Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating

[thelawnet]

I have now also run an experiment to test if the doubling at english harbour is fair. I have done the test in play money mode, Jacks and better single hand.

My results are: 37 wins, and 100 losses. According to my calculations this is almost an -5.4 standard deviation event if the game had been fair. The conclusion is the therefore the same as thelawnets':

The dubling feature at english harbour is not fair.

However, I have also done a similar experiment at fire and ice casino with a result of 55 wins and 59 losses, which of course is not unormal. My conclusion of from that experiment is therefore:

It has not been shown that the doubling feature at Ice and fire casino is not fair.

Is seems like different casinos using the same software can deal different games. It would be good if others would like to duplicate the experiments to try out different casinos using thje same software.

I agree.

I tried Hot Pepper (sister of Fire and Ice), and doing a very brief test, got 12 wins, 11 losses.

A very brief test on Millionare casino (in the English Harbour group), came up 9 wins, 17 losses.

So my belief is that the English Harbour group of casinos are all cheating, but non English Harbour casinos are likely not.

The group is

Apostle Casino
Casino Bleu Blanc Rouge
Caribbean Gold Casino
English Harbour Casino
Super Slots Casino
Millionaire Casino
Magic Lamp Casino
All Poker Casino
Silver Dollar Casino

 

[Simmo!]

Liquid, I have respected your posts for a long time but your posts to this thread border on insanity.

Be fair on the guy TLN, he later retracted his statement and admitted he doesn't believe himslef anymore. That deserves credit.

I know these are smallish samples, and I've always been a fan of large samples before seeing something as statistical proof, but I have to say this is looking decidedly spooky. I agree with whoever it was earlier - run it by Michael Shackleford at WizardOfOdds and get his opinion.

None of these small samples people have contributed are even close to 50/50.

Keep the samples coming...would suggest sticking to fun mode for now though. Will try myself later.

Simmo!

 

[realwtfsup]

Looked up Odds On software on Wizard of Odds site. This is right on top.

Disclaimer: Let it be known that I have served as a consultant to Odds On. This review attempts to be unbiased and mostly sticks to the game rules, odds, and strategy. While I feel comfortable there is no conflict of interest I think it is appropriate to disclose the relationship.

Odds On has a good selection of games, with many games unique to Odds On. The odds vary from stingy to competitive depending on the game. In general the games of skill tend to offer good odds (although blackjack is an exception) and games of luck are more tight.

Will see what he has to say about there software now. I am convinced they are a cheating software.

 

[dresden]

My 100-double trial results on play money at English Harbour:

W - 22
L - 64
T -14

 

[realwtfsup]

From the Wizardofodds blacklist is this.

All Elka System/Oyster Gaming casinos: After getting some anecdotal evidence that Netgaming.com was cheating in free play mode I gave them a try. In their single zero roulette game I placed 200 bets on red. My results were 133 wins and 67 losses. The probability of 133 or more wins in 200 spins is 1 in 3,788,515. So obviously they were letting me win. I blame the software for this and thus add all Elka/Oyster Gaming casinos to my blacklist

He only needed 200 bets to claim there software is cheating.

 

[realwtfsup]

My results

I played Dueces & Joker 4 play doubled once after every win

Loss 61
win 33
tie 6

 

[Casinomeister]

M. Shackleford is the auditor (or at least the one they use) for Oddson.
"Certified Fair Gambling Seal of Approval"

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

As far as I know, individual operators have no influence on any particular game's output or they way they function. And this is the first time that I remember anyone complaining about Oddson VP. I'll check on this in the next day or so. (it's a holiday weekend here).

 

[thelawnet]

M. Shackleford is the auditor (or at least the one they use) for Oddson.
"Certified Fair Gambling Seal of Approval"

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

As far as I know, individual operators have no influence on any particular game's output or they way they function. And this is the first time that I remember anyone complaining about Oddson VP. I'll check on this in the next day or so. (it's a holiday weekend here).

To clarify, it appears to be specifically limited to the English Harbour group rather than all OddsOn. I had no problems when I played last year, so it's possible the software was bad then but I did not notice it; otherwise, something has changed.

With regards to any audit, it would take hundreds of hours to actually audit every line of code and check that it is fair, and would be a major break on ay software upgrade plans. I would imagine that an audit is limited to the random number generator's ability to produce random number, and find it extremely improbable that he has actually audited the doublign code.

 

[Zoozie]

The so far small samples gives a clear indication of 'suspicious' doubling feature at one casino group using OddsOn software. However even if it is just one casino group and given there is cheating involved, the problem lies within the OddsOn software and all OddsOn casinos should be rogued since the software can be manipulated. And if it can be manipulated I would expect that the English Harbour group decide to 'unmanipulate' this very fast again. So we might be in a hurry to collect a large sample size.

It also comes to my mind that whenever such an accusation occours, people that feel cheated (or was unlucky) are much more likely to post these results than those who was luckier. However I find this case interesting as I myself (confirming my theory) really
feel cheated when doubling VP at English Harbour casino. So I never double anymore at any casino. (W=2 L=23 or something very close after I increased bet to 5$, dont know if bet size is important, it could be).

It is a very serious accusation so stay cool and let some experts investigate it and not
turn this into a witch hunt.




Zoozie

 

[thelawnet]

The so far small samples gives a clear indication of 'suspicious' doubling feature at one casino group using OddsOn software. However even if it is just one casino group and given there is cheating involved, the problem lies within the OddsOn software and all OddsOn casinos should be rogued since the software can be manipulated. And if it can be manipulated I would expect that the English Harbour group decide to 'unmanipulate' this very fast again. So we might be in a hurry to collect a large sample size.

It also comes to my mind that whenever such an accusation occours, people that feel cheated (or was unlucky) are much more likely to post these results than those who was luckier.

That is a good point, and you do get from time to time people saying that they lost 18 out of 20 hands at intercasino or whatever, and the point then is it probably is just a freak sample.

But here I have posted a sample, and people who have never played at the casino before and do not feel cheated because they have not given them any money, have posted their results, and they confirm what I said, which is that they are cheating.

 

[tennis_balls]

are you sure this is oddson software?

casinocity has these casinos listed as using software by Vegas Technology

Link Removed (invalid URL)

 

[spearmaster]

It's Vegas Technology - which is supposedly a new provider taking over from Odds On. Don't know if it's the same programmers behind it, but the platform is entirely new and you will not find any of the old Odds On games.

 

[sk2005]

That is not well said at all.

In many events, statistical proof can be obtained with a relatively small sample size.

For example say I run a coin-flip game. I rig it so that it's not 50/50, but instead its 49.9999/50.0001 in my favor. In this case someone will need a very large sample size to prove that the game is rigged.

Now say I rig it so that it is 20/80 in my favor. Now someone will need a very small sample to prove it's rigged. Something in the order of 50 tries should be more than enough.

In the case of the EH doubling game the statistical proof is overwhelming, especially when you factor in the results of other forum members who tested.

It is flat out impossible that this game represent an honest representation of a doubling game, and any mathematician will agree.

Actually, i was laughing at the idea that the only way to prove software cheating is to play 100.000 hands betting big (because ,theoretically, software should be rigged for the big bets in the first place) and lose a huge amount of money.

 

[sk2005]

Did anyone test Playtech's vp doubling feature? I am more than sure it is rigged for several months already.

 

[liquidsoap]

Ok Last time I am admitting I am wrong
Same results, as last 200 basically....
But I also noticed I did not win a double when I got a qualifying hand of 3 or a kind or better....
Serouisly Disregard my last posts didnt realize it was this bad
Sorry for my early posts
The most doubles in a row I won were 3
The most doubles in a row I lost were 13

Get the wizard of odds to get these guys
Sure it will take alot of trials, but he will find a way and it will go as expected.

Good job TLN :notworthy :notworthy

 

[oblomov]

It's Vegas Technology - which is supposedly a new provider taking over from Odds On. Don't know if it's the same programmers behind it, but the platform is entirely new and you will not find any of the old Odds On games.

According to Online Casino City ..."The company (oddson) produces the Vegas Technology brand of software."Link Removed (invalid URL)

Excellent thread Lawnet, thanks for your work.

Nice touch Dresden!

 

[Zoozie]

Did anyone test Playtech's vp doubling feature? I am more than sure it is rigged for several months already.

I tested playtech doubling (think it was at Prestige casino back when they were reliable..). I did over 500 doubles and the wins/looses was very close to 1 as expected. Actually I had more wins than looses.This is not a proff though, but I was satisfied. It was not as obvious skewed as the results posted so far in this thread.

It was very easy to test on Playtech because of the 'half double' feature. I
was playing real money and just half-doubled until I lost. I won 10 times in a row during that session actually (shame it was only 'half' doubles...).

BUT if it can be configured as seems the case with English Harbour, this means that you can not ask if the double feature is fair generally since it could change over time. Also bet size could matter. (higher bet= higher loose chance). Anyone with insight into the software can confirm there is no
standard configuration setting to chance this? If it can be configured, the
software is rouged, even though if casinos can claim they have it configured correct (fair).

Zoozie

 

[Simmo!]

Okay here's my "sample" of 200 doubles from English Harbour "Flash" version (Deuces & Joker VP) to add to the pot:

Sample: 200

Tied Hands: 20

Won Hands: 65

Lost Hands: 115



Simmo!

 

[gfkostas]

Okay here's my "sample" of 200 doubles from English Harbour "Flash" version (Deuces & Joker VP) to add to the pot:

Sample: 200

Tied Hands: 20

Won Hands: 65

Lost Hands: 115



Simmo!

Everyone keeps losing, this is going to get nasty

 

[tencardcharlie]

Won Hands: 65

Lost Hands: 115

A quick calculation tells me that there is slightly less than 0.01% chance to get such a bad result or worse.

Rogue 'em.

 

[nafanny29]

I couldnt resist either. Mine are:

Tie 19
Win 61
Lose 120

Not good at all. Always thought English Harbour were dodgy anyway before this.

 

[Zoozie]

Won Hands: 65

Lost Hands: 115

Thanks Simmo, though I have no comments to the results
It is good to have these data from a unquestionably reliable source.

Zoozie

 

[tennis_balls]

my little sample

i just did a 100 hand sample of the doubling feature using the 4 handed deuces wild on play money version of Caribbean Gold

Sample: 100

Ties: 5

Wins: 36

Losses: 59

also i noticed several instances where the program would suggest that I hold less than optimum cards. Once I got dealt a pair of deuces and the program suggested to hold a 7 as well. Another time I got dealt 4 to a deuces wild royal flush and the program suggested to hold all 5 cards for a straight.

 

[sk2005]

so, if my calculation is not wrong, the results of 13 members of this forum playing vp doubling game at Oddson's (or vegastechnology) casinos are:

wins 522
losses 1015

or , for every one win- two losses. Not exactly 50/50 game

 

[Macgyver]

I think (and it's just my own personal, subjective opinion) that people should be concentrating on English Harbour rather than the software provider.

If proof is obtained on English Harbour specifically, then move on to another casino that uses the same software and prove that the doubling there isn't 50/50.

Basically, let's stick to what the title of this thread says and not clutter it with other casinos who use the same software.

That may just be me, though ...