How would you feel if a bonus was structured like this?

[jstrike]

Okay...first post in the "I'm starting a casino, tell me what you'd like to see" series... first off, thanks for the welcome here and let me know if I'm posting this to the wrong board.

I can't afford to give out major bonuses at first, and I don't want to attract people who are going to just come in to play a bonus through and then jet. At the same time, I don't think it's fair for a casino to give a bonus and then require an absurd number of playthroughs or even worse, withhold winnings on the bonus in the same way. So I think I hit on a formula that will be attractive to real players and unattractive to scrapers. Tell me what you think:

We keep track of the player's total bets over all time. We ask for 15 playthroughs of a bonus, and one playthrough of a deposit, and the formula is very simple.

((deposits-withdrawals)+(bonus*15)-totalbets)/15 = current withholding.

So if a player puts in $100 and gets a $25 bonus, her initial withholding is $31.67. The beauty of it is that if she bets $25 and wins, she can withdraw the winnings immediately -- her account now has $150 and her withholding goes down to $30, so she can take out $120 right away.

Or, lets say a player already has played $500 in total bets on a previous $100 deposit. She could get that $25 bonus and cash it immediately with no withholding or playthroughs, since they're already covered.

On the other hand, if in the first case she has that $100+$25 and loses it all on the first bet, she'd still have $23.33 withheld on her account the next time she deposited (plus 1/15th of whatever the next deposit was), until she'd played $23.33 * 15 in bets.

So what do you think? Do you see problems in this system? Would it appeal to you as a player, and would it make you more loyal to the casino, knowing that once you built up your total bets, future bonuses would be free money? Any and all advice is welcome!

 

[ksech]

Welcome to the forum...
Ahhh, you lost me after your thank you, but I've been up for almost 24 hrs so not much is making sense right now. I'm sure some who enjoy using bonuses will chime in with their opinions.

 

[hitobito2005]

You're gonna end up losing lots of money unless your games have a HA of about 7%

Or you don't give out much bonus funds.

Also:

On the other hand, if in the first case she has that $100+$25 and loses it all on the first bet, she'd still have $23.33 withheld on her account the next time she deposited (plus 1/15th of whatever the next deposit was), until she'd played $23.33 * 15 in bets.

This is a very bad idea because it encourages people to go to another casino instead where there will be no restrictions on their deposit.

 

[X-Raided]

Okay...first post in the "I'm starting a casino, tell me what you'd like to see" series... first off, thanks for the welcome here and let me know if I'm posting this to the wrong board.

I can't afford to give out major bonuses at first, and I don't want to attract people who are going to just come in to play a bonus through and then jet. At the same time, I don't think it's fair for a casino to give a bonus and then require an absurd number of playthroughs or even worse, withhold winnings on the bonus in the same way. So I think I hit on a formula that will be attractive to real players and unattractive to scrapers. Tell me what you think:

We keep track of the player's total bets over all time. We ask for 15 playthroughs of a bonus, and one playthrough of a deposit, and the formula is very simple.

((deposits-withdrawals)+(bonus*15)-totalbets)/15 = current withholding.

So if a player puts in $100 and gets a $25 bonus, her initial withholding is $31.67. The beauty of it is that if she bets $25 and wins, she can withdraw the winnings immediately -- her account now has $150 and her withholding goes down to $30, so she can take out $120 right away.

Or, lets say a player already has played $500 in total bets on a previous $100 deposit. She could get that $25 bonus and cash it immediately with no withholding or playthroughs, since they're already covered.

On the other hand, if in the first case she has that $100+$25 and loses it all on the first bet, she'd still have $23.33 withheld on her account the next time she deposited (plus 1/15th of whatever the next deposit was), until she'd played $23.33 * 15 in bets.

So what do you think? Do you see problems in this system? Would it appeal to you as a player, and would it make you more loyal to the casino, knowing that once you built up your total bets, future bonuses would be free money? Any and all advice is welcome!

IMO, I found it all to be confusing, unappealing and flat-out silly.
(No offense)

When I gamble, I only care about how much I'm up, and how
much I'm down. I don't want to be linked to bonus jargon
that confuses me and rejects my temptation to withdraw when I'm
up. Bonuses shouldn't be math equations. Stick to the basics, jstrike.

As a matter of fact, bonuses IMO are worthless... There, I said it

 

[silcnlayc]

X-Raided: As a matter of fact, bonuses IMO are worthless... There, I said it

Um, yea what X-Raided said....

If you feel you MUST give a bonus, why not just a basic 10% depost bonus with 5x playthrough and call it even just to get visitors...anything other than that...you might as well be just like any other joe out there offering games IMO...some live by bonuses, others feel bonuses actually take away from thier winning experience since the casino MUST try to make up all the freebies they give out...someone has to cough up the freebies...I actually think they hurt everyone in the long run the way they work now...those that take a bonus must be obsorbed by those that do not by the casinos bottom line...

So all in all, EVERYONE ends up losing ITLR by taking bonuses....

.

 

[jstrike]

I agree with you, X. I think bonuses are a bunch of bull, and especially when they come with a lot of rules...and players like you are the guys I want to have, guys who want to just come and find a good game. In fact, I was never planning on doing any bonuses at all, just a really good player points system. But there's so much bonus junk out there now that I think I have to have some kinda promotional thing I can do too.

I think maybe I didn't explain myself well. Basically it's supposed to be waaay more simple than what other casinos do. I'm making it sound too complicated. All it is is, when you get a bonus, you also get a withholding for that bonus until you play it 15 times. The bonus and the withholding stay with you whether you win or lose. You keep all the winnings, but the withholding stays on your account even if you lose the bonus.

@liquid: I don't think this will drive the serious players away, and I don't think I'll lose money (the HA averages around 2.5% depending on the game, but more like 1.6% on Roulette, possibly as low as 0.5% on some of the new games I wrote based on perfect play, and anywhere from 3% to 10% on slots depending on how people play; standard 5% rake on poker), but as you pointed out, that's exactly because with this kind of bonus I can't go offering big huge 100%+ cash on deposits. Actually, I'm only planning on giving out 25% bonuses, up to $100 on a $400 deposit. Maybe 35% for VIP's. But the way this figures, I'd probably lose about half of every 25% bonus I give away if players play perfectly. If having a later withholding drives away the people who are only there for the bonus, that's good...I'm still keeping 6% on deposits until they're played through once, so I should break a few dollars short of even on those players, but meanwhile I got the word out. And at the same time, it's not sticky, it's not "phantom", it's just really simple and rolling depending on how much a player bets over time. At least, that's what I'm thinking.

 

[rockycatt]

i dont take bonuses xcept at 3dice 5x thats a fair

but isn't some have two tare coin box you can cash out as long as you haven't exhausted your deposite seems to me [i might be wrong ] but microgaming was /is like that please chime in if im off base

 

[X-Raided]

i dont take bonuses xcept at 3dice 5x thats a fair

Yeah, I figured out the method of madness behind 3Dice's
low 5, 10 & 15 X WR on the Deposit + Bonus...

It's because it's unlikely you'll get to surpass the low
wagering requirements there to make a cash-out.

Expired Image

 

[skiny]

You know what would be a real bonus? Not going broke in 20 minutes.

 

[Jasminebed]

I think your proposed system sounds too complicated. When systems are complicated, possibilities for misinterpretations abound. You plan on doing your own support, and yet you are having problems explaining clearly and concisely to experienced players.

It sounds like your casino will mostly consist of table games, and most casinos carry higher playthrough for table games.

Players have come to expect SUBs, so to attract new players, you will have to be competitive. A player that wins will usually return, unless you have some kind of penalty (like withdrawing bonuses). You can minimize the cost to your business by limiting the amount you match, and maybe even by imposing a max cashout, especially if there are no progressive prizes a player might forfeit.

The 3Dice bonuses are with the exception of the SUB a reward for loyalty, and not all players get the same matches monthly.

I don't really have an answer for you on how to offer an attractive bonus, but a complicated one will only attract the bonus hunters (and that's not be be confused with abusers), and casual players will be offput.

I think the ideal bonus reduces the house edge, not eliminates it, so you are on the right track there, but you need a less complicated model IMO.

 

[Jasminebed]

ss, double post

 

[rockycatt]

THIS MUST BE A GLITCH POST/MISSCLICK SEE BELOW

 

[rockycatt]

Yeah, I figured out the method of madness behind 3Dice's
low 5, 10 & 15 X WR on the Deposit + Bonus...

It's because it's unlikely you'll get to surpass the low
wagering requirements there to make a cash-out.

Expired Image

i dont see what your getting at besides spotlighting some dialog from enzo

but i think he is trying to tell peeps not to be grandiose in there gambling mind set

as far as there bonuses go 5x ive never failed to make w/r there now cashing out after making w/r is another thing if i deposited 25.00$ and come through with 40.00$ im not going to bother them to pay out under 100.00$ so im looking for a 75.00$ gain to make me happy and be fair to 3 dice , not to ask them to pay a lot of mini payouts

enzo and the dice team really dont need any help proving any thing

but i make this comment for the new player with a thirst for fair gameing

further more this is not a shot at you its just my honest opinion
theres way more to dice than meets the eye [experience the 3 dice family of friends ]
thanx for your time R C

 

[incrediblestuff]

hi jstrike:

im only interested in bonuses when im low on cash, and then id mostly go for a 100% match, with low playthrough (max 40x dep+bonus)

other then that, the only bonuses are cashback, and no deposit bonuses, if possible w/o playthrough or in case of NDB abig playtrough with no silly max withdrawal of ten times bonus.

thats all i have to say on bonuses

other promotions/extras would be a nice vip program, either including the prementioned bonuses or with some new ideas...
GL with your casino, and im waiting anxiously to see

 

[chayton]

There was one casino I played at (can't for the life of me remember who it was - for some reason I'm thinking Spin Palace but I could be wrong) that used to not give a bonus til after you'd deposited and played. If you won on your deposit and cashed out, you didn't get the bonus, if you lost the deposit then you got the bonus - sort of a second chance deal or a 'consolation' bonus. Then the bonus was subject to WR.

I liked it - my original deposit didn't have any kind of strings attached so if I was lucky enough to hit something right away (yeah right) I could still cash out and forfeit the bonus bucks that were coming. If my luck sucked (more believable) I knew I'd get another chance.

JF has a similar deal going on right now - deposit at least $50 and if you don't cash out, you get some free spins or something.

Those kinds of bonuses appeal more to me because if I take a bonus I don't do it so I can bet higher, usually it's just to play longer. But that's just me.

 

[X-Raided]

i dont see what your getting at besides spotlighting some dialog from enzo

but i think he is trying to tell peeps not to be grandiose in there gambling mind set

as far as there bonuses go 5x ive never failed to make w/r there now cashing out after making w/r is another thing if i deposited 25.00$ and come through with 40.00$ im not going to bother them to pay out under 100.00$ so im looking for a 75.00$ gain to make me happy and be fair to 3 dice , not to ask them to pay a lot of mini payouts

enzo and the dice team really dont need any help proving any thing

but i make this comment for the new player with a thirst for fair gameing

further more this is not a shot at you its just my honest opinion
theres way more to dice than meets the eye [experience the 3 dice family of friends ]
thanx for your time R C

I respect what your saying Rockycatt but I'm speaking from
my personal experience at 3Dice.

I think 3Dice is not for the $10-$50 depositors. I failed to make a cash-out
numerous times with low deposits there.

3Dice is one of those casinos where you deposit big and you win big IMO.

Also, that quote I put from Enzo was just a reminder, not some sort
of shot at him.

But back to the bonus issue and topic of this thread,
I still think the bonuses at 3Dice have lower WR because
it's harder to make a cash-out there.

 

[elscrabinda]

You say you don't like complicated bonuses and then you expect your players to get their head round a bizarre formula?

Also, in your example where the witholding carries over even if you lose your entire deposit and bonus, what possible reason is there for a player to deposit a second time after losing their first when they could just play at a different casino with a clean slate?

Your first idea was much better (a good loyalty scheme) and much more likely to attract and retain the kind of players you want instead of professional advantage players who are the ones who will bother to learn your complicated system.

 

[jstrike]

I know this sounds kinda nuts, but I believe in making withdrawals really easy. I think the first deposit should be hard, and I'm looking at setting deposit limits at the beginning. I think if players know they can't deposit again for a week, they'll be less likely to withdraw their entire balance. Kind of like reverse psychology.

As far as the bonus -- I think I can make it clear. I really want it to be clear. In the most basic terms, it's a simple 15x requirement. The only thing different about it is that the WR are met in realtime, and they're rolling. The bonuses won't be treated like separate money that you can't pull out until you've cleared the whole thing. For every 15¢ you play through, you clear 1¢ of your bonus for withdrawal immediately. Or you get the same amount of credit against your next bonus WR, if you've already cleared the last one. And it's done by keeping a running "withholding" on each player's account.

If you get a bonus for $10, you get a withholding of $150, that applies to your whole account. For every $15 you play, your withholding goes down by $1. The player can see the exact withholding and exact withdrawable amount in real time. If you play more than 15x, your withholding will go negative. If your withholding is down to -$150, then the next time you get a $10 bonus your withholding goes back up to $0, which means you can withdraw that bonus immediately if you want to. So if you meet the WR for one bonus twice, the next bonus has no WR. If you don't meet the WR for the first bonus, the next bonus has its own WR plus whatever was left over from the first bonus.

That's why I think it will encourage long-term players instead of players who hit and run. Does that make more sense? ...Jasmine, I'm still testing this idea out which is why maybe it sounded unintelligible the first time I wrote it...but definitely if I'm going to go with it, the key will be to make it really easy for the player to figure out exactly where he or she stands at all times re. the WR. So this is a good thought experiment, asking the question here.

 

[jstrike]

Okay. I worked it out. Real simple, I think this is what I'm going to do:

30x play-throughs on all bonuses and comps. It's rolling, so it's immediate: You get $1 of your bonus freed up for every $30 you play. If you lose the bonus and the deposit, the house will clear your remaining WR as long as you haven't withdrawn since you got the bonus. If you win with it, and play more than the WR, the extra plays roll over into your next bonus, making the next one easier to withdraw. Bonuses around 25%. End of story.

How does that sound?

 

[Jasminebed]

That does sound much simpler. I'd think you would find players would be happy to take a 25% bonus if winnings were withdrawable at any time. You might not even have to roll it over $1 at a time, Microgaming players are used to $10 at a time, so you could do $5 at a time and still have happy customers.

If you plan on having 30x wagering on comps (if you mean loyalty rewards instead of free chips), that's a bit steep I feel.

If you mostly have table games, you may have to weight them for WRs. But don't make any play restricted, or grounds for voiding winnings please. But you'll want to make hedge bets on roulette or such not count towards wagering.

 

[jstrike]

The WR would apply to bonuses and could apply to comps and affiliate rewards, or not, depending on what kind of comp or reward the player was getting. There's also a whole separate player points system I built that can be redeemed for tournament buyins, etc., and are earned on any bet, whether or not it's going toward a WR.

The only restrictions I was thinking I'd put on, besides against hedging roulette or craps bets, was to just list very clearly in the terms of service that a couple of games aren't eligible for WR. That would be single deck blackjack (we allow up to 3 seats per player... scary), 36:1 american roulette, and a bonus poker game I wrote that gives the player three optional card flips (pick a color at 2:1 or a suit at 4:1) on every win, out of the same single deck as the main hand, which is actually EV+ for the player. (I'm counting on the psychology of greed with that one). These games are all so close if played right that they're all basically a hedge bet in themselves.

Do you think it'd be better not to have any games blocked from WR...? I'd probably have to make it up then by going to 40x or 50x... you said no restrictions but I'm not sure if you mean on whole games or what...

 

[Jasminebed]

I think it is fine to have games blocked from meeting WR. What is NOT fine IMO is to have game play that the software allows you to place bets on which would disqualify your winnings while a bonus is active.

For instance, you would not allow 36:1 Roulette to count, but if I have a bonus and I go play roulette, I could win and then go on to play something else that will clear my WR, without all my winnings being voided.

If you really don't want players playing a certain game(s) while a bonus is active, then have the software block it until the wagering is met. Some casinos don't even allow play on disallowed games after a wagering has been met, yet accept bets.

And its also fine to have slot or keno play count 100%, Video poker 10 percent, Single Deck Blackjack 2%, etc.

 

[jstrike]

I think it is fine to have games blocked from meeting WR. What is NOT fine IMO is to have game play that the software allows you to place bets on which would disqualify your winnings while a bonus is active.

Cool, thanks for explaining that. I'd never heard of casinos doing that before, but that's just filthy and sneaky as far as I'm concerned. I'd never consider doing anything like that. Now, I'm not looking to start a welfare program off these bonuses, so I'm gonna keep them low, but I'm not about to start taking back gifts. It would have to be a serious abuse, like, a guy played $3000 of craps backing up the Pass and Don't Pass at the same time, or two guys sit down on a poker table and just fold to each other until they clear their bonuses, and cash out. And that second thing would trip off my collusion and money laundering alarms way before they cleared their WR. Even under those circumstances, they'd probably just get their deposit back and a lifetime ban.

 

[PenDragyn21]

No casino software I've seen so far prevents you placing any bet you want so long as it's under the table limits. Casinos usually handle no such functionality in the software by listing in the T&C or bonus terms don't play certain games. Many on here say the software should prevent these bets entirely.
I suggest if you go the route of having the software block restricted bets, have a backup plan in place for the hue and cry that will ensue when either it prevents an allowed bet or let's a bet go through that shouldn't.