Casino Operators Beware: AKA23

[mikepipe]

i gave OP my warm thanks (-21/2) with the comment "absolutely unprofessional".
nuff said.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Cheers.

I made a mistake in posting aka23's information here and I wholeheartedly apologize for doing that. I'm glad that Bryan picked it up quickly and was able to edit my post. After reading what you've said here, this was definitley the wrong venue for this discussion. Having said that, I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic and I started this thread out of frustration that aka23 did not take down our links after sending scores of bonus seeker/advantage player traffic. He's by no means legally obligated to do so but I would have expected as much as a professional courtesy.

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.

 

[Da_Gambla]

I made a mistake in posting aka23's information here and I wholeheartedly apologize for doing that. I'm glad that Bryan picked it up quickly and was able to edit my post. After reading what you've said here, this was definitley the wrong venue for this discussion. Having said that, I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic and I started this thread out of frustration that aka23 did not take down our links after sending scores of bonus seeker/advantage player traffic. He's by no means legally obligated to do so but I would have expected as much as a professional courtesy.

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.

You are developing quite a habit of of packing up your marbles and runnng home when you don't get the response you're looking for...

I hope you haven't taken any of this personal. A lot of people waltz in and immediately underestimate what this forum can do, ether postively or negatively. You have the ability to do good business as a general rule (although you can't please everyone), or you can get eaten alive in the course of 24 hrs. This forum has such a diverse set of characters that it's almost an entity all its own. One thing for sure, however, is the ever-present bullshite meter. If you ping it as hard as you did, it's gong to be a long recovery. Not impossible, mind you, but certainly challenging enough that I respect your decision to go back to what you do best over there at Prime.

Take care Josh, and of course, thanks for playing...

- Keith

 

[XXLClubCasino]

What a disappointment not to see our casino listed in the "BEST CASINO SIGN-UP BONUSES" section

 

[NASHVEGAS]

You are developing quite a habit of of packing up your marbles and runnng home when you don't get the response you're looking for..

Running home as AKA could and should lock this guy down like a Gitmo terrorist. AKA's call and probably will rightfully move on. Just a shame that so many of these online managers do not get it............I suppose Josh is one the reasons that so many veteran forum members drill the 32 Red's and Inetbet's in us underclassmen/women over and over. Kudos to them.

 

[mrracetrack]

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.
__________________
Joshua Cartu
Casino Director
PrimeCasino.com

I'm surprised you still have a job after some of the things you've posted here... in your short time as a forum member.

You've left a "Big Impression" on myself... and I'm sure quite a few others... about the way Prime Casino is run... and trust me... it wasn't the impression that you would have liked.

 

[pangloss]

.....I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic ....

Consulting pangloss' online gaming dictionary I find that "quality traffic" means in casino/affiliate speak:

"......a chump, loser, inveterate gambler, next week's pay cheque, brain dead, low-life, unable to count to 10, to be exploited at all costs, roll out the red carpet, the mortgage/rent payer, pays kid's school fees and puts bread on the table. Yum yum."


Within 12 hours of my public lauding aka23's marvelous web site and contribution to safe online gaming it appears some consider such an affiliate to be the very antichrist of Casinos.

aka promotes hundreds of other casinos and yet not a murmur of complaint from them - just a whine from Prime.


...

 

[soflat]

Sometimes the best advice is not what you are hoping to hear and it is hard to take. There was some great and honest advice given here from players, affiliates, and even other casino operators.

This is the best forum and you can learn a lot here, but apparently Josh wants a place where people will agree with him. If that is the case, then I think he'll continue to blame others for the casino not reaching its full potential.

 

[Alexandre]

Lastly, I read some of my posts on the "other" thread and realized that I may have come off a bit snide. I apologize if some of you took me this way but I was dealing with a massive influx of these "players" and so watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about. Having said that though, it was wrong to reverse chargeback their Neteller accounts and we will not be doing this again.

I made a mistake in posting aka23's information here and I wholeheartedly apologize for doing that. I'm glad that Bryan picked it up quickly and was able to edit my post. After reading what you've said here, this was definitley the wrong venue for this discussion. Having said that, I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic and I started this thread out of frustration that aka23 did not take down our links after sending scores of bonus seeker/advantage player traffic. He's by no means legally obligated to do so but I would have expected as much as a professional courtesy.

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.

Well, it looks like you've made more than one mistake lately.
It's a first step you recognize it and it's even better you apologize for it.
But while Bryan is cleaning the mess behind you on this forum, I'm wondering who is doing this job at Prime Casino ?
As mrracetrack said it before me, I'm impressed by your contribution to this forum.
I wouldn't have you as my pet sitter...the poor animal would be safer alone.
Sometimes I just don't understand all this egaming industry.
Where do they find some of these clowns we are seing regulary coming on this forum with the "casino manager" title ?

 

[jenn1381]

Running away with your tail between your legs is probably not the answer here... Yes, sometimes people here can be brutal - BUT - they are usually correct and merely trying to get people to see the truth. I for one look am always impressed when casino's have an ongoing relationship with the forums.. Palace Group, for example.. I am sure they've hit some negativity at some point too, but they still post all the time just because... and it is appreciated.

Casino's need to realize that they are in the buisness of gambling. Some people are going to be better at it than others. Some are going to come and lose, some are going to win huge amounts.. and unless they are committing fraud to help them win, casino's need to stuff it, pay them, and move on. If casino's don't want big winners, they are in the wrong buisness. Mathematics prove that it will happen, and the more players you get the more often it will happen. If you expect every single player to have a positive balance with you (deposits equal more than withdrawls) than you're living in a dream world.

Nuff outta me.. moving on.

 

[BBKPoker]

What a disappointment not to see our casino listed in the "BEST CASINO SIGN-UP BONUSES" section

That would be because you have miniscule bet-sizes.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

That would be because you have miniscule bet-sizes.

I guess yes, betsize increase with VIP levels. This setup was of course defined to prevent the all-In first bet of bonus lovers

Also minusule is a question of definition in our case almost no players play on the max limit per game i.e 250 per spin or 25 per BJ hands, exept of course the bonus lovers.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I guess yes, betsize increase with VIP levels. This setup was of course defined to prevent the all-In first bet of bonus lovers

Also minusule is a question of definition in our case almost no players play on the max limit per game i.e 250 per spin or 25 per BJ hands, exept of course the bonus lovers.

You should be glad you are not near the top of the "best bonuses" list. The list is meant for bonuses that can be had by advantage players, and does not represent the true value for a "normal" player who would use lower bets and more hands or spins.
To value a bonus for "recreational" play, one should look at the WR, and see how much bankroll would be lost to the HE of applicable games. If this comes to less than the value of a cashable bonus, then such bonus is vulnerable to the "grinder". The best bonuses would be large enough to extend play, but with WR to ensure a broadly neutral outcome based on the "grinder". This would ensure that only a lucky streak would allow a player to withdraw a profit, and low bet sizes will ensure any advantage player would still need several wins at a game of Blackjack to get enough of a boost before making WR, rather than a huge boost from one 50/50 outcome.

AKA23 is only one site, shutting his links will achieve nothing, he can still discuss the bonus, how to play it, and players can link through from other sites, or even just Google for the site.
The wizard of odds website discusses the mathematics behind most casino games, and variations with different softwares. He only promotes BoDog, but has bonus beating strategies comlete with degree level algebra.

Paying affiliates for players based on CPA rather than revenue share gives a huge incentive to run an advantage play site. The site gets traffic because of the quality of information, and even though players win, the site still makes money.

Even if all casinos banned CPA, advantage sites could run on a subscription model, with players paying to get hold of information on advantage play. There are a small number of fruit machine sites here in the UK based on this model, and although some are just scams, others contain useful information about fruitie exploits that most people never hear about till it is too late.

The only real way out is for casinos to think up of a way to attract players without making their SUB a steal for the clever mathematicians among us.

While Josh is drawing criticism for starting this thread, he is the first casino operator to publically say what I bet they are all thinking behind the boadroom doors. He has confirmed what most players have suspected, that much of this talk of "groups of fraudsters" is nothing more than traffic generated from these kinds of affiliate or advantage play site, hence we have unbelievable tales of groups of conspiritors collaborating over whole continents presented as though they actually met up together and planned the whole operation, rather than just seeing it discussed on some website, and simply joining the party.

In the case of Prime, its the 100 SUB and then nothing, where is the player retention? It is no surprise that most traffic is from bonus seekers and advantage players, who take the SUB and never look in again. Most other casinos run various promotions to entice players to come back and play again, and the best ensure the promotions are varied, so no advantage player can work them by rote for too long without having to do the maths all over again.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

You should be glad you are not near the top of the "best bonuses" list.

I said this in a sarcastic way! But I give you absolutely right on your statement that no casinos loves the one shot never see again bonus lovers. When we first started a year ago we were very generous in the way we setup our bonuses and with the list aloud for wagering. The result was of course a disastrous net income as you can imagine.

It would not come to my mind to complain to any affiliates our not to pay the lucky mathematicians players. We set the bonuses, we set the T&C, we are the only responsible for what happened. Anyway we learned from OUR mistakes and made the appropriate changes in our bonus setup. We still are hit by "bonus lovers" but far less than before.

 

[BBKPoker]

I guess yes, betsize increase with VIP levels. This setup was of course defined to prevent the all-In first bet of bonus lovers

Also minusule is a question of definition in our case almost no players play on the max limit per game i.e 250 per spin or 25 per BJ hands, exept of course the bonus lovers.

That's fine for you to make that decision obviously, but it's probably not that good of a business decision. If you don't want to spread limits of 1-300 per hand, players can choose to play on virtually any other Microgaming (max bet limits of $200) Playtech (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $300) or RTG site (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $250).

I'd guess something like 98% of the industry offers at least $100 bets or larger. And, you'll probably never find out what it's like to have a whale slamming maximum bets for 3 hours with poor strategy, because there is zero chance you are going to keep one with those starting limits. I for one would just immediately withdraw and go elsewhere.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

That's fine for you to make that decision obviously, but it's probably not that good of a business decision. If you don't want to spread limits of 1-300 per hand, players can choose to play on virtually any other Microgaming (max bet limits of $200) Playtech (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $300) or RTG site (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $250).

I'd guess something like 98% of the industry offers at least $100 bets or larger. And, you'll probably never find out what it's like to have a whale slamming maximum bets for 3 hours with poor strategy, because there is zero chance you are going to keep one with those starting limits. I for one would just immediately withdraw and go elsewhere.

We have a couple of highrollers in our casinos mostly Russians where we were more than happy to adjust their VIP levels and the associated game limits which is way over the 300$ max bet that you see at other casinos.

For us the definition of a highrollers do not start with the standard 200$ max deposit to get the max available bonus. Any "real" highroller will contact our VIP manager previous to make any deposit. During the first contact table limits, welcome bonuses etc. are adjusted to best fit the player requirements and taste. The regular WR as well as restricted games will be partially lifted or define with the player to best match his gambling habits.

For us this one to one player relationship is working perfectly well and players as well as we are better of than before adjustments were made. By reducing the bet limits for "standard" players and bonus lovers we have manage to turn our casino from a non profitable business to a profitable one which is what we were looking fore.

Bonus lovers can hit a casino in a unbelievable way within a very short time, this due to the fact than when a player find a mathematical way to risk none of his own cash and turn a negative hedge to a positive by playing smart, he will spread the word through the various internet information gateways. The casino see then 1000 of players playing the exact same way and see itself hit badly. I'm pretty sure most of the time it's not a player syndicate but only a simple response to a forum entry or a mass mailing.

For our part we took this decision after reviewing 1000s of players accounts and game logs with professionals mathematicians like the "wizard of odds" and the current setup produced the awaited effect.

I'm sure other casinos will follow in the same direction. From this original posting you can see that a casino can't survive to be hit this way over a long periode of time and casinos managers are overwhelmed with it and react all differently. The same is valid in landbase casinos BJ tables have tables limits for all type of players but you will barely never see 1-300, at least I never see it.

If anyone has good revolutionary ideas on the best way to handle welcome bonuses for a wast majority of players from a .05 to a 300$ per spin I would love to hear it and try to implement it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If anyone has good revolutionary ideas on the best way to handle welcome bonuses for a wast majority of players from a .05 to a 300$ per spin I would love to hear it and try to implement it.

Any bonus with a +EV is going to get hit by hunters. Lowering initial table limits prevents this, but might mean you lose players who think the limits are permanent.
High Rollers are less interested in the bonus than in good service, such as having your questions answered instead of a standard "cut & paste" reply.

Problems have been caused at XXLClub by players not knowing the initial limits are set lower than other places. This could be remedied by stipulating these limits are set because of the welcome bonus, and inviting players who want higher limits to make contact to discuss a deal. Since you get to communicate in advance, you have a chance to determine if the player is likely to be serious, or a bonus hunter pretending to be a high roller having just read the last post!

 

[aka23]

What a disappointment not to see our casino listed in the "BEST CASINO SIGN-UP BONUSES" section.

That would be because you have miniscule bet-sizes.

It has more to do with the terms of the bonus. The sign-up bonus is non-cashable; and Blackjack, Video Poker, and 3-card Poker are all not allowed. The remaining available games all have a house edge of >2.6%, so the player is expected to lose most of the sticky bonus during the wagering.

Many casinos have a similar offer to the above. In the past month, two groups with similar offers thanked me for the quality of traffic referred (links appear on all bonus and sw lists, not best bonus list). One went so far as to offer a large CPA, if I moved their casino to 1st on the best bonus list. I doubt that bonus hunters will make a large dent in profits with an offer like this, regardless of table limits.

 

[cyprean]

Any "real" highroller will contact our VIP manager previous to make any deposit.

I laughed when I read this.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Problems have been caused at XXLClub by players not knowing the initial limits are set lower than other places. This could be remedied by stipulating these limits are set because of the welcome bonus, and inviting players who want higher limits to make contact to discuss a deal. Since you get to communicate in advance, you have a chance to determine if the player is likely to be serious, or a bonus hunter pretending to be a high roller having just read the last post!

I totally agree with you that we should better describe the steps needed to increase the table limits, I'll work on this. Proactive communication is always the best.

Regarding problems with caused to players, I'm not aware of this. We had a couple of max deposits (200) where players asked to be refunded before playing meaning they were surely unhappy either by the games restrictions or the table limits but we of course refunded the players his deposit at no charge and in full.

To be honest and you are all surely aware of this is that one of the criteria to detect bonus seekers is:

1. Maximum deposit of the first deposit bonus (i.e 200 deposit + 200 bonus)
2. Maximum bets at low house hedge

This rule apply to almost 100% of the bonus lovers. This means for us that no highroller or recreational player do play this way. Highrollers will deposit more than the 200 and recreational players will not bet the maximum per hands.

Given these pretty straight forwards assumptions I strongly believe that we did the right thing and that we are not really missing a lot of highroller business.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I totally agree with you that we should better describe the steps needed to increase the table limits, I'll work on this. Proactive communication is always the best.

Regarding problems with caused to players, I'm not aware of this. We had a couple of max deposits (200) where players asked to be refunded before playing meaning they were surely unhappy either by the games restrictions or the table limits but we of course refunded the players his deposit at no charge and in full.

To be honest and you are all surely aware of this is that one of the criteria to detect bonus seekers is:

1. Maximum deposit of the first deposit bonus (i.e 200 deposit + 200 bonus)
2. Maximum bets at low house hedge

This rule apply to almost 100% of the bonus lovers. This means for us that no highroller or recreational player do play this way. Highrollers will deposit more than the 200 and recreational players will not bet the maximum per hands.

Given these pretty straight forwards assumptions I strongly believe that we did the right thing and that we are not really missing a lot of highroller business.

I have seen some casinos offer a "high roller" deal directly on the website. It normally comes with a MINIMUM deposit in the $1000+ range, and may have set terms, or an invitation to discuss.

Your criteria 1 & 2 are a very good sign of detecting a bonus hunter, as this is the best way to handle the non-cashable bonus. A "recreational" player could well deposit the $200 max, but would want the bankroll to last longer than 2 seconds. The non-cashable element may be putting off some players due to the fact that they have to play games with 2%+ house edge, and thus may feel they can never win from the first deposit.
The best thing to consider is removing ALL game exclusions, and using table limits alone to control advantage strategy, making sure players know before depositing that by accepting the bonus they agree to these limits.

In the long term, marketing need to look for ways to attract players without the standard SUB. These have to be inviting enough to compete with SUB offers, yet not so loose that advantage players can harvest them with little effort. These incentives might be based on how much a player wagers, not how big their deposit was, and could run for a set period of time from account opening.
For example, having 1% of their total WAGER on slots refunded to them. This will look great when it turns up in the account, but with a house edge greater than this, the casino, over all participating players, will only lose 1% of the 5% or so house edge on slots.

 

[JohnGalt]

I'm sure other casinos will follow in the same direction. From this original posting you can see that a casino can't survive to be hit this way over a long periode of time and casinos managers are overwhelmed with it and react all differently. The same is valid in landbase casinos BJ tables have tables limits for all type of players but you will barely never see 1-300, at least I never see it.

Not many places offer $1 bets but plenty of casinos have bigger spreads than that. Bellagio, for example, always has a couple $5-$5000 blackjack tables.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Not many places offer $1 bets but plenty of casinos have bigger spreads than that. Bellagio, for example, always has a couple $5-$5000 blackjack tables.

But they won't give you 200$ in free bonus to sit down at the table but thank you for the info.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I have seen some casinos offer a "high roller" deal directly on the website. It normally comes with a MINIMUM deposit in the $1000+ range, and may have set terms, or an invitation to discuss.

Your criteria 1 & 2 are a very good sign of detecting a bonus hunter, as this is the best way to handle the non-cashable bonus. A "recreational" player could well deposit the $200 max, but would want the bankroll to last longer than 2 seconds. The non-cashable element may be putting off some players due to the fact that they have to play games with 2%+ house edge, and thus may feel they can never win from the first deposit.
The best thing to consider is removing ALL game exclusions, and using table limits alone to control advantage strategy, making sure players know before depositing that by accepting the bonus they agree to these limits.

In the long term, marketing need to look for ways to attract players without the standard SUB. These have to be inviting enough to compete with SUB offers, yet not so loose that advantage players can harvest them with little effort. These incentives might be based on how much a player wagers, not how big their deposit was, and could run for a set period of time from account opening.
For example, having 1% of their total WAGER on slots refunded to them. This will look great when it turns up in the account, but with a house edge greater than this, the casino, over all participating players, will only lose 1% of the 5% or so house edge on slots.

I think cashback is the way to go. We offer a cashback of 5-10% on any lost but with a max WD of 100 at the moment to all players that deposit.

We are doing the math to extend this cashback without any game restrictions and max cashout but it's quite a challenging task, a 1% cashback will look quite unspectacular to players and with an average of 96.5-102% monthly payout percentage we can't give much more so we better be over careful and miss some business.

We are also working on a new type of exclusive free side bets that will act as a new bonus system.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I think cashback is the way to go. We offer a cashback of 5-10% on any lost but with a max WD of 100 at the moment to all players that deposit.

We are doing the math to extend this cashback without any game restrictions and max cashout but it's quite a challenging task, a 1% cashback will look quite unspectacular to players and with an average of 96.5-102% monthly payout percentage we can't give much more so we better be over careful and miss some business.

We are also working on a new type of exclusive free side bets that will act as a new bonus system.

I did have a look at the current offers, and they are indeed "crap", especially for me as a Brit. The 25x slots playthrough & non-cashable nature make it better to play without the SUB, although it might be worth using the SUB to chase down a progressive.

It seems an increasing number of "Brit hating" casinos are springing up, and this will only put off players from the only European "first world" country to formally recognise remote gaming as legal, and offer a regulatory regime to operators (albeit spoiled by Gordon Browns greed, and lack of understanding of internet market forces).

Not as bad as the 50x WR I saw earlier, but I would stick with cashable bonuses with WR being so high, and this means Microgaming at the standard 30x Bonus only for slots, and game weightings for the rest.