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Casino Operators Beware: AKA23

Discussion in 'Other Complaints' started by PrimeCasino, May 30, 2007.

    May 30, 2007
  1. PrimeCasino

    PrimeCasino Dormant account

    Location:
    Cyprus
    Though I know that this forum is typically dedicated to the player side of the business, I thought this to be revalent given the recent roast of Prime Casino. In addition, I felt that this was a large enough audience to make those of you who are operators/affiliate managers/casino directors, aware of what's happening.

    I am actually in agreement with those of you have deemed some of our terms to be "Draconian". I have had to modify our terms in this manner due to the fact that the lion's share of our traffic over the last two months consisted bonus seekers and advantage players. Though there is absolutely nothing illegal or even immoral about being one of these people, it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers.

    Having said everything above, I'd like to bring an issue to light that has been plaguing us for several weeks. There exist in our business, rings of advantage, bonus seeker, and mathematical gamblers (I don't like labels but whatever you want to call them...) that are coming from a very short list of affiliates. At the top of this list in our Casino is a man known as: AKA23. I informed the Affiliate Manager dealing with him to ask him politely to stop sending traffic over two weeks ago. Since then, one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money.

    Again, there is nothing illegal about what this man is doing but I want to make all of you aware to watch out for this guy. He and a few other affiliates (in my opinion) are running a largescale operation sending hordes of bonus seekers to casinos. I can confirm this because I have a friend at another major Microgaming group who was complaining about this very person to me. He has also sent almost the same number of players to them as well. It was then that I decided to say something about it as I would prefer that affiliates like this are banned from all Affiliate Programs as they make business very difficult for everyone.

    Though AKA has been polite and candid about sending awful players, he has after two weeks of almost daily emails, refused to take our listing down from his sites.

    In summary, he is the main source of our poor quality traffic and our new terms and conditions have been adjusted to prevent us from being cleaned out by his players and others like them.

    Lastly, I read some of my posts on the "other" thread and realized that I may have come off a bit snide. I apologize if some of you took me this way but I was dealing with a massive influx of these "players" and so watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about. Having said that though, it was wrong to reverse chargeback their Neteller accounts and we will not be doing this again.

    Our software has been recently patched to make it impossible to withdraw until the wagering requirements are met. Because of this new feature, we will never again issue a payment that shouldn't be issued. Having said that, a player will never actually be able to break the terms by withdrawing early either.

    All the best and Good Luck,

    Josh.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2007
  2. May 30, 2007
  3. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    So this post is about an affiliate and not players.

    I am not going to get into all of this, but it does seem odd to me that he would refuse to take your listing down after you stop paying comissions.

    Doesn't make a lot of sense.
     
  4. May 30, 2007
  5. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    aka23 is well known and indeed respected here. lucky sonofabitch too! when he made like 50k playing casinos, he decided to put his winnings to work by running an aff site. he just wants others to be able to share in the joy and luck he's experienced. if you pay him on revenue and not per signup, he will not make any money (since his players seem to win a lot) and that's all you can do. he could still send players to you even if it wasn't through banner/links. he runs a bonus advice website and as such he does your advertising for you. he also provides his visitors with sound play strategies for the various bonuses. but i think even if he got cut as an aff from everyone he is linked to, he would still keep the site up minus the clickthrough links, and players could still use his advice. so i guess forum owners and aff site owners really are the "kingpins" behind all the "organized advantage/abuse rings" going around eh?
     
  6. May 30, 2007
  7. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    @Prime Casino

    Please don't post real names unless you have permission from the person. Thanks!
     
  8. May 30, 2007
  9. lnspin

    lnspin Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Webmaster - Mygamblinglife.com
    Location:
    WorldWide
    I still cannot see what the problem is when players win , using the bonus you give them , and making the playthru you require . it should not matter if they are mathematical gamblers , it is your bonus and you make the rules .

    Hoe about make a term in the t&c no mathematical gamblers allowed or how about this , dont use a bonus if you are going to win ,

    You even stated yourself nothing illegal about it , why give a bonus then if you do not want bonus seekers .
     
  10. May 30, 2007
  11. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    Edit -- Double Post
     
  12. May 30, 2007
  13. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    The facts you listed are not accurate. My affiliate agreement with Prime was terminated slightly less than 1 week ago. While the agreement was terminated, it was not until yesterday that anybody mentioned removing links, and only a single email was sent. This is far less than the "2 weeks of almost daily emails" mentioned in your post. I replied to this email and did not hear back from your affiliate manager. I had previously offered to promote tournaments and other ways to improve quality of players, and again I did not hear back.

    I have greatly reduced Prime's ranking in my bonus lists due to the incidents related to removing winnings from Neteller accounts with your terms change. I doubt that I have been sending you much traffic since this change. This traffic does not have any affiliate tags and should not appear in your stats. As to why I don't remove all mention of Prime Casino from my sites... my sites are not centered around the size of affiliate commissions. They are centered around accurate information. My casino/bonus lists rank casinos according to who I believe offers the best bonus based on quality of bonus, quality of casino, risk of unexpected problems, and several other factors. The order is not determined by size of commissions.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2007
    3 people like this.
  14. May 30, 2007
  15. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    A forum does not make a "ring". A "ring" or "cartel" is criminal and consits of a group of people who use fake ID and all sorts of subterfuge to keep returning to play the same welcome bonuses.

    Forums are all about free speech and play strategies are always discussed. Some work, some don't.

    What we really need in this industry is a "dictionary" that defines who is who and what is what, so we can all use the same language. There is more confusion about "abuse" and "advantage" and "groups" and what have you than I have ever seen any other place. Threads go on and on about who is what and nothing ever gets into facts because people use the same words and mean different things by them.

    Affiliates don't expect to be paid when the casino isn't making a profit. Casinos would drop like flies if they paid affiliates for traffic that loses money for the casino - a double whammie.

    It sounds like we are talking about what I call advantage players here, and the only way a casino can avoid them is by designing fool proof welcome bonus T&Cs, or by using retention bonuses instead.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. May 30, 2007
  17. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    i had a feeling i might have gotten taken seriously there. i used quotation marks! from the coolcat thread, it appears a forum is the hub where all the conspiracy takes place, and then the players swoop on any casino dumb enough to take them. now prime alleges that aka's site is also a "safe haven" for abusive/advantage/nuissance players. so i was just sarcastically asking if casinos really think forums and aff sites are the HQ for these bonus abusers, and the tie that binds them all together into an "organized racket".
     
  18. May 30, 2007
  19. ogpaper

    ogpaper Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmaster
    Location:
    usa
    :lolup:

    Wow, I cannot believe you went public like that. I would be surprised if you have any affiliates left, so you may as well just shut down and pack up.

    Do you think your casino is the only one with advantage-players? Instead of bashing an affiliate for NOT breaking T&C, how about getting some affiliates with good traffic to compensate for the rest?

    And this is not the way you will get affiliates to sign up and promote your casino. Buying a software and hiring 5 people to pick up the phone is not how you run a successful casino.

    I hope your story will help other affiliate programs and casinos see clearly that the affiliates are a very important part of the business and they can make you or break you (unless you do it yourselves first).

    As Dom said - Rev Share Only would ensure a quality flow of traffic to your casino.

    Yup, you guys were itching for the big bucks, and no one paid attention to the fact that mathematics could be (and are) employed by the casinos, as well. There is not a single casino in the world which depends on luck to make profits.
     
  20. May 30, 2007
  21. Professor

    Professor Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Webmaster - Community Moderator
    Location:
    DontArrestMe USA
    [​IMG]

    "I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a advantage player. You have a right to ban me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was an online Blackjack player. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a casino to collect a few bonuses. We left the casino after we had played for an hour or two and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and the casino boss had come and closed every one of our accounts. There they were in a pile. A pile of little closed accounts. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that. These pit bosses were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to ban players and affiliates without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us."

    Col. Walter E. Kurtz
     
  22. May 30, 2007
  23. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Someone's been hittin' up the whacky weed :D
     
  24. May 30, 2007
  25. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    hehe Prof, you have been reading some weird s#!t ! :lolup:

    Actually it's a classic, but that makes it no less weird.
     
  26. May 30, 2007
  27. Professor

    Professor Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Webmaster - Community Moderator
    Location:
    DontArrestMe USA
    Its surreal, just like this thread....
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. May 30, 2007
  29. soflat

    soflat Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Scientist
    Location:
    Florida
    Josh are you new to the business? You haven't figured out how to handle advantage players and the affiliates that refer them yet?

    Are you trying to start a cartel here? A cartel of casinos and affiliate managers?
     
  30. May 30, 2007
  31. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Sounds more to me as if it's the operators who are sinking their own ships with ill-advised bonus sums that possibly negate the "edge" factor.....this certainly is a weird thread.

    This is a casino manager complaining about an affiliate who's sending him lots of traffic - traffic which legitimately adheres to T&Cs that the casino itself has designed!

    Who's fault is it that the casino has lost big bucks in this scenario? Shouldn't the casino take into account that amongst the gamblers it attracts with its bonus offers there are certain to be expert players who can test the T&C - legally - to the maximum?

    Unfortunately, the downside of this sort of experience means that casinos are likely to tighten up or modify their T&Cs to combat the (for them) worse possible scenario of too many expert gamblers....and that means ordinary players will find less in the way of bonuses too.

    There are some good suggestions in this thread, especially about retention.
     
    2 people like this.
  32. May 30, 2007
  33. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    Let me get this straight.

    This guy appears to have a site called "Beating Bonuses". It is public website, anyone can go there. It appears they have done, and have clicked on his link to your site.

    This does not represent a 'ring' in any shape or form, and it is inappropriate and possibly defamatory to describe it as one, and to name him personally.

    Secondly, to make a comment like this is just stupid:

    "one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money."

    You have ONE signup bonus of 100. If this guy has made an "enormous amount of money" he as not "taken you for it", he has won it by g-a-m-b-l-i-n-g. Most casinos I understand to be in the business of gambling. Perhaps yours is not - this explains why you are not attracting any 'good' players, as the implication from your comments, that players are simply there to make regular cash donations, as if you were some kind of charitable cause.

    To make it clear: the 100 you gave him, the "enormous amount of money", he *won*.

    Moving on, your suggestion that he is somehow acting improperly by refusing to remove your link is again foolish and possibly defamatory.

    Aka23 is, I believe, an American and has a constitutional right of free speech. Linking to your website is his right, and you should not be suggesting that he is doing anything wrong by doing this. I am not sure of the terms of your contract with him, but I am sure that as an honest legitimate business you will pay whatever consideration is due under the terms of your contract for the players he has sent your way.

    You do of course have a right to cease to do business with him as an affiliate, having complied with your contractual obligations in respect of past transactions, but your suggestion that he should remove a simple hyperlink is absurd.

    You in turn are quite free to ban players coming from his site, before they deposit, although I must confess I am rather concerned by another statement you made.

    "watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about"

    Eh????? What?

    As I suggested above, casinos are in the gambling business. Not the donation to business.

    So it is not a very good advertisement for your business when you openly admit to not really caring about paying your winners.

    "it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers. "

    Indeed. Such is running a business. It's hard to make a profit as a fine dining restaurant when the only customers don't have much money as well.

    It's also hard to make a profit as a car dealer if you don't sell any cars.

    Boo hoo. Improve your marketing. Change your business plan. Block signups from his site.

    Do whatever it is you want to do.

    But don't come whining and blaming someone else's behaviour for the fact that you've apparently opened the world's first casino were you don't like people to gamble.

    If your business loses money CHANGE YOUR BUSINESS.

    It's not rocket science really.
     
    6 people like this.
  34. May 30, 2007
  35. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    They have a CPA agreement to pay $75 per new customer.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    If you send 20 customers, win or lose, the casino owes the affiliate $1500. Very simple.

    If the casino finds the traffic is not profitable, the terms of the agreement typically provide that they can move him onto a revenue share, where if the casino doesn't make any money, the affiliate doesn't get paid.

    But they still have to pay for the traffic they sent to him before they changed the agreement.
     
  36. May 31, 2007
  37. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    Not sure what the T&Cs are there, but usually there is a rule about minimum value of deposits when you do CPA.

    On CAP you will see dozens of complaint posts because the casino closing the CPA affiliate account - usually it turns out there is a clause in the T&C about it.

    There used to be a lot of stuff going on years back, where players would sign up as affiliates and get a CPA deal, and then send all their friends to make minimum deposits and the casinos would pay out 3x the amount they took in.

    Obviously no business can exist like that, so they created the minimum value T&Cs.
     
  38. May 31, 2007
  39. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    Is it just me or is the title of this thread unwarranted and more than a little derogatory toward AKA23?

    I for one vote for an edit.
     

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