Gambling Addiction discussion

[JHV]

Welcome back Scooter. I do hope you continue to contribute on the forum. Yours have been my fav. thread to date. That chat is a classic. Even if you chose not to post about your misadventures with "iffy" casino practices, please post. Since you once worked in a casino I'm sure you have some good stories about your dealing days, and what goes on behind closed doors of the casinos. Spin those yarns. You can change the names to protect the innocent

Honestly, the 20 months I worked at a land based casino were the most horrific of my life. And I still probably have some lingering 'scars' from the experience, though it seems a lifetime ago.

Any stories that I'd find interesting to share would be morbidly depressing, as anyone who's worked in a gritty* land based casino can probably imagine. Casinos attract a certain brand of helpless / damaged souls to their jingling lights and sounds and false promises of easy winnings and 'entertainment' - it's 'entertainment' all right, in a far closer way to how amphetamines are 'entertainment', according to the studies I've read on the subject - and the chemicals the RISK / DANGER of the gamble force-release in your brain - it's some twisted, complicated shit where winning has negligible neurological effect (paraphrasing, hopefully correctly)...but the risk of losing, the risk of disaster, that's where the addiction comes from - any 'pleasure' from gambling apparently comes not from the thrill of winning, but the panic of losing.

That's actually not so depressing in itself, but when you see first-hand the damage genuine addiction can inflict on (otherwise) good families and the horrible positions gambling addiction can (occasionally) put people in, it has the potential to shake you to your core to the point where you're questioning life-long beliefs about Politics 101 issues like definition of individual liberty, the role of the state in legislating morality, at what point should government organisations intervene when a parent (or even an individual) appears to be or is clearly spinning out of control, etc.

I realise I'm unintentionally being cryptic, so I'll give one example. A lady who I'm 100% certain was, and would have continued to be a brilliant mother to her kids (were it not for her roulette addiction) just self-destructed in front of my eyes over a period of a few months. Listening to exhausted and frustrated teachers call her every day saying they have to get home to their own kids and would she PLEASE come pick up her kids as school was let out 3 hrs ago - and she'd be stricken with guilt and frantic, but always saying: "Just one more spin, just one more". Ridiculous cliche I know, but when 8 hours after the phone call from the kids' teacher saying he's leaving them in as safe a place as he can at the school alone, she's still saying "just one more spin"....and the kids are sitting alone and unprotected that entire time (probably) every day waiting for her...seeing that firsthand; watching the degeneration from loving mother to horrible sick selfish (this might be unfair - I genuinely believe she had little to no control over her addiction) person so rapidly every day like a horrible soap opera...that was pretty traumatic for me to witness.

Social services ended up taking the kids, I think. As they should. She was an unfit mother due to her sickness. She triple mortgaged the family home and one of the banks inevitably foreclosed not long after. Without her kids, homeless, undoubtedly racked to hell with guilt but unable to request self-exclusion from the premises, I watched her sink into dark depression - she started using drugs, mixing with people no sane person would ever want to mix with - and well, I'll leave the rest to your imagination and say that the worst you can imagine, is probably pretty close to what happened.

Credit to the casino I worked for, to be honest - at their core, they were greedy money-grabbing crafty connected businessmen taking advantage of peoples' stupidity, ignorance (it's stunning how many people don't even understand the concept of house advantage, let alone know the % for the games they're playing - as high as 16% for some games in Australia, just sick) and mental illness (if you call addiction a mental illness, which I think is probably accurate) - but they did try to step in and intervene in this particular case with the mother. But the gambling legislation is complex and complicated when it comes to stuff like this. I think it came down to ONLY she could request exclusion, the casino couldn't just ban her from premises for her own good - I might not have the full details on why she couldn't be excluded, but there were some complexities anyway, and we just had to watch the horror unfold in front of our eyes.

I spoke to her often in the early days trying to really subtly flick the switch in her brain about the choices she was making as they affected her children, but she was just blind to it all. Not out of an 'evil' place, I don't think. She was just blind to everything. Living in a fantasy world, in some respects. Pure, clinical addiction. My sympathy for her reached non-existent levels when she would yell at me for not reminding her to pick up her kids when I'd been reminding her (using VERY strong language at times) for the better part of 6-8 hours. The mentally ill have a remarkable talent for alienating those that would seek to help them - I have the utmost respect for anyone able to put up with the insanity whilst assisting or treating someone suffering from mental illness. I don't have the patience. Once I'd decided she was beyond help, and I was sick of her insane attempts at transferring blame onto me and others for "not reminding her" - I would just coldly crush her if she came to my table (if she was frantically gambling whilst her young kids were sitting alone cold somewhere as night fell - justified abuse on my part, imo - her behaviour had reached despicable levels [this was *just* before social services took the kids, I think]). She disgusted me and probably everyone else - and she became a pretty easy / soft target for those who prey upon such types I guess. They used her up and spat her out - circle of (the dark side of) life.

----

Heh, I rambled on a bit in the end. But yep, the vast majority of my stories would be morbidly depressing like this one. The culture there was...I can't describe it. We were just kids, excited when we got the job, thinking it would be fun, etc. Within months, most of my training group had quit - some were on depression meds, I wanted to quit more than anything in the world but couldn't afford to - so stuck it out for almost two years and tried in vain to block out the depravity and sadness. The back room atmosphere and staff culture was just morbid. Seeing grown men cry uncontrollably after losing I guess their mortgage payments or even more, seeing young girls with hopeless gambling addictions doing things flippantly for cash - things that probably would have horrified them only months earlier.

Working there that long changed me, not in uniquely positive ways. I grew up a lot, saw a lot of things I perhaps wish I hadn't - learned a LOT about the gritty underbelly of society; learned a lot about people and what motivates them and how easily the weak and sick are manipulated; I became a great deal more cynical and a great deal less chirpy and upbeat, etc. I guess a lot of that would be deemed "valuable life experience" by some people - but give me back my naive irrational positivity imo - I didn't need to know what happens to people when they fall ALL the way down. And I definitely didn't need to see it up close, to people I'd formed semi-friendships with through seeing and talking to them every day.

I'm a libertarian. I think Prohibition is just about the most retarded way to deal with a problem. But gambling is tricky. When families are getting torn apart - and one parent's gambling addiction is ruining the lives of those around them (especially if children are involved), I learned with some horror that things have to get PRETTY bad before the state even contemplates intervening. To the best of my knowledge, there are no effective "cures" for addiction - I guess therapy helps, etc - but when someone is that sick, they're not going to get anything out of therapy, even if dragged kicking and screaming to the doctor (which would probably be the only way you'd get most of them there). I'm pretty opinionated and like to think I have answers for almost everything, but on this issue, I'm stumped. You can't ban it - but hell, I saw what happens when it's legalised, and I came very close to getting sold on Prohibition - just WAY too many negatives, so few, if any positives (except for shareholders or point owners - and I guess employment/industry).

But what I saw - when I try to extrapolate that to what surely goes on at the homes of these sad victims. The thoughts make me shiver. I'd see people who were suicidal in public after losing xxx - and knowing they were on their way home to their kids and family...I'm talking about really sick people here. Sick and (at times) violent people.

I have no answers for this issue.

 

[slotheadlizard]

WOW

Once again you have floored me with your response. I was hoping for a few crazy stories about the guy who put down 2,000 on black, or the drunk chic who won't shut up etc. Instead you revealed something ten times better, and for that I am very grateful.

I hope the mods can maybe merge your previous post with the addiction posts in some way since its not about Rome, but should really be read by those seeking help with addiction.

It seems as if you have seen some terrible things first hand. I just watched a show we have in the U.S. called Intervention. It was about women who are addicted to gambling and the consequences of their actions. One stole from her church, one was a prominent news women who took her newborn to all nite poker games, the other just gambled non stop. All of their lives were ruined because of it.

As far as a cure, one went to some treatment facility, it helped her. I think one was prescribed a medication that helps curb the desire to play. I'm curious to see the follow up show to see if it worked or not.

Most of us use gambling as an entertainment outlet, however many of us will see some of the signs displayed in your examples. I myself saw some of those signs and had to really reflect. Though it gets hard at times, I try to put family first and stick to that budget. I have seen families be destroyed by gambling. Good families before they became addicted.

Your story was sad, and I'm guessing just one of hundreds like it throughout the world. However like you, I am against banning gambling, or anything else that takes away free will. Instead I would rather support causes that help the ones that do become addicted with the profits from gambling.

Your response is a prime example of why you should continue to post. I wish you well in whatever you do since you have stopped gambling. You are a great and engaging writer. (maybe you could write a book about your experiences) I'd buy it.

 

[JHV]

Your story was sad, and I'm guessing just one of hundreds like it throughout the world. However like you, I am against banning gambling, or anything else that takes away free will. Instead I would rather support causes that help the ones that do become addicted with the profits from gambling.

I believe this has to be the optimal approach, yes. From an extremely young age, I've had very strong opinions on the sanctity of individual liberty - but to see what I saw during those 20 months was confronting. I found myself questioning my core political beliefs, and wondering if in fact, the state should not do more (maybe a great deal more) to protect some people from themselves. All I know is that it's a great deal more complex and grey an issue than my First Year Intro to Pol lecturers at uni would have had us believe. I strongly believe that casinos are not taxed heavily enough (actually I feel that way about most of the 'vice' industries) for the widespread damage to society they facilitate - and government (taxpayers) are left with the bill whilst casino owners get filthy rich with [in Australia] monopoly licenses acquired almost certainly NOT through any form of transparent process, of that I am certain.

God knows I could have used an intervention at times this year. With my background, there was almost a ludicrous irony in my house edge gambling. As retarded as it sounds, there might also have been a slight stubborn streak to it - where it seemed that, the more people would lecture me on stopping the madness, the more I would gamble in response, adopting a somewhat childish or brattish attitude of "I freaking worked hard to make this money. If I want to burn it on stupidity, by God, I will. And good luck attempting to stop me." - or something silly like that.

But overall my shockingly wasteful dumping of late was more of a side-effect caused by other, more complex issues - or maybe not so complex. Pure, unadulterated boredom is a force more powerful than I could have ever guessed at prior to this year.

And thinking back about occasional times I would deal to VIP or High Rollers Lounge in those painful months as a croupier, I genuinely believe the people there gambling ridiculous sums were (for the most part) just bored out of their mind. Very few ever appeared to be having much genuine 'fun' - I think for most, it was just a desperate attempt at distraction. And I can sympathise with that on a personal level.

----

The writing thing...I enjoy writing but, apart from completing an entertaining (but completely useless) Arts degree at uni (and the associated million required essays), I haven't ever studied writing in any way, shape or form. And although I suspect I'd likely enjoy some form of creative writing course or some platform to build some technical skills, the truth of the matter is I'm so lazy of late it's *almost* embarrassing. And I've been a geek / workaholic my entire life. This year is like Reverse Bizarro World for me.

People (well, my Mum and Aunt) are telling me I should write though, and for want of any other options, I probably will attempt some serious writing at some point. I actually have a extremely unique life story that might be worth jabbering about at some point in the future - that would probably be genuinely compelling reading. But writing a biography at 28 surely has to be as ludicrous as it sounds - also I haven't really done anything noteworthy but laugh at the endless insanity that was my entire world until I ran away at 14 to attend my first ever year of school. (my parents were hilarious religious nuts of the 'batshit crazy' variety, and that's me being a little coy and even a little kind in my description).

I wanna attempt fiction - but I'd have to go back to school to study writing before even making a laughable first attempt. And well, we're going around in circles. It would be really hot if talented writers could find their way to my flat and teach me at random times of my choosing. Pretty selfish and lazy of them not to, imo. I'm not sure I like this established and widely accepted business model of forcing students into the tortuously repetitive hassle of routine showering, wearing freshly laundered clothes, commuting, socialising and studying together in a distant location (distant = > 100m away). I just can't see anyone signing up for that - the whole thing reeks of 'effort'.

I'm tempted to just copycat Hunter S. Thompson's MO. At best, I might produce something worth reading. At worst, I'll probably have an adventure or two - I just hope the 'adventures' don't require much effort. That would almost certainly ruin them.

 

[same_old]

I believe this has to be the optimal approach, yes. From an extremely young age, I've had very strong opinions on the sanctity of individual liberty - but to see what I saw during those 20 months was confronting. I found myself questioning my core political beliefs, and wondering if in fact, the state should not do more (maybe a great deal more) to protect some people from themselves. All I know is that it's a great deal more complex and grey an issue than my First Year Intro to Pol lecturers at uni would have had us believe. I strongly believe that casinos are not taxed heavily enough (actually I feel that way about most of the 'vice' industries) for the widespread damage to society they facilitate - and government (taxpayers) are left with the bill whilst casino owners get filthy rich with [in Australia] monopoly licenses acquired almost certainly NOT through any form of transparent process, of that I am certain.

God knows I could have used an intervention at times this year. With my background, there was almost a ludicrous irony in my house edge gambling. As retarded as it sounds, there might also have been a slight stubborn streak to it - where it seemed that, the more people would lecture me on stopping the madness, the more I would gamble in response, adopting a somewhat childish or brattish attitude of "I freaking worked hard to make this money. If I want to burn it on stupidity, by God, I will. And good luck attempting to stop me." - or something silly like that.

But overall my shockingly wasteful dumping of late was more of a side-effect caused by other, more complex issues - or maybe not so complex. Pure, unadulterated boredom is a force more powerful than I could have ever guessed at prior to this year.

And thinking back about occasional times I would deal to VIP or High Rollers Lounge in those painful months as a croupier, I genuinely believe the people there gambling ridiculous sums were (for the most part) just bored out of their mind. Very few ever appeared to be having much genuine 'fun' - I think for most, it was just a desperate attempt at distraction. And I can sympathise with that on a personal level.

----

The writing thing...I enjoy writing but, apart from completing an entertaining (but completely useless) Arts degree at uni (and the associated million required essays), I haven't ever studied writing in any way, shape or form. And although I suspect I'd likely enjoy some form of creative writing course or some platform to build some technical skills, the truth of the matter is I'm so lazy of late it's *almost* embarrassing. And I've been a geek / workaholic my entire life. This year is like Reverse Bizarro World for me.

People (well, my Mum and Aunt) are telling me I should write though, and for want of any other options, I probably will attempt some serious writing at some point. I actually have a extremely unique life story that might be worth jabbering about at some point in the future - that would probably be genuinely compelling reading. But writing a biography at 28 surely has to be as ludicrous as it sounds - also I haven't really done anything noteworthy but laugh at the endless insanity that was my entire world until I ran away at 14 to attend my first ever year of school. (my parents were hilarious religious nuts of the 'batshit crazy' variety, and that's me being a little coy and even a little kind in my description).

I wanna attempt fiction - but I'd have to go back to school to study writing before even making a laughable first attempt. And well, we're going around in circles. It would be really hot if talented writers could find their way to my flat and teach me at random times of my choosing. Pretty selfish and lazy of them not to, imo. I'm not sure I like this established and widely accepted business model of forcing students into the tortuously repetitive hassle of routine showering, wearing freshly laundered clothes, commuting, socialising and studying together in a distant location (distant = > 100m away). I just can't see anyone signing up for that - the whole thing reeks of 'effort'.

I'm tempted to just copycat Hunter S. Thompson's MO. At best, I might produce something worth reading. At worst, I'll probably have an adventure or two - I just hope the 'adventures' don't require much effort. That would almost certainly ruin them.

What casino was this JHV? was this in Sydney or Melbourne?, I haave many friends that worked at the caisno in Sydney with exact same stories as yourself.

really great posts by you as well, hope you do stick around for a while and post things like this often.
Your post really hit home and thanks for that.

 

[JHV]

Jupiters - Gold Coast. I still can't go in without mild feelings of Post Traumatic Stress or something - it's weird.

I got dragged in to play poker by a drunk friend an Xmas or 2 ago. I noticed a former workmate standing behind empty blackjack table. For 20 months, we spoke a few times a day on breaks and he was probably one of my 'best' friends at work, I guess (we were on same shifts and both smokers). I head over to say G'day. He doesn't know who I am. I think he's Avin a Larf for a painfully long time until it just registers - he doesn't know who I am.

I say Hi to a few other people I knew well from my time there. They're just dead to the world. No flicker of recognition. I was slightly drunk and wondering if I was in Twilight Zone.

I swear I thought I was just imagining this shit till I asked the poker table - and one dude is like "of course they're all zombies. only a zombie could survive working in this place every day".

And I realised he was probably right. You'd have to shut off something that makes you human, I think....to last there a decade, I mean. I don't know how I did 20 months. Just thinking about it makes me shiver. People there have done 15 years and shit - I can't comprehend how mentally strong (or cold / dead emotionally) you'd have to be to last that long.

 

[slotheadlizard]

JHV

I believe this has to be the optimal approach, yes. From an extremely young age, I've had very strong opinions on the sanctity of individual liberty - but to see what I saw during those 20 months was confronting. I found myself questioning my core political beliefs, and wondering if in fact, the state should not do more (maybe a great deal more) to protect some people from themselves. All I know is that it's a great deal more complex and grey an issue than my First Year Intro to Pol lecturers at uni would have had us believe. I strongly believe that casinos are not taxed heavily enough (actually I feel that way about most of the 'vice' industries) for the widespread damage to society they facilitate - and government (taxpayers) are left with the bill whilst casino owners get filthy rich with [in Australia] monopoly licenses acquired almost certainly NOT through any form of transparent process, of that I am certain.

God knows I could have used an intervention at times this year. With my background, there was almost a ludicrous irony in my house edge gambling. As retarded as it sounds, there might also have been a slight stubborn streak to it - where it seemed that, the more people would lecture me on stopping the madness, the more I would gamble in response, adopting a somewhat childish or brattish attitude of "I freaking worked hard to make this money. If I want to burn it on stupidity, by God, I will. And good luck attempting to stop me." - or something silly like that.

But overall my shockingly wasteful dumping of late was more of a side-effect caused by other, more complex issues - or maybe not so complex. Pure, unadulterated boredom is a force more powerful than I could have ever guessed at prior to this year.

And thinking back about occasional times I would deal to VIP or High Rollers Lounge in those painful months as a croupier, I genuinely believe the people there gambling ridiculous sums were (for the most part) just bored out of their mind. Very few ever appeared to be having much genuine 'fun' - I think for most, it was just a desperate attempt at distraction. And I can sympathise with that on a personal level.

----

The writing thing...I enjoy writing but, apart from completing an entertaining (but completely useless) Arts degree at uni (and the associated million required essays), I haven't ever studied writing in any way, shape or form. And although I suspect I'd likely enjoy some form of creative writing course or some platform to build some technical skills, the truth of the matter is I'm so lazy of late it's *almost* embarrassing. And I've been a geek / workaholic my entire life. This year is like Reverse Bizarro World for me.

People (well, my Mum and Aunt) are telling me I should write though, and for want of any other options, I probably will attempt some serious writing at some point. I actually have a extremely unique life story that might be worth jabbering about at some point in the future - that would probably be genuinely compelling reading. But writing a biography at 28 surely has to be as ludicrous as it sounds - also I haven't really done anything noteworthy but laugh at the endless insanity that was my entire world until I ran away at 14 to attend my first ever year of school. (my parents were hilarious religious nuts of the 'batshit crazy' variety, and that's me being a little coy and even a little kind in my description).

I wanna attempt fiction - but I'd have to go back to school to study writing before even making a laughable first attempt. And well, we're going around in circles. It would be really hot if talented writers could find their way to my flat and teach me at random times of my choosing. Pretty selfish and lazy of them not to, imo. I'm not sure I like this established and widely accepted business model of forcing students into the tortuously repetitive hassle of routine showering, wearing freshly laundered clothes, commuting, socialising and studying together in a distant location (distant = > 100m away). I just can't see anyone signing up for that - the whole thing reeks of 'effort'.

I'm tempted to just copycat Hunter S. Thompson's MO. At best, I might produce something worth reading. At worst, I'll probably have an adventure or two - I just hope the 'adventures' don't require much effort. That would almost certainly ruin them.

Thanks for your reply. Ok, maybe you are not ready for that great first novel, but you are a good writer weather you realise it or not. I'm a reader, and love to be in fiction all of the time.

As far as writing a biopic piece at 28, many great writers have done some of their best work at a very young age. I actually don't think it has so much to do with age as it does substance. A good story is a good story. Besides who said it had to be a biography. I see three of four topics in just this post alone-early run away, crazy religious bible thumping parents, useless (in you opinion) art degree, etc. I bet if you just journalized your previous posts you would have 50 pages, lol. So maybe one day

Not to get all parenty on you but you may want to be a little more proactive with your aspirations. I don't think John le Carrr'e will be knocking on your door anytime soon, unless of course he is a CM member.

 

[LaurieJim]

WOW!!!!!!!! you blew me away with that JHV, best read in a long time imo!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................laurie

 

[slotheadlizard]

I agree

WOW!!!!!!!! you blew me away with that JHV, best read in a long time imo!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................laurie

I just can't stop thinking about that mother. Not so much her as a person, but the whole dilemma as a hit home metaphor. I had never really considered how much control the casinos really have over people. Mainly the fact that it is so intentional by the industry.

For some reason I play a lot more reasonably online than at a B&M. I'm always skeptical about the dodgy unseen forces behind them. In person though, I think hey if I win I'll certainly get paid right away so I dump loads of cash into them. I saw some of myself in his example, and didn't like it. I'm gonna focus on responsible gaming at the B&Ms, and only go 3 or 4 times per year. I use to frequent maybe once a week or so.

Online though I play with a strict budget to a certain card or wallet, when its gone oh well. Plus forums, and free mode curb the desire a lot.

 

[JHV]

Not to get all parenty on you but you may want to be a little more proactive with your aspirations. I don't think John le Carrr'e will be knocking on your door anytime soon, unless of course he is a CM member.

Sigh. Dreams dashed. I love John le Carre. Picked up "The Spy Who Came In From The Cold" bored out of my mind at some airport after missing flight. Think I finished every le Carre novel by the following fortnight. None really matched his first - but that guy can morph prose and dialogue and plot like few living authors can, absolute genius.

It's a source of depression to me that some of the world's most successful authors are, well, crappy writers. I don't know what's going on with Jeffrey Archer after he got out of gaol, but if he wrote his last novel, I'll run naked from Bangkok to the Cambodian border. Some teenage hack penned that piece of tripe and Archer stamped his name on it. I'm not saying 'Kane & Abel' or 'Honour Among Theives' are masterpieces, but I genuinely believe I could - at this moment - write a better novel than 'his' last bestseller.

I won't get started on Dan Brown. Ridiculous that the most successful novel in history (if we discount the Bible as [incredibly crappy] fiction) was written by such a hack. I weep for the world, the world that went nuts over that pathetic excuse for a novel.

 

[Jasminebed]

My best friend from high school, Tanya Huff, went on to become a successful novelist, but she worked hard to get there. Joined writer's groups, attended fan conventions, learnt to write "spec" scripts for Hollywood, etc. etc. It was not until the advance for her third novel, nevermind the short fiction she published, that she acheived the financial freedom to just write, and even then, her partner helped with household income.

She's doing very well these days however. Those familiar with the television series Blood Ties will know her characters; she's also worked as creative consultant on some of the scripts.

You can even find me as a minor thief character in the novel Sing the Four Quarters!

I wish you well Scooter. The only real way to write is to write, but I think joining authors' groups are a very useful tool for those who are serious about their writing.

BTW, my ex-husband was an award winning short fiction author, and even got a Canada Council grant that allowed him six months of living in poverty to pursue his dream. He failed to achieve financial success, but my daughter tells me he is still writing.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Thanks for making this thread. imhop, losing the rent money gambling is, in it self, not an addiction. It becomes an addiction when the person either/and, loses control over the ability to walk away, or stay away. This then becomes worse, when they can not learn their lesson, and make the needed changes, to be able to still Gamble, but to it responsibly.

The worse thing i ever saw here in Vegas was at Casino Royale, several years ago. The Guy was from Asia, and playing BJ. He has never been to Las Vegas before, and except for a friday night playing poker with friends in Japan, had never gambled before. I was at the table with him.

After about 1/2 hour, he was about even. He then started pressing his bets. He started loosing. His wife came over, and he yelled at her to give him money out of her purse. She Did. He lost it in 2 hands. I left the table. On my way out, i heard crying. The Man was trying to take the purse away from the wife, while she was clinging onto it laying on the floor, and crying/begging for him to stop..........................................

Now, this was of course not the way they had planned to spend their Vacation in Las Vegas. He did not come to Las Vegas to break the bank, or to try to turn $500 in $500,000. They came to visit, take pictures, gamble a little, have fun, and go home happy.

So, what went wrong?

Whenever you enter an envirement you have not been in before, and have little to no expierience in, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW AHEAD OF TIME HOW IT WILL AFFECT YOU. Not just Gambling, but anything.

Don't steal from me............................

No one likes to have things taken away from. It was yours, you worked hard to get it, and it makes you sick if you walk out of the store, and your bike is gone. You walk into your house, and it has been looted. You go to leave for work, and your car is up on blocks, and all the Rims/tires are gone, and so on.

You are just gonna gamble at little bit. Fine, i only lost $50. Hey, it is only $50 more to try to win it back......................$100 gone. No.....no......no.....ATM Machine withdraw of $200, and i will get back what i lost, and make a profit..................$300 gone. WTF?

You had no intention of risking anything close to $300. Yor $700 in rent is due today, but now you only have $600 left in the bank. What to do?

Sample Plan:
Get paid
Pay the rent
Pay the power/phone/cable bill
Buy food to last until next payday.
Then, after this, go gamble. Even if you lose all the rest, you have a roof over your head, and food to eat.

Gambling Plan:
Write down all the different times you lost a lot of money.
Write down what game you were playing.
Write down what happened in that game that caused you to lose.
NEVER LET THAT SAME THING HAPPEN AGAIN.

Example.
Lost $500 in BJ.
Lost 12 hands in a row.

Lost $1000 in Roulette
#'s together on the wheel, 0-26-32, went 104 spins in a row with no hits.

Lost $700 at Sic Bo.
Dice total of 4 or 17, went 168 rolls in a row without coming up.
..........and so on........................

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, i made the above mentioned adjustments, stopped chasing bets into infinity and beyound, stopped letting what is not normal be what beats be.

I will tell you this. Outside of Winning, there is no better feeling at a Table, than to lose a few bets in a row, drop down to the table Min bet, and bet that until the loosing streak ends. Look up and saw that you just lost 14 times in a row, and look down at your chips, AND MOST OF THEM ARE STILL THERE...........

 

[dominique]

According to the national council on problem gambling 85% of the US population have gambled or do gamble, and around 1% become addicted.

In comparison, alcohol addiction information states that 66% of the population in the United States consumes alcohol and 9.6% are alcoholics.

I was not surprised by the difference in addiction percentages, but that 85% gamble or have gambled and only 66% drink alcohol surprised me.

 

[JHV]

According to the national council on problem gambling 85% of the US population have gambled or do gamble, and around 1% become addicted.

In comparison, alcohol addiction information states that 66% of the population in the United States consumes alcohol and 9.6% are alcoholics.

I was not surprised by the difference in addiction percentages, but that 85% gamble or have gambled and only 66% drink alcohol surprised me.

I call shenanigans on that 1% figure. If 85% are gambling, I'll bet my net worth plus 1mil that more than 1% are addicted. Come on...

 

[dominique]

Don't shoot the messenger, shoot the National Council on Gambling Addiction if you don't believe the figures - I just copied it straight from their site.

 

[lots0]

I call shenanigans on that 1% figure. If 85% are gambling, I'll bet my net worth plus 1mil that more than 1% are addicted. Come on...

Often times when you are overly exposed to one segment of society (addicted Gamblers) it seems like the whole world is part of that unfortunate population... when in fact it really is just a very very small percentage of the total population.

As far as the dealers being "Zombies"... Well, I think any job where you see hundreds of different faces a day, thousands of faces a week... all the faces start to look alike after a year or two.

Maybe if you had went up to your old co-workers and said, "Hey remember me?"... you might have had a very different response.

 

[cpdnd31]

I am truly sorry that you have such horrid memories when working in your casino. I too have worked in casinos for many years. I started as a dealer moved up to supervisor and eventually was training. I truly believe this job is not for everyone. You have to be able to laugh, cry, and hold your breath quite a bit. I too saw sad things, but I also have many wonderful memories. I learned as a dealer that I was their physcologist , their friend, their family when they had no one. I never cried harder than the 82 year old telling me on christmas how he had 8 kids and not one of them called or invited him over. He may have been a bastard to them I don't know but he was nice to me. Every holiday I worked he was their until the day he died. I gave advice, learned new things, watched couples meet as well as break up. I truly enjoyed working for my casinos. I miss it much, why don't I still work for them, almost 2 years ago I fell broke my neck in 2 spots, out of all the things to lose, I lost the feeling in my fingers, cant cut cheuques, and left arm. Can't deal, can't train can't supervise a lifetime of work over in a moment. But I'm not dead and I'm not quadrapegic, I now enjoy every moment with my kids. I miss the casino life for the face paced envoirement, for the friends and for the family that I met and made over the years. One I my favorite memories I had was when the WII first came out and you couldnt find it anywhere, I was telling different customers from different towns that if they see any stores with wii to let me know it was the only thing my son wanted for xmas. Do you know we had 5 WIIs sent to my pit within a weeks time. I thanked my customers tried to pay for them they said no, wouldnt take a dime. Got their permission and donated them to different charaties for christmas. So yes casinos have loosers big time in them and people with some major problems but they also have some of the most kind hearted considerate people. Thats what I miss the most.

 

[slotheadlizard]

Cool

My best friend from high school, Tanya Huff, went on to become a successful novelist, but she worked hard to get there. Joined writer's groups, attended fan conventions, learnt to write "spec" scripts for Hollywood, etc. etc. It was not until the advance for her third novel, nevermind the short fiction she published, that she acheived the financial freedom to just write, and even then, her partner helped with household income.

She's doing very well these days however. Those familiar with the television series Blood Ties will know her characters; she's also worked as creative consultant on some of the scripts.

You can even find me as a minor thief character in the novel Sing the Four Quarters!

I wish you well Scooter. The only real way to write is to write, but I think joining authors' groups are a very useful tool for those who are serious about their writing.



BTW, my ex-husband was an award winning short fiction author, and even got a Canada Council grant that allowed him six months of living in poverty to pursue his dream. He failed to achieve financial success, but my daughter tells me he is still writing.

That's really cool about your old chum, and your ex. I agree, just write, write write. I love writing, but mainly for therapy-journals etc. I love reading, and listening (audiobooks) even more, have read hundreds of novels, in all genres. In college I helped teach creative writing for extra credit, and quickly found that I simply love stories. I can probably find merritt in any piece of work.

I can tell Sooter knows his authors, but is clearly not ready to jump write in. Besides who the heck am I to give career advice. For me to talk about writing and fiction would so derail this thread!

I would encourage anyone to just write, many will not achieve financial success, who cares. Put it on paper, you never know.

PS I'm gonna try to find some of those Blood Books in the US, look very interesting!

 

[slotheadlizard]

Thanks

I am truly sorry that you have such horrid memories when working in your casino. I too have worked in casinos for many years. I started as a dealer moved up to supervisor and eventually was training. I truly believe this job is not for everyone. You have to be able to laugh, cry, and hold your breath quite a bit. I too saw sad things, but I also have many wonderful memories. I learned as a dealer that I was their physcologist , their friend, their family when they had no one. I never cried harder than the 82 year old telling me on christmas how he had 8 kids and not one of them called or invited him over. He may have been a bastard to them I don't know but he was nice to me. Every holiday I worked he was their until the day he died. I gave advice, learned new things, watched couples meet as well as break up. I truly enjoyed working for my casinos. I miss it much, why don't I still work for them, almost 2 years ago I fell broke my neck in 2 spots, out of all the things to lose, I lost the feeling in my fingers, cant cut cheuques, and left arm. Can't deal, can't train can't supervise a lifetime of work over in a moment. But I'm not dead and I'm not quadrapegic, I now enjoy every moment with my kids. I miss the casino life for the face paced envoirement, for the friends and for the family that I met and made over the years. One I my favorite memories I had was when the WII first came out and you couldnt find it anywhere, I was telling different customers from different towns that if they see any stores with wii to let me know it was the only thing my son wanted for xmas. Do you know we had 5 WIIs sent to my pit within a weeks time. I thanked my customers tried to pay for them they said no, wouldnt take a dime. Got their permission and donated them to different charaties for christmas. So yes casinos have loosers big time in them and people with some major problems but they also have some of the most kind hearted considerate people. Thats what I miss the most.

Thanks for you take on your work experience. I'm sorry about your accident, but glad you are otherwise OK. I truly believe that everyone who has worked in a casino will walk away with very diverse opinions and experiences. I just like hearing about the industry, good or bad.

The best caught on tape shows to me are when someone tries to take a casino, some get away with it, but they usually get caught. I have some friends who work at the new Hollywood Casino in IN. Most of them enjoy their job, one is a dealer. He shares some pretty wild stories, some are eye opening like Scooter's, and some touching like yours. He once got a 200 tip on a 200 bet. He was sooo happy! I think he had to share it though.

Then there is the great story in the book Double Down about two brothers who were thrown out of a casino for suspected cheating in cahoots with a dealer. I won't spoil the story in case someone wants to ever read it. Its a good book and non fiction.

Thanks for your input

 

[JHV]

Often times when you are overly exposed to one segment of society (addicted Gamblers) it seems like the whole world is part of that unfortunate population... when in fact it really is just a very very small percentage of the total population.

After almost 2 million poker hands played in the last 5 yrs, I say without arrogance and with great humility that I'm somewhat certain I've been exposed to the concept of 'perception bias'.

But I'm telling you that of the 200 mil or w/e and the 13 mil or w/e adults in US and Aust, that the % of those people addicted to gambling is much higher than 1%.

Obviously, the true % will depend on how you define 'addiction' - but no matter how you define it (within logic), that number will be a lot higher than 1%.

 

[JHV]

I can tell Sooter knows his authors, but is clearly not ready to jump write in. Besides who the heck am I to give career advice. For me to talk about writing and fiction would so derail this thread!

I would encourage anyone to just write, many will not achieve financial success, who cares. Put it on paper, you never know.

I'm fairly skilled at being able to objectively analyse my own limitations, and am very much a realist. One would have to be a deluded fool or gifted genius to believe they could create 'art' with no serious training. I am neither.

Also, I'm acquainted with some semi-successful authors, and they don't make much at all. Were I to take a more serious attitude to my writing, it would not be with the plan to make serious money from it. I would be incredibly satisfied just to get something published that I was 'moderately' satisfied with.

 

[WagerWitch]

Scooter...

I like you.

And that's hard to accomplish... LOL!

(OK - not true - I like EVERYONE - except those that hurt others.)

You're a very good writer - and I'm going to make the suggestion that you sit down and write your story out - THE GAMBLING one...

And you sell it.

Because while you won't be making a ton of money on it --- YOU WILL - of course give your writing to others... which is where good writing should be... In the hands of others.

 

[deucebag]

After almost 2 million poker hands played in the last 5 yrs, I say without arrogance and with great humility that I'm somewhat certain I've been exposed to the concept of 'perception bias'.

But I'm telling you that of the 200 mil or w/e and the 13 mil or w/e adults in US and Aust, that the % of those people addicted to gambling is much higher than 1%.

Obviously, the true % will depend on how you define 'addiction' - but no matter how you define it (within logic), that number will be a lot higher than 1%.

Actually, all problem gambling surveys I am aware of show that less than 1% of the population are gambling addicts.

Here is one: Old / Expired Link

Another interesting thing is that there is no statistically significant difference in the prevalence in problem gambling in countries with a very very high availability of gambling (such as the UK), compared to countries with less availability. (This does not mean that problem gamblers don't get in more serious problems with a higher availability of gambling).

While there are some similarities between substance addiction and gambling addiction, there are many more differences.

Generally, gambling is far less addictive than your typical addictive substance. Most people can gamble regularly for years without ever getting problems, while others can't.

Another difference is that gamblers who make the choice of wanting to quit, have a very high success rate compared to substance abusers. Generally, the success rate for gambling addicts who receive professional help is much greater than for substance abusers.

 

[Jasminebed]

Statistics from the Ontario Problem Gambling Research Centre

Well, I made a couple of phone calls today, and managed to get some statistics.

3.4 percent of the general population are considered to have moderate to severe gambling problems.

4.8 percent of the gambling population are considered to have moderate to severe gambling problems.

If only the "severe" group is considered, then it is about 1 percent of the general population.

The Ontario Problem Gambling Research Centre is funded through gambling revenues in Ontario, together with help and treatment programs.

If anyone wants more information on the specifics of the studies, or the methodology, PM me and I will try to get what you need.

 

[chuchu59]

Well, I made a couple of phone calls today, and managed to get some statistics.

3.4 percent of the general population are considered to have moderate to severe gambling problems.

4.8 percent of the gambling population are considered to have moderate to severe gambling problems.

If only the "severe" group is considered, then it is about 1 percent of the general population.

The Ontario Problem Gambling Research Centre is funded through gambling revenues in Ontario, together with help and treatment programs.

If anyone wants more information on the specifics of the studies, or the methodology, PM me and I will try to get what you need.

Hi Jazzie,

From the stats it seems that 70% of the general population are gamblers.

BTW, how are things going dear?

 

[dominique]

Cool, so these are the Canadian stats. Both the Canadian, UK and the US agencies seem to see it much the same way.

The US divides it into gambling addiction and problem gamblers, much the same way alcohol abusers are divided into problem drinkers and alcoholics.

The premise is that an addiction is something that cannot be helped without treatment aiming to totally eliminate the behavior, while problem behavior can be modified by the person him/herself even without completely stopping.

I was for instance a problem drinker for a stretch there in my youth, but for decades now I only drink one glass of wine with dinner (with exception of rare parties) and am perfectly happy. An alcoholic could not do this, it's all or nothing there. (just to explain the difference)

The numbers I quoted were for addiction only. So it chimes...

 

[JHV]

Well, I made a couple of phone calls today, and managed to get some statistics.

3.4 percent of the general population are considered to have moderate to severe gambling problems.

4.8 percent of the gambling population are considered to have moderate to severe gambling problems.

If only the "severe" group is considered, then it is about 1 percent of the general population.

The Ontario Problem Gambling Research Centre is funded through gambling revenues in Ontario, together with help and treatment programs.

If anyone wants more information on the specifics of the studies, or the methodology, PM me and I will try to get what you need.

I'm interested in the specifics, if it's not a hassle for you, that is?

I think I disagree with how the 'experts' are distinguishing between addiction and problem gambling.

I know drug addicts who are 100% addicted who live completely functional lives (i.e. doctors, lawyers) - their families wouldn't have a clue they even take hard drugs, let alone aware they are and have been addicted for many years.

I see 'addiction' as being unable to control your actions as they relate to xxx. If you define 'addiction' as being "unable to be modified without treatment aimed at complete elimination of the behaviour"....well, I think that's a little silly (personal opinion). For some months of this year, I was technically ADDICTED to online casino gambling (losing hundreds of thousands in the process), but I knew at any point, I could stop - and I have. Without treatment. This does not mean I was not addicted in the meantime - I certainly was. I just didn't care about the damage until bankruptcy loomed on the horizon as a legitimate possibility.

--------

Also, I made a mistake of lumping Australia with the US before. In Australia, we have more pokies per capita than any country in the world. Almost every single pub/club/bar has rows upon rows of pokies - I'm not talking video poker machines, these are like "slots" - and, in Australia, most slots have 13% house advantage. The numbers of people addicted to slots in Australia would blow you away - it's actually an issue which has spiraled completely out of control, but the state governments rely so heavily on the huge tax revenues generated by the the pokies industry, that fixing the problem becomes hugely complicated.

The sportsbetting (specifically racing, trots, greyhounds) culture in Australia is also probably the most powerful (of all the countries in the world). It's a national pastime.

To claim that only 1% of the > 18 yr old population in Australia is "addicted" to gambling is just hilarious. I realise US/Canada/UK/Europe are in a different boat - but I still think that 1% figure for those countries is very much lol (especially the UK, where betting shops are on every street corner - and online gambling is completely legal and regulated).

 

[deucebag]

Also, I made a mistake of lumping Australia with the US before. In Australia, we have more pokies per capita than any country in the world. Almost every single pub/club/bar has rows upon rows of pokies - I'm not talking video poker machines, these are like "slots" - and, in Australia, most slots have 13% house advantage. The numbers of people addicted to slots in Australia would blow you away -
To claim that only 1% of the > 18 yr old population in Australia is "addicted" to gambling is just hilarious. I realise US/Canada/UK/Europe are in a different boat - but I still think that 1% figure for those countries is very much lol (especially the UK, where betting shops are on every street corner - and online gambling is completely legal and regulated).

It would be interesting to hear the basis for your sweeping and definitive conclusions. According to the survey I have linked below, percentage of problem gamblers in Australia is 1.6%.

Old / Expired Link

 

[spearmaster]

Deucebag, your link is for South Australia, which is one of the least densely populated states in Australia, Adelaide being its largest city.

I haven't seen recent figures for Australia, but from past knowledge I know that pokies are a huge problem. When I moderated a session between Betfair and the Australian Racing Board in 2003 at a conference, I actually studied the figures in advance, as well as visiting a few different locations. As far as I can recall, the percentage of problem gamblers was significantly higher than the number quoted by your South Australian report.

If I recall correctly, that number was somewhere around 8%. This is a huge number - I also recall that Australia was said to have the worst gambling problem amongst Westernized nations.

So while I haven't seen any recent numbers, I'd tend to agree with JHV as far as pokies/problem gamblers are concerned. However, I must disagree with the sportbetting, especially in relation to racing - Japan and Hong Kong are much worse. Put it this way - the Melbourne Cup is televised live in Hong Kong, probably Japan as well - and not the other way around.

edit -> Asked my best friend Google to find some data - the following link is part of research done in Australia in 2007, primarily on EGM (electronic gaming machines - aka pokies) players - if you follow along you will see that 20% of those surveyed were classified as problem gamblers!

Here is the relevant part - Old / Expired Link

and the link to the main page -
Old / Expired Link

edit part 2 -> Google also discovered the following information:

Japan has 10% racing tax plus 50% of surplus profits paid to the government.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Hong Kong's racing tax is 72.5-75% of gross margin, the highest in the world.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You can sort of derive the volumes from these numbers. Hong Kong's betting turnover in the 2008-2009 season was roughly $8.5 billion dollars. Japan's betting turnover in 2006 was - wait for it - $28 trillion - and that does not including horse racing organized by local governments, only those operated by the Japan Racing Association.

 

[JHV]

It would be interesting to hear the basis for your sweeping and definitive conclusions. According to the survey I have linked below, percentage of problem gamblers in Australia is 1.6%.

Old / Expired Link

Firstly, in Australia, there are exactly ZERO 'independent' (and therefore, objective) studies done in regards to problem gambling. The closest you'll get are ones like this one you've linked to, sponsored by? The South Australia state government - for whom, the hundreds of millions of annual tax revenue from the gambling industries clearly creates a conflict of interest and makes the report worthless, in my opinion.

Now, and I realise many will disagree with me on this, if you cut out all the fluff about gambling being 'entertainment' (which it certainly is, if only a super tiny % of your income is spent on it)....the hardcore truth of the matter is that ALL gambling on negative expectation wagers is, by clinical definition, PROBLEM GAMBLING. So, if you're being brutally honest and objective, 99.999% of gamblers in Australia have a PROBLEM with their gambling (especially considering that TAB and SportsBetting agencies run on 16% spreads, pokies are almost all 13% HA, casino game rules range from 2-3% for perfectly played BJ and roulette to over 15-20% for Caribbean Stud and sidebets like Perfect Pairs and jackpots). Lotto games like PowerBall and others have HA as high as 80% or even higher. Well over 50% of adults in Australia buy lottery tickets, which are available at every newsagent in the country. Australia has over 1/5th of the WORLD'S slot machines. We are a nation of 20 million or so.

Now, we can argue all day about where to draw the line on what % of income expended turns a recreational pastime into "problem gambling" - the honest-to-god truth is that 95% of the (otherwise highly educated) adult population of Australia has no clear understanding of the concept of "house edge", and 99.9% would not be able to tell you what % house advantage is on the wagers they are making. If they truly understood, they would be nauseous - many are just not intelligent enough to grasp the concept, others have no real interest either way, others might understand the concept but consider themselves *lucky* and therefore unaffected by the mathematics. 99.9999% (no exaggeration) simply do not truly understand the nature of variance - 99.99% of successful online poker pros don't truly understand the nature and power of variance.

I say all this to explain that the people doing these studies, the "experts" if you will, aren't nearly intelligent enough to even begin to create objective and intelligent studies into the issue. I've had conversations with "experts" of this nature (who VERY much were objective and interested in what I was trying to explain to them - but the simple fact, and I apologise if this sounds arrogant, is that they simply aren't intelligent enough to comprehend this kind of stuff - shit, I was a mathematics geek and studied statistical modeling and sample size confidence intervals at university level, and I couldn't even become close to understanding the true nature of these issues until many years into a hugely successful professional gambling career).

Now, the study you've linked to is from 2005. We're now in 2009 and the internet gambling explosion during the last 4 years makes this particular study obsolete to the point of hilarity (obviously).

The number of people represented by this rate was approximately 18,000 adults (range 16,000 to 20,000), of whom 5,000 are high risk gamblers.

This is one of the "key findings" on page 3 of that report. This "finding" is so ludicrous, I'm going to struggle to even read further. In my first year working at Jupiters, I saw WAY more than 5000 high risk gamblers come through that place, and we're talking about a single tiny land-based casino not even located in the state capital.

Frequent gamblers (respondents who gambled every week or fortnight) were asked about issues that indicated problems with gambling, and about the impacts that gambling may be having on their life.

Do I really need to point out the ludicrous nature of this method of "studying" an issue? Please tell me I do not. Please tell me that you understand that surveying gamblers as to how they personally felt about their gambling activities will give you results so redundant, the "doctors" and "experts" who conducted this study should be ridiculed.

I could go on and on, but the key issues I believe I've covered.

Cliffnotes:

State and Territory governments in Australia derive > 10% of their annual revenue from gambling taxes. All studies commissioned by government departments are, by this very fact, impossible to classify as 'objective'.

The number of people in Australia who truly understand the somewhat complex key issues (an understanding required to even attempt such a study) is probably less than 1000 people. This is a serious estimate.

All gambling that is negative EV (expected value) is, by definition, *problem* gambling. Clearly, if you make $50,000/annum after tax and wager $5/week on a lottery ticket, you do NOT have a gambling problem. But you have to understand the first sentence of this paragraph. Negative expectation gambling, despite efforts by the gambling industry to label the activity as 'entertainment' or 'leisure activity', is problem gambling. You are handing money to another party on every -EV bet.

All the available "studies" (of which you can probably guess my opinion/s as to their 'value') seem to be conducted in 2005 or thereabouts. The last 4 years has seen massive explosion in internet/online gambling, to levels that would blow the collective minds of interested non-industry involved persons.

Surveying gamblers for their responses and personal opinions on gambling is so ludicrous a research method, I'm torn between laughter and anger. Any further expansion on this point is redundant.

-------

A crude, but far more accurate, method to get a rough idea of the levels of problem gambling would be to compare per capita gambling expenditure (assuming we can even rely on the accuracy of these figures, knowing that they are delivered by non-objective sources) with average per capita income.

I'm too lazy to spend more than a few minutes online for a recent per capita number, but a 2007 BBC article has the following numbers:

Since 1990-91, real per capita expenditure has increased from $A470.60 (US$360) to $A931.64 in 1999-2000. The figure now is likely to be much higher.

1991? lol. "now likely to be much higher?" lollllllllllllllllllllllllllollercaust. Ah, BBC, you crack me up. How does BBC hire a journalist who doesn't understand the concept of CPI or...um...the INTERNET as it's developed from 1991 to 2007. The world makes me laugh at times.

Oh, here we go - a more recent figure on per capita expense from the UK Telegraph:

The country has an estimated 300,000 "problem gamblers", the highest level per capita in the world, who lose an average of A$12,000 a year on "pokies" - glorified fruit machines promising hefty payouts.

On pokies. This number is for pokies only. Just pokies people. Pokies in Australia account for probably 30% (guess only) of gambling expenditure.

After-tax average salary in Australia is something like $20-30,000. And this number is heavily distorted by the "80/20 rule". Ignoring that, after mortgages, utilities, vehicle/transport costs...the average 'expendable' amount an Australian adult has is probably something like $10,000/year (to spend or save).

I'll end this post now, but I hope I've done a decent job of explaining that I'm not talking out of my ass - I kinda know this shit. And it's kinda fucked up, to be honest.

That 1% number. How do I feel about it? I guess...."lol?"

 

[deucebag]

....the hardcore truth of the matter is that ALL gambling on negative expectation wagers is, by clinical definition, PROBLEM GAMBLING.




Do I really need to point out the ludicrous nature of this method of "studying" an issue? Please tell me I do not. Please tell me that you understand that surveying gamblers as to how they personally felt about their gambling activities will give you results so redundant, the "doctors" and "experts" who conducted this study should be ridiculed.

All gambling that is negative EV (expected value) is, by definition, *problem* gambling. Clearly, if you make $50,000/annum after tax and wager $5/week on a lottery ticket, you do NOT have a gambling problem. But you have to understand the first sentence of this paragraph. Negative expectation gambling, despite efforts by the gambling industry to label the activity as 'entertainment' or 'leisure activity', is problem gambling. You are handing money to another party on every -EV bet.

but I hope I've done a decent job of explaining that I'm not talking out of my ass - I kinda know this shit. And it's kinda fucked up, to be honest.

That 1% number. How do I feel about it? I guess...."lol?"

How do you think gambling addiction is diagnosed? By asking the patient about their gambling habits and how it impacts their lives (or as you put it "how they feel about their gambling").

When you come from the POV that all -EV gambling is problem gambling, then I don't see any point in discussing this. Almost every pastime costs money and is -EV, but that does not in itself make them societal problems.

To me, and the professional community, problem gambling is gambling that causes financial and/or social problems for the gambler. That people in your view waste their money on -EV activities is not in itself a social problem that society needs to concern itself with, IMO.

 

[JHV]

How do you think gambling addiction is diagnosed? By asking the patient about their gambling habits and how it impacts their lives (or as you put it "how they feel about their gambling").

When you come from the POV that all -EV gambling is problem gambling, then I don't see any point in discussing this. Almost every pastime costs money and is -EV, but that does not in itself make them societal problems.

To me, and the professional community, problem gambling is gambling that causes financial and/or social problems for the gambler. That people in your view waste their money on -EV activities is not in itself a social problem that society needs to concern itself with, IMO.

No, you're right - you misunderstood me (perhaps due to my failure to communicate my position properly).

As you say, "problem gambling is gambling that causes financial and/or social problems for the gambler". 100% correct.

I say, "...if you make $50,000/annum and spend $5/week on a lottery ticket, obviously you don't have a problem."

It's where you draw on the line - and that is subjective. I used some figures in my post which clearly explains that, no matter where you draw the line, the 1% figure is completely lol.

As to your apparent opinion that "asking gamblers about how they feel about their gambling and whether it is a problem" is a logical approach to assessing an issue...I apologise if this sounds arrogant or rude...but we'll have to end our debate there. I am unable to participate further. As you clearly (you damn lucky bastird ) have zero clue as to how addicts or people affected by 'vice' personally view their activities.

 

[spearmaster]

All gambling that is negative EV (expected value) is, by definition, *problem* gambling. Clearly, if you make $50,000/annum after tax and wager $5/week on a lottery ticket, you do NOT have a gambling problem. But you have to understand the first sentence of this paragraph. Negative expectation gambling, despite efforts by the gambling industry to label the activity as 'entertainment' or 'leisure activity', is problem gambling. You are handing money to another party on every -EV bet.

I cannot agree with this. The survey I linked above has very specific methods for determining who is classified as a problem gambler - and yet it still showed up 20% of those surveyed.

-EV bets are not problem gambling. -EV bets are gambling. If bets weren't -EV or at least 50/50, that wouldn't be gambling now, would it?

 

[JHV]

-EV bets are gambling. If bets weren't -EV or at least 50/50, that wouldn't be gambling now, would it?

Um, no. lol.

Trust me, I was not "lucky" to make $1mil playing poker. I was actually extremely unlucky not to make $3mil during that time and can prove that with graphs and statistical evidence. Not that I care too much, as evidence by my *almost* successful demolition of that mil in the last few months on house edge.

Many wagers are neutral or +EV. Some are HUGELY +EV. Like when my friends play me for $1000 Monopoly games on pogo.com

 

[spearmaster]

Um, no. lol.

Trust me, I was not "lucky" to make $1mil playing poker. I was actually extremely unlucky not to make $3mil during that time and can prove that with graphs and statistical evidence. Not that I care too much, as evidence by my *almost* successful demolition of that mil in the last few months on house edge.

Many wagers are neutral or +EV. Some are HUGELY +EV. Like when my friends play me for $1000 Monopoly games on pogo.com

LOL.

As you probably know, poker is generally considered by many to be a game of skill, not gambling... the only time you gamble at poker is when you bluff! The rest of the time it should be a good knowledge of the various odds, as well as knowing your opponent. (ok that's a bit of a stretch but I was referring to casino gambling).

But I will allow that there are certain times when gambling can be +EV... just not at a casino! (excluding bonuses, of course)

Anyhow - I agree with your perception on Australian problem gambling. Pokies are a major scourge.

BTW - for non-Australians - pokies are actually the 5-reel, multiple-line video slots you've been playing online for years now! The only difference is that you'll find better odds online than you will at a pokie parlour!

 

[JHV]

As you probably know, poker is generally considered by many to be a game of skill, not gambling... the only time you gamble at poker is when you bluff! The rest of the time it should be a good knowledge of the various odds, as well as knowing your opponent. (ok that's a bit of a stretch but I was referring to casino gambling).

Due to rake, the actual % of long-term winners in poker is a lot lower than most realise - extensive statistical data show less than 5-7% of longterm players win at poker (5% rake is pretty hard to overcome).

Whilst poker may, for some, be a game of skill - the simple fact is that, despite the industry's attempts to label it as such - it's just like most house advantage games for the collective playing group.

Whilst what you say may be accurate for generic poker games in the past or Micro-Stakes limits now, the current nature of online SSNL and MSNL is such that you have to be somewhat brilliant to show +EV.

The HUGE numbers of players who have established ridiculously high levels of skill combined with a rapidly shrinking player field mean that if you can show + results over a decent sample (300k hands or more) at 100nl or higher, you're something of a genius, in every possible way.

 

[spearmaster]

Due to rake, the actual % of long-term winners in poker is a lot lower than most realise - extensive statistical data show less than 5-7% of longterm players win at poker (5% rake is pretty hard to overcome).

Whilst poker may, for some, be a game of skill - the simple fact is that, despite the industry's attempts to label it as such - it's just like most house advantage games for the collective playing group.

Whilst what you say may be accurate for generic poker games in the past or Micro-Stakes limits now, the current nature of online SSNL and MSNL is such that you have to be somewhat brilliant to show +EV.

The HUGE numbers of players who have established ridiculously high levels of skill combined with a rapidly shrinking player field mean that if you can show + results over a decent sample (300k hands or more) at 100nl or higher, you're something of a genius, in every possible way.

Well, as I am nowhere near playing at 100nl... I'll defer to you on that I still have to adapt my limit poker skills to playing NL.

Anyhow, rake isn't a house advantage - it is collected as a percentage of bets in the pot, up to a certain maximum, regardless of whether you win or lose - and in a land-based poker room, it is tantamount to a service charge.

Ultimately, it is impossible to predict EV at poker because it is dependent on a wide range of factors including your skill. Thus, EV doesn't really exist in poker. Certainly, your "EV" would be better than my "EV", if you see what I mean.

 

[JHV]

Ultimately, it is impossible to predict EV at poker because it is dependent on a wide range of factors including your skill. Thus, EV doesn't really exist in poker. Certainly, your "EV" would be better than my "EV", if you see what I mean.

Kinda correct, yes. EV can be accurately estimated somewhat easily in terms of whether it exists in a + or - form.

But to accurately estimate the level of +/- (or even inaccurately estimate it) is nigh on impossible because, even with HUGE sample sizes, the results are no longer valid due to the changing nature of the literally hundreds of variables.

To clarify, over my first 50,000 hands of 1000nl, I ran at 10bb/100 (this is ridiculous winrate, fyi). Over my 2nd 50,000 hands, despite being 10x the player I was in my first 50k, I ran at 0bb/100. Over the next 500,000 hands, my overall winrate came down to something like 3ptbb/100 (an extremely good winrate for that sample).

However, by the time you play half a million hands, so many variables have changed, your (even recent) historical results are value-less. Your opponents may collectively get a GREAT deal more talented, your style of play might have been broken down and effectively negated on endless online poker forums, your psychological mindset has completely changed (whether you wish it to or not), etc, etc, etc.

The only people who are able to get accurate winrates for online poker are botrunners who might have hundreds of little bots playing millions of SSNL or micro-stakes hands a week. Therefore, they're able to build up huge (and therefore statistically relevant) sample sizes in an extremely short period of time against the same opponents - and negating all emotional/psychological variables.

 

[Jasminebed]

I just want to make a quick comment on defining problem gambling as a percentage of income. The lady I spoke with briefly went over some of the kinds of questions used to determine "problem" gambling, and they had much more to do with the kind of impact gambling was having in your life...problems at work, in relationships, worrying about being able to gamble, stressed out when you can't gamble, stuff like that.

My gal pal Shelly who accompanies on some of my land-based trips, thinks I'm silly to spend so much every month gambling, when instead I could spend a week a couple of times a year soused on a Cuban beach.

My ex-husband spend a much larger part of his disposable income on comics than I did on bingo.

I know quite a few woman who spend my gambling budget on hair and nails instead.

Money is not really how you define gambling addiction.

Scooter, I am recovering from major surgery and I don't have a scanner, but I'll call again and try to get an address so you may get in touch with them directly. They seemed most helpful and cooperative, and I told them why I was asking for this information.

 

[JHV]

I just want to make a quick comment on defining problem gambling as a percentage of income. The lady I spoke with briefly went over some of the kinds of questions used to determine "problem" gambling, and they had much more to do with the kind of impact gambling was having in your life...problems at work, in relationships, worrying about being able to gamble, stressed out when you can't gamble, stuff like that.

My gal pal Shelly who accompanies on some of my land-based trips, thinks I'm silly to spend so much every month gambling, when instead I could spend a week a couple of times a year soused on a Cuban beach.

My ex-husband spend a much larger part of his disposable income on comics than I did on bingo.

I know quite a few woman who spend my gambling budget on hair and nails instead.

Money is not really how you define gambling addiction.

Scooter, I am recovering from major surgery and I don't have a scanner, but I'll call again and try to get an address so you may get in touch with them directly. They seemed most helpful and cooperative, and I told them why I was asking for this information.

Oh please DON'T put yourself out!! Seriously! I was just planning on tearing their 'arguments' apart lol

Hope you get better soon. I've had surgery twice and got unlimited (I think?) morphine twice. Both times, I knew God loved me. Or that doctors freak out when you scream for "MORE MORPHINE STAT!!!!" - it's probably 50/50. My point is, I hope you have morphine.

Whilst I do not disagree with anything you say about expenditure, I (respectfully) believe you have completely missed the obvious point I was making - specifically, that addicts and gamblers are not historically known for being objective about their behaviour. This makes them an unreliable source when you're looking into problem gambling.

1. "Do you have a problem?"

"No."

2. "Do you have a problem?"

"No."

(multiply by 20,000 times....)

"Our study has shown that 0.00% of adults have a gambling problem. This result has a 98% confidence interval with +/- 0.02 margin for error."

I envy, seriously seriously envy, anyone that cannot see this hilariously common-sense point. As it means you have never struggled with addiction or vice or behavioral problems of any kind. You lucky saints...

 

[dominique]

Well, as far as I know all of the gambling help programs see it the way Jasmine describes.

Most of these programs have a super success rate, so they can't be all wrong.

Like with any addict, the addict him/herself needs to want to change and usually has to hit rock bottom. That is a given, and while these programs are talking about reforming addicts, you are talking about people who are addicted and not ready to attempt to stop.

There is a world of difference, and this applies to all addicts, gamblers, alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, joggers with ruined cartilage, extreme sports/adrenalin addicts, sugar addicts, etc etc there are a lot of things people get addicted to. Every one of these will not be receptive to giving up the addictive behavior until it hurts real bad.

 

[slotheadlizard]

Survey

Oh please DON'T put yourself out!! Seriously! I was just planning on tearing their 'arguments' apart lol

Hope you get better soon. I've had surgery twice and got unlimited (I think?) morphine twice. Both times, I knew God loved me. Or that doctors freak out when you scream for "MORE MORPHINE STAT!!!!" - it's probably 50/50. My point is, I hope you have morphine.

Whilst I do not disagree with anything you say about expenditure, I (respectfully) believe you have completely missed the obvious point I was making - specifically, that addicts and gamblers are not historically known for being objective about their behaviour. This makes them an unreliable source when you're looking into problem gambling.

1. "Do you have a problem?"

"No."

2. "Do you have a problem?"

"No."

(multiply by 20,000 times....)

"Our study has shown that 0.00% of adults have a gambling problem. This result has a 98% confidence interval with +/- 0.02 margin for error."

I envy, seriously seriously envy, anyone that cannot see this hilariously common-sense point. As it means you have never struggled with addiction or vice or behavioral problems of any kind. You lucky saints...

Though you may not agree with the results of some surveys, and that's your choice, I don't think this particular example of your questions are an accurate portrayal of questions.

I've been in research for 11 years, and have found that when questions are on an anonymous basis (through whatever method) people seem to be more honest in their replies.

Also, surveys that are trying to come up with accurate statistics don't have questions that are so "black and white", and may not be designed for the subject to draw their own conclusions.

1. Do you have a gambling problem?

To conclude this, the question may be, How many times per week do you gamble? Have you ever skipped work to gamble? Have you ever stolen funds to gamble? etc, etc, etc.

 

[JHV]

Have you ever skipped work to gamble? Have you ever stolen funds to gamble? etc, etc, etc.

Someone responding to such a survey would never see through such craftily disguised subterfuge.

Addicts of any kind LOVE to admit they have a problem. They are well-known for being objective and rational about their activities and have rarely been found to be in any form of denial whatsoever.

 

[dominique]

What subterfuge?

And if addicts love to admit they have a problem, why do they hide booze bottles all over the house and why is it supposed to be such a big deal at alcoholics anonymous to get up and say: I am an alcoholic"?

And how come you know everything better than slotheadlizard who has been in research for 11 years or Jasmine who went through the trouble of actually talking to people in the field?

I was looking forward to a constructive thread about problem gambling. It is doubtlessly an issue, and an important one to know the FACTS about.

 

[JHV]

What subterfuge?

And if addicts love to admit they have a problem, why do they hide booze bottles all over the house and why is it supposed to be such a big deal at alcoholics anonymous to get up and say: I am an alcoholic"?

Apologies for confusion. I was lazy and reverted to the lowest form of wit.

But you make the same point as I was making with my sarcasm.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Um, no. lol.

Trust me, I was not "lucky" to make $1mil playing poker. I was actually extremely unlucky not to make $3mil during that time and can prove that with graphs and statistical evidence. Not that I care too much, as evidence by my *almost* successful demolition of that mil in the last few months on house edge.

Many wagers are neutral or +EV. Some are HUGELY +EV. Like when my friends play me for $1000 Monopoly games on pogo.com

You certainly know your stuff JHV, IMO at least

Spearmaster was making the point that a 50/50 or +EV bet is not gambling but I would not completely agree with that. The relationship between +EV, bankroll and variance is a complex one. Sometimes like with a big VP jackpot it can be extremely hard to convert a +EV situation into cash. Also in poker where the +EV is hard to measure it can be very hard to strike a balance. Even if you are strongly +EV variance can do weird things to you and upset your balance and order.

Talking of which - does that demolition remark mean what I think it means? I hope it doesn't or at least you have come to terms with it. You sound like you have a lot of resiliance in general anyway .

 

[JHV]

You certainly know your stuff JHV, IMO at least

Spearmaster was making the point that a 50/50 or +EV bet is not gambling but I would not completely agree with that. The relationship between +EV, bankroll and variance is a complex one. Sometimes like with a big VP jackpot it can be extremely hard to convert a +EV situation into cash. Also in poker where the +EV is hard to measure it can be very hard to strike a balance. Even if you are strongly +EV variance can do weird things to you and upset your balance and order.

Talking of which - does that demolition remark mean what I think it means? I hope it doesn't or at least you have come to terms with it. You sound like you have a lot of resiliance in general anyway .

I argue a wager where you have a 99.99% chance of winning and 00.01% chance of losing is still a gamble - just a VERY good gamble.

Life is a gamble. Most people don't realise every day, they probably do (rough guess) 20-50 things that have element of serious risk - low statistical probability, but possibly devastating impact when "unlucky". I kind of see the world through these geeky eyes I guess, everything I'm doing I'm weighing up the odds or betting line or probabilities or whatever (as best as I am able to judge anyway - sometimes I'd be hilariously incorrect on my guesses, but apart from some clear wagers where number of variables are low and exact values known, etc, every wager is a 'guess' - professional gamblers will win more if their 'guesses' are more correct, more often.

I have some talents in some things but I suck at 'life' in many ways. This is partly because I kinda have a flippant attitude towards it. I used to be the biggest "life-nit" (risk averse, price conscious, bankroll aware, etc) in the world as I kid, I think. This hampered my ability in poker for many years - you need to become adjusted to the simple fact that swings and the wild variance ride will be crazy and insane, and you have to psychologically prepare yourself for that and trust your "guesses" 100% - if you blink, or at least if you blink often, someone like me will run roughshod over you. In a lot of ways, the current nature of online MSNL now is a game of Blind Man's Bluff - he who blinks first loses. Or he who cracks first mentally over inability to handle the swings.

I only started doing very well at MSNL mid-last year when I finally got my head around the fact that I'd be winning or losing 50k a day regardless of how well (or poorly) I played. I was able to get my head around this and I didn't blink for a very long time

A cheeky side-effect of being a successful (and therefore psychologically numb to the insane swings) MSNL multi-tabler, is that you become numb to the value of money, in many ways. I would play one of the most brilliant sessions of my life and drop 60k. Or I would play horribly (and know it) and win 30k. Needing to be able to judge your own guess at the expectation of a single play (example: "check-pushing this river for $7000 with air on a bluff will deliver me 105-110% return on average" - CHECK - OPPONENT BET - ALL IN - "oops, wrong that time, next hand"...), fail and instantly move on without any psychological impact - is simply vital. Without this numbness, I don't think you'd have a chance of succeeding in the current nature of insanely aggressive and complex MSNL online games.

Now, the problem with becoming completely and utterly numb to money, is that you don't care if you lose it. You're numb. My numbness was accentuated by another existential crisis kind of thing, where I hit some meaningless financial goals I'd had since I was like 14, and the second I hit those goals, I knew I'd effectively been wasting my life burning midnight oil studying and working insanely hard to achieve what amounted to a fallacy. And I hated myself for it, for conveniently deluding myself into believing those goals were somehow worth the insane effort and sacrifices I had made for so many years.

So I was professionally numb from the insane swings of a year or two at MSNL. And I was unprofessionally numb from the realisation that I'd been retarded my whole life about the money issue, and it's inherent value - which I immediately re-valued / re-priced at 10c on the $ or something

That was dumb, in hindsight - although I really did feel money was close to worthless and kinda still do, in some ways. Cause when I ended some business projects in January 09 which used to take up a lot of my time, I found myself with an insane amount of free time on my hands and no plans or motivation to do much to occupy myself - house edge got involved, 100 other mitigating issues contributed, and before I really thought "oh, maybe there is something or someone that deserves this money a LOT more than these dirty online casinos who keep screwing me unfairly"....most of it was gone.

I am genuinely ok with it. It was dumb, but I still don't really value money so the pain that a lot of people would feel at losing 700-750k over a few months (with a hell of a lot of that on -EV sillyness) simply isn't there for me. I'm more 'disappointed' in myself, because now that I think about it, hell I'd rather walk along a random street and hand 10k blocks to strangers than allow those online casinos (almost all of which screwed me, in some way - with the stark exception of 32Red, who were fantastic). But I don't lose sleep over it or anything, it's just a "bleh, that was misappropriation of funds" type feeling.

I still have a relatively decent amount. And I have some business interests with + cash flow. And I have literally dozens of ideas in my head which I could easily convert to cash flow if I cared to make the effort - which I very strongly do not right now...I've been possessed by a lazy version of myself. It's 'intriguing'. Obviously my new-found laziness is directly linked to my (late) realisation that the mad race to simply acquire as much $ as you could, at the expense of leisure time, relationships, etc...was really stupid and I feel a fool to have committed so many years of my life to that mad race.

I dunno about whether I have 'resilience' (anymore). I certainly did when I was younger and accomplished some amazing things under intense handicaps very much against the odds - but now, I suspect I'm incapable of much really, except to be lazy, drink if I feel like it, read if I feel like it, ramble on forums if I feel like it, sleep if I feel like it...and not much else

No prizes for guessing I'm currently in the "ramble on forums if I feel like it" phase. I believe this will shortly morph into "eat if I feel like it" phase. I have no idea why I would think *anyone* would find that interesting. Should backspace but meh.....

 

[WagerWitch]

"My numbness was accentuated by another existential crisis kind of thing, where I hit some meaningless financial goals I'd had since I was like 14, and the second I hit those goals, I knew I'd effectively been wasting my life burning midnight oil studying and working insanely hard to achieve what amounted to a fallacy. And I hated myself for it, for conveniently deluding myself into believing those goals were somehow worth the insane effort and sacrifices I had made for so many years."

This is not an uncommon feeling for many people - not just gamblers.

Truly something you might want to do - is make NEW goals.

Part of the process is to CONSTANTLY make goals and give yourself something ELSE to strive for.

And to complete.

It isn't the lack of justification or a "good" feeling to pass those goals... It is in the game of finishing those goals like you set out to do so.

It's a competition of sorts with yourself.

Once you complete a goal - it's kind of "blah" feeling "ishy".

It's in the game... In the chase that you feel most alive.

So make some NEW goals.

Maybe Philanthropy.

Maybe you could do something with your money - besides give it back to the critters that give it to you.

Truth is - most people don't win.

Truth is - no matter how good at gambling you are - you're going to lose sometime.

And loss is horrible.

So - make new goals.

Make something worthwhile.

Yeah - get off your arse and do it.

I mean - hell - if I had the kind of money you were talking about - I'd sit comfortably on my arse and write a book - and live modestly... For the rest of my life.

I don't need Glamor.

I don't need extravagance...

I need a nice house, a comfy grouping of furniture - some toys - a little bit of yearly spending money - and a passport to do a little travelling... (And I don't have to go first class either...)

A garden.

Enough money for food and basic bills.

And Voila... An enjoyable - enviable life.

So - what makes YOU different - now that you've GOT the money?

Hmmm?

Now you have to spend it all back - just to prove that you're a loser? And an unlucky one at that?

You have to PROVE to yourself that you are self destructing?

Fine...

But could you self destruct in my direction?

I mean I've got a deck of cards -and cheap chips - I suck at poker - but you could pay the house advantage... LOL!

Or you could just wire me the money - so I can pay my attorneys to protect my arse a little better in the suit I have against the State and the City....

LMAO!

Seriously dude - you're talking to a bunch of us who are low key gamblers - some of us have addictions... But you're in the OH MY GAWD range...

The range that we all believe if we ever hit - we'd stop gambling.

Yanno?

Because if I had millions in my hands - I'd seriously never gamble again in my life - I gamble to POSSIBLY win that much - so I won't ever have to worry about life...

Not to live the glamorous life or lose it all back.

Maybe that is an addiction point.

But to me - it sounds more like self destruction.

And a serious case of it.

Again - I reiterate - YOU SHOULD STOP GAMBLING - sit down at your keyboard and write a book.

You've got some information in your head that you should pass on to others.

You've got stories that would make people sit up and pay attention.

Not for the money - but to get that info out there.

 

[JHV]

This is not an uncommon feeling for many people - not just gamblers.

Somewhat astonishingly (to me), I have discovered over the last 6 months how common this is - I was living in my own little workaholic fantasy land for 14 years.

The happiest people I know are those who don't have regrets. Unfortunately, I regret working so hard for over a decade, and there's no real gameplay solution for that.

But it's all good - once I work out what, if anything, I want to do - I'll snap out of my funk and I'll get it done. Just a matter of finding something I'm motivated.

Discussed philanthropy in another thread. Tried it a number of times, came away from every experience feeling very disillusioned about the concept of charity - I muck around with Kiva.org (micro lending at -EV) which I think highly of, and I do a bit of other stuff - but the simple fact is I don't think a lot of people holding their hands out deserve help, and finding the ones that do appears to be too much hassle, and tilt as you work your way through the jokers that don't deserve assistance on your search for those that do. To cut a very long story short, I've decided I don't really like the idea of most forms of charity - and all my efforts at philanthropy over the years have left me with a bitter aftertaste (with the exception of Kiva).

I apologise and completely understand how sick and twisted such a story must sound to a normal, hard-working person grinding away raising a family, juggling a million responsibilities, etc. I apologise how, if I am truthful about what I've done and how I feel about it, it might create (fair and just) feelings of nausea in some readers. But MSNL online pros live in a surreal world - it's not comparable to reality. As mentioned above, you actually have to disassociate yourself from reality to be successful - and then it's a catch-22 situation. It's all a bit sick, and I never really understood these kinds of complications or how talented players lost huge bankrolls until I experienced the insanity for myself. I had always assumed otherwise talented players who burned huge rolls (generically common-place in our world) had crazy mental issues, where their egos blew into insane realms and they went mad / insane chasing losses in furious, maddening tilt. I never, for one second, considered myself to ever be at risk - as I have prided myself on my discipline and mental control / stability for so long. No one ever explained to me about the "numbness" factor - that, so often, huge bankrolls amassed over long periods of time are dumped purely cause the player doesn't care all that much, feels nothing or very little. It's such a cute, but sick, irony.

I'm barely gambling at all now. I'm still +EV in probably every online MSNL game up to 1000nl and most 2000nl games - I'm probably -EV now in almost, if not every, 5000nl game. And the player pool is rapidly shrinking for all levels, whilst average skill level of opponents is rising rapidly. So even though there are many games where I still have net +expectation vs the field, the margin of edge I have is much smaller now, and decreasing rapidly - causing a corresponding loss in motivation, not that I had much this year to begin with.

I'm still dabbling in some games where I have *decent* expectation, but I'm still losing on a world-class downswing that would send a player who strongly cared about his results completely insane - I am already kind of insane, so I am fine

I just don't really have much drive anymore, so I'm not grinding out 50-80k hand months at MSNL like I used to - I might not play all that seriously for days, or weeks at a time - just trying to figure out what, if anything, I want to do at the moment...and not putting any serious time pressures on myself to reach that decision / conclusion.

It will come to me at some point, I'm just twiddling my thumbs and waiting....I can't set any kind of goals until I decide what exactly I want. At the moment, I want a Subway Teriyaki Chicken footlong, so gonna make that happen - taking it one footlong at a time.

 

[slotheadlizard]

JHV

Someone responding to such a survey would never see through such craftily disguised subterfuge.

Addicts of any kind LOVE to admit they have a problem. They are well-known for being objective and rational about their activities and have rarely been found to be in any form of denial whatsoever.

All CM forum members never give smart ass replies, and are always objective. They are open to suggestions and constructive criticism. They are rarely found to be wrong in any fashion, and keep their post short and to the point.

 

[4 of a kind]

Glad to see you back again JHV. Seems your doing a great job venting here on this forum.
Wish you great success and recovery.