Omni Casino Complaint: Hot Seat promotion issue

[Kezman]

I understood "play over this amount/day and at the end of the mont you will get 500€" as a post wager bonus winnings? But that sayed. I have been playing only few years, so I quess others (as you) might have a upper hand to me, when it comes to experience and undestanding promotions.. That is simply how I would understand the promotion.

Yes, that is the gist of the particular promotion.

 

[Casinomeister]

Please submit a PAB via here:
Link Outdated / Removed

Thank you.

 

[vinylweatherman]

which removes the entire spirit of this extra promotion to our members

This, as I said, is a "spirit of the promotion" issue.

I take issue with the rest of the detail too. They have widened the meaning of "low risk and or competing wagers" to include NORMAL Blackjack wagers. They admit that you did achieve the correct level of wagering, but they contradict the claim that you played past this requirement by saying you exited the casino once you had completed the minimum level.

Clearly, Blackjack IS allowed, and their case is that you met the terms "exactly", so they use what is in effect an "F U Clause" which is "Management reserves the right to refuse Hot Seat points for any reason it determines". A player cannot knowingly break such a term, nor can they fight it's application. It's a "we can choose whether or not to honour the promotion".

This promo was designed to offer a little extra to members, but YOU are a member too. It seems that they set one target in the terms, but expect players to achieve another unwritten target. It is similar to the secret Rival rule that players are expected to exceed the stated WR by at least 30% in order to be considered fully compliant with the "spirit of the bonus".

Since the other members seem not to play Blackjack, why not just exclude it along with Video Poker, making it clear to participants that such play will not qualify for any hot seat points.

Would they have done the same had you played exactly the required amount on the best slot each day?

 

[OC Elliott]

Hi Kezmen,

As a Casinomeister member you have a free dispute service allowing you to address your grievance in a manner befitting someone who has a genuine complaint.

We are very sorry that you are not satisfied with the decision made and again ask you to spend a few minutes submitting a Link Outdated / Removed as pointed out in our reply as well as the forum host.

As you’re aware, we cannot detail our October 9th letter to you that explained in detail our determination and decision. This would breach our privacy responsibility to you. You have posted just a portion of that letter as you state the rest was “vague.” Therefore, we urge you to submit a Link Outdated / Removed.

Yours Sincerely,

OC Elliott

 

[OC Elliott]

Hi All,

Based on this thread, I would like to take a few minutes and explain to fellow Casinomeister members exactly what the Hot Seat promotion is.

I know many of you already know and probably have been awarded the Hot Seat at Omni Casino, but for those that are wondering what this promotion is, please allow me to give you some information.

The Hot Seat is an exclusive Omni Casino promotion that started a little over two years ago.

The Hot Seat is a promotion which rewards Omni members for their loyal play at the casino over and above, our cash loyalty rewards program (Club O), weekly specials, deposit promotions, direct comps, dinner nights out, our tournaments and other special events.

It is just another way to thank our loyal casino members by crediting them with free cash with no wagering restrictions attached.

In two years of operating this beloved promotion, there have been two cases in which we reduced or voided Hot Seat points as it related to Blackjack. This case here (reduced) and another case (reduced).

While we have an unhappy member (that is very disappointing for us), the thousands of Hot Seat reward recipients could tell you that we do not make up things as we go along.

Omni Casino has been in business for 15 years and we did not get to this point by running “bait and switch” promotions. We are disappointed that our member is not satisfied with our decision. However, the casino has the right to enforce terms and conditions and will do so when warranted.

Warm Regards,

OC Elliott.

 

[Nifty29]

This, as I said, is a "spirit of the promotion" issue.

I take issue with the rest of the detail too. They have widened the meaning of "low risk and or competing wagers" to include NORMAL Blackjack wagers. They admit that you did achieve the correct level of wagering, but they contradict the claim that you played past this requirement by saying you exited the casino once you had completed the minimum level.

Clearly, Blackjack IS allowed, and their case is that you met the terms "exactly", so they use what is in effect an "F U Clause" which is "Management reserves the right to refuse Hot Seat points for any reason it determines". A player cannot knowingly break such a term, nor can they fight it's application. It's a "we can choose whether or not to honour the promotion".

This promo was designed to offer a little extra to members, but YOU are a member too. It seems that they set one target in the terms, but expect players to achieve another unwritten target. It is similar to the secret Rival rule that players are expected to exceed the stated WR by at least 30% in order to be considered fully compliant with the "spirit of the bonus".

Since the other members seem not to play Blackjack, why not just exclude it along with Video Poker, making it clear to participants that such play will not qualify for any hot seat points.

Would they have done the same had you played exactly the required amount on the best slot each day?

Sorry Vinyl, but you don't have a clue here.

As usual, you're making this operator look like some kind of "predator" waiting to pounce on unsuspecting players.

The case has NO relation to the Rival unwritten rule....to say otherwise is ridiculous and clutching at straws to further an already lost argument IMO. Why? The rule is WRITTEN for a start

Did you miss the part where Elliot stated that TWO....yes TWO...players in TWO YEARS have had their hotseat points REDUCED...not removed....based on the stipulated terms. The casino was within it's rights to do this...and guess what....the player AGREED because they participated in the promotion. If they didn't like the fact that the casino COULD remove or reduce their points, they should NOT have played.

It comes back to reading terms of promotions. If you READ them (and most complainants haven't which is why they have problems), and you see a term you don't LIKE, then DON'T play. It is not difficult. Nobody is forcing anyone to take part.

The OP played BJ. OK, it was not excluded. Fine. He says he "played double the requirement on one occasion"....so let's assume he played the absolute minimum all the other days (or close to it). I assume from the information provided in the thread that he was flat betting on BJ to reach the minimum requirement, and probably only wagered extra if he was on a winning streak.

Do you think it is fair for someone to login each day, play an exact number of BJ hands at flat stakes, and logout until the next day, and get the exact same reward as other regular/loyal players? I don't, and neither does the casino.....HENCE the terms.

It is obviously not about people playing BJ. I would be extremely surprised if he was the only BJ player involved in the promotion, so why don't we have a raft of other players complaining about points reduction? Surely if the whole idea of Omni was to "bait and switch", then why only do it to ONE player. It would be the worst ever bait and switch con that any business ever ran

As for the OP "not being able to knowingly break the term".....what would YOU expect if you chose to play this promo, and use only one low HE game, flat bet, and only wager the minimum required? If I were the OP with that plan in mind, and read those terms, I would be thinking "hmmm....I'm pretty sure they are talking about...oh I don't know....players who login once a day, play a low HE game, flat bet, and wager the minimum, and logout....I better either a) reconsider my plan, or b) contact the casino and ASK if this is allowed"

Bottom line...the term is there, and the casino invoked it...for the SECOND time in TWO YEARS.

Upon reading the terms, the OP had three choices:

1. Contact the casino to ask if their "plan" would be OK to execute

2. Don't play

3. Go ahead and play anyway, and hope there is no problem at the end, and if there is, make a big stink about it and try and blackmail them into paying.

We all know what the OP chose.

Submit the PAB as invited by the rep Kezman ( I must compliment you on your English too, given your location...)

And now for the "yes, but....."

 

[just play]

I have been here for years and years and still don't understand "recreational" player to "advantage" player?

How can one have an advantage while gambling in a casino? I don't understand.

Could you explain so a naive person like me can understand? Especially the part..."advantage play may be exempt from this promotion".

I have an additional question to ask...why would the original poster PAB? I don't understand to logic to this, Bryan himself had said in not so many words that he thinks the player is in the wrong...(Bryan I'm certainly not putting words in your mouth, but that's how it sounds to me.) you said...

So you are saying that they have no reason to believe that you are nothing but a recreational player. Is that right?

So why would the OP even PAB? I mean why bother?

I'm not being an ass, I honestly don't understand what good a PAB would do?

 

[Nifty29]

I have an additional question to ask...why would the original poster PAB? I don't understand to logic to this, Bryan himself had said in not so many words that he thinks the player is in the wrong...(Bryan I'm certainly not putting words in your mouth, but that's how it sounds to me.) you said...

So why would the OP even PAB? I mean why bother?

I'm not being an ass, I honestly don't understand what good a PAB would do?

Well, the player is not happy with decision from the casino, and believes they broke no terms. Seems like a classic case for a PAB.

I'm not sure Bryan was pre-judging, but rather asking pertinent questions. He has invited the OP to PAB and they have thus far declined, and decided to throw accusations around instead.

One thing about the PAB process is that ALL information is provided, and not just what complainants want us to know.

 

[just play]

Thanks for the quick reply. I have never done a PAB, so I have no idea what questions are asked or what they look at, etc.

Going from memory, the OP or the casino (I forget who) said he would play BJ just until the requirements were met right? But isn't that what you are supposed to do when you take a bonus? I only play slots, if I take a bonus and make playthrough, depending on the amount of money I have left I will cashout (probably reverse at some point, lol). Am I not supposed to do that? OMG I have so many questions, I sound like an idiot. What about the 32red and 3dice monthly like I think Vinyl said? Some people play 10cent bets to get to the top and don't really bet "in the spirit", why is that different? I think the same person wins the 3dice monthly every month. I can't play at 32red so I don't even look at that one.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks for the quick reply. I have never done a PAB, so I have no idea what questions are asked or what they look at, etc.

Going from memory, the OP or the casino (I forget who) said he would play BJ just until the requirements were met right? But isn't that what you are supposed to do when you take a bonus? I only play slots, if I take a bonus and make playthrough, depending on the amount of money I have left I will cashout (probably reverse at some point, lol). Am I not supposed to do that? OMG I have so many questions, I sound like an idiot. What about the 32red and 3dice monthly like I think Vinyl said? Some people play 10cent bets to get to the top and don't really bet "in the spirit", why is that different? I think the same person wins the 3dice monthly every month. I can't play at 32red so I don't even look at that one.

What's wrong with that? The target is set, and if met, the reward is expected. It doesn't matter how many or how few players meet the target and have the reward not met, even one is one too many. If the casino wanted Blackjack players to play twice the amount expected of slots players, this should have been stated in the promo.

Video Poker has been excluded outright, even for those "recreational players" the casino considers loyal and deserving enough. This is despite this being the "second best" game of choice for the advantage player, yet the very best game of all, Blackjack, is allowed.

It seems that the policy is that players who just meet the stated target are going to have their points reduced.

If the casino wants to pick and choose which players get the cashback based on an impression of the spirit in which they met a target playthrough, just have a discresionary "manager's bonus" system, not a defined target that leads to an expectation. Managers could target the rewards towards the players who played in a less calculating manner, and with no defined target, players left out would not have much to base an argument on.

It seems casinos have an absolute right to "play to win", yet players who "play to win" are viewed as some sort of "scum".

The whole point of gambling is to win, even though the chances are that we won't.

 

[just play]

What's wrong with that? The target is set, and if met, the reward is expected. It doesn't matter how many or how few players meet the target and have the reward not met, even one is one too many. If the casino wanted Blackjack players to play twice the amount expected of slots players, this should have been stated in the promo

That was my point Vinyl.


My next line was....

But isn't that what you are supposed to do when you take a bonus?

 

[Casinomeister]

RE the PAB: When a player PABs, the player agrees to allow the casino to share info with us (email, chat logs, etc.,). Most casinos/businesses need written permission from a client to share such information with a third party. That's what the PAB service does.

In a case like this, it would behoove the player to do so - especially when he has accused Omni of rogue behavior. I'm still waiting for this guy to step up to the plate and submit his complaint. The tock is ticking away.

It seems casinos have an absolute right to "play to win", yet players who "play to win" are viewed as some sort of "scum".

This is not the case here. I wish you wouldn't make comments like this that imply that Omni casino views their winners like scum. Omni has been listed on this site for over a decade and we rarely have issues with them. It would be a safe presumption that many members of this forum have "won" at this casino and are happy with the service and treatment they get there.

 

[vinylweatherman]

RE the PAB: When a player PABs, the player agrees to allow the casino to share info with us (email, chat logs, etc.,). Most casinos/businesses need written permission from a client to share such information with a third party. That's what the PAB service does.

In a case like this, it would behoove the player to do so - especially when he has accused Omni of rogue behavior. I'm still waiting for this guy to step up to the plate and submit his complaint. The tock is ticking away.


This is not the case here. I wish you wouldn't make comments like this that imply that Omni casino views their winners like scum. Omni has been listed on this site for over a decade and we rarely have issues with them. It would be a safe presumption that many members of this forum have "won" at this casino and are happy with the service and treatment they get there.

Nevertheless, merely playing what is required to the letter of the terms should NOT be getting punished by an accredited casino. If they wanted more play on certain games, they should have reflected this in the terms for the promo. Red Flush take this approach in their "Survivor" series, where wagering on the better games is weighted such that whilst $100 wagered on slots gets 1 leaderboard point, it can take up to $5000 wagered on the "best" games to get that one point. Omni could have weighted contributions in this manner.

The "scum" remark is not solely directed at Omni, but a general view of how casinos treat players who win through discipline and a tight playing style, as opposed to those who play loose, and just happen to hit something big once in a while. Omni could easily have excluded players from this promo if their play the time before was not liked. Many casinos take this measure, and it rarely seems to be an issue except those who view bonuses as an absolute entitlement throughout their entire membership of a casino.

Unlike the "red+black" on Roulette, and the "player and banker" bet on Bacarrat, there is no way Blackjack can be manipulated in order to hold it to exact RTP and near zero variance, which is what is generally understood to me meant by the term being used to void the hotseat points.

Betting between 20 and 100 per hand at Blackjack is hardly "low risk" given that one can easily swing 100 units or more either side of the trend in a session. They even used "spirit of..." in their explanation to the player. If this were a rogue casino, we would be all over them for this kind of thing, and be demanding that unless a SPECIFIC term had been broken, they should not be using the "at management's absolute discresion" approach to renege on an offer.

Omni made the rules, and decided Blackjack would count, they should not be shocked therefore when a Blackjack player leaps at this promotion.

Even though we have now been told that only an excerpt of the explanation has been shown, I still cannot work out how the game of Blackjack can be manipulated so as to create a "low risk wager" situation like player and banker bets on Baccarat.

If someone can demonstrate how this can be done with the Omni variant, I may change my views. I know it CANNOT be done with the Microgaming version, and the ONLY software I know of where this might be possible was "be the dealer" casino.

I am "anti" because this is EXACTLY how I have played many of the leaderboard wager challenges in the past, and even some of the Ladbrokes promotions. I did not expect major issues with this, and I didn't get any.

If I played the same challenge promos at Omni, and used my usual style, I could easily be facing the same situation as the OP. I won't though, having read this thread I am NOT going to play such promotions at Omni, and probably won't be tempted to join either for fear that other aspects of my usual style might create problems.

 

[Casinomeister]

The thing is, you are running with a topic that you've only been given piecemeal information on. You don't know what transpired between this player and the casino because he never PABd - he only posted a couple of comments from an email. You are being unfair judging the casino in light of a member cherrypicking information. This is why I have insisted that this player PAB. Only then will we be able to look at both sides of the coin - that is the fair thing to do, isn't it?

As far as I can tell, the player is reluctant to do this. We haven't received any indication that he is willing to submit a PAB.

 

[Nifty29]

Hey vinyl

A simple "I didn't mean to infer that only omni treats players like scum" would have meant a lot more than a zillion words that basically say the same thing and/or repeat the same stories you've already told in this thread and others.

You obviously DO stand by your initial remark, given that you didn't apologize or withdraw it. E.g "...not SOLELY directed at Omni...". Poor form IMO.

Why you feel the need to consistently dump on reputable and accredited casinos on the basis of one player's beef I have no idea. Where has the old logical and reasonable VWM gone?

At the risk of also rehashing the same stuff......did you miss the bit about omni only TWICE having to reduce points in TWO YEARS? You conveniently ignore that fact, probably because it completely contradicts your statement that omni treats players as "scum". You also forget the old adage..."one swallow does not a summer make".

 

[vinylweatherman]

The thing is, you are running with a topic that you've only been given piecemeal information on. You don't know what transpired between this player and the casino because he never PABd - he only posted a couple of comments from an email. You are being unfair judging the casino in light of a member cherrypicking information. This is why I have insisted that this player PAB. Only then will we be able to look at both sides of the coin - that is the fair thing to do, isn't it?

As far as I can tell, the player is reluctant to do this. We haven't received any indication that he is willing to submit a PAB.

If there was something more sinsiter, surely Omni would have locked the OPs account. This is normal practice when there are suspicions about the validity of a player's ID, gaming, or suspicions of collusion.

I rather suspect this has something to do with the OP's "behaviour at other casinos", which unless related to fraud, should not be relevant at an independent casino.

Maybe the OP feels they don't have a fair chance of fighting this decision, and it is only 105 credits.

In any case, can't Omni force the issue in the absence of a player PAB by launching a Casino vs Player PAB, as it seems they want this case to be reviewed.

I have personal experience of BS from casinos, even a couple of accredited ones. I have gone to eCogra on one occasion (a PAB wasn't necessary as eCogra sorted the matter out and gave the casino a rap over the knuckles). Prime casino tried to pull a stunt on me, but made the mistake of trying to blame eGap requirements, not realising I had actually read it and managed to call their bluff.


I see Nifty supports the view that if a term is there, it can be applied, and the player shouldn't complain. However, Nifty had a gripe over Club World taking longer to pay out than normal, yet they DID have their ass covered in the more vague terms and conditions, where the timescales are presented as an estimate, not an absolute obligation. This was one of the rare occasions we both held similar views on something.

All I see is a clever player who spotted an opportunity to beat the house by complying EXACTLY to the terms of a promotion, and being disciplined enough to avoid the usual temptations that are presented when logged in to a casino lobby. The terms were not broken, they were just complied with EXACTLY to requirements, not a cent more. Maybe only two players were that disciplined, but without any fraud, gnoming, game rigging, etc, I can't see the reason for this decision, and as such, I can't be confident that reading and understanding the terms is enough to keep me out of trouble.

 

[just play]

Thanks for the quick reply. I have never done a PAB, so I have no idea what questions are asked or what they look at, etc.

Going from memory, the OP or the casino (I forget who) said he would play BJ just until the requirements were met right? But isn't that what you are supposed to do when you take a bonus? I only play slots, if I take a bonus and make playthrough, depending on the amount of money I have left I will cashout (probably reverse at some point, lol). Am I not supposed to do that? OMG I have so many questions, I sound like an idiot. What about the 32red and 3dice monthly like I think Vinyl said? Some people play 10cent bets to get to the top and don't really bet "in the spirit", why is that different? I think the same person wins the 3dice monthly every month. I can't play at 32red so I don't even look at that one.

How come my questions keep getting ignored? I think they are good questions. Maybe they are not, what do I know, lol

1. Difference between recreational player and advantage player? (I could let this question go, maybe because it would be idiotic to post such information)

2. When you take any kind of bonus/promotion, isn't the player trying to meet the wagering requirements? When met, some people stop, some people play. Who cares if a player stops after reaching ther requirement of said bonus by one penny, (as long as there is no rule against that) they met it and are allowed to cashout correct? (OP didn't cashout, but stopped after he met requirement)

3. 32red and 3dice monthly...As I said the same person wins 3dice every month (I have no idea about 32red), is that not playing in the spirit of the bonus/promotion?



Pertaining to the OP, I think there may be more to the story and CM maybe already knows?

 

[Nifty29]

I see Nifty supports the view that if a term is there, it can be applied, and the player shouldn't complain. However, Nifty had a gripe over Club World taking longer to pay out than normal, yet they DID have their ass covered in the more vague terms and conditions, where the timescales are presented as an estimate, not an absolute obligation. This was one of the rare occasions we both held similar views on something.

Ummm....what

The above situation is so incredibly irrelevant I scarcely know where to begin.

At the risk of derailing even further I'll just ask these questions:

Can you show me the clause in the terms and conditions at CWC that expressly states that withdrawals will be paid within a specific timeframe?

Can you show me where they "Have their arse covered"?

I can't believe you brought up that Prime thing again....sheesh.

Your arguments are becoming more and more illogical. Sad really.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Ummm....what

The above situation is so incredibly irrelevant I scarcely know where to begin.

At the risk of derailing even further I'll just ask these questions:

Can you show me the clause in the terms and conditions at CWC that expressly states that withdrawals will be paid within a specific timeframe?

Can you show me where they "Have their arse covered"?

I can't believe you brought up that Prime thing again....sheesh.

Your arguments are becoming more and more illogical. Sad really.

I have given up with logic, the terms might as well not be there as ALL casinos have terms that allow them to disregard everything else "at the casino managers discresion". There is no negotiation either, you just have to hope that the manager will use their discresion in a just manner.

Much of the stuff that is defended as OK for online casinos would not be allowed in any other type of retail business, mainly because other types of business have not rendered themselves almost untouchable in terms of regulation in the customer's home country.

To argue that it is OK to use "spirit of" managers' discresion in a case on the grounds it has only happened once or twice before opens the way for the argument to be applied even more widely, and this is something I have seen in the industry. This is the FIRST time I have seen regular Blackjack play described as "low risk wagers" in the same manner that covering all the numbers on the roulette table is called "low risk betting". I have already seen the rise of slots bonuses where you can't even be safe just sticking to slots, yet casinos have been allowed to get away with arguing that players should not trust that slots means slots, and should have checked through the slots to see which were granted honorary non slot status for that particular promotion.

A line needs to be drawn in the sand, and casinos prevented from sneaking over it by stealth.

In a land casino, the worst they could do would be to ban you, they would not be able to void anything already won unless it was a clear case of fraud, and even then it would have to be done through proper channels.

If this is really a fraud case, where's the locked account and full confiscation?

 

[Simmo!]

Omni made the rules, and decided Blackjack would count...

Safe to say now that that's another door closed. Threads like this make it easy to see why bonus WR's are so tight these days.

 

[Casinomeister]

I have given up with logic, the terms might as well not be there as ALL casinos have terms that allow them to disregard everything else "at the casino managers discresion". There is no negotiation either, you just have to hope that the manager will use their discresion in a just manner...

If this is really a fraud case, where's the locked account and full confiscation?

Please don't make assumptions here. It has already been mentioned that there is more to this issue than what the initially posted. You as an old timer should be able to sense that. The casino is willing to disclose all of the emails between the player and managers (read - negotiations) when the player PABs. Alas - this guy seems to be jerking everyone's chain since he hasn't moved on this.

There was no confiscation of winnings because these are loyalty points.

 

[Casinomeister]

Admin note: thread title changed to something more appropriate. This doesn't seem to be a "bait and switch" issue - it's a complaint about their loyalty program.

@just play
There are several definitions on advantage player vs recreational player. Simply put - an advantage player plays strictly for profit, a recreational player plays to be entertained. Most players are a little bit of both, yet you will have extremes; you have your "bonus beaters" and your "slot junkies".

 

[just play]

Admin note: thread title changed to something more appropriate. This doesn't seem to be a "bait and switch" issue - it's a complaint about their loyalty program.

@just play
There are several definitions on advantage player vs recreational player. Simply put - an advantage player plays strictly for profit, a recreational player plays to be entertained. Most players are a little bit of both, yet you will have extremes; you have your "bonus beaters" and your "slot junkies".

Oh come on, I've been waiting all day for my "tough" questions to be answered.

Since I only play slots (sometimes VP) and like to be entertained and win, I am both. But believe it or not, I get more mad when my money is gone in 15 minutes than when I lose.

I thought of another question, lmao...who cares if someone is considered an advantage player? If the casino is random, how could one be an advantage player? What am I missing?



By the way...where is the OP? Is he MIA?

 

[KasinoKing]

It comes back to reading terms of promotions. If you READ them (and most complainants haven't which is why they have problems), and you see a term you don't LIKE, then DON'T play. It is not difficult. Nobody is forcing anyone to take part.

I couldn't agree more...

KK

 

[Nifty29]

@vinyl

Did you miss these questions?

Can you show me the clause in the terms and conditions at CWC that expressly states that withdrawals will be paid within a specific timeframe?

Can you show me where they "Have their arse covered"?