MG torny prize money

[shadow123]

I have been playing the all day tomb raider $5 torny today at 7 sultans and am currently in 1st place.

When I first entered the tornament and when I achieved !st place, the top prize money was $120.I just checked my position and the prize money has dropped to $90 with more positions paying prizes which does not seem fair as I played on the assumption that the top would be $120 and not change.
At $90 I would not have bothered playing as it costs $30 in entry and rebuys.

I may not keep the top position but would would like to know why the prize money dropped and if anyone else have seen this happen

 

[Roanan]

I have been playing the all day tomb raider $5 torny today at 7 sultans and am currently in 1st place.

When I first entered the tornament and when I achieved !st place, the top prize money was $120.I just checked my position and the prize money has dropped to $90 with more positions paying prizes which does not seem fair as I played on the assumption that the top would be $120 and not change.
At $90 I would not have bothered playing as it costs $30 in entry and rebuys.

I may not keep the top position but would would like to know why the prize money dropped and if anyone else have seen this happen

Any poker player will already know this answer.

Simply put, every single buy in, rebuy and continue are counted as a separate, single entry into the tournament.

Example: 1000 people buy in and then each rebuy once.
The system recognizes this as 2000 entries and will adjust the payouts accordingly.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Any poker player will already know this answer.

Simply put, every single buy in, rebuy and continue are counted as a separate, single entry into the tournament.

Example: 1000 people buy in and then each rebuy once.
The system recognizes this as 2000 entries and will adjust the payouts accordingly.

In poker, this would INCREASE the total prize pool, because the fees, minus rake, would be added in. With MGS though, 100% of the additional revenue goes as profit, or rake. This is like a poker tournament where a prize pool is guaranteed, and any extra entries and rebuys are charged rake at 100%.

The top prize goes down because the increased number of players increases the number of positions paid out, BUT because all this extra revenue is kept by MGS as 100% extra profit, the payouts FALL because they dont benefit from there being more players.

If you looked at the RTP of these tournaments, taking all the buy ins, continues, and rebuys, as the amount staked, and the prize pool as the amount paid out - you would be shocked!!!! The RTP of a normal slot is around 95%. The RTP of a "sit n go" is 90%, but the RTP of some of these tournaments can fall below 50% if there is an influx of players, and plenty of rebuys and continues. The fact that players can enter multiple times on different casino accounts further reduces the RTP. It is almost impossible to calculate the actual RTP of specific tournaments, since the necessary information is not shown on the scoreboards, and unlike the normal games, there is NO audited average payout reports for these tournaments. An oversight perhaps, or maybe they don't fancy the actual figures being seen by players. There has been more than enough time to engage an auditor to produce RTP reports for the tournaments, as has been done for the main lobby games.

 

[shadow123]

Thanks for the comments

The only problem with the each entry being separate idea is that when I hit the top spot, the prize money was $120 although I was not garranteed to retain the top spot (which I did).If they change the prize money throughout the torny you really dont know what you are playing for.
The number of player about doubled from when i hit top to the end of the torny.
Is it really fair for the number of player to double, prize money to stay the same and the top prize to decrease.

7 sultans have been VERY lucky for me,their CS is second to none and they are taking this issue seriously so it will be interesting to see what comes of it.

 

[Scooter7]

In poker, this would INCREASE the total prize pool, because the fees, minus rake, would be added in. With MGS though, 100% of the additional revenue goes as profit, or rake. This is like a poker tournament where a prize pool is guaranteed, and any extra entries and rebuys are charged rake at 100%.



...there is NO audited average payout reports for these tournaments. An oversight perhaps, or maybe they don't fancy the actual figures being seen by players.

The only reason they are getting away with it is because people continue to play them. If there was an appropriately raked alternative somewhere else, I believe their gravy-train would dry up.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The only reason they are getting away with it is because people continue to play them. If there was an appropriately raked alternative somewhere else, I believe their gravy-train would dry up.

The MGS tournaments SUPPOSEDLY had this option under development, but it was shelved. A fair model would be to have a prize pool that players KNEW increased as more entry fees were collected, and with a small initial guaranteed amount. The MGS tournaments ALREADY have a guaranteed cover because they get CANCELLED if too few players join before the start. MGS can therefore NEVER actually LOSE money on these if they set the minimum player limit to a number sufficient to cover the guaranteed prize pool. They should then keep 100% of the fees ONLY up to an amount needed to cover the guaranteed prizes, and the rake associated with this, and THEN, further entries, continues, rebuys should have only a rake deducted, with the remainder placed into the prize pool. This way, the top prizes would NEVER need to decrease, even though more players were joining. They could be INCREASED throughout the tournament, AND additional positions could be paid. Steadily increasing prizes would also stimulate additional participation, which in turn would further increase the prize pool. Under this model, there would be no problem at all having 1000 continues and 1000 rebuys as many tournaments do, since this would benefit players.


If another software implemented this model for slots, there would probably be a further migration away from MGS tournaments, and they would be FORCED to compete, or wither away.

 

[incrediblestuff]

i have also contacted support at several casinos, to inform them that on more then one gambling forum, people are not really happy with their current platform, as it makes microgaming look like either cheaters, or favoring idiotic players (to clarify: there are several personally observed instances where í've seen players collectively take all the big prizes, with the maximum rebuys, or at least continues, which after calculating, would have been a loss moneywise o.o)
now its hard to me to believe that players are so dumb, but of course it is possible: go wild casino, told me they have observed this as well and realize this is at the least costing alot of other players the fun feeling of a free tournament, and i commented, that i wanted to believe them, but regardless of my opinion, there is talk, and will continue to be talk about them rigging it (eg being that group of players themselves), so not only for the players, but for their own credibility, i'd advice them to make a new platform, where this is impossible (very easily done, either dont implement the rebuy or continue system, or make it free and leave the time limited)
and ive stated this also in another post, but this has been frustrating me for some time now...
luckily they promised that at least they were gonna do something about it, and so far they did, but only slightly in comparison to the bulk of tourneys..
but hey: it's a start.
maybe we as players could harass all our favourite mgs support teams, to ask them: hey! ive heard.... why dont you have that? etc.

 

[vinylweatherman]

i have also contacted support at several casinos, to inform them that on more then one gambling forum, people are not really happy with their current platform, as it makes microgaming look like either cheaters, or favoring idiotic players (to clarify: there are several personally observed instances where í've seen players collectively take all the big prizes, with the maximum rebuys, or at least continues, which after calculating, would have been a loss moneywise o.o)
now its hard to me to believe that players are so dumb, but of course it is possible: go wild casino, told me they have observed this as well and realize this is at the least costing alot of other players the fun feeling of a free tournament, and i commented, that i wanted to believe them, but regardless of my opinion, there is talk, and will continue to be talk about them rigging it (eg being that group of players themselves), so not only for the players, but for their own credibility, i'd advice them to make a new platform, where this is impossible (very easily done, either dont implement the rebuy or continue system, or make it free and leave the time limited)
and ive stated this also in another post, but this has been frustrating me for some time now...
luckily they promised that at least they were gonna do something about it, and so far they did, but only slightly in comparison to the bulk of tourneys..
but hey: it's a start.
maybe we as players could harass all our favourite mgs support teams, to ask them: hey! ive heard.... why dont you have that? etc.

When these came out there was no such thing as a "rebuy", only continues. Even continues had modest limits, 6 was the most I ever saw in those days.

Now it's a complete joke, with 999 rebuys and 999 continues being commonplace. Continues are the bigger problem, since you really can simply buy your way to the top by being prepared to use whatever number of continues you can get through in the time allowed. Players who do NOT want to spend the ENTIRE WEEK playing the same tournament 24/7 don't stand a chance where there is a small group of players doing this. WHY this group should do this, despite it being a -EV outcome, and an entire week of work, is puzzling, unless......

....we start thinking "bonus abuse" or even "fraud".

By being able to buy your way to the top, you can GUARANTEE that you will get the money. IF a group of players collude, they could use these tournaments to move money between casino accounts. Although bonus money itself CANNOT be used to pay tournament fees, any winnings CAN. Checks on players are ONLY made upon withdrawal.

A possible scenario, or how the obvious -EV is actually +EV, and possibly worth the trouble.

Sit n go - easy, 5 accounts buy in, but ensure that the winner is the account that withdrawals will work on. Money is generated in the others by "abusing" an SUB, and then pushing the winnings through sit n go tournaments to other accounts, rather than run the gauntlet of having the withdrawal denied because the entire balance was doubled by betting it all on Black on Roulette. Even when the winnings have been moved this way, the bonus remains, and another double up can be attempted. Eventually, this fails, and the account is ditched. The accounts receiving the money just "like playing sit n go tournaments", and in every respect are legit, perhaps to the point of never claiming a bonus, and having all the necessary documents verified.

Free tournaments - harder, because the money doesn't really move anywhere, and the winning account itself is already in a -EV situation. BUT, the practice drives away other players, and eventually COLLUDING players can ensure they ONLY invest what is required between them, by agreeing in real time which positions they will each take. They also agree to split the prize money evenly, so they do NOT have to compete with each other for a particular place, just ensure that as a whole they can get a regular +EV outcome. SOME free tournaments actually have pretty big top prizes, and are heavily weighted towards the top few positions. By colluding, a group of players could "take over" particular events, discourage others from challenging their dominance, and then milk a +EV situation. For as long as it works, they will keep on doing it.

There WILL be a small number of players who will do this for "honour", but surely not the same few, all the time, and all the same tournaments.

Do I win the Slotsmeister EVERY month? I do this for "honour" as it's usually -EV for me, and I COULD monopolise it EVERY month, but I don't, rather I try to be the "first to........", but then merely defend the record, not prevent others making lesser achievments. Currently, I am in "first to win 3 in a row" mode, done twice in a row already. This month is also "record breaking score" month, and maybe I WILL strive to be the first ever to hit 200 and whatever thousand points

 

[Jufo]

If you looked at the RTP of these tournaments, taking all the buy ins, continues, and rebuys, as the amount staked, and the prize pool as the amount paid out - you would be shocked!!!! The RTP of a normal slot is around 95%. The RTP of a "sit n go" is 90%, but the RTP of some of these tournaments can fall below 50% if there is an influx of players, and plenty of rebuys and continues. The fact that players can enter multiple times on different casino accounts further reduces the RTP. It is almost impossible to calculate the actual RTP of specific tournaments, since the necessary information is not shown on the scoreboards, and unlike the normal games, there is NO audited average payout reports for these tournaments. An oversight perhaps, or maybe they don't fancy the actual figures being seen by players. There has been more than enough time to engage an auditor to produce RTP reports for the tournaments, as has been done for the main lobby games.

Even though the general RTP may be low, it still doesn't mean that you can't play the tournaments profitably. Doing a re-buy is always a -EV move since you can always wait for a free entry for next tournament (exception would be the case where a re-buy is considerably cheaper than buy-in). Doing a continue is always +EV if you do it only with a good enough starting score. So MGS could actually making a loss on these tournaments if players only played smart but right now the EV goes down for everybody because people pay for re-buys / continues regardless.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Even though the general RTP may be low, it still doesn't mean that you can't play the tournaments profitably. Doing a re-buy is always a -EV move since you can always wait for a free entry for next tournament (exception would be the case where a re-buy is considerably cheaper than buy-in). Doing a continue is always +EV if you do it only with a good enough starting score. So MGS could actually making a loss on these tournaments if players only played smart but right now the EV goes down for everybody because people pay for re-buys / continues regardless.

Unfortunately, this will only stand a chance of working out if the prizes are decent, usually they are crap. The problem with Tomb raider tournaments in particular is the low variance of this slot, there are NO real opportunities to get a real big hit, unlike THunderstruck where wilds double the win, and the max non-jackpot line win is 750x, (1500x with wild), rather than the 500x, even WITH wild, found on Tomb Raider. TR also offers less return in the free spins, only 10 instead of 15, so less chance of even getting a decent line win during the 3x multipler free spins. The jackpot and 5 scatters is so rare on both that it can be excluded, but second highest line win with wild is common enough to occur occasionally in free spins. With Thunderstruck, 4 hammers (or shafts) with wild in free spins is a knockout blow, enough to win most tournaments, but with Tomb Raider, it's merely a decent advance, and you STILL need consistent returns and all the continues to ensure you hang on to the advantage.

 

[Jufo]

Unfortunately, this will only stand a chance of working out if the prizes are decent, usually they are crap. The problem with Tomb raider tournaments in particular is the low variance of this slot, there are NO real opportunities to get a real big hit, unlike THunderstruck where wilds double the win, and the max non-jackpot line win is 750x, (1500x with wild), rather than the 500x, even WITH wild, found on Tomb Raider. TR also offers less return in the free spins, only 10 instead of 15, so less chance of even getting a decent line win during the 3x multipler free spins. The jackpot and 5 scatters is so rare on both that it can be excluded, but second highest line win with wild is common enough to occur occasionally in free spins. With Thunderstruck, 4 hammers (or shafts) with wild in free spins is a knockout blow, enough to win most tournaments, but with Tomb Raider, it's merely a decent advance, and you STILL need consistent returns and all the continues to ensure you hang on to the advantage.

I don't know why are mentioning Tomb Raider specifically but when it was the game used at Weekenders (prior Aug 2008) I used to do quite well on it. The low variance actually helped you to estimate the range where your score will end up and whether it was profitable to pay 5 x 20$ for the continues given the (estimated) distribution of scores.

The point I was trying to make is that if people used some kind of reasoning when it is in their interest to pay for the continues / re-buys, then not only would they do better in terms of money staked / prizes won but it would also it decrease the level of competition for other players, therefore increasing the value of the tournament for everyone.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I don't know why are mentioning Tomb Raider specifically but when it was the game used at Weekenders (prior Aug 2008) I used to do quite well on it. The low variance actually helped you to estimate the range where your score will end up and whether it was profitable to pay 5 x 20$ for the continues given the (estimated) distribution of scores.

The point I was trying to make is that if people used some kind of reasoning when it is in their interest to pay for the continues / re-buys, then not only would they do better in terms of money staked / prizes won but it would also it decrease the level of competition for other players, therefore increasing the value of the tournament for everyone.

Well, in those days things WERE better. You COULD estimate the ranges, and whether it was worth continuing, not now, when 1000 continues means it's a case of not knowing whether others will simply buy their way past you to the top, however well you calculate things. The weekender is STILL fairly reasonable, even though it now has 5 rebuys, as well as continues, it at least not next to INFINITE goes.

I used to do pretty well in the old weekender, but there were NO rebuys, and you KNEW that everybody ONLY had their continues, and it was easy to estimate from the scores of others what chance you had. The tournament software used to play considerably FASTER then as well, even though it was subject to the usual glitches of being unable to get in, or getting booted.

 

[incrediblestuff]

yesyesyes!!!

this should be transferred to the meeting with microgaming thread!
:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy