Play 'n go - Different RTP at different sites!

[geordiecolin]

That is very strange because most other casinos do have the RTP shown.

Have you checked with live chat and see what they have to say about it? Or perhaps the rep here if they have one?

Yesterday I pointed out some difficulties to customer support that I found while trying to navigate around the site. I was advised to email screen shots of what I was talking about. The return email stated that very soon they will no longer be operating in the UK market. I have no idea if this only effects the UK,but I would be very wary of depositing there in case there is something we are not being told

 

[BlaCGaming]

That is very strange because most other casinos do have the RTP shown.

Have you checked with live chat and see what they have to say about it? Or perhaps the rep here if they have one?

What I have found out:

 

[Mr Wild]

What I have found out:

View attachment 77634

They host PlayNGo from Curacao I believe due to the URL you posted. As its under Curacao licence, I dont believe they are required to show the RTP.

 

[BlaCGaming]

They host PlayNGo from Curacao I believe due to the URL you posted. As its under Curacao licence, I dont believe they are required to show the RTP.

Thanks!

So is there any way for players to find out what its running at?

If its at 60% we may never know?

 

[Mr Wild]

Thanks!

So is there any way for players to find out what its running at?

If its at 60% we may never know?

I know PlayNGo offers three sets of RTP to their operators. Either 89%, 94% or 96%. However Im not 100% sure about the numbers, but its something like that.

 

[brianmon]

It's no different to MGS.
You won't find any RTP% info, within any Microgaming game -
paytable or info file

 

[BlaCGaming]

It's no different to MGS.
You won't find any RTP% info, within any Microgaming game -
paytable or info file

But the difference here is that some operators do display it.

As far as I understand MGS does not display it anywhere?

 

[videoslotheaven]

All sites who run the huger rtp version shows in help file. If that line is missing its a lower rtp version of the game. Im pretty certain. Seen this in some sites now and on all those sites the game is shittyer than usual

 

[Mr Wild]

All sites who run the huger rtp version shows in help file. If that line is missing its a lower rtp version of the game. Im pretty certain. Seen this in some sites now and on all those sites the game is shittyer than usual

Regardless if they had the highest RTP or lowest, it wouldnt show in the helpfile under the Curacao licence. The operator dont have access to edit the helpfile, only PlayNGo can do it. I believe it set by PnG for each market on the requirements for the licence.

 

[Fridayhigh]

Microgaming may very well have their RTP set in stone at the development stage according to the par sheet, I have no reason to doubt that But what they don't tell you is they use different RNG's for the same game in different jurisdictions. Now I would believe the UKGC would be the toughest, and Malta their after, and Kahnawake - well we know about them and poker. When questioned, I was told they work in different ways, but be assured the end results are the same. My question end results for WHO?. And with testing by ecogra, the RNG's variable parameters can be within 95 percent and still pass. I would hate to be that player in the 5 % that doesn't and I have been. They submt multiple RNG's for testing and approval, and their needs to be only one for every game imaginable. So make of that as you will. And I'am a firm believer the multiplatform, flashbased casinos which have become the majority these days are employing a class 2 type of machine. With the advent of superior technology of bi-directional micro second server processing to keep in check an RTP of a particular game played by everyone at the same time, nullifying one particular player and his/her individual gameplay in line with that games parsheet and RNG. Meaning the parsheet might dictate within the coding of the game a hit rate on average every 15 spins, yet you are getting nothing but 2 scatters even money, every 75 spins for eternity, while someone else who usually plays 9 quid or euros a spin, drops down to 9 pence a spin is hitting features and freespins every 15 spins. Overall the game is playing according to the parsheet and RTP is spot on, but for the stand alone player, the consequences are drastic. Compare this to a stand alone landbased machine where one chip is supervised when installed and cant be altered. in other words with different RNGs being used subjectively it's no different then sitting down at a blackjack table with a 100 decks stacked in the shoe or only one, or a massive roulette wheel being used with a hundred of each 36 numbers and zero. Making losing streaks and winning streaks far more drastic.

 

[dunover]

Microgaming may very well have their RTP set in stone at the development stage according to the par sheet, I have no reason to doubt that But what they don't tell you is they use different RNG's for the same game in different jurisdictions. Now I would believe the UKGC would be the toughest, and Malta their after, and Kahnawake - well we know about them and poker. When questioned, I was told they work in different ways, but be assured the end results are the same. My question end results for WHO?. And with testing by ecogra, the RNG's variable parameters can be within 95 percent and still pass. I would hate to be that player in the 5 % that doesn't and I have been. They submt multiple RNG's for testing and approval, and their needs to be only one for every game imaginable. So make of that as you will. And I'am a firm believer the multiplatform, flashbased casinos which have become the majority these days are employing a class 2 type of machine. With the advent of superior technology of bi-directional micro second server processing to keep in check an RTP of a particular game played by everyone at the same time, nullifying one particular player and his/her individual gameplay in line with that games parsheet and RNG. Meaning the parsheet might dictate within the coding of the game a hit rate on average every 15 spins, yet you are getting nothing but 2 scatters even money, every 75 spins for eternity, while someone else who usually plays 9 quid or euros a spin, drops down to 9 pence a spin is hitting features and freespins every 15 spins. Overall the game is playing according to the parsheet and RTP is spot on, but for the stand alone player, the consequences are drastic. Compare this to a stand alone landbased machine where one chip is supervised when installed and cant be altered. in other words with different RNGs being used subjectively it's no different then sitting down at a blackjack table with a 100 decks stacked in the shoe or only one, or a massive roulette wheel being used with a hundred of each 36 numbers and zero. Making losing streaks and winning streaks far more drastic.

What he's saying is that he believes (like many here including myself have said on occasion) is that despite the RNG basis for the result selection, there is a fiscal/accounting algorithm at work which has scope to influence results in terms of a monetary cost to the casinos, an advanced form of compensation.

 

[Jono777]

...yes, (if I'm thinking along the right lines) I've tried (and probably failed) to word similar in the past.

There simply has to be.

Imagine if all the DoA wild lines paid from the same 2-3 casinos, they'd soon be in trouble, especially if hi rollers were about.

The RTP has to be spread across all the casinos under the umbrella that offers a particular game for fairness to the casino and the player.

For this to work there has to be some sort of "inhibitors" or compensation, would explain why some moan about never having any luck at casino 'x'

 

[SpinDoctor]

There's quite a bit of misunderstanding around this subject. So I thought i'd try to clear the air a bit..

First of all I want to be very clear that casino's are not able to affect the game in any direct way.. not that anyone will believe me, of course
All games (regardless of provider) run either on the developers own platform, or in some cases (especially with smaller developers) on a third party platform, to which the casino's connect to but don't control. The only real control the casino has is on the players 'Wallet'. Of course, the casino does control the website itself but they have no more control on the games than Netflix has on the content of the movies it distributes, even less actually.

When you press spin, what happens is the game/platform requests the casino to confirm that you have enough funds in your 'Wallet' to cover the bet. Assuming your have enough funds, the casino replies back to the game/platform that it's ok to proceed. The game will generate a result and if you had a win the game/platform will send the win amount to the casino, at which point they will credit the funds to your 'Wallet'.
Of course, to make it more interesting to the players there's lots of bright colors, loud sounds, and things like timing delays to build up the excitement etc.

The entire process is somewhat more complicated but that's the gist of it. Also, for the benefit of this conversation i don't make a distinction between the game and the platform. In this context the two are basically the same but from a technical pov there is a big difference. In this case it doesn't matter so i'm not gonna go into that detail.
But the important thing is that, even though different casinos can offer different RTP versions of the same game (for regulatory purposes games with different RTP would be considered different games and each would have to be certified separately), they are not able to change the RTP on the fly.

Now, about making games with varying RTP...

Some developers indeed make multiple 'versions' of the same game with differing RTP.
The reason is very simple.. to give the casino an option on how much profit they will make from it. There's nothing sinister about this though. As mentioned earlier, casino's operate in different markets that might have very different kind of cost associated with them.. So, even though a casino can make a profit on a game with 96% RTP on most markets, it doesn't mean they can make a profit in all. Or, it could be that they're just greedy.. they're casino's after all, and there's no other reason for running a casino except to make money. But again, it's not like this is done secretly as the RTP is shown in the game.
The most obvious example is the difference between land-based and online casinos. Because the overhead on land-based casinos is higher the games have to be lower RTP for the casino to cover their costs. Think of games that are available on both, like Raging Rhino or Book of Ra.. I'm sure you all know the RTP on land-based is lower but no one cries foul over this.

Generally speaking most casinos choose to offer the highest RTP version to their players. This is an important point for all you tinfoil hatters out there. As, even in cases where casinos are perfectly within their rights to offer a game with lower RTP, usually they choose to offer the higher RTP version. If they were so hell-bent on trying to screw you why would they do this. Again, the reason is very simple... competition. If one casino offers book of dead with 96% RTP and another with 91%, which one are you going to play at? That being said, you should always confirm the RTP in the game help files before playing.

One thing to note is that making multiple versions of the same game is actually quite rare. Even though there's nothing wrong with it, in reality, most developers will make one version and it's not possible to change it in any meaningful way. Minor graphical changes are possible in some cases. Usually this is done for branding purposes and most commonly with table games... for example, it might be possible to add the casino logo to the chips or to the felt. But, having multiple versions of the same game is rather the exception than the rule.

As for notifying players if there is any change in game RTP.. Like Dunover already showed, the requirements are different depending on what license the casino holds. So, it's worth taking that into account as well when choosing the right casino for you..

 

[Fridayhigh]

There's quite a bit of misunderstanding around this subject. So I thought i'd try to clear the air a bit..

First of all I want to be very clear that casino's are not able to affect the game in any direct way.. not that anyone will believe me, of course
All games (regardless of provider) run either on the developers own platform, or in some cases (especially with smaller developers) on a third party platform, to which the casino's connect to but don't control. The only real control the casino has is on the players 'Wallet'. Of course, the casino does control the website itself but they have no more control on the games than Netflix has on the content of the movies it distributes, even less actually.

When you press spin, what happens is the game/platform requests the casino to confirm that you have enough funds in your 'Wallet' to cover the bet. Assuming your have enough funds, the casino replies back to the game/platform that it's ok to proceed. The game will generate a result and if you had a win the game/platform will send the win amount to the casino, at which point they will credit the funds to your 'Wallet'.
Of course, to make it more interesting to the players there's lots of bright colors, loud sounds, and things like timing delays to build up the excitement etc.

The entire process is somewhat more complicated but that's the gist of it. Also, for the benefit of this conversation i don't make a distinction between the game and the platform. In this context the two are basically the same but from a technical pov there is a big difference. In this case it doesn't matter so i'm not gonna go into that detail.
But the important thing is that, even though different casinos can offer different RTP versions of the same game (for regulatory purposes games with different RTP would be considered different games and each would have to be certified separately), they are not able to change the RTP on the fly.

Now, about making games with varying RTP...

Some developers indeed make multiple 'versions' of the same game with differing RTP.
The reason is very simple.. to give the casino an option on how much profit they will make from it. There's nothing sinister about this though. As mentioned earlier, casino's operate in different markets that might have very different kind of cost associated with them.. So, even though a casino can make a profit on a game with 96% RTP on most markets, it doesn't mean they can make a profit in all. Or, it could be that they're just greedy.. they're casino's after all, and there's no other reason for running a casino except to make money. But again, it's not like this is done secretly as the RTP is shown in the game.
The most obvious example is the difference between land-based and online casinos. Because the overhead on land-based casinos is higher the games have to be lower RTP for the casino to cover their costs. Think of games that are available on both, like Raging Rhino or Book of Ra.. I'm sure you all know the RTP on land-based is lower but no one cries foul over this.

Generally speaking most casinos choose to offer the highest RTP version to their players. This is an important point for all you tinfoil hatters out there. As, even in cases where casinos are perfectly within their rights to offer a game with lower RTP, usually they choose to offer the higher RTP version. If they were so hell-bent on trying to screw you why would they do this. Again, the reason is very simple... competition. If one casino offers book of dead with 96% RTP and another with 91%, which one are you going to play at? That being said, you should always confirm the RTP in the game help files before playing.

One thing to note is that making multiple versions of the same game is actually quite rare. Even though there's nothing wrong with it, in reality, most developers will make one version and it's not possible to change it in any meaningful way. Minor graphical changes are possible in some cases. Usually this is done for branding purposes and most commonly with table games... for example, it might be possible to add the casino logo to the chips or to the felt. But, having multiple versions of the same game is rather the exception than the rule.

As for notifying players if there is any change in game RTP.. Like Dunover already showed, the requirements are different depending on what license the casino holds. So, it's worth taking that into account as well when choosing the right casino for you..

 

[Fridayhigh]

So what you're saying is the RNG along with the RTP of any given game is of no real significance. As the RNG is a pseuda RNG and is separate from controlling the outcome of the game as the server determines that, and the PRNG is just there to serve the screen with eye candy to give the impression of randomness.

 

[SpinDoctor]

So what you're saying is the RNG along with the RTP of any given game is of no real significance. As the RNG is a pseuda RNG and is separate from controlling the outcome of the game as the server determines that, and the PRNG is just there to serve the screen with eye candy to give the impression of randomness.

Hey Fridayhigh,

I'm not sure if i follow you here.

I don't want to try to explain the functioning of the RNG as frankly I don't understand it well enough myself. But there are some checks and balances of course.. RNG's must comply with the regulations for the given market, and also need to be certified by an independent test house. I feel like that's enough for me, otherwise i wouldn't play.
If more transparency is needed we can always contact our chosen representatives and demand them to enact stricter gambling regulations. If the market is big enough and the requirements are reasonable the game providers and casinos will happily comply.. otherwise they'll exit the market.

My intention was only to explain how the communication flows between the game provider and the casino; because once you understand this you see that the casino doesn't have the capabilities to adjust the game's RTP. Except by releasing another version of the game with lower RTP, in which case the casino would be subject to some regulatory requirements to notify players, as covered before. And, even if no notification was required it wouldn't be possible to switch the versions on the fly because it's just not technically feasible. You would have to first exit the game and then launch the other version.

As for how everything you see on the screen is connected to the game outcome.. the answer is that the two aren't really connected in any meaningful way. What you win or lose on any given spin is decided on the server. What you see in the game client is just a visual representation of the result as already chosen by the RNG.
When you launch a game what you're really doing is downloading a program that then runs locally in your browser. Which then goes on to communicate with the game/platform, and the game/platform continues to communicate with the casino/wallet. The only function that a customers browser (or anything shown in it) has in the whole process is to detect when you want to place a bet or change settings, and to display you the fancy visuals and play the sounds.

 

[Fridayhigh]

Hey Fridayhigh,

I'm not sure if i follow you here.

I don't want to try to explain the functioning of the RNG as frankly I don't understand it well enough myself. But there are some checks and balances of course.. RNG's must comply with the regulations for the given market, and also need to be certified by an independent test house. I feel like that's enough for me, otherwise i wouldn't play.
If more transparency is needed we can always contact our chosen representatives and demand them to enact stricter gambling regulations. If the market is big enough and the requirements are reasonable the game providers and casinos will happily comply.. otherwise they'll exit the market.

My intention was only to explain how the communication flows between the game provider and the casino; because once you understand this you see that the casino doesn't have the capabilities to adjust the game's RTP. Except by releasing another version of the game with lower RTP, in which case the casino would be subject to some regulatory requirements to notify players, as covered before. And, even if no notification was required it wouldn't be possible to switch the versions on the fly because it's just not technically feasible. You would have to first exit the game and then launch the other version.

As for how everything you see on the screen is connected to the game outcome.. the answer is that the two aren't really connected in any meaningful way. What you win or lose on any given spin is decided on the server. What you see in the game client is just a visual representation of the result as already chosen by the RNG.
When you launch a game what you're really doing is downloading a program that then runs locally in your browser. Which then goes on to communicate with the game/platform, and the game/platform continues to communicate with the casino/wallet. The only function that a customers browser (or anything shown in it) has in the whole process is to detect when you want to place a bet or change settings, and to display you the fancy visuals and play the sounds.

I appreciate what you have explained. But I still would like the answer to the question which always goes amiss. That is, we are really playing a class 2 machine when we play on line at a flash based multiplatform casino, such as those in New York and Washington State in their land based casinos. We are lead to believe differently. The reason I state this is when a "Play N Go" game I was on started to freeze up and then eventually come back, the game (screen) was different, as I was on a feature, when disputed with VS they called those in Malta office of Play n go and said the server results stand. The server result is not the screen result. The RNG responsible for the screen is to display many different patterns for essentially the same payout as to appear random. How the server decides those wins is not on a standalone basis for one player and one machine as if you walked into a casino and only one machine was there and not connected to any server through ethernet cable. You can still cable land based machines to a central server for accounting purposes, but that server does not dictate results, only records them such as "Slotscanner" We have all seen the changes with microgaming and quickfire, and remember the time when our log reports were stored on our own compute. And over time seen the results sadly. How many people would be happy to play roulette at a casino where you and two others put a tenner on say # 22 and it hits and be happy to be paid 11 to 1 instead of 35 to 1. And that is about what is going on with central server online gaming now. Like playing the lottery.

 

[torors]

I appreciate what you have explained. But I still would like the answer to the question which always goes amiss. That is, we are really playing a class 2 machine when we play on line at a flash based multiplatform casino, such as those in New York and Washington State in their land based casinos. We are lead to believe differently. The reason I state this is when a "Play N Go" game I was on started to freeze up and then eventually come back, the game (screen) was different, as I was on a feature, when disputed with VS they called those in Malta office of Play n go and said the server results stand. The server result is not the screen result. The RNG responsible for the screen is to display many different patterns for essentially the same payout as to appear random. How the server decides those wins is not on a standalone basis for one player and one machine as if you walked into a casino and only one machine was there and not connected to any server through ethernet cable. You can still cable land based machines to a central server for accounting purposes, but that server does not dictate results, only records them such as "Slotscanner" We have all seen the changes with microgaming and quickfire, and remember the time when our log reports were stored on our own compute. And over time seen the results sadly. How many people would be happy to play roulette at a casino where you and two others put a tenner on say # 22 and it hits and be happy to be paid 11 to 1 instead of 35 to 1. And that is about what is going on with central server online gaming now. Like playing the lottery.

Look, game providers and the casinos doesn't need all these fancy tricks to fool its players. The games have an RTP below 100%. The law of large numbers takes care of the rest and the casinos make money anyway.

 

[torors]

Ups, double post.

 

[Fridayhigh]

Look, game providers and the casinos doesn't need all these fancy tricks to fool its players. The games have an RTP below 100%. The law of large numbers takes care of the rest and the casinos make money anyway.

Don't put words in my mouth. Just answer the question. The lottery is not a scam, because they are up front, that is the difference, terrible game, a tax for the stupid maybe, but they don't hide the fact. Explain why the high limit tables are always on their live casino, such as those provided by Evolution gaming.

 

[NeverLucky]

OK Petter has cleared this one up for us!

Hi D,
Yes indeed, we’ll be at ice. Please drop by and ask for me and say hi!

So, all our games comes in a default RTP of 96%. As an example, Book of Dead has 96,21%, 7 Sins has 96,28% and Holiday Season has 96,51%.

Depending on which market and jurisdiction the client want to use/launch the game, we’ve added different RTP levels.

So Play’n GO releases the games with 96.xx% by default, then the client can change to another config if they chooses to do so. So each operator act on their own.

Each game and it’s RTP is certified for ALL regulated markets and controlled by NMi as a test house.

BTW, all providers offers different setups for their games and so does Play’n GO to be up to date with all markets and regulations.

Best Regards and see you at ICE,

Well, now we know! Some diligence is due by players here, and I really hope the operator(s) actually change the RTP figure in their casino rather than leaving the developers (higher) default in the rules while offering a lower version! We need eyes up our asses here!

If there are multiple RTP Versions available, what stops a Casino from changing the Games to a lower RTP version for Players who've had a good run of luck and quite a few Cashouts?
Im not saying they do that, but then again, im guessing that would be theoretically possible.

 

[Fridayhigh]

If there are multiple RTP Versions available, what stops a Casino from changing the Games to a lower RTP version for Players who've had a good run of luck and quite a few Cashouts?
Im not saying they do that, but then again, im guessing that would be theoretically possible.

You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth.

 

[paul7388]

S

You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth.

So that is what happens when you take a little blue pill before bed.

Thanks better cancel that order now lol or missus is going to be so dissapointed

 

[Fridayhigh]

Speaking of RED pills and BLUE pills like RTP and RNG. We essentially have say two schools who grade their students in different ways. Both schools report the same outcome every semester to the regulators. One school grades their students on what percentage of the questions answered correctly on their exam. The other grades all their students on a curve. Each school reports equally the same amount of failed grades, passed grades and say excelled A grades. Both schools claim their systems are fair. But we know different. One school can be made up of complete idiots. But to the regional school board appear and are to be judged the same. Reminds me of the deal in Poker Stars, they claim to have one of the most sophisticated PRNG going, so as to be fair. The problem is the variables that the RNG should work from are distorted. All 52 cards remain to choose from, after every card is dealt, a reshuffle essentially after every card dealt, similar to how blackjack is dealt making card counting useless on line. But then the server program cuts in with the RNG's choice and essentially says yes or no - 0 or 1, This is done to not allow the same card to be dealt twice. But in that yes or no process is the meat and potatoes of every casino game that differs from live and correct play. The RNG can be true or as good as any pseudo RNG can be. The RTP of any game can be true to the coding of the developers par sheet. But the process can be intercepted and nulled until it finds a suitable acceptable outcome, hence rejecting a card already dealt or a win, that would raise the RTP above that which the game was programed for. Keeping everything above board for the regional school boards to say all is as should be. If you want to believe that interception and null process can be tailored to individual players accounts as well as casinos, well the technology already exists, that's a fact. It's then just a matter of what pill you find easier to swallow RED or BLUE. They say its dodgy to order on line, best to consult your local GP The choice is yours

 

[bebo67]

There's quite a bit of misunderstanding around this subject. So I thought i'd try to clear the air a bit..

First of all I want to be very clear that casino's are not able to affect the game in any direct way.. not that anyone will believe me, of course
All games (regardless of provider) run either on the developers own platform, or in some cases (especially with smaller developers) on a third party platform, to which the casino's connect to but don't control. The only real control the casino has is on the players 'Wallet'. Of course, the casino does control the website itself but they have no more control on the games than Netflix has on the content of the movies it distributes, even less actually.

When you press spin, what happens is the game/platform requests the casino to confirm that you have enough funds in your 'Wallet' to cover the bet. Assuming your have enough funds, the casino replies back to the game/platform that it's ok to proceed. The game will generate a result and if you had a win the game/platform will send the win amount to the casino, at which point they will credit the funds to your 'Wallet'.
Of course, to make it more interesting to the players there's lots of bright colors, loud sounds, and things like timing delays to build up the excitement etc.

The entire process is somewhat more complicated but that's the gist of it. Also, for the benefit of this conversation i don't make a distinction between the game and the platform. In this context the two are basically the same but from a technical pov there is a big difference. In this case it doesn't matter so i'm not gonna go into that detail.
But the important thing is that, even though different casinos can offer different RTP versions of the same game (for regulatory purposes games with different RTP would be considered different games and each would have to be certified separately), they are not able to change the RTP on the fly.

Now, about making games with varying RTP...

Some developers indeed make multiple 'versions' of the same game with differing RTP.
The reason is very simple.. to give the casino an option on how much profit they will make from it. There's nothing sinister about this though. As mentioned earlier, casino's operate in different markets that might have very different kind of cost associated with them.. So, even though a casino can make a profit on a game with 96% RTP on most markets, it doesn't mean they can make a profit in all. Or, it could be that they're just greedy.. they're casino's after all, and there's no other reason for running a casino except to make money. But again, it's not like this is done secretly as the RTP is shown in the game.
The most obvious example is the difference between land-based and online casinos. Because the overhead on land-based casinos is higher the games have to be lower RTP for the casino to cover their costs. Think of games that are available on both, like Raging Rhino or Book of Ra.. I'm sure you all know the RTP on land-based is lower but no one cries foul over this.

Generally speaking most casinos choose to offer the highest RTP version to their players. This is an important point for all you tinfoil hatters out there. As, even in cases where casinos are perfectly within their rights to offer a game with lower RTP, usually they choose to offer the higher RTP version. If they were so hell-bent on trying to screw you why would they do this. Again, the reason is very simple... competition. If one casino offers book of dead with 96% RTP and another with 91%, which one are you going to play at? That being said, you should always confirm the RTP in the game help files before playing.

One thing to note is that making multiple versions of the same game is actually quite rare. Even though there's nothing wrong with it, in reality, most developers will make one version and it's not possible to change it in any meaningful way. Minor graphical changes are possible in some cases. Usually this is done for branding purposes and most commonly with table games... for example, it might be possible to add the casino logo to the chips or to the felt. But, having multiple versions of the same game is rather the exception than the rule.

As for notifying players if there is any change in game RTP.. Like Dunover already showed, the requirements are different depending on what license the casino holds. So, it's worth taking that into account as well when choosing the right casino for you..

You cleared up a few questions in my mind. Now I have another one concerning versions of the same game. Is it possible for casino A to have one PlaynGo game sound different on casino B's? Same game, but different sound effects.

 

[Gaz237]

You cleared up a few questions in my mind. Now I have another one concerning versions of the same game. Is it possible for casino A to have one PlaynGo game sound different on casino B's? Same game, but different sound effects.

I know it's not PlaynGo , but Blueprint

Ted has different sounds and symbols. the voice is different between Videoslots and Leovegas. Also it's a Ted face in the big money pyramid game on Videoslots, but is a flash symbol on Leovegas.

No idea why it's different.

 

[paul7388]

I know it's not PlaynGo , but Blueprint

Ted has different sounds and symbols. the voice is different between Videoslots and Leovegas. Also it's a Ted face in the big money pyramid game on Videoslots, but is a flash symbol on Leovegas.

No idea why it's different.

Asked Dan that as soon as game came out why VS had a different version and he explained the owners needed to change the swearing and certain features and every other casino would have to have new version within a few weeks.

Months later and all the other casinos still have original version.

Find some slots are totally different at different casinos. Try the Red Tiger game Jingle Bells at VS . Paddy Power and William Hill. It plays totally different at the 3 sites. You would think you were playing different slots entirely. I know their are daily jackpots etc. that might effect things but even between PP and WH wcich both have Daily Jackpots the slot plays so different.

 

[bebo67]

Asked Dan that as soon as game came out why VS had a different version and he explained the owners needed to change the swearing and certain features and every other casino would have to have new version within a few weeks.

Months later and all the other casinos still have original version.

Find some slots are totally different at different casinos. Try the Red Tiger game Jingle Bells at VS . Paddy Power and William Hill. It plays totally different at the 3 sites. You would think you were playing different slots entirely. I know their are daily jackpots etc. that might effect things but even between PP and WH wcich both have Daily Jackpots the slot plays so different.

I find that both bizarre and concerning. And no one knows why so far.

 

[SpinDoctor]

You cleared up a few questions in my mind. Now I have another one concerning versions of the same game. Is it possible for casino A to have one PlaynGo game sound different on casino B's? Same game, but different sound effects.

Yes, it's possible. I can't think of any good reason to change the sound but there's no rule against it as far as i know. Usually any intentional changes are made for graphics for branding purposes.

Perhaps the casinos are serving a different version of the game for some reason.. Maybe running on different platforms, one of which has an older version. Games get updated all the time. Usually to fix small graphical or sound errors.. just think of how many different kind of phones, tablets, computers and what not these games have to run on. There's always going to be something.

 

[SpinDoctor]

Find some slots are totally different at different casinos. Try the Red Tiger game Jingle Bells at VS . Paddy Power and William Hill. It plays totally different at the 3 sites. You would think you were playing different slots entirely. I know their are daily jackpots etc. that might effect things but even between PP and WH wcich both have Daily Jackpots the slot plays so different.

I'm not familiar with Red Tigers' Jingle Bells but if there are daily jackpots in some of the games then that money has to come from somewhere.

A common way to add daily jackpots is to lower the RTP of the game itself by a few percentage points, and use that extra RTP that's now been freed to pay for the jackpot. The game would have to be re-certified of course and game rules modified. So, if one game has a jackpot and the other doesn't.. they should play different

It's quite possible that Red Tiger allows for their customers to set the expected fall out for those jackpots. That is, the casino gets to decide how big the jackpots grow on average before they fall. It's not impossible that they would even be able to decide how big of a percentage is allocated to the jackpot from the regular game RTP.. though, there's a lot of cost associated with re-certifying games so i can't imagine any provider would be willing to do this except to the biggest casinos, if any.

Not sure if anyone here has tried but if you go to a not so popular slot with a local progressive jackpot, it's quite possible you're the only one playing that game at that moment. So when you play you see the jackpot tick up just the right amount compared to your bet. I've tried a couple of times just because i have a suspicious mind

You should always be able to find in game rules what portion of the RTP is devoted to the Jackpot. I'm pretty sure it's a regulatory requirement.

 

[CompleteFailure]

So all our worst fears have been confirmed then, and there was no need for our Tin Foil hats.

All this time we actually have been getting fucked (Sometimes) by Casinos manipulating the RTP and it was all hush hush and "They can't do that, they make enough off the 96% RTP".

As if having an 96% RTP isn't enough for the Casino to make a decent profit, they all also have the choice to lower RTP to increase profits. Greedy scandalous Cunts!

Every single operator will deny having tweaked the RTP too. And there is no way to prove it otherwise. We as players just have to take it up the bum from them and believe what they tell you.

If you're (Not you personally Dunover) not as outraged at this as I am, then you need a kick up the hole.

Sad thing is, not one of us can do a single thing about it.

Best case scenario now is complete RTP transparency from operators and developers alike.

Time to hang up the boots I think!

EDIT: I wonder if the client platform comes with a bonus Enable/Disable option Hmmmmmmmm

Tin foilers have been consistently correct in this industry since the early days of online poker.

 

[deepsky2]

I think it's disgusting that any provider would supply there games at different RTPs. I want the best playing experience and you would think the game provider would want that as well for there players as if it's poor RTP were just going to stop playing and play other games with higher RTP. The RTP should be the same across the board, game providers and the casinos seem to feed each other's pockets while kicking us to the curb. Casinos like Videoslots purposely choosing the lower RTP is disgusting as well, period!! should not be allowed.

 

[trancemonkey]

Bang on matey and not a foil hat in sight either.

I play the same games at the same casinos at the same stakes and you can actually 'feel' the difference.

Ain't getting into naming any but one place feels like soon as I 'Walk in the door' its "Hi Jon, giz ya dosh, bye Jon"

The whole set up has changed and not for the better as I say the sessions just don't feel the same. Doesn't even feel like gambling in general where the player and the house gets a chance....

Take a scenario of walking into the same pub every night for a month, heading for the same fruit machine each time and a fresh £20 worth of £1 coins each time.

The term "gambling" in general would suggest, regardless of previous play, regardless of RTP, regardless whether you trod in shit on the way into the pub that some of those night that month you'd lose, others you'd walk out a winner.

This term it seems no longer covers online play. I err on the side If I HAD to 'guess' an explanation that previous play, luck, withdrawals are remembered to a degree and these 'Memory less' slots are no so dumb after all

Oh Jono... you were doing so well.

No tin foil hat needed where different RTPs are concerned. I believe Malta requires a minimum of 94%...

However, your last bit requires a new roll of tin foil for a bigger better hat. Just when I thought you had finally seen the light...

 

[trancemonkey]

Tin foilers have been consistently correct in this industry since the early days of online poker.

RTP variants is hardly tin foil territory.. it's a well known fact. Hence you should always check the help files

 

[Matti]

Oh Jono... you were doing so well.

No tin foil hat needed where different RTPs are concerned. I believe Malta requires a minimum of 94%...

However, your last bit requires a new roll of tin foil for a bigger better hat. Just when I thought you had finally seen the light...

Jono made that post almost 3 years ago

 

[trancemonkey]

Jono made that post almost 3 years ago

I really should check the dates first...
Sorry @Jono777

 

[CompleteFailure]

RTP variants is hardly tin foil territory.. it's a well known fact. Hence you should always check the help files

Wrong. It was not a well-known fact by regular gamblers. Maybe it was well-known by casinos and others in the industry who were trying to hide the ball.
But many players speculated that certain casinos offered dramatically inferior versions of popular slots (ie. RTPs twice as bad or worse). Other assured these tinfoil hatters that it was impossible. Now it's "well known."

Is it now tinfoil hatter to speculate the following.
1) A casino can simultaneously have access to multiple versions of a slot.
2) It can assign a particular version to a particular player or for a particular promotion.
3) Does not always display the correct RTP in the help file for the version being played.

Like I said, tinfoil hatters have been vindicated in pretty much everything from hole-cards being visible in poker, collusion at the tables, ponzi scheme casinos, card games like blackjack being bogus, front-running in sports betting, variable RTPs.

 

[lotusch]

I really should check the dates first...
Sorry @Jono777

Well you just put a new life spark into this thread!

 

[brianmon]

RTP variants is hardly tin foil territory.. it's a well known fact. Hence you should always check the help files

You should always check the helpfiles, NOW.
Now that it's mandatory for UK licensed casinos to include the RTP in the helpfile. But for how many years was this information not shown?
How many average/casual players, who've been playing for years, know that the information is NOW there in the helpfile?
What about the rest of the world, where it isn't mandatory to show the RTP in the helpfile?

 

[CompleteFailure]

You should always check the helpfiles, NOW.
Now that it's mandatory for UK licensed casinos to include the RTP in the helpfile. But for how many years was this information not shown?
How many average/casual players, who've been playing for years, know that the information is NOW there in the helpfile?
What about the rest of the world, where it isn't mandatory to show the RTP in the helpfile?

Even this is not enough. An average player does not know about RTP although that doesn't mean that the RTP is not important to the average player! They know the slot based on their experience, their friends' recommendation, affiliate reviews etc. They have an idea based on all of this about how good the slot is. When a provider dramatically reduces the quality, by doing something like setting the RTP to TWICE as bad or more, that slot is no longer the same slot. It may have the same name, features, theme, colors, and sounds but it's been fundamentally altered.

It is nothing but bait and switch. The casino should rename that slot (eg. "Book of the Dead Crap Version") or put a clear disclaimer at the start of the play (eg. "This slot is not the Book of the Dead that you have heard about. It looks the same but the math model is radically different. Expect to lose TWICE as much money").

 

[trancemonkey]

Even this is not enough. An average player does not know about RTP although that doesn't mean that the RTP is not important to the average player! They know the slot based on their experience, their friends' recommendation, affiliate reviews etc. They have an idea based on all of this about how good the slot is. When a provider dramatically reduces the quality, by doing something like setting the RTP to TWICE as bad or more, that slot is no longer the same slot. It may have the same name, features, theme, colors, and sounds but it's been fundamentally altered.

It is nothing but bait and switch. The casino should rename that slot (eg. "Book of the Dead Crap Version") or put a clear disclaimer at the start of the play (eg. "This slot is not the Book of the Dead that you have heard about. It looks the same but the math model is radically different. Expect to lose TWICE as much money").

RTP's have had to be displayed for games in the UK since the 2005 Gambling Act - whether they all did or not, i can't comment.
And with regards to the issue about RTP being different - i understand your frustration, but it's simply not viable to suggest that games should only ever have one RTP. And be careful what you wish for, because if you think that forcing providers to only producer one RTP variant would mean you would only have 96 or 97 percent versions, you are living in a fantasy world.

I can almost guarantee that you would see all games on around 94% if this happens.

And also, as it's a free world, if you don't like the way a slot plays at one casino, go to another one. Simple right?

 

[LordSilver]

Even this is not enough. An average player does not know about RTP although that doesn't mean that the RTP is not important to the average player! They know the slot based on their experience, their friends' recommendation, affiliate reviews etc. They have an idea based on all of this about how good the slot is. When a provider dramatically reduces the quality, by doing something like setting the RTP to TWICE as bad or more, that slot is no longer the same slot. It may have the same name, features, theme, colors, and sounds but it's been fundamentally altered.

It is nothing but bait and switch. The casino should rename that slot (eg. "Book of the Dead Crap Version") or put a clear disclaimer at the start of the play (eg. "This slot is not the Book of the Dead that you have heard about. It looks the same but the math model is radically different. Expect to lose TWICE as much money").

As long as the information is there for the player to be found (in the help file) then that is fair enough in my eyes. As a player it's up to you to seek information if you want to/feel you need that. It's like betting on a football game, some do lot of research before, while other's place a bet cause they like the name of the team. If a team is resting their best players in said game, then it's the players fault if they were not aware of it (or they don't care).

 

[goatwack]

It's basic lip-service 101, have the HELP files in games but enshrouded in a wall of text that no mere mortal would ever 'normally' stumble upon.

As mentioned, rookie players WILL just open a game based on the theme's appeal and all its associated bells and whistles, not dig out the monocle and scour the finer points of a game's workings.

And mentioning free market and autonomy on how to price their wares is one thing, but one need only look at how cigarettes were dismantled over time, not to mention having the product's nicotine & tar content, coupled with pictures adorning packets of people with scurvy and the like. One could say it over-informed potential buyers

So I don't see why the gambling industry continues to get a free pass under 'Well it's all there, you just have to look for it, thicko' when it's not what I'd classify as completely non-harmful vice. But of course we know why they won't bring RTP figures to the fore-

- because disclosing how low-paying their slots are, even 'good version' vs 'bad version' of same slot, would mean customers scarpering quicker than you can say 'Return to Player'

 

[CompleteFailure]

RTP's have had to be displayed for games in the UK since the 2005 Gambling Act - whether they all did or not, i can't comment.
And with regards to the issue about RTP being different - i understand your frustration, but it's simply not viable to suggest that games should only ever have one RTP. And be careful what you wish for, because if you think that forcing providers to only producer one RTP variant would mean you would only have 96 or 97 percent versions, you are living in a fantasy world.

I can almost guarantee that you would see all games on around 94% if this happens.

And also, as it's a free world, if you don't like the way a slot plays at one casino, go to another one. Simple right?

It's absolutely viable for providers to rename slots which different RTPs (eg. Book of the Dead Crap Version, Book of the Dead Standard, Book of the Dead Super Version). Is this beyond your imagination?

LOL, the player has already deposited and played with his money. He was given an inferior product packaged as the standard one that he expected. The casino has tricked him. It's too late.

Face it, it's unethical and you don't care. Just say it.

 

[trancemonkey]

It's absolutely viable for providers to rename slots which different RTPs (eg. Book of the Dead Crap Version, Book of the Dead Standard, Book of the Dead Super Version). Is this beyond your imagination?

LOL, the player has already deposited and played with his money. He was given an inferior product packaged as the standard one that he expected. The casino has tricked him. It's too late.

Face it, it's unethical and you don't care. Just say it.

Haha... it's not unethical. And what would you suggest if a provider offers 10 different RTPs?

The information on what the RTP is is there for players to find... should it be easier to find? I'm sure I would agree that it should be...

But saying you should change the name is just laughable... I'm all for openness and fairness, but your suggestion would arguably cause even more confusion.

As I said, I would prefer the RTP being displayed on the loading screen.

 

[CompleteFailure]

As long as the information is there for the player to be found (in the help file) then that is fair enough in my eyes. As a player it's up to you to seek information if you want to/feel you need that. It's like betting on a football game, some do lot of research before, while other's place a bet cause they like the name of the team. If a team is resting their best players in said game, then it's the players fault if they were not aware of it (or they don't care).

The player has looked for information, they've played before, they've asked friends, and they've visited affiliate sites who they consider to be experts. Virtually no affiliate site will say anything about variable RTPs when reviewing a slot. Virtually none even know about this. The provider and the casino make it hard to find this information(things have only recently being finally coming to light to people on this form where people are way more informed than the average player). The bait is switch is deftly performed by making everything about the game seem the same except one of the most important elements of the game.

Not like a football game. Nobody is under the illusion that one match is the same as another.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Haha... it's not unethical. And what would you suggest if a provider offers 10 different RTPs?

The information on what the RTP is is there for players to find... should it be easier to find? I'm sure I would agree that it should be...

But saying you should change the name is just laughable... I'm all for openness and fairness, but your suggestion would arguably cause even more confusion.

As I said, I would prefer the RTP being displayed on the loading screen.

What do you think should be done for 10 different RTPs? Either different names (eg. BoTD_96%, BoTD_95%, etc.) or disclaimers for each one explaining in laymen's terms the difference (eg. "this RTP will lead to expected losses twice/three times that of the normal game.")
Wow that was so tough. You are really lacking in creativity or a complete hack.
If you mean that it's laughable, because casinos will never act ethically and regulators have no interest in making them do so, then you might have a point. Otherwise you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[trancemonkey]

What do you think should be done for 10 different RTPs? Either different names (eg. BoTD_96%, BoTD_95%, etc.) or disclaimers for each one explaining in laymen's terms the difference (eg. "this RTP will lead to expected losses twice/three times that of the normal game.")
Wow that was so tough. You are really lacking in creativity or a complete hack.
If you mean that it's laughable, because casinos will never act ethically and regulators have no interest in making them do so, then you might have a point. Otherwise you're embarrassing yourself.

You're right, I don't know anything. I'll leave you to it. You clearly know far more about this whole thing than I ever will

 

[CompleteFailure]

You're right, I don't know anything. I'll leave you to it. You clearly know far more about this whole thing than I ever will

Clearly you have knowledge about slot-making and clearly you have none about business ethics.

 

[trancemonkey]

Clearly you have knowledge about slot-making and clearly you have none about business ethics.

I have both, but you only see it from one side (understandably) whereas I see it from both. I know the impact too much information can have on people (it can make it worse btw) but I also understand that the more open and fair we are, the better.

Which is why I've repeatedly said I believe that RTP should be clearly shown on the loading screen like it has to be on FOBT games in the UK.