Markus VS TradaCasino (Viaden Gaming)

[Markus]

Hello,
TradaCasino (using Viaden Gaming software) had confiscated my deposits and my winnings of 1381 Euro by accusing me of being a cheater.

On 25th December 2011 I have made two deposits, first deposit was 20 Euro and second deposit was 50 Euro. On both deposits I got 100% bonus. First deposit I lost, but on the second deposit I won 1381 Euro. I have mostly played Blackjack Switch.

On 28th December 2011 I got this email from TradaCasino:

Dear Markus,

After close analysis of your bets history, we found out that when you were playing Blackack Switch - you were making bets of not equal amounts for different boxes, which is impossible without using an external tools, i.e. you were replacing amounts in client requests to the game server. This is clear cheat. Therefore, your account was closed and your winnings and deposits were confiscated. Once you decide to submit a complaint to Gambling Commission - please note: we will reveal to them all emails received from you and sent to you, bets history and any data they will request from us.

Best regards,
TradaCasino Support Team

Then I have answered that I have used my own self-programmed casino client to make these bets. Because I have not exploited any kind of software glitch I have rejected the accusation of being a cheater. Blackjack Switch is on the server side implemented in a way that it does allow unequal bet size amounts. It might be an implementation error, but it is definitely not a software glitch, because comparing two variables is too trivial that it could be a software glitch.

Also, I have not violated their Terms & Conditions, because they do not have any specific rule that forbids third-party casino clients. However, they have a very unspecific rule that they seem to apply to my case:

You will not utilise any prohibited device, software, spider, robot, routine or other method (or any other unit similar to the aforementioned) to prevent or attempt to interfere with the regular proper performance of the Website or Services;

It is very unspecific, because it does not define what "prohibited software" is. Is my casino client "prohibited software" or is it "allowed software"?

As an example, this is a specific rule from another casino:

You will place all wagers on Games through the various user interfaces provided on our site and you will not wager through other means, including the use of a "robot" player;

TradaCasino do not have a specific rule like this!

The server did accepted the bets I made, if these bets wasn't mean to be accepted, than the server should have refused the bets. I shouldn't be punished for the mistakes the casino or Viaden have made. The fact that I used my own casino client is irrelevant, because the client is replaceable and no specific rule forbid the usage of this third-party casino client. Furthermore in every other aspect, only what happens on the server is binding, this is another rule from TradaCasino Terms and Conditions:

In the event of any discrepancy between the outcome displayed on Your Device and Our server, the result indicated on Our server shall govern the result of the Services.

Suddenly when it comes to my case the client does matter?

I have risked my own funds, they can not confiscate my winnings just because of advantage play. They not even returned my deposits.

I have already contacted the Viaden rep (SlotMonster). Unfortunately after he got the casino's final reply he told me that he can't help me and he recommended to submit complaints to IBAS and the Gambling Commission of the Isle of Man, which is what I'm going to do very soon.

Any kind of comments or advices would be very much appreciated.

 

[SlotMonster]

Just a quick heads up: I'm aware of this thread and will reply tomorrow. Thank you!

 

[Nifty29]

You used your OWN version of the casino software to place bets that the REAL software doesn't allow, and you don't think that's CHEATING?

Honestly, what planet are you on? Every casino on the web has rules against that kind of thing, and the rule you quoted from Viaden certainly covers what you did as you were using an obviously prohibited device/software.....and you know it. Anyone who has been around more than five minutes knows its prohibited....it doesn't have to be specifically described. It's like seeing a "No Running" sign and then running, and then claiming when caught that you were actually "jogging quickly which isn't running".

I have to say that this kind of stunt pulled by players just ends up hurting the average player and players who do it should be banned from here. Bet levels are set by the operator and it is their right to do so....they did NOT offer the bets that the OP was making in the REAL software client, so they are NOT liable for paying those bets. Most people would just play elsewhere if they didn't like the bets on offer,but there's always some like the OP who think the rules don't apply to them so they alter the casinos own software to create an advantage over not just the casino but other players.....and THAT, my friends, is CHEATING.

The OP seems to be having more issues with casinos then the average person.....I wonder if this isn't the first time they have used this software alteration cheat? It puts a whole new spin on why Betfair may have charged back your winnings.......after all you refused to discuss any kind of detail about what "advantage play" you employed and you did not deny that you used a bot/software when challenged by another (seemingly well-informed since their question was completely out of the blue) member.

*P.S.*

I see you conveniently neglected to mention this term immediately above the one you quoted:

You will not make any attempts to decompile, modify, reverse-engineer or disassemble the Services or the Website;

Ummm I think that's what they call "game set and match".....

 

[Markus]

@Nifty29:
First of all, I have not altered anything. The casino client I have used is 100% my own work. I have not decompiled, modified, adapted or derived their official casino client in any way or form. Therefore I have not violated this term:

You will not make any attempts to decompile, modify, reverse-engineer or disassemble the Services or the Website;

The relevant part from their software, i.e. the casino server, does allowed the bets I have made! Only their casino client does not contain the functionality to place the bets I have made. As I have already explained, in every other aspect, only what happens on the server is binding, why should it be different here? The player has the right to use every software he wants to use, as long he do not violates the Terms & Conditions.

Can you explain to me, why my casino client is "obviously prohibited"? Why do they not add a rule like "all external software is no allowed"? Thus there must be external software that is allowed. But they do not define what software is allowed and what not.

Again, it is not cheating, because I have just played the game in the best possible way the casino server offered it to me. There was no software glitch.

The Betfair thing is a different story, and also I have not violated any rule from Betfair's Terms & Conditions.

 

[Mousey]

their casino client does not contain the functionality to place the bets I have made

No? Right then.... You manipulated their software.

Markus, I think you know better, and splitting hairs over semantics doesn't change anything.

 

[Markus]

No? Right then.... You manipulated their software.

I have manipulated nothing! If Software A does not support Feature X, how do I manipulate Software A if I only use Software B that supports Feature X?

Markus, I think you know better, and splitting hairs over semantics doesn't change anything.

It's not splitting hairs over semantics, I'm only presenting facts.

 

[Nifty29]

@Nifty29:
First of all, I have not altered anything. The casino client I have used is 100% my own work. I have not decompiled, modified, adapted or derived their official casino client in any way or form. Therefore I have not violated this term:


The relevant part from their software, i.e. the casino server, does allowed the bets I have made! Only their casino client does not contain the functionality to place the bets I have made. As I have already explained, in every other aspect, only what happens on the server is binding, why should it be different here? The player has the right to use every software he wants to use, as long he do not violates the Terms & Conditions.

Can you explain to me, why my casino client is "obviously prohibited"? Why do they not add a rule like "all external software is no allowed"? Thus there must be external software that is allowed. But they do not define what software is allowed and what not.

Again, it is not cheating, because I have just played the game in the best possible way the casino server offered it to me. There was no software glitch.

The Betfair thing is a different story, and also I have not violated any rule from Betfair's Terms & Conditions.

You just don't get it. Maybe you've been cheating like this for so long you've convinced yourself its normal.

The REAL software does NOT allow you to place the bets that you did. The REAL software represents what the casino is willing to accept in terms of a bet. You decided that it didn't suit you, so you made your OWN software so that you could submit whatever bet YOU wanted to. The fact that the server accepted it is irrelevant.

If you did the same thing in slots, for example, and submitted bets of $50 per spin when the REAL software allows a $10 max bet, do you think that's ok too? Of course the server is going to accept the bet, because you have bypassed the restrictions of the REAL software.

The server I.e. the casino did not OFFER you this method of play,...YOU CREATED IT. If the REAL casino doesn't allow it, then the CASINO doesn't OFFER it. What you should have said was " because I have just played the game in the best possible way the casino server was manipulated into offering to me."

What you did was change the rules of a game using your own software client. It's CHEATING. OMG I can't believe I'm wasting my time actually explaining it....you're a smart guy and you knew EXACTLY what you were doing.

People like you who pull crap like this and cause the average player to have to jump through hoops to get paid make me

Like I said, I hope you get banned.

 

[Markus]

Nifty29, it seems that you have a wrong understanding about what I was doing.

You think I can submit whatever bet I want, but this is absolutely not true. I can only submit bets which the casino server accepts. No casino software provider is that insane that he would blindly trust the client! All bets from the client gets validated, then the server (not the client!) picks a random number and then the server calculates the result of the bet which is sent back to the client. It is an industry standard!

The only reason why I was able to make these bets was, because the casino or Viaden misconfigured the game (obviously by mistake, I don't think they did it on purpose). Again, I have not manipulated anything, I have just used my own client.

Imagine this:
A casino offers a roulette game where a single number pays 38x instead of 36x. On a single-zero roulette game this would result in a player edge. Now a player plays this game and wins. Then the casino says to the player: "Sorry, we have misconfigured this game and now we confiscate your winnings, even though you have risked your own funds." This wouldn't be fair, would it?

It is the casino's responsibility that all games are correctly configured. The fact that I used my own casino client is irrelevant, because the client is replaceable and no specific rule forbid the usage of this third-party casino client.

 

[LaHutti]

Sounds to me, that you made this third party software, hoping the server was going to accept bets, that the original software didn't offer.
Why else would you even consider using your own software ?
Furthermore, it sems like that's what you do....try to find loopholes in the casino software, or tweak it to your advantage.
If I was a casino owner, you would be banned immediately, as you most certainly do not play for entertainment, but use every way possible, and preferably at least bordering illegal or unfair play, to squeeze money out of them.
I have to agree with Nifty on this one.

 

[jstrike]

I just had a player who was clearly using a Blackjack bot to clear bonuses. It had to be custom built, because we have custom software. It's mildly amusing that someone would spend that much time to make a few hundred bucks. We don't prohibit bots in our TOS, but we do ban the use of irregular betting patterns during bonus play. This guy was playing 10-14 hours a day, 10¢ a hand, to clear a 200% bonus. I went in to chat with him personally, and he couldn't respond. When I froze his account, he wrote within an hour and said he wasn't a robot, he saw the chat but his "keyboard malfunctioned", and he'd ditched Farmville since he discovered my site. Right. I turned his account back on, let his bot clear 98.8% RTP, and cashed him out for 250% of his deposit. Because it's not in our TOS that bots are banned. But he's banned, now that he's been paid.

But it is in our TOS that players cannot alter the client software. And also that software bugs will not be paid. Our software checks every bet against the table max; to not do so is clearly a bug on Viaden's part. But if there was a gray area there, it disappeared the second the OP decided to screw with the client to get his bets in. There's advantage play, and there's taking advantage of a bug. OP found and exploited a bug. Not a bug that was available through the client, but one that he had to hack the site to discover. We offer a bounty for the first player to discover a bug like that, but we make it clear that if it isn't reported, everything will be confiscated. We'd never pay him out if he pulled a stunt that. He'd be lucky if we gave back his initial deposit. Personally I think it's a waste of talent. Professionally, if they'd caught him in Vegas doing that stuff in the '70s, he would have had his legs broken, and he should be thanking his lucky stars he walked out of the casino a whole man.

 

[Markus]

Sounds to me, that you made this third party software, hoping the server was going to accept bets, that the original software didn't offer.
Why else would you even consider using your own software ?
Furthermore, it sems like that's what you do....try to find loopholes in the casino software, or tweak it to your advantage.

I often use my own casino client rather than the official casino client to have more features available, like making special bet sizes or playing games that are not available in the casino (on the client side). I don't see how it's wrong to use a casino client that it is just individually adapted to the players needs.

If I was a casino owner, you would be banned immediately, as you most certainly do not play for entertainment, but use every way possible, and preferably at least bordering illegal or unfair play, to squeeze money out of them.
I have to agree with Nifty on this one.

Yes, I'm an advantage player, but nowadays many players are advantages players. Advantage play can not be a reason to confiscate winnings.

 

[jod5413]

Markus, no matter what spin you want to put on what you did, you are cheating! Plain and simple. Bryan will hopefully come along and read this and ban your butt. People like you are a big reason that the rest of us don't get what we should in the way of comps. We pay for your cheating.

 

[IanO]

I get the point you're making Markus, but I'm with Nifty and co. on this one.

Imagine the guy who owns the car in the attached picture saying:
''I did not modify the car. It's the exact car as bought from the showroom!!! I simply added my own set of wings to facilitate easier flying''

 

[jstrike]

Markus -

this might seem unimportant, but as a software/casino owner I can tell you it would make a difference to me. Do you actually use a complete, separate client? Or are you using firebug or some packet sniffer to read and change the data?

And if you use a separate client, did you write it? Or did it come from somewhere else? It's hard to imagine how "other games" could be available through your own client that aren't available on a Viaden casino, or what bets you'd be able to place that the server wouldn't want you to place. Again, sounds like a bug on the server side not to be validating your bets, but without knowing exactly what you did to place them that way it would be hard to say whose fault this really is. Was it just a matter of changing the bet amount in a POST call? Or did you do something to trick the server into thinking you had a higher betting limit?

 

[Markus]

But it is in our TOS that players cannot alter the client software.

Again, I have not altered the official client software.

OP found and exploited a bug.

It is not a bug in the sense of a software glitch. Nobody can tell me that they have implemented a comparison of these two variables, where this comparison fails, it's just to trivial. No, they have simply forgot to implement it, therefore it is an implementation error. Sure, it was propably not thier intention, but the fact is, they have implemented the game in a way that it gives the player a edge, if a player uses that edge he is clearly not cheating.

 

[Markus]

this might seem unimportant, but as a software/casino owner I can tell you it would make a difference to me. Do you actually use a complete, separate client? Or are you using firebug or some packet sniffer to read and change the data?

Yes, it is a complete, separate client. I use this client for other casino software as well. I just added the Viaden protocol to it. I have not used some tool like firebug.

And if you use a separate client, did you write it? Or did it come from somewhere else? It's hard to imagine how "other games" could be available through your own client that aren't available on a Viaden casino, or what bets you'd be able to place that the server wouldn't want you to place. Again, sounds like a bug on the server side not to be validating your bets, but without knowing exactly what you did to place them that way it would be hard to say whose fault this really is. Was it just a matter of changing the bet amount in a POST call? Or did you do something to trick the server into thinking you had a higher betting limit?

I wrote the client. With "other games" I mean, that sometimes a casino has a single game not licensed form the software providers game portfolio. Therefore normally the player would not be able to play this game. However, in most cases the game is only missing on the client side but the server side still accepts bets for this game. In this way I can play games in a casino that are normally not available.

I have not done something to trick the server, I have just submitted the bet in the same way the official client does, except the two bet amounts were different.

 

[Larsenne]

Why?

Dear Members.

Forgive me for being naive, but why on earth use another software playing online casino if you will play fair? I agree with Nifty29 here, with all this going on, no wonder casinos withdrawal times increase to check that bets are made right.
If this is going on in broad front, this will have effect on all players online.

L'arsenne

 

[Markus]

Forgive me for being naive, but why on earth use another software playing online casino if you will play fair?

As I have already explained, I like to use features and functionalities that are not available in an official client. I always play fair and I have played fair at TradaCasino, because I have not manipulated anything, I have just played the game in the best possible way the casino server offered it to me.

 

[jstrike]

However, in most cases the game is only missing on the client side but the server side still accepts bets for this game.

First of all, this means you must have reproduced, or decompiled the Viaden client. You couldn't just use some Microgaming client, make a few tweaks and be playing games that a Viaden casino didn't want you to play.

Secondly, they didn't want you to play those games. That's why they weren't available in the client. This is like if you were in Vegas, walked up to a closed blackjack table with your own deck of cards, put down $2000 and dealt yourself a blackjack. And now you're complaining because the table was there?

The table was closed. You wasted your time.

 

[Markus]

First of all, this means you must have reproduced, or decompiled the Viaden client. You couldn't just use some Microgaming client, make a few tweaks and be playing games that a Viaden casino didn't want you to play.

Secondly, they didn't want you to play those games. That's why they weren't available in the client. This is like if you were in Vegas, walked up to a closed blackjack table with your own deck of cards, put down $2000 and dealt yourself a blackjack. And now you're complaining because the table was there?

The table was closed. You wasted your time.

You misunderstand me, this has nothing to do with this case. I have only mentioned the possibility of playing games not available in a casino as one of different reasons why I often use my own casino client.

The game Blackjack Switch was available at TradaCasino. I have not played a non-available game at TradaCasino!

 

[rainmaker]

You misunderstand me, this has nothing to do with this case. I have only mentioned the possibility of playing games not available in a casino as one of different reasons why I often use my own casino client.

The game Blackjack Switch was available at TradaCasino. I have not played a non-available game at TradaCasino!

It would be interesting if you could tell us some casinos where you are actually doing this?

 

[Markus]

It would be interesting if you could tell us some casinos where you are actually doing this?

Different Playtech casinos.

 

[rainmaker]

Different Playtech casinos.

Thanks for your reply, at least you are honest about this.

Is Playtech the only supplier who has this "opening" in their server?

What about bet sizes. I mean, different casinos have different bet sizes. For example, max bet on the slot game Great Blue can be EUR 5 in one casino and EUR 100 in another casino. If you are playing at a casino that does not offer Great Blue, what kind of a bet size do you get when "visiting" the server?

 

[Markus]

Thanks for your reply, at least you are honest about this.

Is Playtech the only supplier who has this "opening" in their server?

What about bet sizes. I mean, different casinos have different bet sizes. For example, max bet on the slot game Great Blue can be EUR 5 in one casino and EUR 100 in another casino. If you are playing at a casino that does not offer Great Blue, what kind of a bet size do you get when "visiting" the server?

If you really need to know this, I can tell you via PM. I would appreciate it, if we could stay on topic in this thread.

 

[jstrike]

There are plenty casinos with holes in their code. It's pretty much rampant. That doesn't mean it's ok to exploit...

@ Markus, did you ever think maybe you should spend your time building your own casino instead of trying to hack one for a very small amount of money?