site onlinecasinoguardian, got bump off the free host, cause of one of the crackhead casinos didn't like me putting the truth out there.

The union will not failed like the opa, main reason I cant be bought. We also going to give back 20% of any profits made by the union back to the union members. We have insurance in place, out of my pocket not coming from no casino, or sportsbook and another 6 months we will add to that fund and up the insurance.

If enough players get together they can call a vote, to either vote a casino, sportbook on or off the approved list. We will go after full force any crack head place.

I know all about players fraud, I been hit up with to many time thru out the last 5 years.

Casinomeister is only the true watchdog right now, Want say no names, but I seen sites/forums delete threads cause the player got burned by one of there advertisers.

I saw for my on eyes the so called number sportsbook watch dog, delete treads
Cause the mighty dollar bought them out.

When people tell me something cant get done that push me even more, Just like when I was 19 people told me I would not make money in real estate or the test was hard, pass it onthe first try.

One other thing, I keep my word. I will not be bought out. The union have many benefits, just watch and see.

Forgot about sirius, beside you meister the the only true watchdog out there, (he just a little rough)

 

[m249a]

Gloves are off

1.) We are an exculsive players union. We are not interested in having casino operators/employees posting in our forum. We plan to act just like a labor union does. We will use the number base of our union to negotiate exclusive promotions for our members. We will also, if needed use our member base for negative action campaigns against clip joints, and crook casinos.

2.) We have gone to great lengths to set up and run an interactive, and thoughtful forum.

3.) We have developed a strike concept. This is a last resort action that can be used to show our strength. We are attempting to player regulate a largely un-regulated industry. We will simply block send an email to our member base, with a generic non-offensive message to the offending casino, sports book, poker room or bingo parlor. The union member will make an INDIVIDUAL decision to send that email to the target. We cannot force compliance, we do strongly encourage all of our members to comply, but there are no negative repercussions if the member declines to participate. We will also spread the strike motion to all forums in our database, issue press releases ect...

4.) There are NO union dues. There will never be union dues.

5.) We have advertisers. We need to cover our overhead costs. Plus Damian and I would like to profit from our venture. Spare me the negative crap about having advertisers on our site.

6.) We back up our advertisers with our own money. We have in place a player insurance policy. Registered union members, who sign up and play thru our affiliate links, are garaunteed protection against unethical behavior from said advertiser. Not loser insurance, but fraud and abuse insurance. Currently we are at $500.00 USD. This amount is subject to be increased, and will never decrease.

Damian and I worked very hard developing and running this union. We welcome imput, and constructive critisism. We also beg your indulgence, by not saying we are going to fail before we have had the chance to succeed. We cannot and will not be everything to everyone, we will however give this union everything we have in order for it to become successful. ln the early days of workers unions, the nay-sayers and company owners tried very hard to stop them. We expect nothing less from our end either. I assure you all, Damian and I are commited to see this thing thru, and we ask for your support.

 

[lanidar]

I believe the "PLAYERS UNION" s a WONDERFUL idea.
You two keep the faith.
I know you've put much time and effort to get your site up and running.
DO NOT let anyone discurage EITHER of you in the least!

You need my help ... you know how to find me. ​

 

[caruso]

I agree this is unrealistically optimistic, and for the same reason Bryan gives - though there will be a few others. This is based on the "boycott" concept: get enough members to pull their patronization and you'll bring the bad boys into line. It won't work. Look at the evidence from right here or at WOL. How many times do you see the same, idiotic repeating pattern? - Player posts "warning" to not play at casino XYZ; soon after, another player posts exactly the same "warning". Why does this happen, over and over again?

PLAYERS DO NOT HEED WARNINGS, THEY ONLY POST THEM.

This is long and well-established fact. Players are not remotely interested in warnings to stay away. Their interest is only engaged when they have a problem and feel the need to vent. Then, they post a warning - which has as much chance of being heeded as the warnings they themselves ignored. For some reason, players believe that everyone heeds warnings apart from themselves, so that whilst they will of course ignore all warnings, any warning they themselves post will be heeded!

Whether or not you are part of a "general" community or a specific one - such as this "union" idea - makes no difference. Players will continue to ignore each other. If you think you can buck that trend go right ahead; it'll be a complete waste of time.

And, seriously now, do you really think you do service to a project like this by sticking in a big chunk dedicated to some "system" snake-oil junk? What if OPA 1 had had a column entitled "Steve Adkin's guarenteed-$2000-a-week blackjack system"? How seriously would they have been taken? If you're pushing for a serious project at least make it look professional. If you intend on running with this (which I don't see as time well spent) at least bin that crap.

 

[m249a]

Thank you for your support lanidar.

Caruso, history has shown that the most agressive and revolutionary ideas were met with extreme opposition. I understand and to an extent respect your opinion. Your opinion however, will not stop us from trying.

As far as your "snake oil" comment, we dedicate very little space to the "hood 3000 system". This is nothing more then Damians pet project, and members are free to comment about his system as they see fit.
My eariler challenge to you stands, produce one person who paid a fee to Damian for use of his system.

PLAYERS DO NOT HEED WARNINGS, THEY ONLY POST THEM.

This is long and well-established fact. Players are not remotely interested in warnings to stay away. Their interest is only engaged when they have a problem and feel the need to vent. Then, they post a warning - which has as much chance of being heeded as the warnings they themselves ignored. For some reason, players believe that everyone heeds warnings apart from themselves, so that whilst they will of course ignore all warnings, any warning they themselves post will be heeded!

Fair enough, only time will tell in regards to our concept of a union. We feel that our concept will work, and we will give it 100% effort to see.

Nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[Stanford]

I agree this is unrealistically optimistic, and for the same reason Bryan gives - though there will be a few others. This is based on the "boycott" concept: get enough members to pull their patronization and you'll bring the bad boys into line. It won't work...
PLAYERS DO NOT HEED WARNINGS, THEY ONLY POST THEM.

I think the awarding a seal and getting commitment to standards is more important.

I indicated above that a players union might be more doable now simply because of the eCOGRA model. A union should be able to duplicate relevant parts of the template much more cheaply. And because there is no audit cost, awarding the seal could be a powerful inducement - as well as revoking it. eCOGRA has not expanded beyond MicroGaming and CON. I think a PU could.

As for boycotts, I doubt they work with sophisticated players. And why should I care? If XYZ is a dog, I don't care if you cross the boycott. You will only do so if you have a fair shot of relieving them of their coin. But recreational players? Ah that is different. Given easy alternatives, certainly a well thought out and executed boycott would have some effect. Particularly if it was discussed in all the relevant forums.

I dont think this is likely to happen simply because it hasnt happened. But I disagree with those who say it couldnt work. It could.

I will take the Meisters advice and check out some of the old archived forums. I am not sure what caused the demise of OPA1 and OPA2, but whatever there is to learn is probably worth learning.

Bethug, how has your players group reacted to the OMNI debacle?

Stanford.

 

[dominique]

It is very difficult to achieve credibility for any attempt like that.

Awarding a seal in itself is a very tricky thing - just whom will one believe?

It should be a completely uninvolved party with the skill to determine these things - and look how much it cost eCOGRA to establish that and how much opposition they met with. Establishing credibility is a slippery slope - as you already see in this thread. You will have your habitual "nay sayers" like Caruso who will oppose it whatever it is, you have the distrustful who will see pecuniary advantage everywhere, and you will have personal clashes undermining things.

I wish you all the luck - I have been a proponent of a player's association for a long time.