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High Noon Casino account closed - student issue

Just a short one. Here is what OP is referring to:
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From that text: In Finland, gymnasiums concludes with the matriculation exam (Abitur), an exam whose grades are the main criteria for college admissions.
Nothing to do with college or uni.
Edit: everone here knows what they are referring to with college, trying to find reasons to justify the casinos actions is pathetic beyond belief.
And of course the casino should pay. Write better T&Cs next time.
 
When I was in high school, I would not have said I was in College or University if asked.

When there's a list of education completed, high school, college and university are listed separately.

In the USA, yes that's correct.

However most other countries have different names for different levels of education. e.g. a college in Australia can be a high school.

The only fact we have to work with is the actual definition of 'college' i.e. a school for students after the age of 16

I think some are also forgetting that the OP did not read the terms before he played which means he didn't even have the opportunity to consider what his status might be as far as CWC was concerned.

How can a casino deny paying a student, if that student reads the T&C's, and doesn't deposit there to begin with?

Exactly. If the OP had read the terms we may not even be discussing this at all.

As I said it's a stupid term and should be removed....however, technically, the casino is correct in regarding the OP as a college student. The only way he could be considered otherwise is to be classed as a high school student in the spirit of the term - and it has already been argued that this is not acceptable.
 
I side 100% with the player on this one.

The sentence from the T&Cs is well written in English and it is very clear that they do not want (specifically) college or university students. There is no reason to think it applies to high school students (or culinary school, acting school, or any other students for that matter).

They probably banned college student because of bonus abuse in the dorms and on share university computers, and the sentence was presumably reviewed by their legal team before posting it.

They should pay and then change the sentence on the website.
 
Got a bonus, made playthrough, made a deposit and was ready to make a 320$ withdraw...
They called me and asked a couple of questions, the last one was if I'm a student. I answered yes and they closed my account.



However I'm neither college nor university student, I'm in high school.
I told this in live chat, that didn't help much but I was advised to send an email.

Sent an email and was answered that I can't play because university is higher than high school.
I asked them to atleast let me have my bonus winnings that I got before I was first told high school students can't play. I think it would be pretty appropriate.

I dont know the whole story here,but from what i read so far,I think the casino has every rite to close your account.And for you to expect anything else from this casino is highly and justifyably unlikely .If i were you!! I woulden`t waist my money on online casinos unless you play for fun.Otherwise your chances of winning for real will be non void..:)
Haven't been answered to that yet.

But good luck in your studies :)
 
Just a short one. Here is what OP is referring to:
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From that text: In Finland, gymnasiums concludes with the matriculation exam (Abitur), an exam whose grades are the main criteria for college ...
But when you submit your Abitur to a university in the States, they give you credit for the first two years of college study :p
 
Foggy formulated term indeed. If the casino is so concerned with players' welfare (protecting students), it should at least pay him back his deposit, which they did not, as I understand. This, however, clearly contradicts their policy of protecting said students.


I see your point there about the deposite part...however.The rules are there and clearly state the policies on students.If students are allowed to gamble online then it sets a new standard,and a new race of online gambling addiction issues.I think that college and cosy gambling is not a good mix.Gambling should be taken seriously when playing and paying real money.Best advice before even thinking about it is to come to places like this first.Or stick with "freeplay"

I `am talking from personal expiereance here...I did a report and "review" of over 70 casinos 10 years ago,as a (via distant student project) cumminity online studies..I have downloaded all of them,played,and did a evaluation report from the worst to the best,and in dealing with all ereas .The casinos dident even know i was doing this until I emailed the results to them.This was a "independant" report.It dealt with all software providers,liciencing,juristdictions,live chat, emails ,deposit methods,and overall players pleasure indexed report.I used all the bonuses i could find and spent well over $100,and won $650 from "Vagas Palms",and Ruby casino ranked one of the best overall microgamming.

Having all this said i still had problems recently with a withdrawl.however after endless days of we reached a deal.So now I found this place,and wished i did years ago.Here ,this place will help you to see the good,the bad,and the ugly just like Clint Eastwood lol Anyway I think that you should always do your research,and look for ever changing rules and policies before you even think about paying and winning real money :D.
 
The provisions reads-


"1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Full time students aged 25 or under who are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino."

The exclusion rule clearly has two conditions...the first being under the age of 25 and a full time student (which he readily admitted he was)...and ...enrolled in a "College or University", which he clearly is not.

Not to muddy the waters, what happens if you are a part-time student at a "College or University"? Would you pay him?

Pay the guy his money!
 
Only for IB (International Baccalaureate) Diploma Programme.

Nope, sorry dude. The Abitur takes care of the first two years of general studies at most Universities. In California's State University system it will knock out your first two years of history, language studies, science, and math. That's a fact, Jack :thumbsup:
 
Nope, sorry dude. The Abitur takes care of the first two years of general studies at most Universities. In California's State University system it will knock out your first two years of history, language studies, science, and math. That's a fact, Jack :thumbsup:

Really?
Doubt it for the Finnish matriculation examination. From Finland its only IBDP AFAIK.
 
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OK...

We seem to have two completely different (and valid) points-of-view here.

Opinion 1. The OP apparently did not read the terms of HNC, signed up anyway, deposited his money (which the casino freely allowed him to do, as I can only assume has been stipulated to), won a nice & tidy sum, requested a withdrawal, and had his winnings denied because the casino asked him if he was a "student" and the OP replied in the affirmative. At the very least, this player should have his deposit returned and his account then locked (The opinion of the minority so far).

Opinion 2. The OP, despite being 18 and still in high school, and even though replying to the casino in the affirmative of being a student does not clearly and concisely fall within the definition of being a "student" in HNC's terms, since the term "high school" is not specified... only "college or university." The OP should be paid his winnings, and the casino should, once again, revise their terms (the majority opinion).

Players and casinos will never agree on how terms are to be interpreted. The player's view is that they should be interpreted strictly to the letter of the term, with no allowance for any ambiguity whatsoever. If the term's actual wording has not been broken, there has been no violation. The casino's view is that the terms should be implemented as fairly as possible, but may include "the spirit of the term" which includes things not generally specified in the wording. If the term (or the spirit of the term) has been broken, then the player has violated the terms and receives no payout.

You are never going to change this view from either side, as both sides will tell you that it is in their best interest to keep their view tilted in their favor. But casinos have to understand how players think - A player looking for some fun decides to deposit a bit, gets lucky and wins. The player is under the impression that the casino will pay them no matter what. As long as the player has not willfully misrepresented themselves, committed fraud or other acts of negligence, and has otherwise complied with the standards of a reasonable person, but violates one term many may consider to be "ambiguous", pay the player, close their account, and send the player an explanation of why the account has been locked AFTER you have paid the player.

But, the reverse is also true - players must understand that casinos will get taken to the cleaners and would cease to exist without implementing at least some terms and conditions of playing at the casino. Fraud, negligence and willful misrepresentation are just some of the things casinos have to deal with on a daily basis - this is true for not just online casinos, but B&M ones as well. I would hope that everyone here would know and understand that if you brought a fake ID into a B&M casino, you would get tossed out on your butt just as fast as you walked in. This is a clear example of fraud.

Ambiguities in terms usually side with the consumer. They are better off than when they started, and they can go on their merry way after the matter has been settled. For the business, it means taking a small hit to satisfy a lot of customers down the road.

You would never hear of something like this happening in a B&M casino. If a 22-year-old student at the University of Michigan walked into Greektown Casino in Detroit, plopped down $100,000 of their education money on one hand of high-roller blackjack, and lost, you would (most likely) never hear of them complaining "I was a student, so they never should have let me place that bet!" If they were lucky and won, the casino would pay them, not tell them "Sorry, that was your education money, so the win is void, here's your bet back." It's a bad business decision and an almost-guaranteed way of losing customers due to something only the casino knew about, and not the player.

The casino needs to swallow its pride and pay the player. They then need to either a) add a line or two to the signup form that asks if they are a student - if yes is answered, ban the player immediately and do not allow deposits in the first place, or b) change the term to reflect the following:

"Any person signing up to the casino that meets any of the following conditions shall not be permitted to make deposits or withdrawals:

- Persons between the ages of 18 and 25 currently attending any type of primary or secondary school, including high school, college, university or post-secondary education
- Persons under 25 that are in between studies at the time of signup or implementation of this term, but returning to studies at high school, college, university or post-secondary education within one (1) year of the date of this term becoming applicable.

Proof may be brought by means of a diploma or certificate stating the player has completed said course of education."

I don't know how to be any less ambiguous.
 
Sounds like a plan that makes sense.

Disagree somewhat with the "spirit" matter because the issue was addressed in the T&C. Written word always controls over "spirit" and verbal agreements.
 
Disagree somewhat with the "spirit" matter because the issue was addressed in the T&C. Written word always controls over "spirit" and verbal agreements.

This is where the whole argument lies - whether or not the term was violated because "high school" was not specifically mentioned. This is why I say the casino interprets the term "in the spirit", while the player looks at it and says nothing was violated.

It all comes down to how the term is interpreted.
 
(Going on what is known from OP's version)

OP is a student. OP deposits. OP plays through. On cashout request, OP responds he is a student. OP is informed that this casino does not allow students. OP THEN goes and reads the T&C's that casino is citing. OP decides that his student status doesn't fit in exact language.

If the OP is smart enough to see a loophole, he's smart enough to have seen a problem coming if he read the T&C's up front. If I'm a student of ANY status whatsoever, and reads those terms, I'm going to be concerned about what might happen if I request funds to withdraw, therefore I will be contacting someone in an official capacity at the casino to verify they want my action, or not.

OP did not read the terms and then take action to protect himself up front. If half of these people with casino problems took action to clarify and protect their intended game play, we'd have 50% LESS posts here asking for support and pressure be applied to the casino.

I'm tired of it.

Player deserves his deposit back, 100%. Nothing else. Read the T&C's and protect yourself next time. There's too many casinos to choose from that don't have this idiotic clause in their T&C's. Ignoring the T&C's, or assuming you don't fit a criteria (even though you are sitting right in the middle of it), is not an excuse to be paid. Feel lucky you got your deposit back.

- Keith
 
Really?
Doubt it for the Finnish matriculation examination. From Finland its only IBDP AFAIK.
It depends what your Abitur focused on - in Germany it can be several things, arts, sciences, etc. Most universities in the States require students to have x amount of credits in History, Political Science, Language Arts, Humanites, etc. no matter what your major is. Those last two years of your Abitur count for many of these courses. At least one from Bavaria does :p

Goes to show the level of education in the States. :thumbsup:

...
OP is a student. OP deposits. OP plays through. On cashout request, OP responds he is a student. OP is informed that this casino does not allow students. OP THEN goes and reads the T&C's that casino is citing. OP decides that his student status doesn't fit in exact language.
Déjà vu?? :p

...Player deserves his deposit back, 100%. Nothing else. Read the T&C's and protect yourself next time...

It's been done as far as I know.
 
They were warned, and it happened. Confusion because of TOO MUCH detail in the terms. Rather than simply banning those under 21, or under 25, they decided to focus on students. Then, rather than banning ALL students, or ALL students under a set age, they started NARROWING the definitions so that only SOME students under 25 were banned, those considered full time, and studying at certain types of institution. The detail implies therefore that there is a different class of full time student under 25 who CAN still play, which is completely wrong in terms of what CW are trying to achieve.
This case has arisen because they have decided to list specific types of study institution, but the list is ambiguous because different parts of the world use different terminology.

They ONLY ban "College or university", but they actually mean ANY type of institution dedicated to full time study after the age of majority in any particular country.

Saying "full time" makes things even worse, because again it can be open to interpretation. Does it relate to whether one ONLY studies, or to how many hours per week they study.

Their legal team need to take an international view, and figure out a version that does away with any preconceived structure for further studies, and make it simple.

"Students under 25 years of age may not play unless prior approval has been granted by the casino".

This would place the onus on ANY student under the age of 25 to seek prior approval, and it would be up to the casino to decide whether this is a student that is covered in the SPIRIT of their rules, or one that they WILL allow to play.

Since there is no detail in the written term, there is no room for interpretation other than to contact the casino and ask for prior approval given the individual circumstances.

The casinos will ban entire contries, rather than attempt a more detailed term to ban only those players within the country that they don't want.

I have also seen entire countries banned unless "prior approval has been granted".

This will happen again, and again, either when players don't read this term at CW, or where a student does read it, but decides the detail does NOT cover the type of student they are (rather than arguing the detail after the fact, as seems to be the case this time).
 
Here in NY (not sure if this applies to any other state) students in grades 11 and 12 can take AP courses which are college courses. These courses go towards their college degree, so even at age 17 and 18 these students are considered college students while attending high school.

Someone else mentioned homeschooling, I'm wondering how that would be interpreted by the casino since they aren't formally enrolled in a public/private educational institution?
 
"Students under 25 years of age may not play unless prior approval has been granted by the casino".
Absolutely agree! :thumbsup:
Until the CWC group decide EXACTLY who it is they want to ban and make it 100% clear in their terms, I have added the following note against all their casinos on my website:-
"No Students under 25 years of age!"

KK
 
Here in NY (not sure if this applies to any other state) students in grades 11 and 12 can take AP courses which are college courses. These courses go towards their college degree, so even at age 17 and 18 these students are considered college students while attending high school.

Someone else mentioned homeschooling, I'm wondering how that would be interpreted by the casino since they aren't formally enrolled in a public/private educational institution?

That might be the next one to hit. Many full time courses can be done from home, and it is NOT only the "mature student" doing them, but many young people who find they cannot get a job after leaving school may decide to do something along the lines of the UK's "Open University", which offers proper full time courses done at home for a fraction of the cost of actually attending a college or university. These will STILL be "full time students", yet depending on the nature of the course, and the provider, will not know whether they are still classed as students under CW banning criteria.

In the threads discussing this, the CW rep was asked to say what they were trying to achieve in formulating a replacement term, but the question was not answered. Instead WE had to ASSUME what they were trying to achieve when making suggestions, and it seems we STILL have a term that is open to misinterpretation.

The ONLY thing cleared up was that this did NOT apply to students over the age of 25, who would be students studying after having been in the jobs market.


It is a weakness that many consumers DON'T read the terms and conditions when they buy something, or take out a contract. This is something the industries need to address, and using PLAIN ENGLISH and BREVITY in their terms would be a fantastic start.
Many people don't read "smallprint" because it is very lengthy, and often seems to be written in a foreign language taught only to lawyers. Instead, they rely on the concept of trust, that the smallprint is NOT there to "screw them", and is there merely for "legal reasons" that need not concern them. They rely on the HEADLINE descriptions when deciding whether they want to buy the item, or take out the contract.

This has been recognised in consumer law, and there are boundaries that "smallprint" may NOT cross, so there is at least SOME protection for those who are tricked by the advertising into taking out something unsuitable. The law also has the concept of something having been "mis sold", and this allows a contract, however watertight, to be set aside by the courts or the regulator.

It is the LACK of such consumer protection online that creates problems with internet based services. Many consumers think the same standards apply to the internet as they do in B & M life, and forget that it is still the "wild west" in the internet world.

Businesses that take advantage of the naivety of consumers deserve the "bashing" they get. It is no defence to claim "the customer should have............", because customers are NOT legally trained, and may not even be aware of what they should have done unless someone tells them first, or after their first experience of a problem after NOT doing something.

Ordinary people CANNOT just "go ask their lawyer" when they meet terms they don't understand, this is something only the RICH would have routine access to (a family lawyer on permanent retainer at their beck & call), or a BUSINESS (a legal department, including a "house" lawyer or two).
Whilst they SHOULD decline to take out a contract they don't understand, most will GO AHEAD and hope for the best.

Even if we DID have our own lawyers, the casinos just use "the spirit of" defence, and claim what was written was NOT what they actually MEANT.
 
All this energy is being consumed to try and figure out how they can word this, or do that, but I really believe Soflat has it nailed:

>They probably banned college student because of bonus abuse in the dorms and on share university computers

They obviously wouldn't want to come right out and say that, but when you look at what they're trying to say, and how much controversy it is attracting, what else could you deduce? I really don't think home schooling is any part of what they're trying to accomplish.

I don't think they want to fix it, otherwise they would have by now. Imagine trying to come up with verbiage to cover such a variable group? Impossible! Therefore, come up with something that you (the business) can interpret on a case-by-case basis. It allows them to be selective whilst appearing to be excluding a particular group for whatever moral reasoning. I ain't buying it. It's rubbish, it's cherry-picking at its finest.

If this is the issue (strong evidence for it being so), then let's unload that in plain English and see if anyone can develop T&C wording to solve it:

We, the business entity running a casino, have a history of problems with certain players who abuse our bonus systems. We have identified that a majority of these problematic individuals come from students, many who trade and glean information from websites and message forums, then utilize resources available at their schools and dormitories to gain an advantage against the services we provide. We wish to exclude as many of those problematic students as possible, whilst not ostracizing those customers we deem legitimate and desired.

Anyone want to take a solid stab at some T&C wording that will work here? I tried. I failed.

- Keith
 
This whole issue is just another case of how stupid and ridicules online gaming actually became.

First of all I think the OP trying to prove how clever he is at such a mature adult age of 18 by finding technically another stupid loop hole left open by the brilliant people that write these T&C’s; personally, I feel the OP should be punished and cut off of his allowance and computer for a month. If he doesn’t like it then throw him the hell out of the house. He should have no problem living on his own; after all he is an adult.

The casino should be forced to pay his original deposit back just for being so damn stupid in the first place, since in a court of law the argument might hold some water based on ill-written T&C’s. Then again common sense might just overrule everything and the judge sentences him to a spanking.

The casino has every right not to question every single person that enters their casino prior to gambling and loses money. If your only 19 and look like your 25 and never were randomly checked while gambling in Las Vegas, made 10 visits and lost 5k, and while on your 11th visit you win a 5k jackpot. Not only will you not get any funds what so ever back, you’ll get thrown out of the casino. It’s been done several times in the past.

There are far more serious issues to raise hell about when it comes to online gaming. With this lack of common sense thread gaining such momentum and serious debate, confirms just another sign of how ridicules this all has become.
 
What are you doing here then?
Online casinos are bad news dude. No one with a chance to live a decent life should be here...

I'm serious.

Petro, do you need to talk to someone Bro? I'm hear to listen if so... This is a little dark and cynical, is it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinylweatherman View Post
"Students under 25 years of age may not play unless prior approval has been granted by the casino".
Absolutely agree!
Until the CWC group decide EXACTLY who it is they want to ban and make it 100% clear in their terms, I have added the following note against all their casinos on my website:-
"No Students under 25 years of age!"

KK

You go King! The interweb needs more protection for infantile adults... From themselves...

I wish someone would have kept me away from gambling before I was 25. Anti social behavior is what it is. And a touch habitual... anyway... There was no such 'rule' or 'someone' to keep me from gambling, and even if there was, I would have ignored it/them, bc I was an adult. In fact, I left for university at 17, and never have been a dependent since. So tell me; if I can manage to pay my tuition, go to class, read my courseload, and pass my finals, not to mention, clean myself, pay my bills, pay my rent and remember to eat every once in awhile, whose business is it if I wish to gamble a lil of whats left over assuming I am of legal age to do so in the area I am trying to gamble from? I know 30 year olds with less financial aptitude and far less maturity than I possessed at 17(And thats just my close friends)! We might suggest to CWC that they too be excluded...
 
First of all I think the OP trying to prove how clever he is at such a mature adult age of 18 by finding technically another stupid loop hole left open by the brilliant people that write these T&C’s; personally, I feel the OP should be punished and cut off of his allowance and computer for a month. If he doesn’t like it then throw him the hell out of the house. He should have no problem living on his own; after all he is an adult.
What the hell is your problem?:what:

Anyway, got my deposit back and got tired at trying to argue with the casino so no winnings.
 
What the hell is your problem?:what:

Anyway, got my deposit back and got tired at trying to argue with the casino so no winnings.

I don't really think he is the one with the problem jussiv. I think some of us will agree you were trying to "scam" the casino with a loosely written T&C and it backfired on you. I would suggest the next time you want to play at an online casino you make sure you read the T&Cs BEFORE you make a deposit and if there are any doubts you go to CS and ask questions. That way you know there won't be any problems if you are able to cashout.

You are fortunate they gave you your deposit back, some other casino would have just kept it and sent you on your way. Live and learn...
 
I don't really think he is the one with the problem jussiv. I think some of us will agree you were trying to "scam" the casino with a loosely written T&C and it backfired on you. I would suggest the next time you want to play at an online casino you make sure you read the T&Cs BEFORE you make a deposit and if there are any doubts you go to CS and ask questions. That way you know there won't be any problems if you are able to cashout.

You are fortunate they gave you your deposit back, some other casino would have just kept it and sent you on your way. Live and learn...

LOL at him trying to "scam" the casino, some of you should probably get out more.

He was totally right in wondering what is wrong with 4OAK after his pathetic steaming.

And people have totally lost it when they think OP was lucky getting his deposit back.
 
On the specific complaint that this thread is built upon, I can see both sides of the issue. I would probably side with the player since the terms are not explicit by virtue of their overcomplicated nature. A simple "No full-time students under the age of 25" would have been a far better wording for this restriction. But I would have to admit I am not really passionate about "righting this wrong", as I can see that the other side of this issue has some merit.

-HOWEVER-​

I see this policy as a blatant attempt by the Club World Group to effectively lower their RTP percentages. This is what really pisses me off about this issue, and a perfect example of why online gambling sucks big-time.

As I had pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, I doubt that Club World Group returns the deposits of Students under 25 years of age who have lost $$$ and never have requested a withdrawal (and considering that this is RTG software, their are quite possibly many such players in this category ;)). This is because the "trigger" of this circumstance coming to light is a withdrawal and not a deposit.

Deposit and lose, Club World keeps your deposit; Win and withdrawal.....Are you a student?

My biggest issue with online gaming is that the casinos write the rules and are judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to anything after they get your deposit in their hands. I am a libertarian politically, but after years of the self-serving bullsh*t that I see even the more reputable casinos pull, I am convinced that without government oversight, the average online gambler is just a manipulated patsy at the mercy of the casino.
 
I cannot understand why a few people in this thread are making the assumption that jussiv is trying to "scam" the casino....or trying to pull a fast one on the casino.....or are trying to find loopholes in the casinos T&Cs.

Anyone who took one of the above stances obviously didn't read the first post in this thread.

Jussiv said that the casino asked him if he was a student and he answered yes. Obviously he didn't think there could be such a nonsensical term so he wanted to be honest. So the thanks he got for honesty was the casino twisting the terms to their advantage. Don't you think if they were trying to scam the casino they would have just said no?????

I swear some people just want to take the casinos side no matter what.
 
I am convinced that without government oversight, the average online gambler is just a manipulated patsy at the mercy of the casino.

That's pretty much fact.

It is also fact that wherever 'free money' might be available, people will try to do whatever they can to get that money. The average online gambler is ALSO affected by this! I advocate Fair Play on both sides of the fence, period. Not only is it just, well... fair, but it also can stop some of these ridiculous T&C's, and a bunch of other related issues. Sorry, running out the door... know what I wanted to say, no time to do it.

Casinos aren't evil. Players aren't evil. Some casinos are evil. Some players are evil. In between, you and I are stuck, and we are affected both ways as each sides postures up.

- Keith
 
I cannot understand why a few people in this thread are making the assumption that jussiv is trying to "scam" the casino....or trying to pull a fast one on the casino.....or are trying to find loopholes in the casinos T&Cs.

Anyone who took one of the above stances obviously didn't read the first post in this thread.

Jussiv said that the casino asked him if he was a student and he answered yes. Obviously he didn't think there could be such a nonsensical term so he wanted to be honest. So the thanks he got for honesty was the casino twisting the terms to their advantage. Don't you think if they were trying to scam the casino they would have just said no?????

I swear some people just want to take the casinos side no matter what.

An assumption is just that, an assumption. I am assuming that, and I'm free to, based not only on how I interpreted his original post, but also the ones after. In order to substantiate my assumption, I would need facts I'll never have available, such as what was in his brain at any particular point. People are judged every single day with circumstantial evidence, which then leads those who judged them to assume their judgment.

In the time I have had a membership at CM, I have lost count how many times people have come here as new users and tried to use this forum to pull some kind of crap. I might be jaded by all those times, but the bottom line is, to me, if it quacks and waddles, I'm going to assume it's a duck.

- Keith
 
This whole issue is just another case of how stupid and ridicules online gaming actually became.

First of all I think the OP trying to prove how clever he is at such a mature adult age of 18 by finding technically another stupid loop hole left open by the brilliant people that write these T&C’s; personally, I feel the OP should be punished and cut off of his allowance and computer for a month. If he doesn’t like it then throw him the hell out of the house. He should have no problem living on his own; after all he is an adult.

The casino should be forced to pay his original deposit back just for being so damn stupid in the first place, since in a court of law the argument might hold some water based on ill-written T&C’s. Then again common sense might just overrule everything and the judge sentences him to a spanking.

The casino has every right not to question every single person that enters their casino prior to gambling and loses money. If your only 19 and look like your 25 and never were randomly checked while gambling in Las Vegas, made 10 visits and lost 5k, and while on your 11th visit you win a 5k jackpot. Not only will you not get any funds what so ever back, you’ll get thrown out of the casino. It’s been done several times in the past.

There are far more serious issues to raise hell about when it comes to online gaming. With this lack of common sense thread gaining such momentum and serious debate, confirms just another sign of how ridicules this all has become.



The bolded above is what I agree with in 4ofakind's post. Next, I think it's a sad thing to realize that high school students are getting into gambling. This venue just like drugs and other pastimes/obsessions can lead to some very serious problems for the young player and all those in his/her life.
But having said that, people of any age will make their own choices, be it good or bad.
I am pretty certain that every single player or darn near, has started off their gambling pastime, by first experiencing the not so good aspect of gambling, be it rogue casinos, or terms and conditions. All players must do the live and learn thing, before wising up. Hit enough bumps in the road and you learn to avoid them later on, this is your first bump, maybe.
For the young student player, I would advise you do some studying in the "Quit Gambling" thread and read some of the dreadful stories that gambling can cause and always familiarize yourself with the T&C's, before giving up your money to any casino.
To summerize, good luck to you and keep it in perspective.
 
LOL at him trying to "scam" the casino, some of you should probably get out more.

He was totally right in wondering what is wrong with 4OAK after his pathetic steaming.

And people have totally lost it when they think OP was lucky getting his deposit back.

Was that really necessary?

You can disagree with others without putting them down or questioning their mental capacity.

As for those that thanked the post - including the lurker - it is you that needs to take a long hard look.
 
Was that really necessary?

You can disagree with others without putting them down or questioning their mental capacity.

As for those that thanked the post - including the lurker - it is you that needs to take a long hard look.

Please reread 4OAKs post Nifty. I thought his remarks towards jussiv were very immature. And I would certaintly say they were putting him down as well. Why is it ok for one but not another?

And making suggestions to throw someone out of the house? I would say that is pretty cruel. And that post was nominated 3 times??? And YOU thanked that post? Just because someone has been around awhile doesn't give them the right to put down other members
 
Please reread 4OAKs post Nifty. I thought his remarks towards jussiv were very immature. And I would certaintly say they were putting him down as well. Why is it ok for one but not another?

And making suggestions to throw someone out of the house? I would say that is pretty cruel. And that post was nominated 3 times??? And YOU thanked that post? Just because someone has been around awhile doesn't give them the right to put down other members

I just re-read that post to make sure I didn't miss anything.

The remark about 'throwing him out of the house' has to be taken in context with the preceding remarks. I don't think 4OAK was personally insulting him at all - just saying what he might perhaps do if he was their parent (how I read it anyway).

Since it's the only example you could come up with from that post, I would have to say I disagree with you.

I thanked the post because it is in line with what i believe about people taking responsibility for their own actions.

The post by Spiderlegz was just 3 lines of insults and was totally unnecessary IMO.

Here is what I mean for those that missed it:

LOL at him trying to "scam" the casino, some of you should probably get out more. i.e."If you agree with ksech you have some kind of social disorder"

He was totally right in wondering what is wrong with 4OAK after his pathetic steaming.i.e. "4OAK's opinion is worthless and was all hot air"

And people have totally lost it when they think OP was lucky getting his deposit back.i.e. "If you think the opposite of me you have lost control of your mental faculties"

You will see I typed in red what my reading of his comments were.

He could have very easily just stated he didn't agree and provided some reasons why - but hey, why do that when you can take the easy option and just take a personal potshot? :rolleyes:
 
Maybe Spiderz post was a tad harsh, but 4OAK pretty much said, "Hey Jussiv you are immature", he just used a few more sentences in doing so.

And I thanked the post because the whole premise of jussiv trying to scam the casino is laughable. Why on earth would they admit to being a student then?

I think this has been stated before, but i'll just say it again anyway: We don't know jussiv's personal situation. Just because you are a student does not mean you do not have any disposable income. There are plenty of middle age people out there who are not in school, have 2 jobs, and are broke and have no business gambling.

Anyhow, case closed. Deposit returned. Poorly written terms. Casino wins again:(
 
Please reread 4OAKs post Nifty. I thought his remarks towards jussiv were very immature. And I would certaintly say they were putting him down as well. Why is it ok for one but not another?

And making suggestions to throw someone out of the house? I would say that is pretty cruel. And that post was nominated 3 times??? And YOU thanked that post? Just because someone has been around awhile doesn't give them the right to put down other members

As Bryan pointed out in another thread, nominating a post doesn't necessarily mean you agree with everything in it (although it's safe to say many people DO use it that way).

I nominated that post because of the overall context, which was what a waste of time this is, on behalf of someone who didn't read the terms and try to protect himself up front. It is LIKEWISE a waste of time to deal again with a casino entity that is AWARE of this problem, but makes no effort to relieve it. They are both EQUALLY stupid aspects to be rewarded with our attention, our energy, and an overall splitting of the forum membership.

I quoted the portion that caused me to nominate it, and nominating it doesn't tie me to being in agreement with every sentence in it, word for word. I completely related with his frustration with such a minuscule problem taking up so much energy, when there are much bigger problems that might ACTUALLY be worth us all drawing a line in the sand and daring each other to step across.

This is a re-visit of the DanL situation. That thread also pitted forum member versus forum member, and we even LOST 1 or 2 members from that argument (Pinababy for sure).

It doesn't matter whether the OP intended to scam anyone. He doesn't have a defense. If he didn't read the terms, his loss. If he did, then he tried to pull a scam. It's entirely possible he knew exactly what he was doing, and is lying to us about when he became aware they didn't accept students. I base my assumption of scam on the fact that in his first post, he already came armed with the exact loophole he was going to try to use to cashout. That's suspicious to me, and feeds my assumptions. I have no apology for feeling that way, and my feelings were strengthened by his cocky responses to other members who had questions. Character is everything when nothing else is known, and you are asking people to believe something you have no way of proving.

That should be the other lesson he learned. Who knows whether or not he has absorbed either lesson.

- Keith
 
Why on earth would they admit to being a student then?

Because it's possible he already had an exclusion to his student status ready to go. I can't prove that, you can't prove he didn't. It just means both sides of that coin are possible, and I'm simply answering your question and not trying to convince you of anything.

I think this has been stated before, but i'll just say it again anyway: We don't know jussiv's personal situation. Just because you are a student does not mean you do not have any disposable income. There are plenty of middle age people out there who are not in school, have 2 jobs, and are broke and have no business gambling.

But that's not on trial here. This casino, IMO, is trying to stop problems they've had (and many others have, also) with certain students abusing their bonus systems. I don't like that, but it's their business. Again, if this is the case, he was victimized by all the irresponsible players in the years past who have burned casinos. This casino is a business and has a right to protect itself any way it sees fit. If they go too far, then they will lose valid business, and then go out of business. It's a delicate dance, hence the attempt at cherry-picking with the T&C's. They don't want to alienate the desirable customers, just the undesirable ones. It's none of my business to tell them they can't do that. As long as they do not have T&C's that are impossible to decipher, or hidden in a way to trap people into losing their deposits or wins, I'm good with that. It's then on the player to understand and meet those conditions, and most definitely ASK any questions BEFORE they deposit. There is no other option, as casinos have made it CLEAR they are not going to screen every customer before accepting a deposit.

- Keith
 
It's clear that CWC doesn't want any students to play under the age of 25, now.

Unfortunately the term again is debatable but their effort and attention towards modifying the term shows intent on their behalf. :thumbsup:

It should read like this moving forward:

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Students of any kind aged 25 or under who are enrolled, or in between studies are not permitted to play in the Casino.

That covers this debate and the last one.

Deposit refund was due and additional clarification within the T &C is due. JMO ;)
 
...
As I had pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, I doubt that Club World Group returns the deposits of Students under 25 years of age who have lost $$$ and never have requested a withdrawal (and considering that this is RTG software, their are quite possibly many such players in this category ;)). This is because the "trigger" of this circumstance coming to light is a withdrawal and not a deposit.

Deposit and lose, Club World keeps your deposit; Win and withdrawal.....Are you a student?

...
I think that's an unfair assumption. It's the player's responsibility to read the terms and conditions. When they sign up, they are required to check a box that states they have read these terms. If you don't read the terms and conditions, then whose fault is it when you unknowingly breach them?

Sure, we could have it so that there is a check box by each paragraph of the Ts&Cs- all 40 of them. But how many players would just blindly click away out of impatience? :p

[/B]

... Next, I think it's a sad thing to realize that high school students are getting into gambling...
This is not a US "high school" student. Many European "high schools" go to the 13th grade which is like junior college, so he's not a baby.

But he's still a student :D
 
I think that's an unfair assumption. It's the player's responsibility to read the terms and conditions. When they sign up, they are required to check a box that states they have read these terms. If you don't read the terms and conditions, then whose fault is it when you unknowingly breach them?

If this is such an important point, why not ask if the player is a student upon sign-up? That would avoid the abuse that I am talking about.

To make myself clear, if Club World is so concerned about young students gambling, they would put a stop to all such students, not just the ones that were lucky enough to withdrawal.

As currently applied, this is a self-serving and abusive policy.
 
The casino has the righst to enforce such a rule if they wish, even if this is considered a stupid rule by the public. However i definately think there should be a tick box when player makes his account, to make sure everyone understand cwc:s stand point in this matter.

However this rule is just too strange to me. Everyone can go to regular land based casinos to play students or not.

-kavaman
 
However this rule is just too strange to me. Everyone can go to regular land based casinos to play students or not.

-kavaman

True but at a landbased casino they can be vetted for real age and details. The problem is that online you can be there anytime and you can say whatever you want about your identity until its time to prove it.

As is obvious from my earlier posts I agree with CWC decision and I think the OP was being a smart alec and knew ful well the position.

That being said I think the only way CWC can aviod the nitpicking would be requesting details for anyone under 25 before they deposit or adding a box that asks if they are a student if the age is under 25. If they say yes then no deposits until proof not fulltime or if they lie then its the OPS own risk.

We will probably never get a solution that keeps everyone 100% happy so we need to look at what a reasonable person would regard as intent and what covers 99%.
 
True but at a landbased casino they can be vetted for real age and details. The problem is that online you can be there anytime and you can say whatever you want about your identity until its time to prove it.

As is obvious from my earlier posts I agree with CWC decision and I think the OP was being a smart alec and knew ful well the position.

That being said I think the only way CWC can aviod the nitpicking would be requesting details for anyone under 25 before they deposit or adding a box that asks if they are a student if the age is under 25. If they say yes then no deposits until proof not fulltime or if they lie then its the OPS own risk.

We will probably never get a solution that keeps everyone 100% happy so we need to look at what a reasonable person would regard as intent and what covers 99%.

I get the impression that CS are asking "are you a student" of EVERY player who declares themselves to be under 25. These cases have all arisen because the players didn't know about this rule, and simply gave an honest answer.

Any players who DID know, and INTENDED to get away with playing as a student would simply lie at this point, and say "no". CWC would have no way to PROVE any player under 25 was a student, all they could hope to prove is that they cannot show they are in full time employment, and since this is NOT a requirement, it CANNOT be justification for confiscating winnings.

They are being VERY resistant to making this even MORE obvious by altering the registration form to include a declaration that a player is not a student. They use the argument "we can't cover everything...." to deflect this, but they don't NEED to "cover anything", only the few issues that create problems. They certainly DON'T wait until the first withdrawal before asking to player to declare that they are over 18, and there are MANY other details needed to register that could just as easily wait until the player withdraws.

The ONLY thing making this rule better publicised within the player community are the threads stemming from students have their winnings confiscated, and admitting they never expected such a rule to apply, so didn't bother checking for one.

If anything, students don't JUST need protection from gambling, they need protection from life in "the big bad world", and despite CWC considering them NOT mature enough to gamble responsibly, CWC DO consider them "worldly wise" enough NOT to take things at face value in their dealings with "business", but to check the details first.

Surely, if students ARE "mature" enough to be EXPECTED to act fully like adults, and WITHOUT any "special help", when it comes to walking into traps set by "business", they are also MATURE enough to decide for themselves WHICH of the adult "vices" they want to try out with their new freedoms.

I think a specimen complaint to the ASA should be made after March 1st, arguing that despite it's prominence in the "small print", this term is sufficiently unusual under gambling law that it is misleading NOT to make it even MORE prominent in the advertising targetted at new players.

The ASA upheld the complaint against the Betfair TV ad, and this WAS because the advert did not properly highlight how things worked in the "small print". The fact that the terms were CLEAR did NOT help Betfair, it is the AD that has to be clear, and BEFORE any potential customer even gets as far as checking out the "small print".
 
If this is such an important point, why not ask if the player is a student upon sign-up? That would avoid the abuse that I am talking about...
Why should they if it's #1 in the terms and conditions? And it's not that a big of deal relatively speaking. This casino group has had this rule since 2006 as far as I know, and there has only been maybe four "student" issues that I'm aware of (including this one) since then...that's five years.

It's clearly written in the terms and conditions. If they were to have a check box for this one term, then (like I mentioned earlier in this thread) they ought to have a check-box for each term - which is just damn silly. Correct me if I'm wrong, one has to agree to the terms and conditions before completing the sign-up process, right? :what:

I think a lot of players are just trying to find something to bitch about when I read threads like these. People need to take responsibility for their actions and quit blaming others for their mistakes.

Admin note: changed thread title from "didn't break terms" to "student issue" - that's a bit more accurate, eh?
 
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Why should they if it's #1 in the terms and conditions? And it's not that a big of deal relatively speaking. This casino group has had this rule since 2006 as far as I know, and there has only been maybe four "student" issues that I'm aware of (including this one) since then...that's five years.

It's clearly written in the terms and conditions. If they were to have a check box for this one term, then (like I mentioned earlier in this thread) they ought to have a check-box for each term - which is just damn silly. Correct me if I'm wrong, one has to agree to the terms and conditions before completing the sign-up process, right? :what:

I think a lot of players are just trying to find something to bitch about when I read threads like these. People need to take responsibility for their actions and quit blaming others for their mistakes.

Admin note: changed thread title from "didn't break terms" to "student issue" - that's a bit more accurate, eh?

The problem is that this is an "absolute" term, rather than a "relative" one.

A "relative" term is one that you needn't worry about if you are a "normal customer", which in the case of a casino is the average "recreational player".
Many players don't read the terms, but play recreationally, and end up not breaking them in any case.

An "absolute" term is different, and is like the one that players must be 18 or over. It matters not whether an underage player does not take bonuses, does not collude, and plays "in the spirit" of everything, the "absolute" fact of their age disqualifies them.

The argument could also be extended to AGE, why can this NOT be item ONE in the terms, and players have one FEWER box to tick, and the rule about 18 & over is CLEARLY in the terms, so a player age 17 who registers and plays without reading the main terms is JUST as foolish as the student, or any other player, who fails to read the terms.

"relative" terms do NOT need such prominence, since the ONLY apply in certain circumstances, and MOST "relative" terms ONLY apply when players use bonuses.

The student term is a one way ticket to loseville for those who ASSUME, rather than read, the terms; since players CAN deposit and play as students, and it is only when they WIN that they find out how foolish they have been. Surely the foolish need protection, and this IS all about the protection of the VULNERABLE is it not?

The "clever" student can even get away with breaking this term, because they will NOT let on during verification that they ARE a student. I wonder how many students DO bypass this rule because they are smart enough to know that CWC can't actually CHECK with any degree of accuracy, but have to get the player to "let slip" about them being students.

Only 4 cases, but why all of a sudden, rather than spread out over the 5 years this rule has been in place?

Protection of the vulnerable should NOT rely on them doing what they SHOULD do, but what they ACTUALLY do, which is WHY they are considered so "vulnerable" in the first place.

Problem gamblers are also vulnerable, and they SHOULD take matters into their own hands, close all their accounts etc. However it is CASINOS that are held responsible if this vulnerable group find a way to bypass the system and it is found the casino "could have done more" to prevent it.

CWC can CERTAINLY "do more" to protect students from their own stupidity in NOT reading "small print", as well as their stupidity in assuming the internet obeys the SAME rules as the B & M world.
 

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