Poll New stake limits announced in the UK (£5/£2) - gone too far or not far enough?

[conker]

It appears today is the day that the recently installed Labour government has rolled out the news on what will be happening on stake limits for online slots moving forward:

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The Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) has announced:
- £5 stake limit on slots for adults aged 25+
- £2 stake limit on slots for adults aged 18-24
- Taxes on gambling companies set to be increased to pay for addiction treatment

Gambling minister Fiona Twycross said:

Gambling harm can ruin people’s finances, relationships, and ultimately lives.

She said the government would introduce "the first legally mandated" tax on the betting industry to fund gambling addiction treatment.

There has been a lively thread at Casinomeister discussing the subject as recently as today, with varying opinions on the subject. I don't believe any of those discussing stake limits in this thread were aware this announcement was due.

I've set up a poll to get some thoughts on stake limits, this is open to all members. You don't need to be from the UK of live in the UK to take part. We're really interested in your thoughts as to whether you feel these government interventions are helping or hindering the situation.

 

[Siohmy]

Great news. RTP online will drop to 94% and below across the board and bookies/arcades to less than 90% on £1/£2 bets. Will save me a bunch of money as I won’t go anywhere near them.
Going off the BBC report, I’d be interested which firms only contributed £1 to help addiction. In that respect I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

 

[goatwack]

Limits have always been moot to hinder problem gambling anyway, as all that's been achieved is to slow the inevitable bustout by a couple of minutes. Whoop-de-do

Any gambler of moderate means slapping down a score to eke out a session isn't going to be harbouring thoughts of £5 bets anytime soon, and so by and large I'd imagine the majority of slotters are going to be indifferent to this announcement.

£5 bets aren't normal, and £2 bets are pretty much nose-bleed territory for lowrollers, despite what Drake, Neymar and ArseHatMan may tell you.

Those that like to reel off £10 bets after depositing £30 may be disturbed by this news, and there'll always exist those 'fast & loose' type of gamblers, who won't have their impulses curbed by the stake limit, just lose it in a more meandering manner.

But ultimately it will drive high-stakes punters to orange-filled destinations to get their kicks, and 'rid' the UK of its problem gamblers, in what has probably been the UKGC's 'masterplan' all along. Now that's some 4-D Chess right there

 

[conker]

Many companies and organisations have motivational messages on the wall. If you have been watching the superb restaurant-themed 'The Bear' recently you will have seen this with 'Every Second Counts'.

I believe the motivational sign on the wall at the DCMS (and could be equally shared with the UKGC) would be:

"No good deed will go unpunished"

It appears any attempt by the government or the Gambling Commission to reign in gambling companies and protect gamblers has an equal, and arguably, worse effect when it is introduced.

Examples:

Ban credit cards

Effect: Gamblers start withdrawing cash on their credit cards and loading it onto their debit cards or head to the crypto sites

Gamstop introduced, preventing access to all 'licensed casinos' to those who register

Effect: Black market erupts, 'casinos not on gamstop' becomes a huge opportunity for bottom feeders.

I could go on with ID checks, SOW, free play games access, etc etc.

These interventions frequently feel poorly thought through with little or no insights from people within the industry that would understand the effects many of these changes would have. The tin-eared approach just seems to be a slow painful death march for gambling in the UK.

 

[jasonuk]

There has been a lively thread at Casinomeister discussing the subject as recently as today, with varying opinions on the subject. I don't believe any of those discussing stake limits in this thread were aware this announcement was due.

Why would an announcement be due? The £2 and £5 slot limits were announced in February, and already supposed to be implemented in September. That's why the OP started the thread, because the UKGC has made no noise on this topic, despite being two months late.

The government "announcement" adds nothing to the conversation, apart from patting themselves on the back. I don't even think the GGY levy announcement is new either...

The one thing they could have included in this re-announcement was timeframes, and... nope

I've set up a poll to get some thoughts on stake limits, this is open to all members. You don't need to be from the UK of live in the UK to take part. We're really interested in your thoughts as to whether you feel these government interventions are helping or hindering the situation.

I voted for "too high", but my nuanced answer is "it depends". I think it makes much more sense to control this at the deposit level, and then the player can choose how they want to play:

• For a low-roller, this changes nothing.
• For high-rollers, they've got a decision to make - either accept £5 spins, or go to the high seas. This isn't a gated block but an absolute one, so if Johnny Billionaire wants to play £10 spins, he can't under the UK regime.
• For a player on a hot streak, £5 spins is probably spicy enough for most, but it may lure them to the tables which are still uncapped.
• For an addict, I fear this won't have the impact the regulators are expecting... they can play longer, they can play on multiple sites, they can set sail for the high seas, they can play table games etc... if they're not getting the buzz they'll find a way they can, and that starts a game of whack-a-mole where everything needs to come down to low stakes...
  • And if they're smitten with the monopoly money crowd, £5 bets on a streamer slot could still cause a £3000+ hole within an hour...

 

[conker]

Thanks for voting @jasonuk and many others who have taken part and will take part.

The UK government needs to look tough on Gambling, they have been beseeched with negative stories in the press and hammered by anti-gambling lobbies to get a grip of the situation. Stake limits are a great headline grabber, as they sounds tough and people who know nothing about appear impressed. Little do they know you can rinse though thousands of pounds in less than an hour at £5 stakes.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that something smarter could be done at the point of deposit. But no one has come up with a way of preventing access to the black market - and it is highly unlikely that they ever will.

Maybe the only real weapon the government has is educating the public. They could do this at school level or even start creating public awareness campaigns. There always seems to be this 'taboo' around the subject and no one dare mention gambling just in case it suddenly turns everyone into addicts.

 

[dunover]

I'm not sure the £2 and £5 limits are even that relevant now given that 99% of punters wouldn't get past a few hours on them before SoW checks curtailed their enhanced 'enjoyment' anyway.

 

[jasonuk]

Stake limits are a great headline grabber, as they sounds tough and people who know nothing about appear impressed.

Clearly, given how many news sites are reporting this verbatim as a new announcement, rather than pointing out it was announced in February and is overdue since September. As dunover mentions, the background checks and/or CDD should be kicking in first anyway... which means it primarily impacts people who can afford it.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that something smarter could be done at the point of deposit. But no one has come up with a way of preventing access to the black market - and it is highly unlikely that they ever will.

Of course, that becomes the ultimate game of cat and mouse - much like scammers and scambaiters, virus writers and anti-virus software. Criminals (which is what many of them are) will use all the tools at their disposal to make money at other people's expense.

The problem is there's not been much pushback by the UKGC here - and given the amount of fraud openly happening in Curacao, Costa Rica, Anjouan and elsewhere - it's becoming a real headache for everyone else.

Then we get stuff the UKGC does have oversight of, such as the TGP white labels, which is an open goal for questionable Crypto and Asian casinos to flood the UK market with adverts. A six figure fine doesn't mean much when the crypto brands are throwing around eight figures for one set of sponsorship rights...

It's tough to say what a fair balance would be, but it's pretty safe to say we're nowhere near that right now...

 

[conker]

Clearly, given how many news sites are reporting this verbatim as a new announcement, rather than pointing out it was announced in February and is overdue since September.

I agree with you, however there has been a change in government and therefore there was no guarantee that Labour would just follow the previous announcements by the Tories. I see today's announcement as clarification that they will be pushing ahead with what already has been agreed, whilst also using it as cover for adding new taxes.

If you remember back to when £2 limits were first floated, I think around 2022, they did create a lot of headlines and sent a few shockwaves through the entire UK gambling market. Pro-gambling lobbyists moved quickly to get that adjusted up to £5.

 

[jasonuk]

If you remember back to when £2 limits were first floated, I think around 2022, they did create a lot of headlines and sent a few shockwaves through the entire UK gambling market. Pro-gambling lobbyists moved quickly to get that adjusted up to £5.

Because it actually targeted something of significance:

• The £2 FOBT limit included table games, the online one does not;
• The £2 FOBT limit included Big Bet linked spins on slots - not particularly common online, and bonus buys are already banned;
• There were less checks at the time for responsible gambling and plenty of people being four figures into a FOBT in one session... yet by the time this "new" New Labour legislation goes through the online affordability check rules will be tightened and starting at £150 net loss a month per operator.

So when you slice away those changes, what do you actually have left? Not a lot... and perhaps why the industry aren't fighting this one hard, because it doesn't matter. There are much bigger concerns for them on the horizon... like the threat of a doubled GGY tax rate.

 

[coolrunnings19]

Because it actually targeted something of significance:

• The £2 FOBT limit included table games, the online one does not;
• The £2 FOBT limit included Big Bet linked spins on slots - not particularly common online, and bonus buys are already banned;
• There were less checks at the time for responsible gambling and plenty of people being four figures into a FOBT in one session... yet by the time this "new" New Labour legislation goes through the online affordability check rules will be tightened and starting at £150 net loss a month per operator.

So when you slice away those changes, what do you actually have left? Not a lot... and perhaps why the industry aren't fighting this one hard, because it doesn't matter. There are much bigger concerns for them on the horizon... like the threat of a doubled GGY tax rate

 

[coolrunnings19]

That's true, to be honest they could have left the stake at unlimited and if someone wanted to do £10 or £20 pound spins then they would only be able to do about 15 or 20 until they will have background checks done and then a few more and then they will have SOW demands so the max stake limit wouldn't change too much. it is kind of acting as a more proportionate number of spins that you can do up to the amount that the casino will say right that's you monthly limit now!

 

[coolrunnings19]

I'm not sure the £2 and £5 limits are even that relevant now given that 99% of punters wouldn't get past a few hours on them before SoW checks curtailed their enhanced 'enjoyment' anyway.

probably about half an hour doing 2 or 5 pounds spins if they don't get a decent bonus. I think max stake should be £2 for everyone as you say the monthly loss limits will kick in anyway after about 200 spins or so!

 

[winner2021]

@coolrunnings19 half an hour-I wish! My average time to lose £100 on a £1 stake is 7 mins. Although it's been a long time since I did that as I've mostly switched to slingo, where I regularly get hourly sessions out of £100. Not that I recommend slingo either, speaking of which-I wonder if they are doing anything about slingo? You can have £2 a spin but then buy a bonus for £30+ and you can do that as many times as you want until you get the bonus round you're after.

Slots I only usually play between 1-3 lines as I'd rather stick all my money on those than spread it between 20 lines. Maybe that's why I do so badly on them! So personally I don't mind if they keep it at £5 but you can choose how many lines. If it's only 50p a line max but you can do 10 lines, er pass.

 

[coolrunnings19]

@coolrunnings19 half an hour-I wish! My average time to lose £100 on a £1 stake is 7 mins. Although it's been a long time since I did that as I've mostly switched to slingo, where I regularly get hourly sessions out of £100. Not that I recommend slingo either, speaking of which-I wonder if they are doing anything about slingo? You can have £2 a spin but then buy a bonus for £30+ and you can do that as many times as you want until you get the bonus round you're after.

Slots I only usually play between 1-3 lines as I'd rather stick all my money on those than spread it between 20 lines. Maybe that's why I do so badly on them! So personally I don't mind if they keep it at £5 but you can choose how many lines. If it's only 50p a line max but you can do 10 lines, er pass.

Well it would be 50p max per line if it is 10 lines, 25p if 20 lines etc, I always play all the 10 or 20 lines, but I don't think they will be allowed with slings, that's classed as a slot isn't it??

 

[Avernite]

Seems fair to me, but as I'm not UK selected I don't know. You can burn through huge money on $2 a spin.

Maybe for the super high rollers they can provide SOW for special accounts with higher limits?

 

[jasonuk]

Seems fair to me, but as I'm not UK selected I don't know. You can burn through huge money on $2 a spin.

Maybe for the super high rollers they can provide SOW for special accounts with higher limits?

• For high-rollers, they've got a decision to make - either accept £5 spins, or go to the high seas. This isn't a gated block but an absolute one, so if Johnny Billionaire wants to play £10 spins, he can't under the UK regime.

Not as far as we are aware... which adds yet another "pull" to the high seas for VIPs and high-rollers.

An interesting question with Slingo (and other non-table games that have secondary bets), will the £5 limit apply to one bet, or to the entire game round?

Regarding line bets, I don't think that restriction will apply - it'll come down to implementation details per provider. For example, there are slots currently that offer e.g. £4 non-ante bets, but then disable the ante bet option (e.g. £4 -> £6) because it exceeds the limit. If there is demand for £5 one-line action, I'm sure the providers will be falling over themselves to provide it .

 

[TheBingoKingx]

Are there really alot of people that actually like slingo anyways? you dont seem to get anywhere without buy after buy after buy of extra balls?

 

[winner2021]

Well it would be 50p max per line if it is 10 lines, 25p if 20 lines etc, I always play all the 10 or 20 lines, but I don't think they will be allowed with slings, that's classed as a slot isn't it??

I was hoping they'd allow you to pick and choose but you're probably right and it'd be for all lines. I guess they could bring slingo down to £2-£5 max starting bet but then not take into account buying more spins?

Are there really alot of people that actually like slingo anyways? you dont seem to get anywhere without buy after buy after buy of extra balls?

Probably just me lol. I only play fluffy favourites slingo as you can get a 100x on the first bonus round (occasionally) so it saves having to spend a lot. Still can be pricey tho. I lost a lot on it last year but that was mainly from not quitting whilst ahead rather than just not winning at all like on normal slots.

 

[viewsource]

The problem is there's not been much pushback by the UKGC here - and given the amount of fraud openly happening in Curacao, Costa Rica, Anjouan and elsewhere - it's becoming a real headache for everyone else.

Would you mind expanding on what the openly happening fraud going on in these regions is?

My goto casino is licensed in costa rica and whilst I accept the regulator is non existent and my legal recourse is effectively null - that doesn't mean they are running an illegal operation.

I'm curious if you're referring to straight up scam sites - in which case does it really matter where they are incorporated? Or rather is there is something specific about those regions which equates to fraud?

Judging by your posts I don't believe you're simply saying fraud when in fact you mean 'legal grey area' so genuinely curious to understand more.

Perhaps something else you might know which was never clear to me is - what was the trigger for allowing all the tier 1 providers to start allowing their services in these regions? Once upon a time that was not the case.

 

[Webzcas]

For 'most' people £5 a spin is incredibly high regardless. I mean a sizeable bankroll could be easily wiped out at that level should a slot decide to go cold on you for a period of time.

However, I can and do understand as to why many people feel it is yet another restriction imposed on them by the 'Nanny State' courtesy of the UKGC.

I do get that. Some of my big wins in years gone by have come from betting big when playing slots. But I have to say I would only bet £5 or more on a spin if I had achieved a superb win beforehand. Hence gambling with money that technically wasn't mine in the first place.

Unless you have serious deep pockets, betting at over £5 a spin from the off is pretty much out of the question IMO, certainly if you are controlled with your gambling past time.

I think what has and is killing the industry in the UK are the really intrusive SoW checks and if like me you are a slot player, the removal of autoplay. These for me rate much higher in precedent as to why I would look offshore and outside the UKGC's remit.

 

[coolrunnings19]

For 'most' people £5 a spin is incredibly high regardless. I mean a sizeable bankroll could be easily wiped out at that level should a slot decide to go cold on you for a period of time.

However, I can and do understand as to why many people feel it is yet another restriction imposed on them by the 'Nanny State' courtesy of the UKGC.

I do get that. Some of my big wins in years gone by have come from betting big when playing slots. But I have to say I would only bet £5 or more on a spin if I had achieved a superb win beforehand. Hence gambling with money that technically wasn't mine in the first place.

Unless you have serious deep pockets, betting at over £5 a spin from the off is pretty much out of the question IMO, certainly if you are controlled with your gambling past time.

I think what has and is killing the industry in the UK are the really intrusive SoW checks and if like me you are a slot player, the removal of autoplay. These for me rate much higher in precedent as to why I would look offshore and outside the UKGC's remit.

you are absolutely right, you can lose 300 pounds easily in a few minutes if you play 5 pounds a spin (or even 2 pounds). 2 seconds between each spin and if a slot is wanting to be playing like a pain then if you do the maths, 300 pounds lost in 5 minutes roughly. But yes imagine if it was 10 or 20 pounds a spins it would be thousands and this wouldn't not be possible under the new restrictions. But on the plus side for the casino, if you lost 300 pounds in 5 minutes then a player thought let me up it to 10 pounds a spin and I will do 10 spins if they hit a big win at say x50 or x100 they will effectively get the 500 pound or 1000 pound win and be in profit, that won't be possible now either. However, regardless of the max bet size, even if it was more than the 5 pounds (say 10 or 20, or 50!) you wouldn't be able to have many spins anyway as the affordability checks will kick in! Soft checks are done at 125 or 150 a month a day if you pass those, then I would imagine at 500 pounds of losses in a month they are going to start asking questions and requesting documents, so it's not just so much the max stake limit, it is actually the deposit/loss limit that will kick in anyway before you can go and spend a whole load of money.