Question Microgaming: Different TRTP settings?

nikantw

Closed Account
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Location
EU
I had a question about the Dragon Dance slot. Looking for the TRTP I noticed it was different at Trada than VS. Then I looked on other sites. The TRTP% reported for this game is 96.31% and 96.52% at some casinos and 98.00% at others.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Different TRTP even between sister casinos (32red and Dash).
There are differences in other slots too. Most between VS and the others, with VS being much higher.
 
I had a question about the Dragon Dance slot. Looking for the TRTP I noticed it was different at Trada than VS. Then I looked on other sites. The TRTP% reported for this game is 96.31% and 96.52% at some casinos and 98.00% at others.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Different TRTP even between sister casinos (32red and Dash).
There are differences in other slots too. Most between VS and the others, with VS being much higher.

And that's why the TRTP should be declared by the provider, 'attached' to the game in either the helpfile or paytable, and NOT left up to the individual casino to hide somewhere on their site, mistype or even round up to the nearest whole number.

VideoSlots tend to round up the TRTP figures.
 
Yes, what I meant was that Play'n Go for example have personally told me upon asking that their factory RTP (TRTP) is say 96.52% for a game, but operators can request a different math model, say 94.5%. As you said many casinos simply take the game with the highest TRTP figure as made, like yourselves. I didn't realize that Microgaming could also provide different RTP Models to their factory (highest) settings.
 
Yes, what I meant was that Play'n Go for example have personally told me upon asking that their factory RTP (TRTP) is say 96.52% for a game, but operators can request a different math model, say 94.5%. As you said many casinos simply take the game with the highest TRTP figure as made, like yourselves. I didn't realize that Microgaming could also provide different RTP Models to their factory (highest) settings.

From my experience, they don't.

What I believe is reflected on websites isn't the RTP that was originally provided (and let's say was tested over 50,000 spins), but is instead a reflection of the RTP that is currently being produced at the individual sites (where the games have possibly now done >1million spins).

UK Regulations state...

"3.7 Live RTP monitoring – amended requirement (RTS 5) 3.7.1 The Commission’s requirements on monitoring the live return to player (RTP) performance of games were formalised following the recent testing strategy consultation and came into force on 1 September 2016. For example, the updated strategy makes explicit the requirement for operators hosting games of chance to periodically use the transactional data to calculate the actual RTP and compare it against the designed (advertised) RTP."


(Bold & underlined part added by me to accentuate the part that could be most relevant & full document is
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
)
 
Last edited:
From my experience, they don't.

What I believe is reflected on websites isn't the RTP that was originally provided (and let's say was tested over 50,000 spins), but is instead a reflection of the RTP that is currently being produced at the individual sites (where the games have possibly now done >1million spins).

UK Regulations state...

"3.7 Live RTP monitoring – amended requirement (RTS 5) 3.7.1 The Commission’s requirements on monitoring the live return to player (RTP) performance of games were formalised following the recent testing strategy consultation and came into force on 1 September 2016. For example, the updated strategy makes explicit the requirement for operators hosting games of chance to periodically use the transactional data to calculate the actual RTP and compare it against the designed (advertised) RTP."


(Bold & underlined part added by me to accentuate the part that could be most relevant & full document is
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
)

Then why are the numbers the same? ;)
And also, if you look what they say (each casino) they say they post the Theoretical value. They literally say "that is what RTP you will get after millions of spins".
 
Hi Dunover,

I have sent you a PM

Br,
Daniel.
With respect, though I appreciate you answered dunover's Q, arent these the kinds of answers best posted in the thread since it's a general and germaine query to the thread and not private acct related?
 
Hi Dionysus,

I PM'd Dunover in regards to the question as I asked him to explain it further to me because I didn't quite understand what I was being asked. :)

Br,
Daniel.
 
Then why are the numbers the same? ;)
And also, if you look what they say (each casino) they say they post the Theoretical value. They literally say "that is what RTP you will get after millions of spins".

But the numbers on each of the sites linked aren't the same, so I'm not sure about your first q :confused:

Also, if you look at the VideoSlots page & they have a
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
section (at the bottom of the page). I'm afraid I don't agree that it shows what you claim & instead confirms they are displaying a what could be a constantly changing RTP (based upon players and payouts).

Perhaps this is one for Dan to confirm with regards to Videoslots
 
Hi All,

To my knowledge MG do not offer multiple RTP settings for slots and we have no control nor decision on the RTP's that we offer.

I suspect the differing RTP on 32Red owned sites is an oversight and I will get that checked and updated.

Thanks
Mark
 
But the numbers on each of the sites linked aren't the same, so I'm not sure about your first q :confused:

Also, if you look at the VideoSlots page & they have a
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
section (at the bottom of the page). I'm afraid I don't agree that it shows what you claim & instead confirms they are displaying a what could be a constantly changing RTP (based upon players and payouts).

Perhaps this is one for Dan to confirm with regards to Videoslots

You are wrong in both. VS post both values, Actual and Theoretical, you can change between them with this

upload_2018-3-16_17-44-30.jpeg

As for the 2nd part, pick a game, any game, and post all 18 numbers in the 11 sites. How about Mega Moolah?
 
But the numbers on each of the sites linked aren't the same, so I'm not sure about your first q :confused:

Also, if you look at the VideoSlots page & they have a
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
section (at the bottom of the page). I'm afraid I don't agree that it shows what you claim & instead confirms they are displaying a what could be a constantly changing RTP (based upon players and payouts).

Perhaps this is one for Dan to confirm with regards to Videoslots

Hi funnymunny,

As nikantw stated we do supply you with both, the actual RTP of the game and the Theoretical RTP which is based on our players game play.

Br,

Daniel.
 
You are wrong in both. VS post both values, Actual and Theoretical, you can change between them with this

View attachment 89265

As for the 2nd part, pick a game, any game, and post all 18 numbers in the 11 sites. How about Mega Moolah?



I apologise - I i didn't realise you were switching between Theoretical and Actual in your statements. (Thanks also to Dan for confirming - my oversight).

So you're asking why TRTP is different at different sites, right?

Not wishing to imply anything, but perhaps a confirmation of what RTP & TRTP may help(?)

The Theoretical RTP is the expected return of the total money bet over an extended number (millions) of plays on the game and expressed as a percentage. Therefore, games with a theoretical RTP value of 98% indicates that 98% of the total money bet on the game is returned to players.

The Actual RTP is determined by way of periodic analysis of the game outcomes, also expressed as a percentage, to ensure that this remains close to the Theoretical RTP and an indicator that the game continues to function properly, randomly and fairly.

Due to the random nature of slots, and the variation in what measures are used for each result (e.g. # spins), these results can be different.

As I have previously said and (32Red / Mark have echoed) from our experience MG do not offer different RTP settings for their games.
 
Last edited:
I apologise - I i didn't realise you were switching between Theoretical and Actual in your statements. (Thanks also to Dan for confirming - my oversight).

So you're asking why TRTP is different at different sites, right? TRTP isn't a setting - it's a theoretical value (i.e. what you could get) and (because of the random nature of slots) this number will vary based upon the number of spins played to arrive at the theoretical result.

As I have previously said and (32Red / Mark have echoed) from our experience MG do not offer different RTP settings for their games.
But the TRTP is supposedly supplied by the game provider. So should be EXACTLY the same on every site.

I think some of the discrepancies are down to VideoSlots rounding up the TRTP's of MG games to the nearest whole number. It's odd that none of the TRTP's have any decimal part

It's not going to matter too much with something like Immortal romance which is quoted at 32Red as 96.86% and VideoSlots as 97.0%
But when you've got Agent jane blonde quoted at 96.1% at 32Red and 97.0% at VideoSlots. That's almost a 1% difference.

I'm inclined to believe 32Red have the correct figures
 
I apologise - I i didn't realise you were switching between Theoretical and Actual in your statements. (Thanks also to Dan for confirming - my oversight).

So you're asking why TRTP is different at different sites, right?

Not wishing to imply anything, but perhaps a confirmation of what RTP & TRTP may help(?)

The Theoretical RTP is the expected return of the total money bet over an extended number (millions) of plays on the game and expressed as a percentage. Therefore, games with a theoretical RTP value of 98% indicates that 98% of the total money bet on the game is returned to players.

The Actual RTP is determined by way of periodic analysis of the game outcomes, also expressed as a percentage, to ensure that this remains close to the Theoretical RTP and an indicator that the game continues to function properly, randomly and fairly.

Due to the random nature of slots, and the variation in what measures are used for each result (e.g. # spins), these results can be different.

As I have previously said and (32Red / Mark have echoed) from our experience MG do not offer different RTP settings for their games.

;)
I usually mean a lot more than I say.
I was going to ask Mark to comment on this but just saw he already did. And what he said is .... well, lets say pretty close to what you said and what I was thinking when I started this thread.
Frankly, I don't know what is going on, only that it is not good.

By the way, yes I know very well what RTP and TRTP and variance and many other things are. But not everybody does so I welcome everybody that puts useful information in their posts. I also try to make mine as useful and simple as possible.
 
But the TRTP is supposedly supplied by the game provider. So should be EXACTLY the same on every site.

I think some of the discrepancies are down to VideoSlots rounding up the TRTP's of MG games to the nearest whole number. It's odd that none of the TRTP's have any decimal part

It's not going to matter too much with something like Immortal romance which is quoted at 32Red as 96.86% and VideoSlots as 97.0%
But when you've got Agent jane blonde quoted at 96.1% at 32Red and 97.0% at VideoSlots. That's almost a 1% difference.

I'm inclined to believe 32Red have the correct figures

Try 2% difference between sister sites (32Red group). Some numbers in 32Red group are as high as VS. Others are the same in all casinos, VS included.
 
Yes, I think the confusion on this thread is caused by the player being aware of the factory (TRTP) and then comparing game's performance at the casinos it's being monitored at which is sometimes displayed and the figure will inevitably be different to the TRTP. Over time, when the game has been played millions of spins the casino's 'live RTP' shouldn't be too dissimilar to the factory TRTP.

Mark has confirmed that I was correct in thinking that MG do NOT offer varying math models, but if you're seeing a game's RTP stats from a developer that does, then they will reflect (when it's been played enough over time) near enough the math model the casino has used.
 
Yes, I think the confusion on this thread is caused by the player being aware of the factory (TRTP) and then comparing game's performance at the casinos it's being monitored at which is sometimes displayed and the figure will inevitably be different to the TRTP. Over time, when the game has been played millions of spins the casino's 'live RTP' shouldn't be too dissimilar to the factory TRTP.

Mark has confirmed that I was correct in thinking that MG do NOT offer varying math models, but if you're seeing a game's RTP stats from a developer that does, then they will reflect (when it's been played enough over time) near enough the math model the casino has used.

And how many spins should be made in a slot with "jackpot" (highest winning combination) of 500x in order to get closer than 1% to the TRTP? Are 3 years enough for a casino as big as 32Red?
I think nobody asked MG so far, rules are not clear (UKGC doesn't specifically ask for TRTP) and so casinos just write a number.

Ok, I will make it simple.
I am asking Dan and Mark and every other rep for the TRTP (Theoretical RTP) in the following low variance slots:

1. Bikini Party
2. Dragon Dance
3. Wild Orient
4. Burning Desire
5. Gung Pow
6. Lucky Firecracker

The TRTP is one, is a "factory setting" as we say and from what I hear all reps should provide the same answer, the number MG gave them.
Actually, games 1, 2, 3 are clones and games 4, 5, 6 are clones, with the same paytable and all, so they should have the same TRTP, but that is up to MG.
Ok casino reps, what TRTP MG told you for those 6 slots?
 
Hi Nikantw,

Sorry for the delay in responding, thanks for the reminder.

With regards to your comment 'I think nobody asked MG so far', that's not really fair. All games released in the UK (and other territories) have to be certified and come with a eCOGRA certificate, that certification clearly states the TRTP. AFAIK, this certificate is available to all operators who provide MG games, there's no need to 'ask'.

The certificate provides the TRTP along with an 'eCOGRA recalculation' which is defined as 'eCOGRA recalculated the RTP percentage by performing additional independent mathematical calculations on the output of simulation game data', I've included both for the games you requested:

Dragon Dance / Bikini Party / Wild Orient:

TRTP Base Game: 96.52%
With Re-Spins: 97.49%
eCOGRA RTP Recalculation: 96.61%

Burning Desire

TRTP: 96.19%
eCOGRA RTP Recalculation: 97.49%

Lucky Firecracker / Gung Pow:

TRTP: 96.19%
eCOGRA RTP Recalculation: 96.49%

For the avoidance of doubt, 32Red publicise the base game TRTP provided by the game manufacturer. We try to keep this as accurate as possible and we've corrected those that were identified as incorrect.

I hope this helps.

Mark
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Meister Ratings

Back
Top