Nightmare screenshots

[caruso]

Did it happen JUST as you knew it would?

Were you down to your last bucks and on the verge of cashing out when fate (read: "software") intervened?

Was it 5/6, 4/7, 3/8 or 2/9 before the "random" face card landed?

Do you feel like the world's biggest sucker?

Post here!

----------

I offer the following example of Viper blackjack at its best. Note that my entire $280 balance was on the table when lightening (read: "software") struck. Observe the sheer balletic beauty of the dealer draw-out. Dame Margot Fontaine was never more graceful, more perfect, more stylish, more...magnificent.

Enjoy!

 

[phynqster]

Being some what new to on line black jack, and having seen that you are very experienced. I take it by your screen shot, I should take screen shots of every single hand I am dealt?

 

[bethug]

that make my stomach hurts, sorry for the lost

 

[DeMango]

That was the Italian site and those were Lira?
Try the Hood 3000 system, surely it can't hurt as much!

 

[Simmo!]

I know that feeling and it ain't a good one. Unlucky Caruso.

"Always look on the bright side of life, dun-nuh, dun-nuh, dun-nuh dun-nuh dun-nuh"

 

[caruso]

I take it by your screen shot, I should take screen shots of every single hand I am dealt?

Not at all. When I was dealt the hand which has the biggest difference between split or hit of ALL split hands (88 v. 7), ie. I had no choice but to split, which required a re-deposit, I thought I'd take copies since I figured I was set up for a Viper dealer 21 draw out the moment I stuck my entire balance on the table.

 

[lanidar]

I don't care what anyone says!
That's Bullsh*t!!!
The worst case senario, IMO, was that you should have at least won the first hand and possibly losing or having a draw on the second hand.
BUT, for the dealer to draw 21 is....
unf**kingbelievable!!!
You were ripped off!!!
It's happened to me also...but not to for that much money. My loss is usually only in the $10 range on splits.
I give you credit for the having the balls to make the additional deposit. :notworthy
That hand belonged to you.
Someone tell me that the dealers 21 was not rigged.

 

[HateMG]

Caruso,

I know the feeling. A while ago I posted a message how I splited 7's 4 times with 2 doubles against dealer 7 and dealer got 3 7's at the end. There were 8 7's on the table in all. Microgaming BJ sucks IMO, the splits are just plain rip offs.

 

[GrandMaster]

BUT, for the dealer to draw 21 is....
un[censored]believable!!!

The probability of the dealer getting 21 in this situation is 7.36%, just a tiny bit less than having BJ when showing a 10.

 

[m249a]

Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[lanidar]

The probability of the dealer getting 21 in this situation is 7.36%, just a tiny bit less than having BJ when showing a 10.

But, the dealer was not showing a 10.
He was showing a 7.
Whats the probability of the dealer getting 21 in this situation?

 

[GrandMaster]

But, the dealer was not showing a 10.
He was showing a 7.
Whats the probability of the dealer getting 21 in this situation?

I calculated the correct probability. If the dealer is showing a 7 and the player has a pair of 8's, the probability of the dealer ending up with 21 is 7.36% in a 4 deck, S17 game.

 

[lanidar]

I calculated the correct probability. If the dealer is showing a 7 and the player has a pair of 8's, the probability of the dealer ending up with 21 is 7.36% in a 4 deck, S17 game.

I realize in that he lost $560 on that hand.
In the same situation what would you do?

 

[GrandMaster]

I would swear very loudly, maybe punch the computer.

 

[lanidar]

I would swear very loudly, maybe punch the computer.

What I meant was...
If that hand was dealt to you...what would you do?
First, I wouldn't bet my last $280 not knowing what hand I would be dealt.(NATURALLY)
Second, I wouldn't put another $280 in my account and risk a $560 loss.
Though I realize that spliting is the proper thing to do.

But, with $280 in YOUR account and without an infusion of another $280 YOU couldn't split.
Do YOU not split on the 8/8 an take a shot that YOU won't go over 21?
Or would YOU have made the additional deposit?

TALK ABOUT A CATCH 22
Expired Image

 

[DeMango]

Caruso did the proper thing after the bet was made. There should be no argument. But the proper bet before is to always have enough for doubles and splits.

 

[lanidar]

Caruso did the proper thing after the bet was made. There should be no argument. But the proper bet before is to always have enough for doubles and splits.

Yes he did do the proper thing by splitting.
I TOTALLY agree with you about the proper bet before is to always have enough for doubles and splits.

 

[GrandMaster]

Caruso did the proper thing after the bet was made. There should be no argument. But the proper bet before is to always have enough for doubles and splits.

Actually, he should have doubled down on the first hand for a total loss of $840.

I would never bet my whole bankroll on one hand in BJ because of the splits and doubles, but if I did, I would have deposited more money and split the 8's. The expected returns in betting units are 0.32 (split), -0.41 (hit), -0.51 (stand), so splitting is much better than hitting, and it actually has a positive expectation, even if it did not work in this case. To look at it another way, you expect to make 73% profit on the extra money you bet by splitting. I will take a bet with 73% expected profit any day.

 

[lanidar]

Actually, he should have doubled down on the first hand for a total loss of $840.

:notworthy
Actually, you're correct!

 

[m249a]

I would have split, and doubled too..............then yes I would have punched the computer..................a few times too..........then I would have had a few more beer's, and deposited again, with the false hope of recovering my loses..............cause' hey it CAN'T HAPPEN AGAIN........right???

 

[caruso]

Having enough money in your account is not an issue at MG, Crypto or RTG because they all allow re-deposits, ie. you don't lose the hand if you leave the table.

 

[padanian]

Caruso,

I know the feeling. A while ago I posted a message how I splited 7's 4 times with 2 doubles against dealer 7 and dealer got 3 7's at the end. There were 8 7's on the table in all. Microgaming BJ sucks IMO, the splits are just plain rip offs.

Well, I remember once in Vegas, at the Golden Nugget, I had 77 against a 6 (the bet was $150 and I was winning during a progression). After splitting I got other two 7. The next cards were three 4s and one 3. Doubled al of them.
Final result one 17, one 19 and two 20. Dealer got 21 at the sixth card: land based or online, BJ remains a dangerous game...
But the pitboss was nice: I got a meal for 2 at the coffeshop (and I was alone...). A good investment for 1200 bucks...

 

[sw2003]

Well, I remember once in Vegas, at the Golden Nugget, I had 77 against a 6 (the bet was $150 and I was winning during a progression). After splitting I got other two 7. The next cards were three 4s and one 3. Doubled al of them.
Final result one 17, one 19 and two 20. Dealer got 21 at the sixth card: land based or online, BJ remains a dangerous game...
But the pitboss was nice: I got a meal for 2 at the coffeshop (and I was alone...). A good investment for 1200 bucks...

What did they serve at the coffeeshop for $1200??

 

[bewitch]

But the pitboss was nice: I got a meal for 2 at the coffeshop (and I was alone...). A good investment for 1200 bucks...

LOL~ I like this part....

 

[fortyoz]

Bet it tasted almost as good as my $19,000 dinner for two without alchohol at the Hotel Del Rey in Costa Rica! ( later changed to including free bottle of champagne after my GF ripped into the pitboss is a friend of hers.. and doesn't like me very much ). Don't like champagne, and i'm vegetarian.. so it was pretty much worthless to me, the gf enjoyed it

 

[cipher]

Did it happen JUST as you knew it would?

Were you down to your last bucks and on the verge of cashing out when fate (read: "software") intervened?

Was it 5/6, 4/7, 3/8 or 2/9 before the "random" face card landed?

Do you feel like the world's biggest sucker?

Post here!

----------

I offer the following example of Viper blackjack at its best. Note that my entire $280 balance was on the table when lightening (read: "software") struck. Observe the sheer balletic beauty of the dealer draw-out. Dame Margot Fontaine was never more graceful, more perfect, more stylish, more...magnificent.

Enjoy!

Hi Caruso,

These 8's were sure as hell a lot easier to split than yours. It seems as though these casinos really love wiring the 8's. Have a good one.

 

[dave_r]

As Cipher himself pointed out on Got2bet's website, THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP between the amount a player bets and a player's likelyhood of winning. Anotherwords, most online casinos run crooked bj games.

Old / Expired Link

 

[caruso]

Thanks Cipher, that's what I was actually looking for - people to post their own offerings of the dealer double whammy (or treble in these two case).

 

[cipher]

Thanks Cipher, that's what I was actually looking for - people to post their own offerings of the dealer double whammy (or treble in these two case).

Unfortunately, I did'nt grab screen shots the other days. But I've had this occurr four times now in the last five days, 8's everytime.

 

[cipher]

As Cipher himself pointed out on Got2bet's website, THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP between the amount a player bets and a player's likelyhood of winning. Anotherwords, most online casinos run crooked bj games.

Old / Expired Link

I haven't heard from you for a while Dave_r, but it's good to know that your still out there posting.

 

[jerseyguy11]

that certainly sucks caruso. but dont feel too bad.

I was playing on a casino rewards casino about 3 weeks ago (zodiac casino). I deposited about 2,400 that I had just won from another casino. I built it up to 4k in about 10 minutes playing blackjack betting around 100-200 a hand. My next 4 bets where 1k (500 on 2 hands), 1k (500 on 2 hands) and 2k (1000 on 2 hands). I wish I saved the screenshots but nearly all of the hands I had like 19 or 20, each time the dealer had no lower than 20 which makes me really wonder. Maybe something does trigger when you bet above a certain amount. If you were a online casino owner, wouldnt you put this trigger in just in case?

Anyway 500 sucks but i got screwed out of 4000 on 4 rounds of bj. In the meantime, casinorewards graciously offered me about 80 dollars in comps over 3 weeks. I personally would have appreciated maybe a high roller bonus of $100 to $200 so I probably won't return to them.

 

[dave_r]

If there is a "trigger" for the take down mode, the casino owner wouldn't be able to activate it himself. If software developers allowed individual operators to do this, eventually these operators would eventually rat out the software developer.

So instead, these "triggers" are built into the software.

The software developer can now steal from both players and individual operators at the same time.

The software developer ("turnkey provider") steals from players by rigging the games in such a way that the highest bets lose at a much higher than normal rate. The software knows when a player makes his LARGEST bets and all of a sudden the invincible dealer comes alive.

The software developer steals from his own operators by creating "shill" players that win so much money, it makes up for all the stealing that took place from the real players. So when the individual casino operator looks at his backend (backoffice balance sheet and gaming logs), he too is under the false impression that the games are honest, and while some players are losing big, other players are winning big, and his profits reflect that of an honest game in a land based casino.

Can any of this be proven? The answer is that its very difficult. Standard deviation and chi square can be used, but what if a player happens to win more hands than he's supposed to on his smaller bets, and less hands than he's supposed to when betting 100, 200 or $500 per hand. It looks like a fair game. Noone can prove anything.

 

[dave_r]

Ofcourse there are exceptions when a software developer DOES allow an individual operator to cheat at his own discretion. One such example is listed right here:

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(Thanks to Bryan for pointing this out in his rogue entry for 1cnp)

 

[cipher]

If there is a "trigger" for the take down mode, the casino owner wouldn't be able to activate it himself. If software developers allowed individual operators to do this, eventually these operators would eventually rat out the software developer.

So instead, these "triggers" are built into the software.

The software developer can now steal from both players and individual operators at the same time.

The software developer ("turnkey provider") steals from players by rigging the games in such a way that the highest bets lose at a much higher than normal rate. The software knows when a player makes his LARGEST bets and all of a sudden the invincible dealer comes alive.

The software developer steals from his own operators by creating "shill" players that win so much money, it makes up for all the stealing that took place from the real players. So when the individual casino operator looks at his backend (backoffice balance sheet and gaming logs), he too is under the false impression that the games are honest, and while some players are losing big, other players are winning big, and his profits reflect that of an honest game in a land based casino.

Can any of this be proven? The answer is that its very difficult. Standard deviation and chi square can be used, but what if a player happens to win more hands than he's supposed to on his smaller bets, and less hands than he's supposed to when betting 100, 200 or $500 per hand. It looks like a fair game. Noone can prove anything.

The fact is this, "proof" would only be needed if and when litigation were to be introduced against any of the software providers for cheating. What makes a whole lot more sense than a lawsuit to the gambler is to be able to track and record virtually every aspect of a Blackjack session.

Seven years ago, we wrote the CIPHER program to be able to visually see not only when, but more importantly how a system was being manipulated.

To say the least its uncanny how even a slight change in the player's wagering patterns will in fact result in the "dumping" and "seeding" of lesser valued cards which in turn will spawn some pretty spectacular wins for the house i.e. take down mode.

 

[jpm]

That is astounding Cipher , and quite troubling as well.

 

[jerseyguy11]

all good information thanks. yes, that "winners limit" feels about right at some of the casinos I've played at. Ive been playing so long online that you tend to get a feel for how the different software and ability to win feels while you play.

i still think microgaming blackjack is the fairest, but some microgaming operators feel a little shady too. Its really hard to tell. I truly hope one day all this becomes federally regulated (i.e. atlantic city/las vegas) and believe me it will.

btw im ShadyPlayer22 this is my new screen name because I forgot the pw to my old one lol.

I still say fortune lounge, vegas partners, intercasino group is the fairest/fastest out there. Only place when the dealer hits blackjack or 20 constantly in a streak i believe its just bad luck and not shady tactics. And believe me there have been plenty of times this has happened.

 

[daywalker]

So guys, you're saying these casinos are rigged, especially when you stick your largest bet down?

But yet you continue to play them???

 

[cipher]

So guys, you're saying these casinos are rigged, especially when you stick your largest bet down?

But yet you continue to play them???

Wow, you have some great interpretive skills. I'm saying that Blackjack on the internet can be rigged by the software providers and I've personally recorded a great many sessions wherein the common denominator for such rigging is the seeding and dumping of small valued cards particularly when the wager is increased. Now is that spelled out clearly enough for you?

 

[jerseyguy11]

So guys, you're saying these casinos are rigged, especially when you stick your largest bet down?

But yet you continue to play them???

if something feels crooked to me I dont continue to play with them. I played at CASINO ON AIR and CASINO BAR a while ago. I remember they advertised on "spedia" which I happened to glance at my young cousins account with spedia. Gave them a try they looked like a fun new casino to play at. I dumped 5k on those two before It finally sunk in that they were indeed rigged. Now, you may think 5k is a lot but my avg play back then was 10 or 15k per casino group. So... I had such feelings that Casino bar/air was rigged that I cut my losses which I normally dont do. This was 1999 i think. Just recently I read wizard of odds article. No surprise. Its not rocket science to figure out when stuff is rigged.

When you lose a decent amount of money to these crooks it does leave a bad taste in your mouth, but you have to say to yourself "It was a learning experience, im smarter now". I wish I had found this board sooner as I probably could have avoided some of my largest loses on the worst casinos.


Lesson is... If you play 1000 hands of blackjack you get a feel for whats fair and whats not. If you even have a slight doubt that your being dealt rigged hands, CUT YOUR LOSSES. Play at well known names like fortune lounge. I know I must sound like i advertise fortune lounge so much, but I have a lot of respect for that group. I feel safe depositing large money with them, something I havent felt with any other casinos.

 

[jerseyguy11]

Also want to send a message to VPops of fortune lounge. As i was in litigation with Visa I was researching a great amount of case law, public policy etc.

In 2001 (If i remember correctly) state of NJ (where I live) sued 7 sultans to stop them from accepting/soliciting NJ bets. You guys settled (with attn gen of NJ) to stop accepting memberships from NJ locations.

Well that fact alone has kept me from playing at 7sultans yet I never tried to open an account to see If I would be accepted as a player from NJ. But i have been playing at the other casinos in fortune group. Im glad thats still possible.

Online gambling is sometimes unsafe and its nice that the attny general took a stand (even though it was a "half a$$ stand" compared to elliott spitzers stance on the subject) on pursuing casinos. But what the goverment has to understand is that only federally regulated casinos will ensure honest play (not to mention the taxes US goverment gets, those bums ). But if they want to pursue a casino, they should go after places on the rouge list not honest "always pays out cashins" casinos like fortune lounge.

SO i have a lot of respect for you guys. stay honest

-shadyplayer22

 

[cipher]

Thanks Cipher, that's what I was actually looking for - people to post their own offerings of the dealer double whammy (or treble in these two case).

And then there was the nines.

 

[DeMango]

Greetings Cipher;
What is your take on Craps, Sic Bo, Baccarrat where you can bet one way or the other. Any indications of foul play where say the odds favor don't if you play pass line, High vs Low, Player vs Banker.

 

[daywalker]

Wow, you have some great interpretive skills. I'm saying that Blackjack on the internet can be rigged by the software providers and I've personally recorded a great many sessions wherein the common denominator for such rigging is the seeding and dumping of small valued cards particularly when the wager is increased. Now is that spelled out clearly enough for you?

I think it was you who didn't understand so I'll stick to my last line which is, despite all these claims or feelings of rigging -

You continue to play casinos on line?

Now personally, if I thought I was getting done over by the casinos I'd walk away and have nothing to do with it. I hope you don't bleat everytime you lose online?

 

[caruso]

I hope you don't bleat everytime you lose online?

A little more respect is owed to a long standing player with his fair share of credentials in assisting on high-profile disputes than is demonstrated by this remark.

 

[cipher]

I think it was you who didn't understand so I'll stick to my last line which is, despite all these claims or feelings of rigging -

You continue to play casinos on line?

Now personally, if I thought I was getting done over by the casinos I'd walk away and have nothing to do with it. I hope you don't bleat everytime you lose online?

Actually, I have a rather substantial record of winning at on-line casinos and that record is established, not by me, but by none other than some of the higher profile casino owners. Had you done any research at all you would have learned that without having put your foot in your mouth again.

Lastly you are the one who made the assumption that there was a loss incurred.

Again for the record I don't lose and that is only because I make it my business to know more about the Blackjack system that I'm playing then even the owners of the casino knows. That my friend is a fact.

And yes everytime I see B.S. such as the "nines" I do intend to post that information for all players to see.

 

[cipher]

Greetings Cipher;
What is your take on Craps, Sic Bo, Baccarrat where you can bet one way or the other. Any indications of foul play where say the odds favor don't if you play pass line, High vs Low, Player vs Banker.

Hi DeMango,

Our main area of concern to date is and has been on Blackjack given it's huge popularity over the other venues such as Craps, Sic Bo & Baccarrat. Though work has begun on plug-ins for those venues as well.

What I generally like to do is get a feel for a particular venue by utilizing the program in real play, whether I'm playing for myself or others, so that we can generate a significant enough sample with which to make what turns out to be some pretty reliable calculations.

I don't anticipate that type of data being available for Craps, Sic Bo and/or Baccarrat any sooner than within a year from now.

Thanks for the interest and have a good one.

 

[bpb]

Wow, you have some great interpretive skills. I'm saying that Blackjack on the internet can be rigged by the software providers and I've personally recorded a great many sessions wherein the common denominator for such rigging is the seeding and dumping of small valued cards particularly when the wager is increased. Now is that spelled out clearly enough for you?

Boy, that was kind of a nasty response to a simple (and reasonable) question of "Why would you play at a known rigged site?"

Wouldn't a simple "I've determined a way to establish a pattern from the casinos attempted fraud and turn that pattern against the casino, thus giving me an advantage over the house." have sufficed? Were the opening and closing insults really necessary?

 

[cipher]

Boy, that was kind of a nasty response to a simple (and reasonable) question of "Why would you play at a known rigged site?"

Wouldn't a simple "I've determined a way to establish a pattern from the casinos attempted fraud and turn that pattern against the casino, thus giving me an advantage over the house." have sufficed? Were the opening and closing insults really necessary?

NO and YES

 

[DealerBusts]

Boy, that was kind of a nasty response to a simple (and reasonable) question of "Why would you play at a known rigged site?"

Wouldn't a simple "I've determined a way to establish a pattern from the casinos attempted fraud and turn that pattern against the casino, thus giving me an advantage over the house." have sufficed? Were the opening and closing insults really necessary?

i think you'll find that daywalker didn't phrase his/her questions in a very courteous manner.

 

[caruso]

Just to prove it can go the other way, and in an apparent attempt to derail my own thread (??), see below - $350 redeposit double.

It's fair to say I've had plenty of ups as well as downs in the Kamikaze Blackjack department, although my experience at that level is nothing like as extensive as at more moderate levels. In fact, my ups are rather greater than my downs. The Casino Grand Bay redeposit double + split simply annoyed me so much I was moved to have a good public grumble.