New Bonus Type

[dominique]

The irony here is that the majority of us who are discussing this bonus, can't use it because we live in the US.

Hehe, keeps the discussion honest!

 

[Rusty]

First of all well done on trying to do something different.
Why not keep your original idea which is a good one but give players a choice.
They could either take the bonus as you set out or take one with no max cashout and WR, say 50% back with 20*WR.
That would save overcomplicating your original bonus and the player would have a clear choice between Two distinctively different bonuses.

 

[SlotsWizard]

XXL Club, any chance you will switch software providers to one that accepts US players?

 

[winbig]

XXL Club, any chance you will switch software providers to one that accepts US players?

One good thing to point out is their statement regarding US players that's on their main page.

It says they'll let their (dormant) US players know when they start accepting them again...so I guess there's always a chance.

 

[KasinoKing]

KK i'm some what bemused at why you would think this a good idea. Maybe i'm wrong but I always thought you were one of the most consistent breakeven/winning players on the forum. In effect you would never recieve a bonus of this casino

LOOOOOOOOL at "Generous" Doesn't generous imply you may actually give something away?

I consider MG and Wagerlogic bonuses generours not due to there cash or play value but the fact there is no limit on cashouts, this for me is the most important fact. If at best you can only break even then I feel the bonus is a worthless offer to the player.

XXL Club answered for me:-

Hmm, but you really get a first chance to win big with your deposit like in any landbase casino plus get the second chance to breakeven.

This is the bit I liked;
You deposit & can 'go large' chasing a big win.
If you get it, you cash out - no restrictions as there's no bonus involved.
If you blow out, you get the chance to try to win your deposit back.
Sounds cool to me!

PS: XXL - it's bloody LOSE not LOOSE!!!

 

[Kaynos72]

Remove the maximum cashout and i'll be happy to split 50/50 any winning that happens from the get back deposit.

Like i said in my first message, with your offer, i loose 100, you give me 50 back and win jackpot of 5000, i get 100$, you get 4900.

Without that restriction we get 2500 each, casino still makes TONS of cash and players are more inclined to play.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

XXL Club answered for me:-

This is the bit I liked;
You deposit & can 'go large' chasing a big win.
If you get it, you cash out - no restrictions as there's no bonus involved.
If you blow out, you get the chance to try to win your deposit back.
Sounds cool to me!

PS: XXL - it's bloody LOSE not LOOSE!!!

Ok, ok lose..., not loose ;-)

 

[aka23]

The proper way to play this insurance bonus would be:

Phase 1 (you just deposited, no playthrough, no max cashout) - make your large bets here and/or play the progressive jackpot games.

If you lose, you enter Phase 2 (where you can only cash out half of the balance, up to the amount of your original deposit) - here, you would play small, sensible bets in blackjack, etc. in an effort to work back up to twice your deposit amount. Don't make foolishly large bets here because you know what will happen if you win big. Also, don't play games with large progressive jackpots. If you get up to 2x your deposit then cash out and call it a day - you broke even.

I disagree. Consider two scenarios:
1. Play with $50 bonus.
2. Cash out 50% of $50 bonus, and then redeposit the $25.

In both case 1 & 2, if you quadruple your bankroll, you get to cash out $100. With case 1, 50%*200 = $100. With case 2, 100%*$100 = $100. If you cash out at 2x instead of 4x, you get to cash out $50. If you lose it all, your net loss is only the initial $100. The one situation where results are different is if you get a big win and reach more than 4x your balance. You can cash out the full winnings with play #2, but you only get $100 with play #1. So redepositing the $25 (case #2) is like getting the bonus and having no max cash out.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Remove the maximum cashout and i'll be happy to split 50/50 any winning that happens from the get back deposit.

Like i said in my first message, with your offer, i loose 100, you give me 50 back and win jackpot of 5000, i get 100$, you get 4900.

Without that restriction we get 2500 each, casino still makes TONS of cash and players are more inclined to play.

How can we make a ton of cash if we payout 2500 from a 100 deposit?

It's really a little more complicate than that. Payout % over all games are between 96 and 110% so offering 50% kick back is a lot believe me! We might well and up losing (KK) money with this promotion.

I'm awaiting the result of the first 3 days but we already had 4 big winners using the obvious strategy pointed out by SlotsJunkie.

 

[lojo]

Hmm, but you really get a first chance to win big with your deposit like in any landbase casino plus get the second chance to breakeven.

I know you can't do this because you don't have a 'captive audience' like a landbased casino has, and it is a 'sign up' bonus but:

Peppermill Reno

$100 Free slot play (actually insurance)

I go in, sign up, get a card, put it in a machine, play with my own money to my heart's content.

scenario 1: I am ahead x$, I don't cash in my 'policy'

Scenario 2: I lost all $100 or any part thereof. I go to the kiosk, they credit my players card with the amount of my losses up to $100 (generic offer for first time players, they later give the same comp at other amounts based on playthrough)
Now I have an amount equal to my losses to play off of my bonus account.
The WR are 1x each 'deposit' from my bonus account, and then I can withdraw any amount I win.
++++++++++

Food for thought anyway

 

[SlotsWizard]

I disagree. Consider two scenarios:
1. Play with $50 bonus.
2. Cash out 50% of $50 bonus, and then redeposit the $25.

In both case 1 & 2, if you quadruple your bankroll, you get to cash out $100. With case 1, 50%*200 = $100. With case 2, 100%*$100 = $100. If you cash out at 2x instead of 4x, you get to cash out $50. If you lose it all, your net loss is only the initial $100. The one situation where results are different is if you get a big win and reach more than 4x your balance. You can cash out the full winnings with play #2, but you only get $100 with play #1. So redepositing the $25 (case #2) is like getting the bonus and having no max cash out.

Agreed - mostly. The trade-off is the higher risk of ruin vs. no max cashout. Where I disagree is that, if you are going to cash out and redeposit anyway, you are probably better off quadrupling it before you withdraw by playing smallish bets on blackjack, etc. (you will be starting with twice the amount that you would if you immediately withdrew and redeposited - lower risk of ruin, better chance of quadrupling).

Anyway, while the last several posts were made, I was typing this up although some of it is already obsolete because a 3rd point of view has been introduced -

There are two different points of view here and I think I understand both of them:

Point of View #1: The player would never be silly enough to use the kickback to play anything where they could possibly win a big jackpot. They would stick to blackjack, craps, roulette, baccarat, etc. to quadruple the kickback so that they would get their deposit back, and cash out.

Point of View #2: Understands Point of View #1, however, once they have reached the break-even point, what if they want to continue playing? It seems like a lot of wasted time, effort and transaction fees for XXL to withdraw and then redeposit the same amount if the player simply wants to play with their deposit again with no strings attached. Instead of going from A to B and then B to C, perhaps there should be a mechanism in the cashier which would allow the player to go from A directly to C (thereby saving XXL two unnecessary transaction fees).

And then, if the player loses that, then they don't get another kickback until their next physical deposit.

Also - if the cashout is 50%, you should provide clear instructions in the cashier as to how to go about entering a withdrawal amount. There will always be the question of whether the player should subtract 50% when they enter the amount they wish to withdraw, or will the casino subtract the 50% from what the player entered. For example, if the player worked the kickback up to $200, and their original deposit was $100, which is what they want to withdraw, does the player enter $200 or do they enter $100 as the withdrawal amount?

 

[steinhaug]

How can we make a ton of cash if we payout 2500 from a 100 deposit?

What a nasty way of saying what you just did!

 

[aka23]

Agreed - mostly. The trade-off is the higher risk of ruin vs. no max cashout.

The risk of ruin is the same, assuming bet size is the same proportion to bankroll in both cases. If bet size not in proportion to bankroll and is instead a fixed value, then there is greater variance in the $25 case.

Where I disagree is that, if you are going to cash out and redeposit anyway, you are probably better off quadrupling it before you withdraw by playing smallish bets on blackjack, etc. (you will be starting with twice the amount that you would if you immediately withdrew and redeposited - lower risk of ruin, better chance of quadrupling).

If you quadruple before you cash out with low risk bets, you have about a 1 in 4 chance of reaching $200 and cashing out 50% * $200 = $100. If you instead cashout and redposit, then make bets in an equal proportion to your bankroll, then you have the same chance of reaching 4x bankroll and the same chance of cashing out $100.

 

[lojo]

What a nasty way of saying what you just did!

I think the community will stay on task here and not create a fray.

One of the most amazing things about this forum, is that we can interact with both sides of the equation. Please let the conversation stay on task and address 'manners' in personal messages. please.

 

[steinhaug]

If you quadruple before you cash out with low risk bets, you have about a 1 in 4 chance of reaching $200 and cashing out 50% * $200 = $100. If you instead cashout and redposit, then make bets in an equal proportion to your bankroll, then you have the same chance of reaching 4x bankroll and the same chance of cashing out $100.

Not to mention, if you hit an insane win - you can accually cash it out,

 

[SlotsWizard]

Not to mention, if you hit an insane win - you can accually cash it out,

Yes but if you are playing with the kickback, you should only play something like blackjack where it is impossible to hit an insane win and therefore get 'screwed' by the max cashout. If someone is foolish enough to play a progressive or something with the kickback then they deserve what they get.

My point is that it is a lot easier (for me, at least) to turn $50 into $200 than to turn $25 into $100, so I would stick it out and get my deposit back before withdrawing, then deposit it again and play something where I could possibly hit an insane win.

 

[SlotsWizard]

If someone is foolish enough to play a progressive or something with the kickback then they deserve what they get.

Look at me, quoting myself.

Anyway... on the other hand.... you could also choose to play something where you could win big, for the sole purpose of racking up comp points. If I remember correctly, the comp structure on Playtechs were pretty good.

"Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good"
-Larry David

 

[EasyRhino]

XXL, first of all, thanks for trying to come up with an interesting bonus. And thank you for floating it out here in meisterspace. I think it's neat to get players involved, even if it's just us bozos.

However, I think you're setting yourselves up for problems with this idea. I have a few points:

1) First, at the simplest level (cash out the insurance immediately), you are offering a 25% insurance offer. This is fairly generous as an ongoing policy. An aggressive player who busts out a lot could probably turn this into a 20% advantage. Is this a bonus that you really can afford to offer?

2) Second, from the casino's standpoint, wouldn't you want to keep players playing as long as possible? This makes the max cashout rule silly. Every single hand or spin they play on the insurance, their balance is going to be chipped away at by the house advantage (and if you offer 110% payout games, please PM me with the details!). Someone with an insurance worth $25 is going to play for an hour or two, and that will reduce the expected value to around $15. If you allow players to chase the jackpot, there is a better chance that they will keep playing, allowing the house edge to chip at them more.

If you put a cap on the winnings, then you're going to have more players stop wagering at a certain point. Less wagering = less earnings for the casino.

This is basic gambling math, here. I don't think you should sweat the action from the jackpot-chasers, they're your best clients! Any bonus-hustlers will have already cashed out immediately upon receipt of the insurance.

In fact, the only way the winnings cap reduces the cost to the casino is in cases where the winnings are arbitrarily truncated at 100% from a value that was much higher. And in technical terms, this portion of the max cashout clause is called "being a douche".

------

Here's a slightly modulated idea, which I think would keep some of the fun factor in it for players:

1) Offer insurance of a certain level (let's say 25%). The player can play with it freely as they wish.
2) When the player cashes out, if their balance is anywhere between 1% and 100% of their initial deposit, then they can withdraw that amount.
3) If their balance is above 100% of their initial deposit, then they can withdraw 100%, plus half of the excess. For instance, if their initial deposit was $100, their insurance would be $25, and let's say they run the balance up to $1000. Their cashout value would be $100+($900/2) or $550.

This way the casino still has a serious edge on the insurance payout, but if a player wants to go for it, they still can, and still can get some sort of payout for it.

... Even with this method, there is a flaw in that it only works if you lose with your entire deposit, or cashout with your entire deposit.

 

[happygobrokey]

cool thread! i think the idea is great, but as the members are suggesting, still needs refinement. the insurance is nice, but knowing your max win with it is only breaking even (minus all the associated transfer and currency fees) is disheartening.

also, as it is a gratuity given by the casino, many will treat it with less value than their own real money. if you made the max cashout 2-5 times the deposit amount (keeping the 50% reduction in there meaning a 4-10uple-up), you will get many more players losing going after a max win. it has been said here already: more play equals more losses. and the illusion of winning is why people want to play.

it's also been said that the value remains at $25, because you only stand to make the max one in four times the way it is now. if you make the max higher, more people will lose outright, and fewer will take the sure thing without even giving play (since the ones who would do this are probably doing so since they cannot really win anything no matter how well/lucky they play).

a free chance to win is cool, but right now the offer is a free chance to avoid losing (and you must fare twice as well to actually accomplish it since half must be given back).

footnote: forgive my use of the second person. "one" of course being the more acceptable, but i think the context makes it clear enough i am not talking to anyone particular and it is easy to tell who i mean in each instance.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Strategy

There is a nice strategy here for the bonus hustler, and one which is probably already happening.

1) Deposit $100
2)Make one bet of $100 on a near 50/50 outcome on a game such as Blackjack.
3)if successful, withdraw the $200
if not, withdraw the insurance (or the 50% of it that can be, $25)
4) When paid, go to 1)

Repeat until banned

This will, in effect, be a Blackjack session over time with a fixed $100 bet, where winning bets are paid in full, and all losing bets are refunded at 25% - this is +EV over the long term, and a disciplined hustler WILL do this!

 

[SlotsWizard]

There is a nice strategy here for the bonus hustler, and one which is probably already happening.

1) Deposit $100
2)Make one bet of $100 on a near 50/50 outcome on a game such as Blackjack.
3)if successful, withdraw the $200
if not, withdraw the insurance (or the 50% of it that can be, $25)
4) When paid, go to 1)

Repeat until banned

This will, in effect, be a Blackjack session over time with a fixed $100 bet, where winning bets are paid in full, and all losing bets are refunded at 25% - this is +EV over the long term, and a disciplined hustler WILL do this!

Good point...

Was this an ongoing bonus available on every deposit, or a one-time-only type of thing?

 

[KasinoKing]

How can we make a ton of cash if we payout 2500 from a 100 deposit?

What a nasty way of saying what you just did!

I agree with kimss here - that was an "unfortunate" thing for XXL to say.

The discussion was about only being able to cash out half of a $5000 win in the 'cash-back phase'.
The point was that effectively XXLClub would be 'keeping' the other $2,500 of the winnings without even playing!
If the player won the $5000 off a normal $100 deposit they would keep it all.
Therefore it could be seen as the casino 'profiting' from the win. (Though in reality it would be XXL not losing as much).

PS: XXL it's complicated, not complicate.
I just can't wiin with you, can I?

 

[happygobrokey]

well, you cracked it v-dub. dang, you're clever. xxl will not be pleased.

if this reaches 2+2 (or forum.fok.nl if dutch are allowed to play there), the casino will go out of business, unless they cut this promo in time.

has anyone played it yet? or was xxl just running it past us here first to surmise the foreseeable effects?

if i had scads of money i'd go give it a whirl, but all my funds are tied up so viciously right now, i haven't been able to play for one reason or another in the past two weeks.

 

[SlotsWizard]

well, you cracked it v-dub. dang, you're clever. xxl will not be pleased.

if this reaches 2+2 (or forum.fok.nl if dutch are allowed to play there), the casino will go out of business, unless they cut this promo in time.

has anyone played it yet? or was xxl just running it past us here first to surmise the foreseeable effects?

I think they made it sound like they already started offering it.

But what remains to be answered is whether or not this is a one-time-only bonus. If so, then they will remain in business. If not, it's still not too bad because they will be able to take their time with withdrawals and figure out who is on to it.

 

[happygobrokey]

yeah but that's criminal, to hold back anything because we played it good and to our advantage. deal's a deal innit