Is this right?

[Marie2473]

I have noticed that there are a few (more each day) casinos that now offer players credit.
You actually dont need money to deposit and gamble anymore, instead they can send u a bill to your house.

What do you guys think of this?

 

[weesie]

Wow! I have never heard of such!

Definitely sounds dangerous!

 

[Tirilej]

Pugglepay! I don't like it at all.

On the other side if you have a credit card you can play using your credit anyway.

What is bad is that many that have an income but not yet are worthy a credit card, like young people...can play using this.
Play now - pay later

 

[Marie2473]

I also noticed another one besides Pugglepay today.
I think it is horrible and will probably put alot of people at risk - people that will get credit there but not a creditcard since they do not ask for an income or anything like that..

 

[Tirilej]

I also noticed another one besides Pugglepay today.
I think it is horrible and will probably put alot of people at risk - people that will get credit there but not a creditcard since they do not ask for an income or anything like that..

I believe the company that lends you the money do ask for income, and they check so you're trustworthy so far.
If you do miss a payment then you will not get a creditcard for many years.
It's a sad way trapping people.
I don't know though if it's just in Sweden we can use this or if it's everywhere. Do you know, or what do they offer in other countries?

 

[maphesto]

I wonder what payment option you have found, Marie! Can you tell us?

This is the "original" thread about PugglePay:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/eu-casino-play-now-pay-later-pugglepay.54094/?t=54094

Even if a credit card can be used to "play now and pay later", I don't like that kind of payment options.

 

[Captain Chaos]

That sounds like the worst thing ever. Gamble now, pay later? No, no and no! This sounds very irresponsible. Is this place licensed and if so by who?

 

[Marie2473]

I wonder what payment option you have found, Marie! Can you tell us?

This is the "original" thread about PugglePay:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/eu-casino-play-now-pay-later-pugglepay.54094/?t=54094

Even if a credit card can be used to "play now and pay later", I don't like that kind of payment options.

Look at this site for an example. they list the casinos and the options for billing that they ghave, for an example there is one called Kriita Ab.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Captain Chaos]

There's accredited casinos on that list...

 

[incrediblestuff]

I don't think this is a healthy development, and certainly not along the lines of responsible gambling, but i agree with tirilej in that credit cards aren't much different.

It still all comes down to the player in the end, but let's just say i think these companies aren't providing any real service but are trying to get in the market with a bit of an immoral springboard.

I could see myself tempted under certain circumstances..one of the reasons i never applied for any credit card.

 

[Tirilej]

Look at this site for an example. they list the casinos and the options for billing that they ghave, for an example there is one called Kriita Ab.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Thanks for that link.

So four different offers of the same kind.
It's even worse than I thought because it seems you could get credit on your mobile phone bill. (need to check that up though since I'm not sure.)


Edit: I was correct. You can pay through your phone bill. I wonder if it's a limit on that one? Awful!

 

[Captain Chaos]

I don't think this is a healthy development, and certainly not along the lines of responsible gambling, but i agree with tirilej in that credit cards aren't much different.

It still all comes down to the player in the end, but let's just say i think these companies aren't providing any real service but are trying to get in the market with a bit of an immoral springboard.

I could see myself tempted under certain circumstances..one of the reasons i never applied for any credit card.

I do agree. However, with a credit card the card there is a limit and can be used however the user wishes. As long as the bill is paid it's not an issue. I take issue with this though because it isn't like simply giving someone a credit card. This is giving someone credit purely to gamble. That is not only unhealthy but morally wrong IMO. I've no doubt there is a market for this sort of thing. Bit if you ask me, some markets are best left untapped.

 

[bigjohn]

Where there is a demand someone will step in to fill it. I think that all we can hope for is that the backers will find this avenue a dead end and players will see this for what it is.

Unfortunately, this is the world we live in where, for many, the pursuit of the almighty dollar trumps all other pursuits.

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

This is disgusting those places should be shut down who offer this. And at least acredited casinos should not allow this.

Heck so they let players register new accounts who then lend the money to gamble with??? RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING NO!!!

I am sure it states most places that should only gamble resonsible right??? And only gamble for you own money. That is not the persons own money NO it is those disgusting sites getting people signed up and earning on this together with those Casinos.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Things should be moving the other way with credit cards being phased out.

Those people who can't handle it will be able to chase losses, perhaps thinking that they need to have a win just to pay back the loan, and just get in even deeper. Once they hit the limits, and can't pay it back, the effects will go way beyond them having to quit gambling. The loans will have been distanced from gambling, and end up impacting one's credit worthiness, and this in turn can have major consequences such as not being able to get a mortgage or a decent bank account, let alone a regular credit card.

There is also the issue of how aggressively the companies will pursue bad loans. They are damned if they go in hard by taking people's cars and sofas, but are also damned if they are too soft and people learn that they probably won't have to pay it back. This will create a no lose situation for players willing to try it on, and this could mean smaller casinos suffering cashflow problems due to carrying bad debt as well as having to deal with the variance of a bad spell when many of their players want their winnings out.

 

[Tirilej]

Things should be moving the other way with credit cards being phased out.

Those people who can't handle it will be able to chase losses, perhaps thinking that they need to have a win just to pay back the loan, and just get in even deeper. Once they hit the limits, and can't pay it back, the effects will go way beyond them having to quit gambling. The loans will have been distanced from gambling, and end up impacting one's credit worthiness, and this in turn can have major consequences such as not being able to get a mortgage or a decent bank account, let alone a regular credit card.

There is also the issue of how aggressively the companies will pursue bad loans. They are damned if they go in hard by taking people's cars and sofas, but are also damned if they are too soft and people learn that they probably won't have to pay it back. This will create a no lose situation for players willing to try it on, and this could mean smaller casinos suffering cashflow problems due to carrying bad debt as well as having to deal with the variance of a bad spell when many of their players want their winnings out.

Well, the casinos will get paid no matter what so they maybe think it's worth the risk offering this.
There are a lot of companies living on trying to collect debts so everything have its own market.

Of course many will be able to pay back in the beginning, but not in the long run.
This seems to just be a Swedish thing so far. Lets hope it will not be spread out to other countries.

We already have had this kind of traps for a few years. Something called sms-loan, where you can take small loans you have to pay back within 30 days.
Never have so many young people in Sweden been in debts, so we already know how easily they can get tricked in.

 

[spoton]

That is just disgusting. IMO casinos should even be allowed to take credit cards, but the accredited places listed on that page should get the choice of either removing the credit payment option, or get stripped of their accreditation status.

 

[Captain Chaos]

We already have had this kind of traps for a few years. Something called sms-loan, where you can take small loans you have to pay back within 30 days.
Never have so many young people in Sweden been in debts, so we already know how easily they can get tricked in.

That sounds similar to the payday loan system we have in the UK. That's often in the news for the wrong reasons. The problem with these loans is that they are too accessible. Where is the due diligence from these companies? Most of them only ask for proof of ID and income. That's it. No means testing. Nothing afaik. The problem is it's too easy to obtain with too few questions asked. Borrowing money should be a big decision.

 

[onkel]

That affiliate site (casinofaktura.se) must be the lowest of low. Targeting players who want to play on credit is, imo, utterly disgusting.

 

[spoton]

That affiliate site (casinofaktura.se) must be the lowest of low. Targeting players who want to play on credit is, imo, utterly disgusting.

If the guy behind it doesent make enough with his affiliate site I guess we will see him on the corner selling girls or drugs pretty soon.

 

[PugglePay]

PugglePay answers

I have noticed that there are a few (more each day) casinos that now offer players credit.
You actually dont need money to deposit and gamble anymore, instead they can send u a bill to your house.

What do you guys think of this?

Hi Marie,

My name is Johan and I´m one of the founders of PugglePay. If you don´t mind I would like to share some information of how we work. Currently we supply our payment solution to the Scandinavian countries where there is a strong market demand for our solution. Around 29% of all e-commerce in Sweden are handled via invoice solutions. Please see the survey made by the Scandinavian Post office:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

PugglePay focus on services industries such as parking, telecom and iGaming.

Our solution works like a “virtual credit” card. However it is very different from credit cards as the average limit is set to 250 EUR per customer. Before a customer can use our solution we do two things:
1) We conduct a KYC process where we verify the identify of the customer (checking name, age, gender, address etc).
2) Once we are sure of the identity of the customer we conduct a credit check on the customer.
Based on the result of the credit check and additional information we make a conservative, responsible assessment of the customer’s capabilities of paying for the goods or services that they have ordered.

Conservative credit checks
We only accept customers with a solid financial status. That is why we are able to take 100% of the credit and fraud risk towards the companies we work with, but also because our solution is all about simplicity and reliability.

We do many things to make sure that our customer select us because of the easiness of our solution rather than the credit. These are just some actions we do to ensure that our solution is only offered to customers that prefers and has the ability to pay via invoice.
- A limit of 250 EUR per customer.
- The invoice shall be paid within 14 days. 14 days is custom in Sweden.
- If the customer is late we only apply 49 SEK (instead of the 60 SEK which Swedish law stipulates).
- The interest rate IF the customer is late with their payment is only 8% on an annual basis (compared to 25%-30% which credit card companies and our competitors charge).
- If a customer is constantly late with their payments we will block them from using our services. This is what we consider to be a corner stone in responsible credit checks.
- We do not add an invoice fee to the customers
- We are the only payment company (at least that we know of) that makes a check on the customers financial health by each every deposit


Please ask your friends in Sweden or Finland to try our service. Regardless if we accept you as a customer or not all users should get a good and friendly experience. Our solution is all about making the payment process as easy and safe as possible; please try our demo version at PugglePay.com.

Please do not hesitate to get back to us if you have any additional questions or thoughts.

All the best!

Johan

 

[Tirilej]

Sorry, but this is still exactly as bad as what we have said before.

This kind of option is not ok when it comes to gambling.
I will never ever think it's ok

 

[spoton]

- If the customer is late we only apply 49 SEK (instead of the 60 SEK which Swedish law stipulates).
- The interest rate IF the customer is late with their payment is only 8% on an annual basis (compared to 25%-30% which credit card companies and our competitors charge)

If a customer is late with the full ammount,lets say by a month, will you then send it to collection, or will you let him keep on paying a reasonable sum.

Here in Norway companies delivering a loan is required to write the interest including any fees for sending bills, administrating the account etc, are your 8% including this?

I agree with Tirilej. I do really question the ethics and morale of people profiting from delivering credit to gamblers, knowing how many that have problems with it.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Please ask your friends in Sweden or Finland to try our service. Regardless if we accept you as a customer or not all users should get a good and friendly experience. Our solution is all about making the payment process as easy and safe as possible; please try our demo version at PugglePay.com.

Please do not hesitate to get back to us if you have any additional questions or thoughts.

All the best!

Johan

You want us to recommend you to people. This is a bad joke, right?

I have a question for you. Do you think it is morally acceptable for a company to actively seek clients and encourage them to owe gambling debts? Because this is what you are doing. It's not a virtual credit card. It's a bill. That's what an invoice is. If it was a credit card then it would be usable for all sorts of things, all on the same bill. This is not the case here. It is a bill for gambling. I find your business model irresponsible. You should be ashamed of yourselves tbh. Car parking etc, fine. But gambling? Over stepping the mark.

 

[slotplayer]

don't gamble with money you don't have.
lose money using a credit card and you've lost it twice, once to the casino and again when you have to pay it back.

 

[vinylweatherman]

So, why do the casinos need this?

Why don't players and casinos accept only debit cards or other methods of depositing money already owned by the customer. There would be no credit risk TO take on 100%. The only problem seems to be that if someone doesn't have €250 at the moment, they have the inconvenience of having to wait till they have before gambling, and casinos have to wait for the deposits. Once all customers have hit their €250 limit they still have to wait till it's paid off before being able to play again. It seems to be a one-off method for bringing forward by 14 days a €250 spend, after which for every further €1 a player wants to deposit they will have had to pay back €1 from their previous deposits.

For delaying by 14 days the need to pay for things like car parking, fuel, food, etc, a good solution, much like the responsible use of a credit card which enables all spending in a month to be paid off in one go. Trouble can start by bringing forward money to gamble with, and then finding that something unexpected has cropped up such that there was no spare money for gambling after all. Normally, it just isn't there, but having already spent it 14 days earlier, there is a forced €250 to pay in gambling losses at a time when there isn't the money right then for more important things.

If all that happens is that the customer gets thrown out of Pugglepay, then not that bad, but if it then causes their credit rating to fall, loss of other billing services and higher interest rates on things like normal credit cards, or even the refusal to offer a service on the usual invoicing terms, it can make the short term €250 problem into a long term problem of first having to pay it back, and then repairing the damage done to the credit history.

Are gambling debts even enforceable under Swedish law? Until recently, they were not enforceable under UK law, but operated on an "honour" system. This meant that it wasn't possible to take someone to court over a gambling debt, or take assertive action to recover the money.

A pre paid casino depositing card would be a more acceptable option. One would load it with the spare €250 for the month, and then use it to deposit and play at a number of casinos till the funds ran out. This would probably be even better than a debit card as it would allow players to set their budget for the month with money they already had "spare", and when they had lost it all, the card would stop working.

 

[Captain Chaos]

The prepaid casino card is an excellent idea. I have a paddy power cashcard which allows me to walk into any shop and withdraw up to £500 a day from my online account. I don't know if you can load funds onto it but I don't see why not. It is linked to the account after all. It is an excellent solution and I wish more places offered such a thing. Because I really like it.

 

[JoakimVonAnka]

For a really thorough description of PugglePay and Kriita, take a look at <snip> There you'll find everything you need to know about those two Swedish paying methods...

 

[Tirilej]

For a really thorough description of PugglePay and Kriita, take a look at <snip>. There you'll find everything you need to know about those two Swedish paying methods...

If you think it's morally right to use it, then use it!

Posting a link that's already been posting in this thread just look shilly.

 

[miso]

The prepaid casino card is an excellent idea. I have a paddy power cashcard which allows me to walk into any shop and withdraw up to £500 a day from my online account. I don't know if you can load funds onto it but I don't see why not. It is linked to the account after all. It is an excellent solution and I wish more places offered such a thing. Because I really like it.

Paddy Power cash card is more like ID to show in the bookies. You can hand them the card and money in the shop and tell them to load it,
or just tell them username, it makes no difference at all. The card itself has no other use

 

[suzecat]

For a really thorough description of PugglePay and Kriita, take a look at <snip>. There you'll find everything you need to know about those two Swedish paying methods...

And all you need to know is ......... Swedish? LOL.

 

[rshkrn]

More often than not you are bound to end using it as free money......only it's not!

definitely steer clear of those ones......sure road to disaster in the long run IMO

 

[suzecat]

More often than not you are bound to end using it as free money......only it's not!

definitely steer clear of those ones......sure road to disaster in the long run IMO

There was a way years ago to "charge" gambling debt to your telephone bill. If I remember correctly it was an American Indian tribe in Canada that provided this "service." Haven't seen it advertised in years so it may have been a bust. Probably a good thing it's gone, if it is.

IMO problem gamblers do not need additional methods to incur gambling debt. I find it offensive that there are people who make an income by taking advantage of the weaknesses of other people. But that's just me.

 

[PCJACKPOT2008]

I closed all my accounts at sites that offer PugglePay. I would never use it myself but I think it's a discusting way to get people to gamble with money they don't have. Makes me sick just thinking about it.

Trustly and e-wallets.

 

[paul7388]

I closed all my accounts at sites that offer PugglePay. I would never use it myself but I think it's a discusting way to get people to gamble with money they don't have. Makes me sick just thinking about it.

Trustly and e-wallets.

I agree I think its a terrible way to operate letting people gamble what they don't have. But in a way credit cards are exactly same as they let you gamble with money that's not yours either and people can get into a lot of debt through them as well.

 

[paul7388]

The prepaid casino card is an excellent idea. I have a paddy power cashcard which allows me to walk into any shop and withdraw up to £500 a day from my online account. I don't know if you can load funds onto it but I don't see why not. It is linked to the account after all. It is an excellent solution and I wish more places offered such a thing. Because I really like it.

The paddy power cards just the same as Ladbrokes odds on card where you can go into shop and withdraw money. But the cards never have money on them as the money is always in your bookies account the card is only really like id and to access account. Tho my Ladbrokes one is useless as I can still withdraw from shop but need to take my debit card to use the same way as odds on card since I use it to deposit online. Daft system.

 

[spoton]

I see that some accredited casinos offer this service. Would be nice to see how the reps can defend it. Im glad that we have a law from 1902 here in Norway that makes it illegal to collect gambling debt. Hopefully Puggle and the others will get to know this law in a way that costs, and pull out from Norway pretty quick.

 

[Tirilej]

I agree I think its a terrible way to operate letting people gamble what they don't have. But in a way credit cards are exactly same as they let you gamble with money that's not yours either and people can get into a lot of debt through them as well.

You're absolutely correct, but if someone already had o a credit card they wouldn't need anything like this.

Everyone has a bank account but can certainly not get a credit card.

It's the fact that they are making it so easy and are directing the loan to gamblers that I don't like. Those who started it had a background in the igaming business, so they knew what they were doing.

 

[paul7388]

You're absolutely correct, but if someone already had o a credit card they wouldn't need anything like this.

Everyone has a bank account but can certainly not get a credit card.

It's the fact that they are making it so easy and are directing the loan to gamblers that I don't like. Those who started it had a background in the igaming business, so they knew what they were doing.

You should stay in UK. Even with the governments crackdown on lending to people that can not afford it credit cards are still easy to obtain. Maybe not good ones but there are many that are supposedly designed for people with bad credit( they say they are to help build your credit rating LOL) and most people can get them even 18 year olds as long as they are not bankrupt. Crazy but true that companies give credit cards to people with no credit history or people that have had lots of loans and never paid them.

 

[Tirilej]

You should stay in UK. Even with the governments crackdown on lending to people that can not afford it credit cards are still easy to obtain. Maybe not good ones but there are many that are supposedly designed for people with bad credit( they say they are to help build your credit rating LOL) and most people can get them even 18 year olds as long as they are not bankrupt. Crazy but true that companies give credit cards to people with no credit history or people that have had lots of loans and never paid them.

Then I'm glad I'm not in UK

I have no credit card. I don't want any. If I run out of money then I am. No problem.
I've seen what it can do to people, and I have one in the family who constantly are buying the latest stuff...on credit.
I'm just happy she doesn't gamble

When I have saved enough money to buy what I want it's old already

 

[Balthazar]

Personally I think the best solution would be to play with a debit card: instant deposits/withdrawals straight from your bank account, no 3rd party and you can't spend more than what you have. Unfortunately that's not possible yet.

With that being said, I honestly fail to see how this PugglePay thing is any different than a credit card?

They check your credit record, they loan you the money, they send a bill and then they charge interests if you're late. I don't know about you guys but that's exactly how my VISA card works as well. Also, their limit seems to be much lower than usual credit cards.

Where exactly is the problem here?

 

[hoff1985]

Well... For once i have a bit a different opinion then most members here..... I think everyone is responsible for himself. There's not a big difference compared to a credit card... We talk here about 250 eur... On credit cards you have higher limits... And with a credit card you also have the chance to gamble even if you can't afford it, and there's only one credit check when you order the card. Think about it.

We are responsible for our actions!

 

[Tirilej]

We are responsible for our actions!

We certainly are! But you and I are not targets here. We already know what we're doing.

You have no idea how many youngsters that are getting in to this gambling world now, because of the easy way to play, and to loan money.
They are caught up in debts before they have reach the age of 20.
They can't get a credit card or loan from any banks here, but from these people they can...and other not so good places.

I wish the age for gambling would be raced to 25. That would help a lot of people stay out of trouble. But that are dreams I know that.

 

[maphesto]

They can't get a credit card or loan from any banks here, but from these people they can...and other not so good places.

Yes!

I think this as well. A Visa or Mastercard credit card is harder to get than this. All kinds of super quick loans as mobile loans and PugglePay seems to target the market of the youngsters.

I see a huge difference between PugglePay and credit cards.