ID verification before first depo: Would it bother you?

[jstrike]

Alright... next on the list here is the id verification question.

I personally hate having to go through hoops to verify my ID when I want to cash out of a site. I also don't really understand how that makes a casino much safer, since if the first deposit was a fraud, then they're on the hook for it anyway. I get why they do it, not wanting to drive new players away. I just think maybe it's a little shortsighted.

So here's what I got in mind. I'd like to know how players here would feel about this:

At some point, we're gonna have to check ID, so we oughta be up front and do it before the first deposit. But, just like I hate faxing my passport and credit card out to God-knows-who's gonna pick it up off some costa rican fax machine, I don't expect anyone else wants to do that either. So to verify your ID, you can click a skype link on the deposit form, or go to google chat or bonjour or AIM and make a video call the casino. You have to have a webcam. You video chat with one of our reps, who answers any questions the player has about the site, and asks the player to hold up a photo ID to her camera, so we can take a snapshot of it and match it to the player's face. Good as Vegas. As long as there's nothing that seems fake about the ID or the IP the player's calling from, the player's verified in less than 3 minutes for all depos & withdrawals. And never needs to be verified again unless there's some kind of problem where we think someone else might have gotten into the account. And the player gets to meet a casino rep face to face, be welcomed to the site in a human kind of way, and we get to meet the player and know who our customers are.

What do you think? Would that kind of thing make you more comfortable or less making a first deposit?

 

[MangoJ]

How long do you want your customers to wait for a video chat ?
They may wait 2 minutes before they walk off with (your) money.
So you need 24h service with more than a single operator.

Second: How do you judge a fake ID card ? Webcams may give you sub-megapixel resoluion. Together with poor lightning you won't see anything.

 

[jstrike]

What I'm thinking is, we have at least one rep online just for this, 24/7 from the time we open, and more as needed. Each conversation can be very short. There's also a central phone number for support or if no one's answering the video call.

The ID has to be readable, but I'm not worried about having a perfect image to check whether it's fake (it's easier to make a fake ID with photoshop and fax it, than show a physical fake to the camera anyway). The actual verification has more to do with reading the behavior of the player in a face to face conversation. I wrote a script, kind of, that doesn't really even involve questions...more just a selection of casual comments the reps can make, and see the response. You know, stuff like "Oh! You're a Pisces?" -- when we know from their ID that they'd be a Gemini if they were telling the truth. Things that ordinary people wouldn't notice, that would only throw someone off guard if they were trying to pass off a fraudulent ID or credit card. The idea came from reading about how El Al does airport security. So it's a lot more about our reading from a personal meeting, and less about the actual ID, which could be fake either way. Which is how Vegas does it anyway... I know, 'cause I used to gamble on a fake ID there when I was a kid. Self confidence is king...but sooner or later, they'll get the drop on you.

 

[PenDragyn21]

As someone who usually sends their documentation in before depositing, I don't mind upfront verification. I do mind being required to have a webcam. This is a whole different hassle than finding a photocopier and fax machine (or online free fax service) or e-mail and scanner/cell phone/digital camera/direct photocopier to pdf/e-mail. (Poor communication casino's part makes this seems like more a hassle than it is.)
Verification by webcam either requires me to go out and buy something I really don't want and have no use for other than this. I don't care how cheap they are, I'll either have to brave malls or wait for one arrive in the mail along with all the normal shipping fees and problems. :sniper: Using someone else's webcam may cause other issues because it will have a different IP address than the computer I plan to play on.

Natasha

 

[jstrike]

Thanks for the feedback, Natasha. Good to know.
I didn't know anybody made a habit of sending ID first even when it's not required. It makes a lot of sense.

I'm thinking if people don't have a webcam, I should set up a fax line and then ask them to call customer service for a quick conversation after they've sent in their ID. That's almost as good, although it would be nice to see everybody in person...

 

[Seventh777]

After just making my 1st withdrawal with 32Red I rang their customer service up, just to see if I needed to send in any documents, and the rather cute sounding rep replied `No, that`s fine, we have already verified you`, that is why MG = head>shoulders>above>rest imo, any merchants dealing with cash transactions have so many tools at their disposal to verify identities (electoral role, credit agencies, etc, etc).

It really is way over me why this beyond annoying obstacle is put there in the 1st place, it has become nothing more than fuel for the Rogue casino`s to burn, delaying paying out winners whilst using this aspect to their benefit, and keeping hold of peoples cash for as long as they possibly can.

None of the top UK casinos - Ladbrokes, Virgin, Sky to name but three ask for documentation, and neither did any MG casino i`ve ever cashed out at, if these casinos that press for docs upon withdrawals or upon registration, are so concerned about fraud, money laundering, under age gambling, then why are they so easily satisfied upon receiving documents that can be freely bought on the internet?.

Unless you are standing there face to face with the person whom is pleading their case, photo id`s (easily bought online just try googling it), utility bills (pulled from peoples trash cans), credit/debit cards (borrowed from big brother/sister/friend), mean nothing, seriously.... What do they prove?.

 

[greasemonkey]

I don't mind doc verification the way it is done now EXCEPT that it is just dishonest to ask for them AFTER deposits and before payouts. This is done under the guise of "protection". That is stupid and obvious. The protection should be done prior to them accepting deposits. They should NOT accept one deposit prior to getting documents. They wont because they want to keep your money. Make you jump through hoops (club world) and hopefully your addiction kicks in and you lose before they pay you.

It is dishonest and scummy to take a deposit without docs but not make a payout.

 

[P.V.]

After just making my 1st withdrawal with 32Red I rang their customer service up, just to see if I needed to send in any documents, and the rather cute sounding rep replied `No, that`s fine, we have already verified you`, that is why MG = head>shoulders>above>rest imo, any merchants dealing with cash transactions have so many tools at their disposal to verify identities (electoral role, credit agencies, etc, etc).

It really is way over me why this beyond annoying obstacle is put there in the 1st place, it has become nothing more than fuel for the Rogue casino`s to burn, delaying paying out winners whilst using this aspect to their benefit, and keeping hold of peoples cash for as long as they possibly can.

None of the top UK casinos - Ladbrokes, Virgin, Sky to name but three ask for documentation, and neither did any MG casino i`ve ever cashed out at, if these casinos that press for docs upon withdrawals or upon registration, are so concerned about fraud, money laundering, under age gambling, then why are they so easily satisfied upon receiving documents that can be freely bought on the internet?.

Unless you are standing there face to face with the person whom is pleading their case, photo id`s (easily bought online just try googling it), utility bills (pulled from peoples trash cans), credit/debit cards (borrowed from big brother/sister/friend), mean nothing, seriously.... What do they prove?.

They are obviously satisfied with their internal checks done during registration.

Address validation, name and address check, home phone number check, date of birth database check, IP address check, fraud sanctions and AMI alert check. Just to name a few.

The above type internal checks help but in addition sites take it a step further by requesting ID, proof of address, employment, utility bill for hard copy proof. Most hold this information on file.

32 Red has proof of ID listed and by fax. This puts them in a position where they could still ask you for a hard copy if they feel the need.

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Getting back to jstrike's initial question. I don't like the idea of verification by a video cam. I think most people would feel that this was too personal of an approach.

Also people can have a picture ID which is valid but their appearance or current state might make them look much different when viewing them from a cam holding the ID.

 

[skiny]

Can I be the person video verifying the IDs? PLEASE?

"Hold your ID up higher ma'am. Higher. Sorry Higher. Still can't see it. Get up on your chair."

"Sorry buddy, you don't pass. And put some pants on or I'm calling your wife."

"Hey, it's true! The camera does put on 10 lbs."

"I'm not accepting any deposits until you get a haircut... Hurry back."

"Your account says you're 28 ma'am. Was that a typo?"

"LOOK BEHIND YOU!!. Just kidding."

"Hey, you're the chick from Starbucks! Now I know where you live. "

"Your account says Arkansas. Could you point the camera out your window please?"

"Hmm. The image is coming in upside down for some reason. Could you turn your chair around and tip your head back 180 degrees?"

"Mom?!!!.... Oh, sorry sir."

Hell, I could do that all day and then some.

 

[3mptyseat]

If the casino were asking to see my bank statement and all my cc's before I made a deposit, I might be suspicious. But I would gladly pre-identify myself during the registration process...

 

[greasemonkey]

The truth of the matter is that usemywallet or neteller or click to pay or whatever your payment method (so long as it is an ewallet) is going to do a MUCH more stringent check to make sure it is you than a casino will do. That is why they accept the deposit. They already know you are good to go since you have an ewallet opened and approved. The process after that is trying to figure out how to not pay you.

 

[rockycatt]

The truth of the matter is that usemywallet or neteller or click to pay or whatever your payment method (so long as it is an ewallet) is going to do a MUCH more stringent check to make sure it is you than a casino will do. That is why they accept the deposit. They already know you are good to go since you have an ewallet opened and approved. The process after that is trying to figure out how to not pay you.

actually i believe that if you go in with a e wallet than thats all they need to know
because they already got a relationship with the ewallet company

even if your wanted by the F B I wats that got to do with them there paying the ewallet

if whitey bulger goes into a b&m casino pays for a room and all gets a cash advance from a account he has established

spends 10,000.00 and leaves big deal all got paid but he is still a wanted man

 

[P.V.]

actually i believe that if you go in with a e wallet than thats all they need to know
because they already got a relationship with the ewallet company

even if your wanted by the F B I wats that got to do with them there paying the ewallet

if whitey bulger goes into a b&m casino pays for a room and all gets a cash advance from a account he has established

spends 10,000.00 and leaves big deal all got paid but he is still a wanted man

Don't think so. Any licensed casino must do their own player verification and not rely solely on an e-wallet verification.

Not saying it doesn't add an additional step towards verifying but can't be the sole factor. Wouldn't be in the best interest of a casino.

 

[jstrike]

Can I be the person video verifying the IDs? PLEASE?

"Hold your ID up higher ma'am. Higher. Sorry Higher. Still can't see it. Get up on your chair."

Hah. You're hired.

 

[jstrike]

In general I have to come down on the side of the casino doing some kind of verification on its own. Especially when accepting CCs. I agree completely that a lot of roguish joints use the hoops before withdrawal as a way of holding onto your money, and it works. I mean, Bodog did that to me years ago on a withdrawal and lo and behold I ended up playing it away before I got around to faxing them anything. So yeah, I think it's scummy to take a deposit and then ask you for ID before withdrawal.

The reason I think verification does need to be done by casinos is to prevent fraud and laundering, and that should be done before the first deposit, because the point is I want the player to know that we know who they are. All bullshit aside, this isn't really about the player's safety -- although if we have a photo of them, and someone steals their identity and/or account info, we can verify who we're talking to with another quick video call.

The main reason as I see it is to prevent the casino from becoming a conduit for people to move money to each other at our expense. I mean, we're going to be paying a big fee on every CC transaction, forget about chargebacks, and on every other kind of transaction too. For the same reason I wrote code to track for chip dumping, I want to have some kind of insurance that the person putting the money in is going to be the same person taking it out.

Now there may be a lot of cases where no IDV would be needed at all, where a guy comes on and deposits and you can tell by his play or his chat entries or from a public database that he's who he says he is. And if I were going to wait until withdrawal to IDV somebody, that guy might get a pass. But it just makes sense to me to block out the nonsense at the beginning. I'm also opening a very small house. We're going to be running this thing on two servers at the start, and the most players we can accommodate at one time is somewhere around a few hundred. A dozen frauds could sink the ship. So I reckon this is more like a private club, and it should be tighter knit and have a more personal approach to everything. And if it means IDV on everyone before deposit to keep out the bad guys, it's more work for me but I think it's worth it to keep the deck clean. As long as serious players wouldn't find that too much of a burden to do up front.

 

[jelsmith]

Can I be the person video verifying the IDs? PLEASE?

"Hold your ID up higher ma'am. Higher. Sorry Higher. Still can't see it. Get up on your chair."

"Sorry buddy, you don't pass. And put some pants on or I'm calling your wife."

"Hey, it's true! The camera does put on 10 lbs."

"I'm not accepting any deposits until you get a haircut... Hurry back."

"Your account says you're 28 ma'am. Was that a typo?"

"LOOK BEHIND YOU!!. Just kidding."

"Hey, you're the chick from Starbucks! Now I know where you live. "

"Your account says Arkansas. Could you point the camera out your window please?"

"Hmm. The image is coming in upside down for some reason. Could you turn your chair around and tip your head back 180 degrees?"

"Mom?!!!.... Oh, sorry sir."

Hell, I could do that all day and then some.

 

[Jasminebed]

I would think that video ID verification would have to be one of a number of options for players. Many times I get my ID verified in advance. I had a small verification problem once (my government ID does not have my address), and it's been advice from members I respect.

I think that allowing one limited deposit without verification might be acceptable, or just with a phone verification, but with the understanding proper ID must be presented for withdrawal.

Bet365 only allows one deposit, then you must wait for snail mail and enter a verification code sent to you before making either a first withdrawal or further deposits. This strikes me as a reasonable middle ground.

I usually only try a new casino if I have a little "extra" money, so a delay accepting my deposit might result in me never returning.

You may also be overestimating your ability to judge people via a jerky video chat.

While I do have a video camera built into my netbook, I've never skyed, AIMed or google messaged. You'd have to have a live chat ready to walk me through all of that, and I'm not that keen on installing software I don't especially need.

I think it would have to be an option, not a requirement.

 

[footdr]

I agree to I.D. documents first if......

they are going to require more then a copy of your Drivers license and utility bill. Why, because if they require more then that when you deposit via an ewallet, I won't deposit there to begin with.

Many casinos require documentation first when attempting to use debit card or credit. O.k. thats their rule. So if I want to play their I comply with the request.

 

[dazlazz]

I.D checks required before 1st deposit at any casino \ gaming co regulated by the English regulatory authority - reason? Age verifcation.

CC deposits can be name and address verified by the casino with the isssuing bank - so other reason for verification is if CC holders sibling is having fun with his \ her CC.

I think the video check idea, although interesting is similar to phone verification.

The Operator Video quote wasa funny! Mee-a-like!!

Regards,

Dazzla

 

[The Viking]

the video think could be a good idea although at first it might take a long time to get trhough when all the new players are flooding in i personally always send my docs to verify strait after i make my first deposit just incase i get lucky and withdraw then all is set

 

[Simmo!]

Bottom line for me is if I already knew and trusted the brand I wouldn't have a problem with it, but if it was a name I didn't know I would be less inclinded to do so.

 

[Webzcas]

Bottom line for me is if I already knew and trusted the brand I wouldn't have a problem with it, but if it was a name I didn't know I would be less inclinded to do so.

But then you probably wouldn't be playing there anyhow

 

[petkaymad]

I like the idea of complete identification prior to deposit, it then gets rid of all the hassle and pain of doing it just prior to withdrawal.

Too many times I have lost my money in the past due to thinking "stuff it" and playing one with what I was going to withdraw and finding that all of a sudden my "luck" has changed and I lose the money after making a withdrawal request and being declined.

I have never in my experience so far ever had to provide the amount of documentation High Noon made me provide just to make my withdrawal and even after I had provided the documenation my withdrawal was declined. It took me well over 10 days after I had provided the documentation before they let me have my money. It goes without saying that I closed my account as soon as I had my money.

 

[bsilva028]

.

a good solution (it works for me) is
send your documents and utility bill, in the same day that you create the account, and when you made a deposit by credit card, send a copy of the card 5 or 10 minutes after made the deposit