Hello all,
I originally posted the below message in late July when the incident took place, but almost immeditaely removed it in order to submit a PAB. Since then, maxd has been in communication with CasinoJoy but it seems they have been no more responsive to him then they were to me in the email conversation below.
I would appreciate all constructive advice and opinion. The next logical steps would be a complaint to the LGA (haha) or attempting to take them to court in Malta...any Maltese court experience would be especially appreciated. Thanks!
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A brief description of the scenario:
CasinoJoy offered me a VIP deposit match bonus. I played the bonus on the slot Blade and had a significant win. The slot Blade was on the list of allowed games displayed when the bonus is clicked on in the promotions tab of the cashier. My play also resulted in the bonus wager percentage bar increasing in the cashier. All fine? Apparently not.
I had completed the wagering last week, but had not initiated a withdrawal or logged in since then and yesterday I received the following email:
They seem to be relying on the "bonus abuse" rule with no solid ground to do so and keep quoting from the Welcome Bonus terms, not the VIP terms. The rest of this post will be a series of emails exchanged, as this best describes the situation, please provide any advice or opinion. Thanks!
From me to casino:
Response from casino:
From me to casino:
From Casino:
To casino:
From casino:
To casino:
I originally posted the below message in late July when the incident took place, but almost immeditaely removed it in order to submit a PAB. Since then, maxd has been in communication with CasinoJoy but it seems they have been no more responsive to him then they were to me in the email conversation below.
I would appreciate all constructive advice and opinion. The next logical steps would be a complaint to the LGA (haha) or attempting to take them to court in Malta...any Maltese court experience would be especially appreciated. Thanks!
-- -- -- -- --
A brief description of the scenario:
CasinoJoy offered me a VIP deposit match bonus. I played the bonus on the slot Blade and had a significant win. The slot Blade was on the list of allowed games displayed when the bonus is clicked on in the promotions tab of the cashier. My play also resulted in the bonus wager percentage bar increasing in the cashier. All fine? Apparently not.
I had completed the wagering last week, but had not initiated a withdrawal or logged in since then and yesterday I received the following email:
They seem to be relying on the "bonus abuse" rule with no solid ground to do so and keep quoting from the Welcome Bonus terms, not the VIP terms. The rest of this post will be a series of emails exchanged, as this best describes the situation, please provide any advice or opinion. Thanks!
Hello, we are contacting you from CasinoJoy Support.
We are sorry to inform you that after reviewing the game logs to validate your latest winning , our records shows that after receiving the promotion you were betting in the game Blade Marvel slot, which is a 9 line slot , and therefore excluded for this promotion. Following this , your game play, promotion and winnings have been voided.
We thank you for your understanding in this matter.
From me to casino:
Well, I am shocked to receive this email.
This email is primarily for Natalie, the VIP manager, who offered me this VIP bonus. I was going to email you to say how pleased I was with this fantastic win that I had hit playing Blade on the VIP bonus you'd given me! I hope this is a misunderstanding, as this is the biggest win I have ever had in my life!
I can now see in the VIP terms that it said the 9 line slots do not count towards the wagering, but it does not say that if I play on 9 line slots you have the right to remove all my money!! Additonally, I had no cause to suspect that there was anything wrong, because all of my play on Blade was counting towards the wagering requirement in the cashier and showed up as an allowed game in the list of games when I clicked on the bonus in the promotions page. 2 clear signals that it was OK to play Blade.
I hope this is merely a mistake and that my funds are returned to my balance promptly. As you can see, I had made no attempt to withdraw and you will also see that the cashier showed that the wagering requirement had been completed successfully.
Response from casino:
We are very sorry for your dissappointment but as written in oure terms and conditions, these actions had to be taken. Please refer to this link for the full terms and conditions;You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
In your case the 2 points that you need take note of are;
•* All 9 line slots (with the exception of Millionaires Club II) are excluded from this promotion. Dino Delight is also excluded.
and
•The Service Providers reserve the right to ban any player from its casino and remove bonus monies and/or winnings associated with the bonus monies without notice if a player displays any behaviour that the Service Providers deem in their sole discretion to be an abuse of bonus monies or a breach of these terms and conditions. Bonus abuse may include, but is not limited to, claiming multiple bonuses in a month, a player wagering the bonus money on excluded games such as ‘Craps’ and/or where bets are made with the primary intention of making substantial gains solely from the bonus money provided by any of the Service Providers (as opposed to use of the bonus monies in conjunction with funds deposited by the players themselves).
Thank you for your understanding.
From me to casino:
The terms and conditions you have quoted me are from the welcome bonus, not the VIP bonus.
Please refer this matter immediately to the VIP manager.
From Casino:
I am sorry to hear of your frustration regarding the large win you had last week. Unfortunately the game you played was excluded from the promotion as it is a 9 line slot game. We are unable to exclude certain 9 line slots individually in the bonus system as they are in game categories and so that is why the Terms & Conditions are in place. You rightly say that the welcome Ts & Cs were quoted to you but as you can see, the VIP ones are the same:
Slot Games Bonus: Wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots (with the exception on Millionaires Club III). Dino Delight is also excluded from this promotion.
CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.
Betting on excluded games is deemed an abuse of bonus money which is why the winnings have been removed leaving your initial €350 deposit. Apologies for any inconvenience caused.
To casino:
Firstly, please let me note that I did not willingly break the terms. I had not seen the term regarding 9 line slots, and the slots Blade was explicitly listed as an ALLOWED game in the cashier. Secondly, I doubt very much that you are unable to remove games from the list of allowed games in the cashier. Other casinos using the same software as you remove games from the allowed list at will.
Secondly, those terms you have quoted below are not the same as the welcome bonus terms. The VIP terms are, as you would expect, more preferable terms than the welcome bonus terms. For example, the maximum bet allowed is 30% of the bonus amount, not 10%. So it is indisputable that the terms are different, and are more flexible to the player.
I have experience in the formation of terms and conditions and the legal position they create. I will now highlight the terms in question here and this will explain why the winnings should not have been removed:
Welcome Bonus terms:
· You may ONLY wager on the games above in order to fulfill the wagering requirements. All other games are EXCLUDED.
· * All 9 line slots (with the exception of Millionaires Club II) are excluded from this promotion. Dino Delight is also excluded.
· Players residing in Australia, France, China, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Greece and Israel are not eligible for CasinoJoy promotional offers or bonuses.
· The Service Providers reserve the right to ban any player from its casino and remove bonus monies and/or winnings associated with the bonus monies without notice if a player displays any behaviour that the Service Providers deem in their sole discretion to be an abuse of bonus monies or a breach of these terms and conditions. Bonus abuse may include, but is not limited to, claiming multiple bonuses in a month, a player wagering the bonus money on excluded games such as ‘Craps’ and/or where bets are made with the primary intention of making substantial gains solely from the bonus money provided by any of the Service Providers (as opposed to use of the bonus monies in conjunction with funds deposited by the players themselves).
· CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.
VIP terms:
· Slot Games Bonus: Wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots (with the exception on Millionaires Club III). Dino Delight is also excluded from this promotion.
· Players are limited to one bonus at a time, claiming multiple bonuses at the same time will lead to bonus and winnings removal.
· CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.
As you can see, the terms are very different in the section regarding eligible games. The welcome bonus states that "all other games are EXCLUDED" and "All 9 line slots are excluded" and then goes on to say that "we reserve the right to...remove bonus monies and/or winnings...if a player wagers the bonus money on excluded games." This is very clear, and you would be within your rights to remove the winnings had I been playing for the Welcome Bonus. But I was not. I therefore did not have to conform to these terms.
The VIP terms do not state that "all other games are excluded" they also do not state that "all 9 line slots are excluded", they state that "wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots". This different wording, coupled with the fact that the term from the Welcome Bonus stating "we reserve the right to...remove bonus monies and/or winnings...if a player wagers the bonus money on excluded games" is also not present in the VIP terms, therefore gives you no right to remove the winnings. Many casinos (and I can certainly provide many examples, along with evidence if need be) say that certain games do not count towards the wagering requirement, but this is not the same as saying that they are an excluded game that will result in winnings being removed, it means exactly what it says, that the games will not count towards the wagering but the player is within his rights to play them without risk of penalty.
From casino:
The Welcome Bonus and VIP Bonus Terms & Conditions are not the same. However 9 line slot games are excluded from both which is the point I was making. The reason the welcome bonus terms explain that ‘ALL other games are excluded’ is to show it is a slots promotion so you can’t play on table games for example. Whereas this is clearly stated for VIP bonuses, as you know yours was a slots only bonus.
The fact that 9 line slots are excluded from the wagering means that you can’t play them whilst using a bonus and/or the deposit attached to the bonus. This is bonus abuse. I can’t speak for other casinos.
On being able to remove individual games from the bonus system I can only tell you that this isn’t possible.
Once again I refer you to the relevant term in the VIP Terms & Conditions:
· CasinoJoy reserves the right to ban players from the casino and remove bonus money and winnings without notice if a player displays any behavior that is deemed an abuse of bonus money.
You have played a game that is excluded from all of our promotions and therefore you’re bonus money and winnings have been removed. The Casino Manager decision on this is final.
To casino:
Again, and for the last time, I will repeat to you that the game I played was not excluded.
The VIP terms state that: "Wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots (with the exception on Millionaires Club III). "
Nowhere in the VIP terms does it say that 9 line slots are excluded. Saying that wagering cannot be met on 9 line slots is not saying that 9 line slots are excluded, plain and simple, they are two different phrases with two different meanings. There has been no "bonus abuse".