Lost the wow factor

dogshead1

Acting like a jerk - flaming
PABnonaccred
Joined
May 31, 2016
Location
United Kingdom
Well I'd taken a break from online slots for three weeks. Was fed up of egg timer deposits, extremely low RTP on sessions and feature payouts that would make you wanna spew.

TBH the fun went out of online slotting for me roughly 3 months ago. My last big cash was about March/April time and even that was no fun. Was a good hit but that was all. As soon as I turned to other slots I just saw my balance rapidly decline again. Yes we all know slots are totally random but lets say you have a few hundred quid balance and reduce your bet sizes to micro - to medium sized bets, one would think or expect a better/longer session and at some point an upward spike in your RTP taking you above or slightly below profit for that game or even break even. More often that not you are going to lose and its obviously always wise to walk away when your ahead.

Play as of late tho IMO seems more of a lottery. You choose your website you log in deposit and either pre determined a winning day or immediate loss.
 

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Yep the wow factor is gone. It's more like a war of attrition nowadays :mad:

Of course nothing beats that ascent when the games are playing well....but when did that last happen? It's become too reliant on getting miraculous wonder-hits just to keep afloat. Where's the fun to be had in losing 75% of your bankroll only to get 50% of it back :confused:

I used to remember having actual sessions with ample playtime...what happened? :mad::mad:
 

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
See? It is possible to have a sensible discussion without mentioning that slots are rigged!

Oh

wait :oops::oops:
 

Nicola

Closed Account
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Location
Malta
Certainly noticed a difference with NetEnt slots over the past couple of months. It's hard enough getting a bonus but when you do it pays hardly anything.

Microgaming on the other hand, I'm 7 or 8 sessions in profit playing Immortal Romance :eek:
 

dogshead1

Acting like a jerk - flaming
PABnonaccred
Joined
May 31, 2016
Location
United Kingdom
See? It is possible to have a sensible discussion without mentioning that slots are rigged!

Oh

wait :oops::oops:

Not one person in this discussion had suggested they are rigged. However whilst you bring it up. Any Random number generator is an algorithm designed to Randomise the win/lose variable in any given result being slots, online roulette, blackjack etc. It's a human designed code written into the computers mainframe and that code my friend is a reference for the software when determining the end result. Could that with the fact the a slot provider has to be profitable hence why they created the damn things then of course it's all rigged. Can also be easily altered or re written too. After all you don't want an RNG thats is going to cripple your business do you?

Theoretically it's designed to Return to any given player a set percentage in the long term. Who's to say how this is governed. Knobody has really questioned this. Online slots have min bets as low as 1p per line and max of £100 plus. On maximum bet potential wins could be in the £100,000s.
So the real question here is are they designing their RTP over that later figure? If so then the majority of us are all fucked and the bigger player with larger bankrolls are laughing all day long no?
 

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Haven't dabbled in Netent for so long, bar the odd DOA punt or Reel Steal cockup.

Microgaming does its best to raise my hope more often than not before smashing it against a wall in a very predictable manner.

Would love to try a different supplier (Playtech doesn't count) but haven't dared to venture outside the big two. Perhaps Play 'n' Go, Quickspin? Any good ones out there?
 

geordiecolin

Meister Member
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm4
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Location
Near Newcastle
I have had a fantastic year so far slotting until about 10 days ago. Now I can't hit a thing and deposit after deposit have very quickly gone to nothing. So I have removed every penny from my slotting account and I have put myself on a strict budget to make sure I don't give it all back
 

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Not one person in this discussion had suggested they are rigged. However whilst you bring it up. Any Random number generator is an algorithm designed to Randomise the win/lose variable in any given result being slots, online roulette, blackjack etc. It's a human designed code written into the computers mainframe and that code my friend is a reference for the software when determining the end result. Could that with the fact the a slot provider has to be profitable hence why they created the damn things then of course it's all rigged. Can also be easily altered or re written too. After all you don't want an RNG thats is going to cripple your business do you?

Theoretically it's designed to Return to any given player a set percentage in the long term. Who's to say how this is governed. Knobody has really questioned this. Online slots have min bets as low as 1p per line and max of £100 plus. On maximum bet potential wins could be in the £100,000s.
So the real question here is are they designing their RTP over that later figure? If so then the majority of us are all fucked and the bigger player with larger bankrolls are laughing all day long no?

First part yes, second part nope. It's been pointed out before somewhere that how bigger bets take a massive nosedive in RTP, almost as if by a miracle.

Or else we'd all re-mortgage our houses, sell the car, put the living room on Ebay and take a few hundred spins on DOA, Bonananza and the rest. There has to be some safeguards in the programming but to what extent is ultimately just sheer conjecture....
 

lotusch

A little mix of Dutch and Irish
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Location
Dún Dealgan
Certainly noticed a difference with NetEnt slots over the past couple of months. It's hard enough getting a bonus but when you do it pays hardly anything.

Microgaming on the other hand, I'm 7 or 8 sessions in profit playing Immortal Romance :eek:

Haha Nicola,that is odd.
I feel exactly the opposite.

I have made some good profit last 2 weeks on mostly Netent slots.
Playing them around €2.00 a spin and came out in good profit on Frankenstein, Egg O Matic, Gonzo's Quest (Got a 5 scatter FS for 380x), Lost Island, Muse, Flowers winter Edition...Made at least 2k profit on these last week.
On the other hand MGS is taking the piss. Can't hit anything.
Got 3 Wild Romance feature on IR this week and all 3 times only 1 wild reel with 2x a 0 pay.
But the worst must be Playboy, flushed 6k spins through this week and managed an RTP% of 82% over multiple sessions.
Last 10 free spins paid all less than 15x on the 15 spins with adding wilds, no wilds to be seen anywhere. :(
Brutal.

So I am seriously thinking of quitting to play MGS slots as they used to be my lucky slots but as of late I spit on them..
0 pay, 0 amusement and tons of dead spins.

Ok,I play the higher volatile ones but still.... :mad:

Had great playtime on Netent and WMS and even Play n Go.
Also had a few good hits on Merkur slots.

MGS and also Thunderkick and Red Tiger Gaming are a no go for me, brutal bad paying slots for me.
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Not one person in this discussion had suggested they are rigged. However whilst you bring it up. Any Random number generator is an algorithm designed to Randomise the win/lose variable in any given result being slots, online roulette, blackjack etc. It's a human designed code written into the computers mainframe and that code my friend is a reference for the software when determining the end result. Could that with the fact the a slot provider has to be profitable hence why they created the damn things then of course it's all rigged. Can also be easily altered or re written too. After all you don't want an RNG thats is going to cripple your business do you?

Theoretically it's designed to Return to any given player a set percentage in the long term. Who's to say how this is governed. Knobody has really questioned this. Online slots have min bets as low as 1p per line and max of £100 plus. On maximum bet potential wins could be in the £100,000s.
So the real question here is are they designing their RTP over that later figure? If so then the majority of us are all fucked and the bigger player with larger bankrolls are laughing all day long no?

An RNG is a random number generator that gives random numbers. They neither cripple not determine the successful of the game. The maths of the game - i.e what the random numbers are used for - determine its success. A shit game won't make money. A good game will. But they will all, over time, hit the RTP they were designed for. That's where the casinos and developers make their money.

They don't care who plays the game. Hence the very idea of compensated or rigged games makes no sense... They don't care if dunover loses 200 and LockInLove makes 190 profit. They still made 10 quid.

Your second point makes no sense...everybody, especially on certain threads in here, has question the governance, fairness and such and I've done my best to answer. And maths is designed with total ignorance to stake. The RTP is stake independent as is the behaviour of the game. Most companies track RTP by stake, as one person playing at 500 quid a spin can massive skew the overall RTP.

Oh and you said:
"Play as of late tho IMO seems more of a lottery. You choose your website you log in deposit and either pre determined a winning day or immediate loss."
I think most of us would read that as you saying they are rigged :)
 

mathsboy1975

Senior Member
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
UK London
Certainly noticed a difference with NetEnt slots over the past couple of months. It's hard enough getting a bonus but when you do it pays hardly anything.

Microgaming on the other hand, I'm 7 or 8 sessions in profit playing Immortal Romance :eek:

I have to say the reverse for me with NetEnt. I took a long break from playing (self exluded from all but a handful of outfits these days) and risked opening up an account with a new UKGC licensed but Casinomeister uncredited casino - about a month ago. I dropped £100 in built it up to 200, started playing JATB and dropped a 1000-1 payout in the bonus round. Then upped the stake considerably (maxed at playing £20 a spin) for Deveils delight dropped an £8K bonus round.
Basically I could not lose whatever game I played.
Been here before about 3 times in the past and put the lot back in (usually while playing under the influence of a few drinke) but that experience made me wiser and harder so I eventually saw £12K in my account and withdrew it. I withdrew over several transactions and was basically sh*tting myself about not getting paid due to the uncredited Casinomeister issue (not that it is deemed rogue - it is just nowhere on the radar here as far as I can tell) but they paid up every penny.

The OP issue was the reason I self excluded from most places about 18 months ago. The fun was gone. I only opened up this account from sheer boredom. I was grateful for the win and after it was all in my account I made a deposit at another place playing MG games - and again the fun was gone (I have to say that after a long break, coming back to it made me realise how dull MG games are now. I actually enjoyed the NetEnt experience but can't say in honesty if it was related to the winning or the playing).

I will probably remain an occasional player though. Deep down I love a bet but as mentioned by OP, slots can be relentless if your luck is out.
 

Mouche12

Kitty Lover
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Location
Amsterdam
Haven't dabbled in Netent for so long, bar the odd DOA punt or Reel Steal cockup.

Microgaming does its best to raise my hope more often than not before smashing it against a wall in a very predictable manner.

Would love to try a different supplier (Playtech doesn't count) but haven't dared to venture outside the big two. Perhaps Play 'n' Go, Quickspin? Any good ones out there?

Why not Playtech at Videoslots? I was thinking myself to give these a try, see if it will result in an improvement of my playtime there - it can't be worse than Bonanza? I appreciate you may want to avoid Playtech casinos for the most part.
 

rena35

Meister Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Location
cyber space
I lost the WOW factor a few months back when it became clear i would only win enough to buy dinner at an all you can eat place :D. Been gaming for about 8 years now and have never made a profit, just a little over my start balance sometimes. Tried different software, used to get mad but now i try to garner what enjoyment i can before, during and after work. Some people have had sessions where they can't lose, i am sure it will happen to me one day. For now i just sit back and play without the stress of the WOW :D.
 

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Why not Playtech at Videoslots? I was thinking myself to give these a try, see if it will result in an improvement of my playtime there - it can't be worse than Bonanza? I appreciate you may want to avoid Playtech casinos for the most part.


I like the software, they're just terrible for playtime :thumbsup:
 

TheAddict

Ueber Meister
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Location
Kent
An RNG is a random number generator that gives random numbers. They neither cripple not determine the successful of the game. The maths of the game - i.e what the random numbers are used for - determine its success. A shit game won't make money. A good game will. But they will all, over time, hit the RTP they were designed for. That's where the casinos and developers make their money.

They don't care who plays the game. Hence the very idea of compensated or rigged games makes no sense... They don't care if dunover loses 200 and LockInLove makes 190 profit. They still made 10 quid.

Your second point makes no sense...everybody, especially on certain threads in here, has question the governance, fairness and such and I've done my best to answer. And maths is designed with total ignorance to stake. The RTP is stake independent as is the behaviour of the game. Most companies track RTP by stake, as one person playing at 500 quid a spin can massive skew the overall RTP.

Oh and you said:
"Play as of late tho IMO seems more of a lottery. You choose your website you log in deposit and either pre determined a winning day or immediate loss."
I think most of us would read that as you saying they are rigged :)

What with the turnover of players on this site, there will always be new people with the same questions. I fear for you if you spend the next 10 years replying here, it may well result in perhaps your later years having been confined to a mental institution to be left alone sitting in a corner rolling some dice. The only question then will be between the carers; "that dude ok?, he keeps rolling and saying random everytime a number appears". "don't worry, he is calm atm. Its only when he gets out his bag of marbles and starts shouting that wierd are tee pee shit that you need to run like a mother f¥#%$r before they are launched everywhere".
 
Last edited:

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
What with the turnover of players on this site, there will always be new people with the same questions. I fear for you if you spend the next 10 years replying here, it may well result in perhaps your later years having been confined to a mental institution to be left alone sitting in a corner rolling some dice. The only question then will be between the carers; "that dude ok?, he keeps rolling and saying random everytime a number appears". "don't worry, he is calm atm. Its only when he gets out his bag of marbles and starts shouting that wierd are tee pee shit that you need to run like a mother f¥#%$r before they are launched everywhere".

:laugh::laugh:

Classic :thumbsup:
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
What with the turnover of players on this site, there will always be new people with the same questions. I fear for you if you spend the next 10 years replying here, it may well result in perhaps your later years having been confined to a mental institution to be left alone sitting in a corner rolling some dice. The only question then will be between the carers; "that dude ok?, he keeps rolling and saying random everytime a number appears". "don't worry, he is calm atm. Its only when he gets out his bag of marbles and starts shouting that wierd are tee pee shit that you need to run like a mother f¥#%$r before they are launched everywhere".

I don't mind replying.. especially if I can add anything not already covered. Probably better me going to the MeisterMeet though. And yeah... Some people can never be convinced and thats cool... Even I sometimes think my own game has switched to "take mode" - but of course I know it's random. No one outside of my team has that proof!
 

theapple

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Location
far far away
Your second point makes no sense...everybody, especially on certain threads in here, has question the governance, fairness and such and I've done my best to answer. And maths is designed with total ignorance to stake. The RTP is stake independent as is the behaviour of the game. Most companies track RTP by stake, as one person playing at 500 quid a spin can massive skew the overall RTP.

you keep on repeating that answer in just about every topic and while i respect that it does make you wonder... how come there are no losing slots? How come we havent seen any slot developers studios close down, or even properly run casinos when its entirely possible (is it?) to have slot that will have 900% yearly rtp and depending on stakes, just that one slot would be enough to force smaller/fresh casino into bankruptcy.

If its not arbitrary RNG and if its "totally random within the 95% rtp or whatever" how come there are no slots that have -140% rtp over the course of several months/years and yet there are dozens that are 96% or so that have 70% - 90% rtp?

Also, regardless of your repeated response i dont buy how stakes dont affect RTP and how someone betting $400 per spin and winning 4.000.000 wouldnt affect other players rtp, because if thats true and said player quits while he is 4 millions ahead, that slot would have negative rtp (publishers wise) for the rest of its life and im sure slots devs have protected them against such a thing happening.

To add to my point, if slot keeps on its "factory" RTP of 96% then it would take years for that slot to recover from 4 millions $ hit if players keep on playing regular sized bets.

I know its all speculation but we can only blame slot devs for it because they are ignoring everything else other than saying RTP is 99,9% and thats about it. Most dont say how is that RTP distributed, or more important how does one get to that rtp to begin with. This industry needs more transparency and thats rather obvious now.

I honestly dont think slots have strayed that far away from old coins machines and its still based on amount of money that enters the slot, but its done in much less obvious way.

Lets say its based on $1.000.000 batches, so 1m enters the slot this month and $900.000 is paid out. That means over the course of that single batch slot had 90% RTP, which can be distributed further through next batch(es) so next batch could theoreticaly have rtp of 98% while still keeping its 96% factory rtp. Now as i said its done in much less obvious matter so next $1 million batch could have rtp of 80% ($800.000 out 1.000.000 in) leaving the slot in over $300.000 under factory RTP which for all we know could be distributed in just 2 single spins of $150.000.

The way i see it would be much easier to "control" slots while still keeping decent amount of randomness involved, and yet no casino/developers can lose in this situation.

Saying slots dont care if your bet is $0,10 or $1000 is kinda contradictory when you keep on saying how slots have lifetime, factory RTP of 96%.
How on earth does slot know how to get to 96% rtp if it doesnt include stakes placed ? If we go that way, saying how stakes dont matter in that case slots could still have 96% RTP while being $1,428,991.299 in minus and as i said im yet to hear about developers/casinos retiring a slot because it wasnt profitable (and with stakes not included in RTP calculation, there defeinitely should be some slots that are not profitable).
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
you keep on repeating that answer in just about every topic and while i respect that it does make you wonder... how come there are no losing slots? How come we havent seen any slot developers studios close down, or even properly run casinos when its entirely possible (is it?) to have slot that will have 900% yearly rtp and depending on stakes, just that one slot would be enough to force smaller/fresh casino into bankruptcy.

If its not arbitrary RNG and if its "totally random within the 95% rtp or whatever" how come there are no slots that have -140% rtp over the course of several months/years and yet there are dozens that are 96% or so that have 70% - 90% rtp?

Also, regardless of your repeated response i dont buy how stakes dont affect RTP and how someone betting $400 per spin and winning 4.000.000 wouldnt affect other players rtp, because if thats true and said player quits while he is 4 millions ahead, that slot would have negative rtp (publishers wise) for the rest of its life and im sure slots devs have protected them against such a thing happening.

To add to my point, if slot keeps on its "factory" RTP of 96% then it would take years for that slot to recover from 4 millions $ hit if players keep on playing regular sized bets.

I know its all speculation but we can only blame slot devs for it because they are ignoring everything else other than saying RTP is 99,9% and thats about it. Most dont say how is that RTP distributed, or more important how does one get to that rtp to begin with. This industry needs more transparency and thats rather obvious now.

I honestly dont think slots have strayed that far away from old coins machines and its still based on amount of money that enters the slot, but its done in much less obvious way.

Lets say its based on $1.000.000 batches, so 1m enters the slot this month and $900.000 is paid out. That means over the course of that single batch slot had 90% RTP, which can be distributed further through next batch(es) so next batch could theoreticaly have rtp of 98% while still keeping its 96% factory rtp. Now as i said its done in much less obvious matter so next $1 million batch could have rtp of 80% ($800.000 out 1.000.000 in) leaving the slot in over $300.000 under factory RTP which for all we know could be distributed in just 2 single spins of $150.000.

The way i see it would be much easier to "control" slots while still keeping decent amount of randomness involved, and yet no casino/developers can lose in this situation.

Saying slots dont care if your bet is $0,10 or $1000 is kinda contradictory when you keep on saying how slots have lifetime, factory RTP of 96%.
How on earth does slot know how to get to 96% rtp if it doesnt include stakes placed ? If we go that way, saying how stakes dont matter in that case slots could still have 96% RTP while being $1,428,991.299 in minus and as i said im yet to hear about developers/casinos retiring a slot because it wasnt profitable (and with stakes not included in RTP calculation, there defeinitely should be some slots that are not profitable).

I'm going out now but l will answer all your points in detail when I get chance. The short answer though is because of statistics.

Look for my answer...
 

theapple

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Location
far far away
I'm going out now but l will answer all your points in detail when I get chance. The short answer though is because of statistics.

Look for my answer...

ok and while you are at it, you probably know how some Playtech slots have $4000 max bet size. What happens if someone plays 100 x $4000 spins and ends up with $400.000 in, $1,200,000 out ? (long shot i know luckily there arent that many people betting those amounts)

how does slot "recover" from such RTP hit considering its only like 300% rtp over very small amount of spins, but its still $(#$=load of money? I honestly have my doubts slots would settle with next few players playing on 20 cents bets having 20% rtp, even if that would bring its RTP back to its usuall 90ish percent? Either that or it would have to dish out 4 millions dead spins @20 cents to recover :oops:
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
ok and while you are at it, you probably know how some Playtech slots have $4000 max bet size. What happens if someone plays 100 x $4000 spins and ends up with $400.000 in, $1,200,000 out ? (long shot i know luckily there arent that many people betting those amounts)

how does slot "recover" from such RTP hit considering its only like 300% rtp over very small amount of spins? I honestly have my doubts slots would settle with next few players playing on 20 cents bets having 20% rtp, even if that would bring its RTP back to its usuall 90ish percent?

Easy to explain... Will answer tonight or tomorrow in full.. but short answer is it may never hits correct RTP if you take all stakes in to account and not enough high rollers play it... There are many games in the world the are over RTP and will never recover due to lack of play..
 

Tropicana50

Senior Member
webby
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Location
England
ok and while you are at it, you probably know how some Playtech slots have $4000 max bet size. What happens if someone plays 100 x $4000 spins and ends up with $400.000 in, $1,200,000 out ? (long shot i know luckily there arent that many people betting those amounts)

how does slot "recover" from such RTP hit considering its only like 300% rtp over very small amount of spins, but its still $(#$=load of money? I honestly have my doubts slots would settle with next few players playing on 20 cents bets having 20% rtp, even if that would bring its RTP back to its usuall 90ish percent? Either that or it would have to dish out 4 millions dead spins @20 cents to recover :oops:

You have to remember that EACH SPIN is its own separate entity. On average you will receive the stated TRTP (Theoretical Return To Player) over many spins. This is the difference between RTP and SRP.

RTP (Return To Player) is the total amount out divided by the total amount in multiplied by 100.

SRP (Statistical Return to Player) is the same equation done on a per spin basis. This means each and every spin has the same math applied (amount out divided by the total amount in multiplied by 100). All of these percentage amounts are then added together and divided by the total amount of spins done. This figure results in a totally accurate % which guarantees that stake size does not affect the overall result.

With enough time and enough spins at varying bet sizes these figures would converge, but when working with a low frequency of samples SRP is much more accurate.

We will soon be displaying that SRP figure on Slot Tracker alongside the RTP figure which will give a much more accurate overview of things.

Bet size will NOT affect the TRTP of a game. Short term or long term. Just as someone betting large on a roulette wheel would not have any affect on future spins of the wheel.

- T
 
Top