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Crazy Vegas: Bonus Abuser?

G

guy

Dormant account
CM Veteran (10yr+)
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
I as per the recommended list of CM I signed up and played the crazy vegas sign up 100% promotion. Being impressed with there Customer Support and quick payouts I decided to make another larger deposit there and play some JOB in search of my first royal flush. I recieved their 15% neteller deposit bonus and started to play 2.50$ hands of JOB eventually reaching the wagering requirements, which are rather lofty and cashed out a 100$ profit. No royal though :( .

Two days later I recieve this odd email:

Dear XXXXX,
Unfortunately we are no longer able to give you further purchase bonuses (15%)
at Vegas Partner Lounge Casinos. This special purchase bonus is restricted to
loyal members of the casinos that have proven to play in excess of the minimum
wagering requirements and play a variety of games. We have also noticed that you
currently have a cash in for the amount of $1100.00 at Crazy Vegas Casino, this
cash in will not be affected by these playing conditions and will be processed
normally.
Our Cash in Manager will be in touch with you shortly.
We simply must spend our bonus funds rewarding loyal players, although should
your playing habits change for a significant period of time in the future it
would be our privilege to offer you a special bonus again at that time.
In the meantime, you are most welcome to continue playing with us.
Vegas Partner Lounge Casinos are Crazy Vegas, Sun Vegas, Cinema, Arthurian and
777 Dragon Casinos.
We strive to give you the best online gambling experience of your life, offering
you Fiery promotions all the time and backing our services up with a 24hour toll
free helpdesk service.

Contact us 24-hours a day, 7 days a week if you have any other queries or
suggestions.

Regards,
Eddie
The Support Team
Vegas Partner Lounge"

The thing that gets me here is why do they have requirements to begin with? Why dont they say if you dont either wager far beyond the WR's or at least lose most of your money you will be labelled a bonus abuser. This was only my second deposit at Crazy Vegas and yes I admit I did not wager far beyond the WR, probably about 75-100$ over but how does this define me as a bonus abuser? This vague definition of bonus abuser is a dangerous thing, I ask the managers at Crazy Vegas to come and please define exactly what a bonus abuser is. "This special purchase bonus is restricted to
loyal members of the casinos that have proven to play in excess of the minimum
wagering requirements and play a variety of games." The problem is I usually play either BJ (which is not allowed with bonus credits) or JOB. I guess they only want slot players at Crazy Vegas, or gamblers who are prone to loss of control. I myself do it recreationally and would have made many more deposits at crazy vegas, but I guess since I didnt lose all my money I am unwanted there.
 
Looking over their email, they never mention bonus abuse.
<hr size=0>quote:<p>This special purchase bonus is restricted to
loyal members of the casinos that have proven to play in excess of the minimum
wagering requirements and play a variety of games. <hr size=0>​
Perhaps they are being leery with any "possible" abuse. Maybe they can make a comment on this. I don't beleive it has anything to do with not "losing" there.
 
Well, considering they are honoring the cash in, I believe it's well within their rights to further restrict bonuses at their own discretion. There is no precedent I know of which forces a casino to offer bonuses.
 
The email the sent me had the subject BONUS ABUSE. Being that it was only my second deposit and that I fullfilled all their requirements I find it odd that they labelled me this.
 
The casino's has the right to offer bonuses or not, but, if one does, then damn it, they should be professional enough to pay the cash in if a player wins and has met their wagering requirements. Wager 20X your deposit and bonus, then bitch because one does and cashes out?

Bad practice!! Bad business! Infantile actions!!
 
Yes jpm, I understood them to have paid. But according to guy, they also referred to him as a Bonus Abuser, even after making a deposit with them and meeting their requirements to make a withdrawal?

In my opinion, the online casino industry (90% of) is a Player Abuser!!

(DELETE) Had more, but what's the use?
 
The reality of this type of situation, which is becoming more & more common, is that the casinos really do want to give out the bonuses to players that play keno, slots, scratch cards, and any other game that has a high house edge.

When a disciplined blackjack player deposits, and plays with the intent of "actually winning" :eek: the casino then views you as
"non deserving" of any bonus. This really IS the mindset of many casinos today.

If a slot or keno player wins, they have no problem with that. A "sharp" blackjack player "is" viewed as an unwanted commodity by most casinos, and they surely don't want to give you any "bonuses" to entice you to continue to play there.
 
If you got paid then this is really a none issue, the casino will suffer enough if they wish to ban promotions from people. Their is enough competition out there that the casino will learn soon enough that the amount of players hitting their casino will dwindle because so many other casinos offer deposit bonuses.
 
This is an 'Issue' indeed!!

Whether they paid or not, the casino set the rules, then it was met, and now they more or less have called guy a bonus abuser by the subject line in the email this casino sent him, having "Bonus Abuse" in it.

They are covering up their intent by NOT putting into plain text every detail they want a player to do before requesting a cash-in or accept a bonus. They know the majority of people won't accept it nor play there if they did so, they are being deceptive in their behaviour, so yes, this is an issue!!
 
Maybe they should list bonuses "for our VIP players". They could then define VIP player anyway they wish.
Eaxample:
People who wager over $5000 per month.
Play a variety of games.
Etc.
 
You,re suppose to lose stupid!! If you come and win your first time there, then they,re not happy! Crazy Vegas is not all that it,s cracked up to be as far as top sites voting on Gambling.com, and other places that say the customer service is so good. I had my dealings with them, and I can tell you that they are by far the worst customer support casino that I,ve ever dealt with. They told me that I bounced a check with them through Firepay...and when I told them over and over that there must be some kind of mistake, they said I was lying and wrote that they are going to take more drastic measures to get their money. (whatever that meant) It came down to me contacting Firepay and begging them to please send these assholes proof that I have paid them and that my check was good. Firepay read their letters to me and basically told them that they had gotten paid...and to leave me alone. And after all this...they still acted like it was my fault, and gave a half-hearted apology. I,ll never play with them again!
 
Dont jump to blame firepay mistakes on a casino group. I went down that same road, firepay just kept sending me emails saying my account was still in good standing and that was about all the involvement they wanted, needless to say even though my firepay account is open i dont use it. The only thing i dont like about these groups is how they are quick to assume it was you that scammed and not a firepay error.
 
This is not a case of jumping to conclusions my friend. Firepay was in fact the proof I needed to get these guys off my back...and they came through for me with proof of payment in writing to that casino. Even though I had documentation of my own..the casino group didn,t accept it. Only when Firepay stuck their copies under their noses did they believe!
 
Back to the main subject though, say you went into a land based casino and played BJ and started winning big. They have every right to tell you that you're no longer welcome in their casino any longer, and to take your chips & leave. This is done all the time to card counters and other extra-lucky players.

This is essentially what Gaming Club did, but to a lesser extent. They didn't say you're no longer welcome, they just said you are no longer welcome to our regular bonuses unless you show that you are going to play when you don't have a bonus. They even said at that time they would give him a "special bonus".

This is really not as big a deal as some are making it out to be. Perhaps the wording they used in the subject of their message could have been better, but that's about it. How about if they said "Advantage Player" instead of "Bonus Abuser", would that make it all better?
 
The thing is the bonus comes automatically after you deposit, actually about 2 hours after deposit. How can they label someone a bonus abuser if they fulfill and exceed the requirements of the bonus. What constitutes non bonus abuse. I guess to Crazy Vegas only players with no self control that lose tons of money are welcome at their casino. The ridicules part is I won such a petty amount. Being that I would have made a number of deposits following this last one which they labelled me a bonus abuser is so dumb on the casinos part that it is beyond comprehension.

And BTW JPM, Vegas casinos, having more sense then Crazy Vegas treat their winners very well knowing that it will keep them coming back and eventually the house will win. Perhaps Crazy Vegas has somethings to learn when it comes to business. Giving derogatory and offensive labels with very little information to players who are making large deposits to their casino is probably the stupidest business move I could think of.
 
They do treat winners of things such as Slots, VP, or progressive game jackpots well in vegas, but try going in and winning big & consistently on BJ and you'll be treated very differently. They will ASSUME you are counting cards and escort you out. Some will do this with craps players as well, accusing you of 'setting the dice'.

They like big winners on games with big house edge like slots because so many saps will come in and pour money into them and the house will make money. They don't like it when you have the edge over them in a skill game like BJ.
 
I was playing VP for the record. And a highroller is a highroller. In the terms of online casinos, I was willing to deposit 10000k a month into this casino which I feel is highroller status for online. Being treated this way, labelled a bonus abuser after 2 deposits is absurd and simply bad business. Oh well Ill simply take my money eleswhere where I am treated with a level of respect which a large deposit player deserves.
 
I made a 2500$ deposit only because that was the neteller limit. Would have been 10k but it wouldnt let me. Beleive it or not it is true and sorry for crazy vegas but the cash will be going eleswhere.
 
This is a good group. They pay very fast, amount notwithstanding. If they don't like your business they'll deny you bonuses. They certainly won't refuse to pay previously awarded bonuses if they decide subsequently they don't want your action.

I don't see much of a problem here.
 
Although yes they are a good group and yes they do pay even though they neglect to allow people to continue using their bonuses, the problem is, why have wagering requirements if someone fullfills them and then is called a bonus abuser. It makes no sense whatsoever. If the player had failed to meet the WR then I could see their justification. If they wish their bonus to only be used with slots and require the player to play a variety of games why does it not state this in the T and C's? They will eventually learn that the majority of players tend to only play 1 or 2 games, and that calling people bonus abusers when their has clearly been no bonus abuse that this does not win favour with customers and soon enough they will be losing most of their customers.
 
They aren't paying me squat, in fact they probably don't even know I exist unless I give them my account number. I haven't played there for many months at least, they were just trying to lure me back with a $25 match bonus which I took full advantage of and hit some good power poker hands using it, playing $1.25/hand.

They deny people continuing bonuses when they do the classic bonus abuse behavior. Claim the bonus then play the minimum required to meet the w/r and cashout. This is so obvious to them when they check your wagering before processing the cashin. Simple way around that is play more than the minimum on games, play well beyond the w/r (like an additional 1x or 2x the deposit) and then cashout.

OR, don't accept such measily little bonuses in the first place and play with just your own money until they offer you a real bonus (which they will if you play regularly) then take it and follow the guidelines stated above. A 10% bonus is less than worthless because it will cause you to play more to meet the w/r associated with it. You'll either lose money doing so or get labelled as a bonus abuser because you cash out immediately after reaching the 10x requirements that most of these foolish bonuses require. Too much risk for too little reward.

I tell any casino I play at to NOT give me a neteller bonus if it involves having to play my bonus any number of times before I can cash out. If its just playing the bonus 2x or 5x, that's fine, but if it involves my deposit too, then forget it.
 
I agree there's nothing abusive about following the T & C to the letter, and the casino is wrong to suggest that there is. This is classic Cake And Eat It syndrome: casino wants to be seen to be offering generous promotions to allcomers for the purpose of encouraginging business, but will deny future offers to players whose play does not adhere to unwritten rules - presumably that the player loses at least enough of their deposit to cover casino money transfer charges - rules which they will not disclose because they would obviously DISCOURAGE business.

it's a pity about this, because in every other department this is one of the best groups out there.
 
Hi Everyone,

Thank you for your postings on Crazy Vegas Casino and for your generous comments.

We pride ourselves as a top notch organization, and we make every effort to clear up any misunderstanding that may arise from players.

In response to the original posting by Guy, we would like to make it clear to everyone on how we base a decision not to offer bonuses. But first we must apologize for having used the term Bonus Abuse, we have also amended the subject line.

We would like to propose the following scenario:
Suppose a player deposits $100 via Neteller and receives $100 as the 100% match bonus, then the players wagering requirement would be ($100 + $100) x 10 = $2000. After wagering $2080, the player makes a cashin, as all requirements are met, the cashin is processed in the shortest time possible.

The player then makes another deposit for $1000 via Neteller and receives $150 as the 15% purchase bonus, then the wagering requirement would be ($1000 + $150) x 10 = $11500. The player wagers $11520 and makes a cashin. Again, all requirements are met and the cashin is processed.

In the example above the player wagers almost exactly the minimum wagering requirement, plays one particular game and has a small bet size. In these particular instances, generally the player is only prepared to wager the bonus money and not his own. These particular players are welcome to play at our casinos at anytime, however, we simply must spend our bonus funds rewarding loyal players, although should their playing habits change for a significant period of time in the future it would be our privilege to offer them a special bonus again at that time.

We do not rush into making such decisions and we always give the player the benefit of the doubt. Once we make a decision, we are always willing to monitor the players style of play and start awarding bonuses thereafter. In this particular case, we are prepared to give bonuses to Guy and shall monitor his play going forward. However, if his style of play does not change as indicated in the above two examples, we will be forced to remove bonuses.

Should Guy feel comfortable with us, feel free to contact us with this matter.

On the subject of Firepay disputes posted by Tim5ny, please understand that unless we receive direct confirmation from Firepay, we cannot assume that a dispute is resolved. Unfortunately we received late response from Firepay, we duly apologized to the player and have also offered a compensation for the amount of the dispute, to show our genuine heart-felt apologies for the delay in dealing with the issue. We have informed all our sister casinos that this player is in good standing with us.

Contact us 24-hours a day, 7 days a week if you have any other queries or suggestions.

We strive to give you the best online gambling experience of your life, offering you fantastic promotions all the time and backing our services up with a 24hour toll free helpdesk &gt;,Outdated URL (Invalid)&lt;, service.

Regards,
Trevor Penn
Crazy Pitboss
Crazy Vegas Casino
Vegas Partner Lounge
 
Trevor Penn:
Lets use a different analogy. I get arrested and am given 5 years probation. During my probation time, I am a law abiding citizen. On the day that the 5 years are completed, should I offer to do another year as a sign of good faith? LMAO...at your post.
 
Hi Linda7,

And everyone else.

What we are dealing with here are casinos who are competing with one another, and they have to provide players with some sort of bonus play in order to remain competitive. It's up to them on how to dish them out fairly, and how to ensure that these bonuses won't be a death blow to the company.

I think Eggroll's response was right on target. It's a delicate situation trying to protect ones business from bonus hounds, and to ensure that real players are kept satisfied.

The amount of player fraud that I see day to day would make your head spin. In fact, I am spending just as much time investigation player fraud as I am casino fraud. There are syndicates, or groups of players who will hammer a casino coercively, some of whom are members of this board and WOLs (they know who they are, I haven't busted them out in public...yet.) It because of these assholes that casinos have to protect themselves the way they do.

I for one are completely against using bonuses. I think it's stupid, and moronic to let a casino dictate how much to play and what games. It's my money and I want to play it like I feel. But unfortunately, most players don't see it like this. They want the friggin' bonus.

Nevertheless, I applaud these guys for taking your comments to heart, and being as receptive as they are. I wouldn't expect less from these guys. They are top notch.
 
I played at crazy vegas, the sign up bonus and the neteller deposit bonus. I cashed out a decent amount on the sign up bonus. On the neteller bonus I deposited 2000$ and recivesd a 300$ bonus, 2300$ total, had the autoplayer playing 2.50$ hands of JOB and when fininshed wagering my balance was at a pathetic 1350$, a net loss of 950$ with a measley 2.50$ bet. WOW. So I decided to cashout barely wagering over the required amount, Im sure you can understand why, then got the bonus abuser email right after. As far as Im concerned CV is a joke, calling me a bonus abuser after losing over 900$, total BS. These results are real, is it possible to lose so much betting 2.50$ playing perfect BS at JOB.
 
As Mr. Trevor Penn has written in his post, Crazy Vegas and its people have cooresponded with me, and all matters concerning the payment dispute have been settled. I thank you for posting Trevor... and I respect your professionalism in this matter. Tim
 
I have to agree with Bryan and Eggroll at this point. The casinos are in the business to MAKE MONEY, not hand out bonuses for us to make money. You've got to keep that in mind. They are handing out free money when they give you a bonus (albeit with strings attached), so if they want to call you a bonus abuser, then that's their right. Its their money after all!

Linda, your analogy doesn't apply since in that scenario you committed a crime in the first place, you didn't get handed free money which was given as an incentive to come in the doors and risk (and hopefully lose in the casino's mind) your money. It wasn't a challenge to see if you can keep all of your money and take some of theirs.

This is how most of us 'advantage players' view it though, myself included. And we are the types that the casinos don't want around. I'll take advantage of any decent bonus offered and accept the challenge. But if the casino bans me from further promotions after that, I won't whine about it, that's part of the game. I'll just move on to a different one until they ban me, or play at my favorite few without bonuses.

I still think anyone who takes a 10% or 15% bonus with 10x deposit + bonus w/r is a fool. And as the saying goes, a fool and his money...
 
JPM: The casinos make PLENTY of money, especially off players like myself. Do you know how many times I cashed out this year...three.
I just leave my money in the casinos so I can keep playing and eventually I lose it back. I can afford it, so this is what I do. However, as long as players follow the rules, I do not think they should be penalized. To be real honest, the players are punished enough. As I read through these threads and see the amount of people getting screwed by these, so called, honest casinos, it upsets me very much. So, if a couple of players look to earn, and yes they can lose, I see no problem with it. There are plenty of suckers, like myself, who overcome the little money that the players win. My second (and present) husband, Barry, runs a holdem game 4 times a week. He chops $150 an hour. If the game goes 20 hours, that is $3000 taken from the game. So there is really only one winner and that is the house, Barry (just like the casinos). BTW, I keep telling his players to hit and run before they get eaten by the chop...lol. You know I have much respect for you JPM, and I am just expressing my opinion.
Please dont get mad at me. I wish you many many Royals...(((hugs)))
 
My second (and present) husband, Barry, runs a holdem game 4 times a week. He chops $150 an hour.

And you want to hit him with a frying pan? :)

While an advantage player (not a bonus abuser) is certainly entitled to collect his winnings, the casino equally has the right to decide not to offer further bonuses, which are normally used to entice a player back. They could even shut down the account if they so chose - but only if they paid out according to the rules and conditions that they set for the bonus that was received.

This can't be called punishment in my book. Not honoring winnings when the T&C was met is also not punishment - it is theft.

I think Trevor's wording leaves a wee bit to be desired. Instead of "forced to remove bonuses" it SHOULD say "forced to stop offering bonuses going forward" or something similar.

Once the bonus is offered, you can't "remove" it unless the player does not meet the T&C before cashing out.

Otherwise, not only do I agree with Trevor, I also agree with Bryan - bonuses are the bane of the industry and the cause of most of the problems. And rather than automatically getting a bonus, I would much prefer having to request the bonus - Microgaming's promotion system is perfect for this because you have to go and "accept" the bonus, but it is instant.
 
Same preface: this is a good group.

Unfortunately, double standards and innaccuracies are being expressed from various quarters.

I would like any of the webmasters or players who endorse this stance to comment on Have Your Cake And Eat It syndrome: a casino wants to encourage business and be competitive by being seen to offer generous bonuses, whilst denying those bonues to players who don't wager in the required and UNDISCLOSED manner. Why advertise "ten times!!!" when ten times will result in a barring? Why not advertise the REAL requirement - "twenty times" or "thirty times" - and include the prerequisite that the player play more than one game - so that that player can then play and cashout safe in the knowledge that he will be entitled to future comps and not be seen as "abusive"? Why not? Because this would DISCOURAGE business.

This is an unacceptable double standard.

Trevor says "In the example above the player wagers almost exactly the minimum wagering requirement, plays one particular game and has a small bet size. In these particular instances, generally the player is only prepared to wager the bonus money and not his own."

Trevor, at various VPL casinos I played $400 blackjack and $100 videopoker. I won pleasantly playing $400 blackjack. Having busted a packet on $100 VP I scaled down to $20. How does this square with the "small betsize" and "not wager his own money" comment? Clearly this is nothing to do with the matter. I don't consider bets ranging from $20 to $400 "small" or otherwise representative of a "risk free" playing style.

The matter is WINNING. End of story. I would LOVE to have known, BEFORE I played, the "real" required playing style, so that I could have ensured myself a future welcome mat. Why the "real" playing style was not revealed to me, and has STILL not been revealed, is because "you are required to lose" would most likely have been an unacceptable requirement (lol), and my business would have gone elsewhere.

Bryan said "The amount of player fraud that I see day to day would make your head spin. In fact, I am spending just as much time investigation player fraud as I am casino fraud. There are syndicates, or groups of players who will hammer a casino coercively, some of whom are members of this board and WOLs (they know who they are, I haven't busted them out in public...yet.) It because of these assholes that casinos have to protect themselves the way they do."

Bryan - can you be a little more specific in the definition of "player fraud"? Are we talking mob stuff here? In that case, why don't you publish details? Fraudsters have no right to anonymity, and the players also have a right to know who is doing what in the illegal stakes on boards they frequent. I see no value in rather darkly suggesting that you haven't busted them YET. Go ahead and bust them - I'm sure they've earned it.

The word "syndicate" is also intriguing. You could define The Pig Post as a "syndicate" - A "syndicate" of slot junkies posting bonus offers and busting their deposits. How do these fraudulent syndicates differ?
 
I too am interseted in what defines a syndicate, criminal or not. I personnally have a group of my freinds who discuss online casinos and bonuses and share experiences about the good and bad of online casinos via email. Does this make me part of a syndicate? This word seems like one that is made up by casinos so they give themselves the right to give hard times to a group of players who probbably dont lose as much money as a casino would like.
 
I believe I can answer the question of the definition of the term "Syndicate" in a gambling related context.

Simply put, it means 3 or more people are "involved" in same agenda.

In the US, accepting bets is illegal everywhere except Las Vegas. When an "illegal bookmaker" is arrested, he will usually be charged with "Syndicated Gambling".

Although the term has connotations of "organized crime", it has nothing to do with that.

If a bookie has at least 2 "customers", he is involved in "syndicated gambling", as far as the law is concerned. And it IS a felony charge.
 
Then arnet we all guilty at this site of being in a syndicate as we are all trying to win a little money from these casinos? LOL
We all have the same agenda.
We should all be banned by casinos then.
 
Just another excuse we're going to have to listen to from the casinos.

A label they'll wrongly pin on people. Real damage is when the label becomes accepted as a matter of fact by folks in general. It becomes like a "spin"

Like card counting being cheating or illegal.
 

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