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Is Palin hot? (me thinks yes)

Well, lets think about this for a sec...ok long enough...who was the president and what party does he belong to that implemented and signed into law "The Patriot Act" the single largest loss of liberties the American public has ever suffered ??

Have you ever actually took the time to read it...I think you would change your views a little if you did !!

Ok, on the much higher taxes issue, out of the last 36 years there has been in office a Republican President for 24 of those years and you are worried about Obama raising our taxes...are you serious...:lolup:


So no rebuttals here :confused:

Looks like cold hard facts are hard to rebut huh...;)
 
"I need to know if she really thinks dinosaurs were here 4.000 years ago...because she's going to have the nuclear codes.":lolup::lolup:

Actor Matt Damon, on Palin whose political rise he compares to a "bad Disney movie" in this weeks Newsweek magazine.
 
Neanderthal comes to mind:)
now mercy, was that nice, the baby has downs syndrome and you know, i wouldnt care what the names are as long as the parents love and take care of them........now here comes the feedback on the 17 year old pregnant daughter,i know some of ya'll like a book and what i think your gonna say:D.........somebody loved the 17 year old tooo much:rolleyes: laurie..........McCain/ Palin 08 Winners
 
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now mercy, was that nice, the baby has downs syndrome and you know, i wouldnt care what the names are as long as the parents love and take care of them........now here comes the feedback on the 17 year old pregnant daughter,i know some of ya'll like a book and what i think your gonna say:D.........somebody loved the 17 year old tooo much:rolleyes: laurie

Okay apology for her son with down's syndrome, the rest? :lolup:
 
Yep, she did a 180 on that one! LMAO

I remember when I first heard the story the day she was nominated everyone was saying that she will FULLY cooperate in the investigation, but also hired a lawyer and some folks said that this would happen.

I can see her being guilty of such a thing because IMO she has that kind of "I'll get in your A$$ if you cross me" type personality. Anyone that compares themself to a "Pitbull in Lipstick" could certainly feel justified in the use of their power to fire someone that helped the trooper that allegedly "threatened" to kill her dad and is in a dispute with her sister! :D

The fact that she is avoiding the media is a HUGE red flag in my eyes. She can get up there and read a speach full of lies about Obama, but can't back it up in an interview with the "elite" media.
 
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Not The Kids!!!

I don't think we need to bring in the children of the candidates. Palin isn't high up in my book.

But to bring in her children ( which by the way I think look adorable ) is just wrong.



_____________
CM for Prez 2008
 
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I don't think we need to bring in the children of the candidates. Palin isn't high up in my book.

But to bring in her children ( which by the way I think look adorable ) is just plain wrong.

I totally agree! The kids and family should be off limits no matter what! I certainly hope that we don't see that crap on the news again.

But her political view on women and stuff is okay. :D
 
Well, lets think about this for a sec...ok long enough...who was the president and what party does he belong to that implemented and signed into law "The Patriot Act" the single largest loss of liberties the American public has ever suffered ??

Have you ever actually took the time to read it...I think you would change your views a little if you did !!

Ok, on the much higher taxes issue, out of the last 36 years there has been in office a Republican President for 24 of those years and you are worried about Obama raising our taxes...are you serious...:lolup:

Rob,

Being on the legal side of corporate transactions I deal with The Patriot Act daily. I have read it and disagree with a lot of it. And of course it was passed by republicans in the wake of 9/11. I foresaw this argument before I posted. I do believe the president had to resort to extraordinary measures due to the uncertainty after 9/11. Although the bill is far reaching, I have not felt that MY individual liberties were greatly affected. Democrats, on the other hand, want to increase gun control for example - laws that have a more direct impact on the lives of ordinary US citizens.

Although I respect your views, your statement about raising taxes leaves me completely perplexed as to your understanding of current events. Even as I type this (9:30 pm on 9/16/08 EDT) the democrat-controlled congress is ramming through a bill further regulating offshore drilling. But, against their promise to America about midnight legislation, they have added a $1B earmark for undefined transportation in New York City (requested by tax evader Charlie Rangel). Did you know that? This bill also increases taxes for oil companies. Are you as naive as them to believe oil companies will not pass this tax along to the consumer?

Obama has said repeatedly that he will make health care and college education free for all americans (including illegal immigrants). His own campaign (and Hillary's campaign) has admitted this would raise taxes by 15 to 20%. ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Lastly I have to laugh at your cronies who suggest conservatives don't react well to facts. Liberals IMO are so far removed from reality that most of them are delusional (in the clinical sense of the word).
 
Rob,

Being on the legal side of corporate transactions I deal with The Patriot Act daily. I have read it and disagree with a lot of it. And of course it was passed by republicans in the wake of 9/11. I foresaw this argument before I posted. I do believe the president had to resort to extraordinary measures due to the uncertainty after 9/11. Although the bill is far reaching, I have not felt that MY individual liberties were greatly affected.

Are you sure about that ? Section 215 of The Patriot Act violates your Fourth Amendment Rights by allowing the government to perform searches without a warrant and without showing probable cause. The provision violates the First Amendment by prohibiting those served with Section 215 orders from disclosing that fact to others, even where there is no real need for secrecy.

The provision violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to investigate U.S. persons, including American citizens, based in part on their exercise of First Amendment activity, The provision also violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments by failing to require that those who are the subject of Section 215 orders be told that their privacy has been compromised.

So are you really sure that your individual liberties were not greatly affected ?? :eek2:

President Bush's instigation of warrantless eavesdropping on Americans by the National Security Agency violates the Americans Fourth Amendment rights and demonstrates a total disregard for the rule of law. Our system of government requires that the power of any president must not be left unchecked which I believe, that it, for the most part has been left unchecked with this current idiot that we have in there now.

Americans should always demand a strong system of checks and balances and Presidents must faithfully execute the laws passed by Congress and cannot simply ignore those laws no matter who the hell they think they are. Too many people forget the fact that they work for us and we will be the ones to restore this republic one way or the other...it may take another revolution or civil war in this country to do it but it will happen sooner or later if things don't change soon !!

Let me leave you with three final thoughts here to ponder on...;)


“Those who sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety are not deserving of either liberty or safety.” — Ben Franklin, 1776

"Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death" -- Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775

Giving up any part of our freedom is not the answer here, in fact, that's exactly what the terrorists want. When we do that, they win.


Democrats, on the other hand, want to increase gun control for example - laws that have a more direct impact on the lives of ordinary US citizens.

I don't agree with that bunch of idiots on their gun law views either...violates our 2nd Amendment Rights...total BS !!


Although I respect your views, your statement about raising taxes leaves me completely perplexed as to your understanding of current events. Even as I type this (9:30 pm on 9/16/08 EDT) the democrat-controlled congress is ramming through a bill further regulating offshore drilling. But, against their promise to America about midnight legislation, they have added a $1B earmark for undefined transportation in New York City (requested by tax evader Charlie Rangel). Did you know that? This bill also increases taxes for oil companies. Are you as naive as them to believe oil companies will not pass this tax along to the consumer?

Not naive at all as I do believe that you know if you have read enough of my posts...and this may or may not surprise you but I agree that that is a crock of s**t too...like I've stated many times before, I don't have any love lost for either party, this two party system is what is wrong with our country now and keeps so many of us torn and split apart on so many of our differing views, until this system gets revamped with a true third party contender our country will stay split and will not ever accomplish jack shitte as far as true reform goes.


Obama has said repeatedly that he will make health care and college education free for all americans (including illegal immigrants). His own campaign (and Hillary's campaign) has admitted this would raise taxes by 15 to 20%. ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Yea and McCain wants to tax your health care benefit payment that comes out of your paycheck now before taxes are added on...so stalemate...huh :cool:


Lastly I have to laugh at your cronies who suggest conservatives don't react well to facts. Liberals IMO are so far removed from reality that most of them are delusional (in the clinical sense of the word).

There's too many to count on both sides Bryan that are truly delusional...that's the real reality...sad but true...:rolleyes: No disrespect intended here to any of my cronies...:D
 
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Obama has said repeatedly that he will make health care and college education free for all americans (including illegal immigrants). His own campaign (and Hillary's campaign) has admitted this would raise taxes by 15 to 20%. ARE YOU SERIOUS?

If they take the 10 billion a MONTH we give to Iraq then we can pay for it and more. :D

I don't mind taking care of or US citizens where it's needed such as health care and education, BUT I do mind wasting my tax money for crap that's it's being used for now.

Most americans are just ONE major medical crisis from bankrupcy so why the heck can't we figure out a way to help them? What do you think we should do with them? Do we ship them to the moon so the rich don't have to take care of them?

We help the oil companys, banks and every friggen body else while the INTERST alone on our national debt to foreign countries rise by god knows how much daily.
 
His proposed changes in federal policy are not possible, by his own admission, without substantially increasing taxes. The "change" Obama will bring is more regulation on our personal freedom and much higher taxes. Obama is change for the sake of change only.

Actually Obama is lowering the taxes for those making $250k or less and rolling them back to the Clinton years. (Actually many of those are tax credits and not a lowering of the tax bracket.) He really should put them somewhere between the Bush and Clinton brackets.

However, I'm not afraid of the "raise your taxes" scare tactic. When taxes are cut too much, it grows the economy way too fast, when the economy grows too fast it causes inflation. Inflation is much worse to deal with on a daily basis than higher taxes, people seem to confuse the to. Wages never keep up with inflation and people stop spending which only snowballs the problem.

Regulation is both a good thing and bad thing. Although you really need it. Without it businsses take advantage, just look at the banking industry, on the verge of total collapase. Make it lopsided and you get things like outrageous bank fees or check21. Look at all the regulations credticard companies lobbied for and got.

Aren't casino t&c's regulations, imagine what chaos there would be with any at all.

There was a time when companies shared their prosperity with the average worker, that philosophy has changed over the last two decades and now it's hugely out of control. It started with the economic policies of Ronald Reagan. A perfect example of this mind set is Bill Gates lobbying for unlimited H1 Visas.
 
Rob,

Although I respect your views, your statement about raising taxes leaves me completely perplexed as to your understanding of current events. Even as I type this (9:30 pm on 9/16/08 EDT) the democrat-controlled congress is ramming through a bill further regulating offshore drilling. But, against their promise to America about midnight legislation, they have added a $1B earmark for undefined transportation in New York City (requested by tax evader Charlie Rangel). Did you know that? This bill also increases taxes for oil companies. Are you as naive as them to believe oil companies will not pass this tax along to the consumer?

Didn't Gov. Palin pass a windfall profit tax on the oil companies and gave each citizen $1200? I believe those checks were mailed recently.

The previous congress had 13,000 earmarks, this congress 11,000. If I recall correctly during the Ronald Reagan presidency there were around 800 earmarks.
 
What great debate :thumbsup:

The provision violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to investigate U.S. persons, including American citizens, based in part on their exercise of First Amendment activity, The provision also violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments by failing to require that those who are the subject of Section 215 orders be told that their privacy has been compromised.

So are you really sure that your individual liberties were not greatly affected ??

Yes, I believe that MY civil liberties have not been violated although the gov't has the ability to do so. I am saying that I doubt my telephone is being wiretapped, etc.


Actually Obama is lowering the taxes for those making $250k or less and rolling them back to the Clinton years. (Actually many of those are tax credits and not a lowering of the tax bracket.) He really should put them somewhere between the Bush and Clinton brackets.

Okay, if so, how does he propose to pay for universal health care? These 2 promises are mutually exclusive.


However, I'm not afraid of the "raise your taxes" scare tactic. When taxes are cut too much, it grows the economy way too fast, when the economy grows too fast it causes inflation. Inflation is much worse to deal with on a daily basis than higher taxes, people seem to confuse the to. Wages never keep up with inflation and people stop spending which only snowballs the problem.

I agree in theory but can you name a time in history when tax cuts caused inflation? Further, most Dem's believe that tax cuts cannot stimulate the economy at all.


Regulation is both a good thing and bad thing. Although you really need it. Without it businsses take advantage, just look at the banking industry, on the verge of total collapase. Make it lopsided and you get things like outrageous bank fees or check21. Look at all the regulations credticard companies lobbied for and got.

Government gave the financial industry just enough rope to hang itself. Needless to say one can pick up a good deal on a summer house on Long Island nowadays :p


Didn't Gov. Palin pass a windfall profit tax on the oil companies and gave each citizen $1200? I believe those checks were mailed recently.

Rather savvy IMO as Alaskans benefited from taxes imposed on oil companies that all Americans had to pay because they passed the cost onto all consumers (not just Alaskans). McCain realizes that a federal windfall tax (similar to the Carter tax that was later repealed) would be a regressive "pass-through" tax. This underlines my argument about Obama's "changes". They sound good to the masses but either (a) serve no good (e.g. windfall profit tax on oil companies) or (b) are not practical (e.g. universal health care and higher education).
 
What great debate :thumbsup:

Yes, I believe that MY civil liberties have not been violated although the gov't has the ability to do so. I am saying that I doubt my telephone is being wiretapped, etc.

Yes I agree, great debate...:thumbsup:


I agree in theory but can you name a time in history when tax cuts caused inflation?


Well, since you asked...:D

The conventional wisdom regarding modern American macroeconomic history is that after the Keynesian Revolution of the 1930s, business cycles were largely tamed, in part because of the intelligent use of fiscal policy. Scholars point to the Kennedy-Johnson tax cut of 1964-65, which, we are told, turned a sluggish economy into a vibrant and rapidly expanding one, setting off the longest boom in American history to that time.

Martin Prachowny challenges that wisdom in his interesting and valuable account of the Kennedy-Johnson tax cut, writing what he calls a "revisionist history." Yet the revisionism is a different form than I would have predicted ex ante. I expected an account arguing that the Keynesian paradigm was faulty, perhaps using a New Classical perspective that emphasizes the role that the tax cut had in the genesis of the stagflation of the 1970s. Rather, Prachowny finds not much inherently wrong in the Keynesian theoretical approach, but much wrong in its implementation. The villains in this account are Walter Heller, Gardner Ackley, and Arthur Okun, the chairmen of the Council of Economic Advisers (CEA) of the era. The problem was not that they were Keynesian, Prachowny argues, but that they were not Keynesian enough.

Prachowny suggests that the sins of this triad of economists were many. First of all, he argues that they were not using the full array of Keynesian theoretical tools to analyze the economy. They used a rather simple multiplier-accelerator model, instead of the IS-LM approach that was universally used in the intermediate macro theory books of the time. As a consequence, they tended to ignore the interest rate and monetary dimensions of their expansionist programs. Crowding out is not acknowledged as a potential issue. The problem was sometimes even more basic: "the simple truth is that Heller did not understand the operation of the accelerator" (p.68), a hallmark of Keynesian cyclical analysis of that era. Moreover, while Okun (approvingly in Prachowny's view) championed the idea of measuring and targeting the gap between actual and potential GNP, thus introducing some supply side considerations into the analysis, the CEA inconsistently tried to eliminate the output gap, and sometimes dishonestly or incompetently measured it (Prachowny goes into some tedious econometric overkill to demonstrate that point). Moreover, its sensitivity to supply side effects of stabilization policy was wanting.

Moreover, the CEA was not always intellectually honest, sometimes suppressing truth and hard analysis in order to accommodate some political problem. Prachowny shows that at one point Ackley seemed to advocate lying (or at least suppressing the perceived truth) about the forecasted GNP, even though this would "not completely fool many outside experts" (p. 197). The notion that the Council was a group of objective experts, who gave the president and public the unvarnished truth as they saw it, is a fantasy. Speaking of Heller's perception of his job, Prachowny noted "there was no inconsistency between being a partisan advocate of efficiency and a partisan Democrat" (pp. 180-181).

Even more sinful, the Council was intellectually inconsistent, fighting hard in 1962 and 1963 for a tax cut to eliminate an output gap, but vacillating and fudging forecasts so as to avoid vigorously prompting a tax increase when aggregate demand overheated by 1966 or 1967. Bowing to political pressures (e.g., opposition to a tax increase by Lyndon Johnson and Wilbur Mills), they pushed wage-price guideposts and started bashing businessmen, implementing fine-tuning and mindless intervention to an absurd degree. Thus, in February 1966, Gardner Ackley devoted considerable effort to rolling back an increase in shoe prices, and argued that the U.S. "should . . . proceed to draw up an export restriction order" (p. 122). In Prachowny's view, inflation was mounting because the government would not dampen aggregate demand, yet the nation's leading policy economist was advocating trade restrictions to deal with the problem! Had Shakespeare been alive, he might sensibly have advocated shooting the economists instead of the lawyers. The fiasco of failing to deal at a macro level with excessive aggregate demand set the stage for inflation and later stagflation.

Prachowny says that the CEA did not take advantage of modern advances in Keynesian economics, such as the development of IS-LM analysis. One can argue that they ignored non-Keynesian insights as well. Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz had written their Monetary History of the United States before the tax cut was approved, and the early Keynesian notion that "money does not matter" (which seemed, roughly, to be the Heller view) was under serious attack. We were within a few years of reading new insights of Friedman, Phelps, Lucas and others. Why did not some of the brainpower at the Council anticipate the problems that demand stimulus would cause in the long run? Among the Council's members were future Nobel laureate James Tobin. Other future Nobel winners, like Robert Solow, were informal advisors. Eccentric, but probably correct, Ludwig von Mises almost perfectly anticipated the Phillips Curve and its ultimate demise in the forward to his new edition of the Theory of Money and Credit, published in 1953. If one wants to indict the Council on its economics, one does not have to limit oneself to its lack of sophistication regarding the Keynesian model.

When all is said in done, however, Prachowny's book is a welcome addition to the literature on American fiscal policy history. It adds importantly to the work of individuals like the late Herbert Stein and the self-congratulatory writings of participants in the policy-making arena. Prachowny despairs over the politicization of policy recommendations of economists, but to students of public choice his laments are totally predictable.

The Prachowny book is not the last word, however, on this subject. It is not a comprehensive analysis of the Kennedy-Johnson tax cut, but rather an economist's attempt to analyze the actions of fellow economists who were influential in making policy. The book virtually ignores the discussions between Lyndon Johnson and his other advisers, the role played by the Treasury, Commerce Department, Budget Bureau, Congress, special interest groups and the like. Making economic policy is like making sausage -- it is not pretty. Prachowny expresses horror at this, particularly at it relates to the CEA, but the problem did not start with Walter Heller or end with him. Indeed, as a longtime consultant to a congressional committee myself, I think the problem is far larger than he imagines. Indeed, the problems of timing fiscal policy, of the probability of special interest manipulation of results, etc., increase the case for a rules approach to macro policy, arguably on both the fiscal and monetary sides.

Perhaps some of the alleged failings of the CEA during this period should fall more on others largely ignored in Prachowny's account. Even if the CEA had behaved perfectly it might not have been able to alter policy that much: its power was finite. While House Ways and Means chair Wilbur Mills gets some mention in this book, there is very little on the political dynamics that went into the tax cut and the laterdecision to engage an income tax surcharge. There is no mention of Henry Fowler (LBJ's Treasury Secretary) or Everett Dirksen (prominent Republican senator) or dozens of other influential political leaders who played a role in shaping fiscal policy during this era. There is no mention of a fascinating phone conversation that Lyndon Johnson had with Heller the day after Kennedy's assassination inviting him, in effect, to fudge revenue estimates (as recounted in Michael Beschloss's editing of the Johnson White House tapes). In short, much of the richness of the story about policy changes of the era is lost in the Prachowny recounting, with its emphasis on the arcane details of forecasting, model building, and econometric estimations.

The Prachowny book, however, has stimulated me to offer a rather different revisionist account, which some scholar might wish to develop or challenge. At the time that the Kennedy-Johnson tax cut was approved in February 1964, the unemployment rate was 5.4 percent, below the annual average for any of the previous six years and 1.2 percentage points lower than when Kennedy took office. If Robert Gordon is right, unemployment was pretty close to its natural rate. The economy had been growing faster than its long run average rate (of about 3.5 percent annual output growth). For example, real GDP rose over 5 percent annually over the two years 1962 and 1963, significantly reducing any potential output gap. In the five quarters including the enactment of the tax increase and the year preceding, real GDP rose at annual rate varying between 2.9 and 9.2 percent a quarter, with the median growth rate being 5.3 percent. In short, there was no dire need to stimulate aggregate demand: the self-correcting properties of the market were working nicely to eliminate the last residue of the 1960 recession.

Yet 1964 was an election year, and LBJ was a masterful political animal. Johnson wanted to revitalize the New Deal coalition, and a tax cut would help give him the power to do it. The economy really did not really need a tax cut from a cyclical perspective, but it needed it to meet LBJ's political objectives, and the economy (and Kennedy's assassination) provided the cover. Heller, Okun and Ackley were partisan Democrats wanting to help the cause. Whether out of partisan enthusiasm for a liberal Democratic agenda or out of economic ignorance or both, they went all the way with LBJ. To be sure, the administration economists, with their obsession with aggregate demand, probably underestimated the supply side effects of the tax cut, as total income tax (individual and corporation) revenues rose over 20 percent from fiscal year 1963 (the last pre-tax cut year) to fiscal year 1966 (the first year with the cut fully implemented). The Laffer curve dimensions of the tax cut were realized beyond their fondest dreams. Yet the extraordinary increase on the demand side from the Vietnam War and Great Society programs led to rising inflation, and ultimately to the higher inflationary expectations, wage increases and soaring interest rates that ultimately led to the stagnation of the 1970s. The budget deficit problem was not a result of a failure of tax revenues to grow, but rather entirely the consequence of an extraordinary growth in expenditures that went to fight what ultimately turned out to be two highly unproductive wars, the War on Poverty and the Vietnam War.

Enough of my own speculation. The important point is that Prachowny has provided a valuable addition to the literature, one well researched and documented. Its faults are ones of omission rather than commission, and his retelling of this era stimulates us to await a more comprehensive retelling of the fiscal experiences of the Sixties.

Reviewed by Richard K. Vedder, Department of Economics, Ohio University.

Which by the way we are fighting these same two senarios today !! ;)

The War on Poverty and the War's in the Middle East...:rolleyes:
 
Yes, I believe that MY civil liberties have not been violated although the gov't has the ability to do so. I am saying that I doubt my telephone is being wiretapped, etc.
Do you understand that in order to find and tap into the 'terrorists' conversations, the logic is that they have to monitor everyones communications all the time...

So yes your phone is tapped...

Without getting into the tinfoil hat stuff, the US Government has the ability to monitor every single commercial electronic transmission on the planet (ECHELON/SIGINT). Why do you think the real terrorists quit using cell phones, blackberries etc. several years ago...

On a different note;
I was just doing some reading on the Spanish Civil War. I think there is a huge warning there for Americans... Over a million people died... It was a war between Religious Conservatives and Liberal Secularists, very very much like our very own Republicans and Democrats.
 
Do you understand that in order to find and tap into the 'terrorists' conversations, the logic is that they have to monitor everyones communications all the time...

So yes your phone is tapped...

Without getting into the tinfoil hat stuff, the US Government has the ability to monitor every single commercial electronic transmission on the planet (ECHELON/SIGINT). Why do you think the real terrorists quit using cell phones, blackberries etc. several years ago...

:lolup::lolup: If only the US gov't would just hire 300MM more workers!!!
 
she's hot hehehehe....Always, through out history, there have been three basic types of people. Moral people, those who never knowingly do wrong, this is the beginnings of wisdom for they have an awareness of accountability. Then there are the immoral, those who do wrong if they think no one sees or that they will not get caught. They will step across the line when it serves them. Finally, there are ammoral people. These live across the line, for them there is no right or wrong, just whatever they desire. With them accountability is for fools and they have no wisdom. I see McCain as basically immoral. Obama is completely ammoral and as such it would be appropriate for people to fear his utter ruthlessness. He is collecting vote; what does that say about this society?Any person who comes to this country and was born in this country and reaps the reward for doing so better be ready to fight for the freedom that OUR FOREFATHERS Fought and died for, and moron who does not believe had better get a clue before it is too late, I hate war everyone hates war BUT it is a terrible fact of life and has always been so since the beginning of man.i just saw their TV ads in pollclash and its getting warmer this time. well you can see the TV ads in
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I hate war everyone hates war BUT it is a terrible fact of life and has always been so since the beginning of man.[/URL]

I would agree except for the fact that the war is Iraq is not one that ANYONE should be expected or asked to die for and has CONTRIBUTED to the economic crisis that we face to day. Just because we have brave men and women over there fighting does not mean that they belive it what they are doing and IMO that is very sad.

Also I'm trying to figure out if those that support the Iraq war think we should continue to bankrupt America in support of it? And while you are at it, please tell me how we are better off today with regard to terrorism then we were in 2001? If nothing else we are more vulnable and being in Iraq won't change that fact no matter how long we are there or how many more months we stay over there at a cost of now 12 BILLION US DOLLAR A MONTH.

Edit: As far as the plan of each candidates none of it is relevant because neither of them have a say over what congress will do for the $700 billion (welfare) bailout so it's irrelevant to me.

I do know that McCain is flip-flopping all over the place on his position on REGULATION and government involvement in our lives (execept for gambling :D). It's easy for him to come up with a plan and then change it to fit the circumstance when needed.
 
This the same Sarah Palin - who is courting controversy over the parentage of her youngest Trig Palin.

Furthermore the 'Hockey Mum' believes in Creationism. Yes, she truly believes that there is a white bearded fellow who lives in the clouds who created the earth in 7 days some 6000 years ago. :rolleyes:

Not forgetting the fact, that when a small town Mayor, she tried to ban a whole raft of books.

She may be hotter than Hilary, but her politics are most certainly not.
 
:lolup::lolup: If only the US gov't would just hire 300MM more workers!!!
Why bother... They already have AT&T and the other telecoms working for them.

Sticking you head in the sand and denying what is going on is really not a solution to our problems.

Even the staunchest conservatives acknowledge that our very own government is spying on all of us...

That is why there were law suits against the telecoms and now against George Bush and his cronies for spying on ALL Americans... Bush pushed the Congress into exempting all the telecoms from legal action for spying us... So Bush just had them make the telecoms exempt for the fun of it... Not a chance, they were helping him spy on all of us and now they don't want to be held responsible for their own actions.

Like I said, even the "stupid" terrorists know not to use a cell phone or any phone anywhere in the world... Why? Because Uncle Sam is listening to everything everywhere all the time.
 
I would agree except for the fact that the war is Iraq is not one that ANYONE should be expected or asked to die for and has CONTRIBUTED to the economic crisis that we face to day. Just because we have brave men and women over there fighting does not mean that they belive it what they are doing and IMO that is very sad.

Also I'm trying to figure out if those that support the Iraq war think we should continue to bankrupt America in support of it? And while you are at it, please tell me how we are better off today with regard to terrorism then we were in 2001? If nothing else we are more vulnable and being in Iraq won't change that fact no matter how long we are there or how many more months we stay over there at a cost of now 12 BILLION US DOLLAR A MONTH.

The first question is whether the international community really believed Iraq was planning to use WMD on other countries. If one thinks it was all a governmental scam, nothing can be said to clarify the issue. Otherwise it appears simple to me. The US invaded Iraq but found no evidence of WMD. So just leave, right? The invasion caused Iraq to become a caldron for extremist jihadists being funnelled from surrounding countries. Leaving too quickly would have left the oil reserves unprotected eventually leading to global extortion. Of course the Iraq war was all about oil! Most, if not all, energy experts believe even a 10% loss in the global oil supply would result in catastrophic conditions in all industrialized nations.

"I shouted out, who killed the Kennedys? When after all it was you and me." I believe we caused the war in Iraq by selfishly continuing our addiction to fossil fuels. Our society cannot function without oil and must fight to keep it accessible. But unfortunately its so much easier to blame George Bush rather than taking personal responsibilty for the current state of affairs. As for the financial crisis, who was the head of the Federal Reserve during Clinton's 2 terms? Greenspan, of course.

Why won't the residents of New Orleans admit their local government misappropriated millions allocated and granted by the federal government to fix the levees long ago?? And admit they have been warned over the years of an eventual flood problem because the city lies below sealevel?? Because its easier to blame George Bush.

Edit: As far as the plan of each candidates none of it is relevant because neither of them have a say over what congress will do for the $700 billion (welfare) bailout so it's irrelevant to me.

Republican have said they will not support bailout legislation unless McCain endorses it. I expect the democrats will follow suit.
 
Well if the war in Iraq was truly about Oil for America... We obviously lost.

The Iraq Oil is now going to China and Haliburton (that used to be a US company but is now located in Dubai to avoid American Laws and Regulations)
Controls all the Iraq Oil and they have signed a deal with China to provide all the Iraq Oil to them.

Now of course Haliburton, (Vice President Dick Cheneys company) has no intention of paying back the Billions of US tax dollars they wasted and lost in Iraq (that is why they moved to Dubai) and now they are getting paid by the Chinese for the Oil you say we invaded Iraq for...

We not only lost the war, they played us for fools and now they are pissing on us and laughing about it.
 
As for the financial crisis, who was the head of the Federal Reserve during Clinton's 2 terms? Greenspan, of course.
Ronald Regan appointed Allan Greenspan as head of the Federal Reserve in 1987.
Allan Greenspan served under three Republican Presidents (two of them served two terms)... But only one Democrat President. So If anyone is to blame for Allan Greenspan it is the Republican leadership that placed him as the head of the federal reserve and kept him there for twenty years.

In case you forgot... When Clinton was President we had a Congress that was controlled by the Republicans... And the Republican controlled Congress LOVED GREENSPAN...

If you really want to lay blame for the current crisis, I say blame the people that for forty years have been busy dismantling the protections Franklin D. Roosevelt put in place to stop another Great Depression from occurring. I believe folks called it "De-Regulation" and said the regulations were not needed. Well obviously the regulations (protections) were needed and were there for a good reason...
 
Well if the war in Iraq was truly about Oil for America... We obviously lost.

The Iraq Oil is now going to China and Haliburton (that used to be a US company but is now located in Dubai to avoid American Laws and Regulations)
Controls all the Iraq Oil and they have signed a deal with China to provide all the Iraq Oil to them.

Now of course Haliburton, (Vice President Dick Cheneys company) has no intention of paying back the Billions of US tax dollars they wasted and lost in Iraq (that is why they moved to Dubai) and now they are getting paid by the Chinese for the Oil you say we invaded Iraq for...

We not only lost the war, they played us for fools and now they are pissing on us and laughing about it.

Totally irrelevant. Oil is, of couse, fungible. It makes no difference who buys oil from whom.
 
Totally irrelevant. Oil is, of couse, fungible. It makes no difference who buys oil from whom.
Oh come on.
Of course it matters.

We don't have the Oil you say the war was fought over, someone else does.
So by any standard or measurement you want to use... We lost.

All we Americans have to show for the war in Iraq is a lot of young dead and wounded Americans, a lot of Bad feelings toward us world wide, a Military that has been stretched past it's limits, reduced stature in the World and a huge debt that is leading us quickly towards another Great Depression.
 
How about these overseas companies that are sitting ships 12 miles off the coast of California with workers on board so they don't have to pay USA taxes? :rolleyes:
thats what just ticks me off, all these other companys not paying and sending jobs overseas and i dont even want to hear well the americans dont want the jobs, bull shit!!!!!! whens the last time you had to call about your computer or your cable company and talked to some dude in india or mexico? next time you go to reload your card at one of these check cashing places that have western unions, see how many are sending the money they have made back home to mexico and didnt pay a dimes worth of taxes, americans do want the work but its the big companys that want the cheaper labor, i think they need to be checking all illegals out and as i said before they need to enter the the right way and pay their part.....................just my opinion only..............laurie
 
How about these overseas companies that are sitting ships 12 miles off the coast of California with workers on board so they don't have to pay USA taxes? :rolleyes:
If your talking about Google's case, I don't believe Google wanting to set these off shore platforms up is not as much about escaping taxes as it is about escaping government censorship.

BTW - If they are "overseas" companies they don't pay US taxes anyway so what does it matter if they are 12 miles off the coast or 1200? :)
 
Ronald Regan appointed Allan Greenspan as head of the Federal Reserve in 1987.
Allan Greenspan served under three Republican Presidents (two of them served two terms)... But only one Democrat President. So If anyone is to blame for Allan Greenspan it is the Republican leadership that placed him as the head of the federal reserve and kept him there for twenty years.

In case you forgot... When Clinton was President we had a Congress that was controlled by the Republicans... And the Republican controlled Congress LOVED GREENSPAN...

If you really want to lay blame for the current crisis, I say blame the people that for forty years have been busy dismantling the protections Franklin D. Roosevelt put in place to stop another Great Depression from occurring. I believe folks called it "De-Regulation" and said the regulations were not needed. Well obviously the regulations (protections) were needed and were there for a good reason...

Again, who killed the Kennedys?

I used Greenspan as an example because he is the democrats whipping boy de jour. He played only a small part in the current financial crisis.

The real reasons are not being discussed in the media because - everyone say it together - it is easier to blame George Bush than take personal responsibility.

Oversimplified but here goes: During the late 1990's, investors (individual and institutional) sought refuge in tangible assets due to volatility of the stock market. Real estate turned out to be the winner. As institutional investment began inflating real estate prices, Greenspan's Fed kept decreasing the overnight lending rate which drove down LIBOR and eventually the prime lending rate for individuals. These 2 factors lead to the rise of "flip this house". People bought houses, painted a room or two, and refinanced or sold it for much more. Mortgage brokers exaggerated applicant financials and appraisers became over generous with values. Mortgages on new purchases and refinances were booming but the banks were running out of money to lend due to the deposit/loan ratio requirement. Banks, of course, make money from the loan origination fees. Hence LEH, B.S. and other investment banks began securitizing (packaging) pools of mortgage loans and issuing mortgage-secured bonds (a/k/a mortgage backed securities).

Everyone in the real estate, mortgage and construction industries were making money. But these refinances (most pocketing or reinvesting equity) and house flips artificially drove real estate prices higher. And then the bubble burst and we are now paying the consequences.
 
We not only lost the war, they played us for fools and now they are pissing on us and laughing about it.

Yep, and BTW what happend to going after the #1 terrorist of the global world OSAMA BIN LADEN (remember him and his goons)???? The guy who has been very vocal about killing as many of us as he can? You think you can take a few folks to go find him and start a war worth fighting?

You people need to get a grip and try to grasp what's important in protecting us and here's a clue. It's NOT staying in Iraq 100 years like McCain is okay with doing.
 
Oh come on.
Of course it matters.

We don't have the Oil you say the war was fought over, someone else does.
So by any standard or measurement you want to use... We lost.

All we Americans have to show for the war in Iraq is a lot of young dead and wounded Americans, a lot of Bad feelings toward us world wide, a Military that has been stretched past it's limits, reduced stature in the World and a huge debt that is leading us quickly towards another Great Depression.

The concern is market-wide oil shortage. For example, most of Iran's oil is sold to asian customers although an interuption (e.g. Israeli bombs) would cause a global oil crisis.
 
Yep, and BTW what happend to going after the #1 terrorist of the global world OSAMA BIN LADEN (remember him and his goons)???? The guy who has been very vocal about killing as many of us as he can? You think you can take a few folks to go find him and start a war worth fighting?

You people need to get a grip and try to grasp what's important in protecting us and here's a clue. It's NOT staying in Iraq 100 years like McCain is okay with doing.
thats the one thing that gets me, how damn hard is it to find a lil ole man on a donkey in pakistan pulling a dialysis(sp) machine, with all the resourses we have, i still dont understand that one, and yes im still voting for MCcain/Palin even though your votes will cancel mine out:D.....laurie
 
thats the one thing that gets me, how damn hard is it to find a lil ole man on a donkey in pakistan pulling a dialysis(sp) machine, with all the resourses we have, i still dont understand that one, and yes im still voting for MCcain/Palin even though your votes will cancel mine out:D.....laurie

The problem is though Laurie, that we never really looked for him...of course the White House and the media outlets made it appear as though we were but in reality there was no real reason to look for him when we knew all along where he was and still is...he has been on the CIA's payroll for over 20 years now..;)
 
Again, who killed the Kennedys?

I used Greenspan as an example because he is the democrats whipping boy de jour. He played only a small part in the current financial crisis.

The real reasons are not being discussed in the media because - everyone say it together - it is easier to blame George Bush than take personal responsibility.

Oversimplified but here goes: During the late 1990's, investors (individual and institutional) sought refuge in tangible assets due to volatility of the stock market. Real estate turned out to be the winner. As institutional investment began inflating real estate prices, Greenspan's Fed kept decreasing the overnight lending rate which drove down LIBOR and eventually the prime lending rate for individuals. These 2 factors lead to the rise of "flip this house". People bought houses, painted a room or two, and refinanced or sold it for much more. Mortgage brokers exaggerated applicant financials and appraisers became over generous with values. Mortgages on new purchases and refinances were booming but the banks were running out of money to lend due to the deposit/loan ratio requirement. Banks, of course, make money from the loan origination fees. Hence LEH, B.S. and other investment banks began securitizing (packaging) pools of mortgage loans and issuing mortgage-secured bonds (a/k/a mortgage backed securities).

Everyone in the real estate, mortgage and construction industries were making money. But these refinances (most pocketing or reinvesting equity) and house flips artificially drove real estate prices higher. And then the bubble burst and we are now paying the consequences.

Agreed, in part. (You have not seen me blame GWB for this, he has enough other things to take responsibility for like his Iraq War of Choice)
But I would like to point out that if the Banks and Stock Markets would not have been De-Regulated by the past conservative leaders of this country over the last forty years, none of this would have been possible, in other words, there never would have been a "Bubble" to burst in the first place.

The shady Banking practices like predatory lending and some of the shady Real estate Financing practices would never have been allowed to occur under the old regulations that were dismantled by the Republicans.
 
The shady Banking practices like predatory lending and some of the shady Real estate Financing practices would never have been allowed to occur under the old regulations that were dismantled by the Republicans.
Now that's a discussion that I'm ready to have (in a new thread). Hank Paulson got a $29 million bonus from his old company Leman and then Bush puts him in charge of the US Treasury and it's only NOW that he tells us there is a problem (after he got his bonus) with folks allowed to have "GOLDEN PARACHUTES" AFTER he begs the tax payers to bail them all out?
 
Now that's a discussion that I'm ready to have (in a new thread). Hank Paulson got a $29 million bonus from his old company Leman and then Bush puts him in charge of the US Treasury and it's only NOW that he tells us there is a problem (after he got his bonus) with folks allowed to have "GOLDEN PARACHUTES" AFTER he begs the tax payers to bail them all out?

Welcome to corrupt government and the good ole US of A !! ;)
 
Hank Paulson got a $29 million bonus from his old company Leman and then Bush puts him in charge of the US Treasury and it's only NOW that he tells us there is a problem (after he got his bonus) with folks allowed to have "GOLDEN PARACHUTES" AFTER he begs the tax payers to bail them all out?
I personally agree with Dr. Ron Paul, we should do away with the Federal Reserve System altogether. The current system breeds and feeds corruption. We need to get back to what our Founding Fathers had in mind, where Congress controls the money and financial policy's in public view, not some secretive private company, like the Federal Reserve, that masquerades as a federal agency when in fact it is a private company who's owners are kept secret by law...
 
Now that's a discussion that I'm ready to have (in a new thread). Hank Paulson got a $29 million bonus from his old company Leman and then Bush puts him in charge of the US Treasury and it's only NOW that he tells us there is a problem (after he got his bonus) with folks allowed to have "GOLDEN PARACHUTES" AFTER he begs the tax payers to bail them all out?

What I think they need is a GOLDEN SHOWER, not a golden parachute :D

*sorry, I couldn't pass that up, but we'd all love to do that to these a-holes*
 
I personally agree with Dr. Ron Paul, we should do away with the Federal Reserve System altogether. The current system breeds and feeds corruption. We need to get back to what our Founding Fathers had in mind, where Congress controls the money and financial policy's in public view, not some secretive private company, like the Federal Reserve, that masquerades as a federal agency when in fact it is a private company who's owners are kept secret by law...

Totally agree lots0, and I think we both know who really controls the IMF and the Federal Reserve...;)
 
A lot of misconceptions about the Fed:

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No misconceptions on my or Dr. Ron Paul's part.
There are 12 federal reserve Banks that make up the Ownership of the Federal Reserve System (
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)
Who owns and controls those 12 banks in fact controls the monetary policy of the US and the Federal Reserve System, those current federal reserve bank owners identities are protected by law. The law is in the URL I provided, you can read it for yourself.

A position on the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, is considered by the 'act' of Congress that created the Federal Reserve System to be an "advisory position" to be appointed by the President of the USA. The real control of US monetary policy since the Federal Reserve Act was put in place (much like the UGIEA was put in place), has always been with the private owner(s) of the 12 Banks that make up the Federal Reserve System.
 
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