Casino Operators Beware: AKA23

[PrimeGaming]

Though I know that this forum is typically dedicated to the player side of the business, I thought this to be revalent given the recent roast of Prime Casino. In addition, I felt that this was a large enough audience to make those of you who are operators/affiliate managers/casino directors, aware of what's happening.

I am actually in agreement with those of you have deemed some of our terms to be "Draconian". I have had to modify our terms in this manner due to the fact that the lion's share of our traffic over the last two months consisted bonus seekers and advantage players. Though there is absolutely nothing illegal or even immoral about being one of these people, it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers.

Having said everything above, I'd like to bring an issue to light that has been plaguing us for several weeks. There exist in our business, rings of advantage, bonus seeker, and mathematical gamblers (I don't like labels but whatever you want to call them...) that are coming from a very short list of affiliates. At the top of this list in our Casino is a man known as: AKA23. I informed the Affiliate Manager dealing with him to ask him politely to stop sending traffic over two weeks ago. Since then, one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money.

Again, there is nothing illegal about what this man is doing but I want to make all of you aware to watch out for this guy. He and a few other affiliates (in my opinion) are running a largescale operation sending hordes of bonus seekers to casinos. I can confirm this because I have a friend at another major Microgaming group who was complaining about this very person to me. He has also sent almost the same number of players to them as well. It was then that I decided to say something about it as I would prefer that affiliates like this are banned from all Affiliate Programs as they make business very difficult for everyone.

Though AKA has been polite and candid about sending awful players, he has after two weeks of almost daily emails, refused to take our listing down from his sites.

In summary, he is the main source of our poor quality traffic and our new terms and conditions have been adjusted to prevent us from being cleaned out by his players and others like them.

Lastly, I read some of my posts on the "other" thread and realized that I may have come off a bit snide. I apologize if some of you took me this way but I was dealing with a massive influx of these "players" and so watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about. Having said that though, it was wrong to reverse chargeback their Neteller accounts and we will not be doing this again.

Our software has been recently patched to make it impossible to withdraw until the wagering requirements are met. Because of this new feature, we will never again issue a payment that shouldn't be issued. Having said that, a player will never actually be able to break the terms by withdrawing early either.

All the best and Good Luck,

Josh.

 

[dominique]

So this post is about an affiliate and not players.

I am not going to get into all of this, but it does seem odd to me that he would refuse to take your listing down after you stop paying comissions.

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[happygobrokey]

aka23 is well known and indeed respected here. lucky sonofabitch too! when he made like 50k playing casinos, he decided to put his winnings to work by running an aff site. he just wants others to be able to share in the joy and luck he's experienced. if you pay him on revenue and not per signup, he will not make any money (since his players seem to win a lot) and that's all you can do. he could still send players to you even if it wasn't through banner/links. he runs a bonus advice website and as such he does your advertising for you. he also provides his visitors with sound play strategies for the various bonuses. but i think even if he got cut as an aff from everyone he is linked to, he would still keep the site up minus the clickthrough links, and players could still use his advice. so i guess forum owners and aff site owners really are the "kingpins" behind all the "organized advantage/abuse rings" going around eh?

 

[The Dude]

@Prime Casino

Please don't post real names unless you have permission from the person. Thanks!

 

[lnspin]

I still cannot see what the problem is when players win , using the bonus you give them , and making the playthru you require . it should not matter if they are mathematical gamblers , it is your bonus and you make the rules .

Hoe about make a term in the t&c no mathematical gamblers allowed or how about this , dont use a bonus if you are going to win ,

You even stated yourself nothing illegal about it , why give a bonus then if you do not want bonus seekers .

 

[aka23]

Edit -- Double Post

 

[aka23]

The facts you listed are not accurate. My affiliate agreement with Prime was terminated slightly less than 1 week ago. While the agreement was terminated, it was not until yesterday that anybody mentioned removing links, and only a single email was sent. This is far less than the "2 weeks of almost daily emails" mentioned in your post. I replied to this email and did not hear back from your affiliate manager. I had previously offered to promote tournaments and other ways to improve quality of players, and again I did not hear back.

I have greatly reduced Prime's ranking in my bonus lists due to the incidents related to removing winnings from Neteller accounts with your terms change. I doubt that I have been sending you much traffic since this change. This traffic does not have any affiliate tags and should not appear in your stats. As to why I don't remove all mention of Prime Casino from my sites... my sites are not centered around the size of affiliate commissions. They are centered around accurate information. My casino/bonus lists rank casinos according to who I believe offers the best bonus based on quality of bonus, quality of casino, risk of unexpected problems, and several other factors. The order is not determined by size of commissions.

 

[dominique]

aka23 is well known and indeed respected here. lucky sonofabitch too! when he made like 50k playing casinos, he decided to put his winnings to work by running an aff site. he just wants others to be able to share in the joy and luck he's experienced. if you pay him on revenue and not per signup, he will not make any money (since his players seem to win a lot) and that's all you can do. he could still send players to you even if it wasn't through banner/links. he runs a bonus advice website and as such he does your advertising for you. he also provides his visitors with sound play strategies for the various bonuses. but i think even if he got cut as an aff from everyone he is linked to, he would still keep the site up minus the clickthrough links, and players could still use his advice. so i guess forum owners and aff site owners really are the "kingpins" behind all the "organized advantage/abuse rings" going around eh?

A forum does not make a "ring". A "ring" or "cartel" is criminal and consits of a group of people who use fake ID and all sorts of subterfuge to keep returning to play the same welcome bonuses.

Forums are all about free speech and play strategies are always discussed. Some work, some don't.

What we really need in this industry is a "dictionary" that defines who is who and what is what, so we can all use the same language. There is more confusion about "abuse" and "advantage" and "groups" and what have you than I have ever seen any other place. Threads go on and on about who is what and nothing ever gets into facts because people use the same words and mean different things by them.

Affiliates don't expect to be paid when the casino isn't making a profit. Casinos would drop like flies if they paid affiliates for traffic that loses money for the casino - a double whammie.

It sounds like we are talking about what I call advantage players here, and the only way a casino can avoid them is by designing fool proof welcome bonus T&Cs, or by using retention bonuses instead.

 

[happygobrokey]

i had a feeling i might have gotten taken seriously there. i used quotation marks! from the coolcat thread, it appears a forum is the hub where all the conspiracy takes place, and then the players swoop on any casino dumb enough to take them. now prime alleges that aka's site is also a "safe haven" for abusive/advantage/nuissance players. so i was just sarcastically asking if casinos really think forums and aff sites are the HQ for these bonus abusers, and the tie that binds them all together into an "organized racket".

 

[ogpaper]

Wow, I cannot believe you went public like that. I would be surprised if you have any affiliates left, so you may as well just shut down and pack up.

I have had to modify our terms in this manner due to the fact that the lion's share of our traffic over the last two months consisted bonus seekers and advantage players.

Do you think your casino is the only one with advantage-players? Instead of bashing an affiliate for NOT breaking T&C, how about getting some affiliates with good traffic to compensate for the rest?

I would prefer that affiliates like this are banned from all Affiliate Programs as they make business very difficult for everyone.

And this is not the way you will get affiliates to sign up and promote your casino. Buying a software and hiring 5 people to pick up the phone is not how you run a successful casino.

I hope your story will help other affiliate programs and casinos see clearly that the affiliates are a very important part of the business and they can make you or break you (unless you do it yourselves first).

As Dom said - Rev Share Only would ensure a quality flow of traffic to your casino.

it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers

Yup, you guys were itching for the big bucks, and no one paid attention to the fact that mathematics could be (and are) employed by the casinos, as well. There is not a single casino in the world which depends on luck to make profits.

 

[Professor]

"I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a advantage player. You have a right to ban me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was an online Blackjack player. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a casino to collect a few bonuses. We left the casino after we had played for an hour or two and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and the casino boss had come and closed every one of our accounts. There they were in a pile. A pile of little closed accounts. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that. These pit bosses were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to ban players and affiliates without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us."

Col. Walter E. Kurtz

 

[The Dude]

..."I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen...

Someone's been hittin' up the whacky weed

 

[dominique]

hehe Prof, you have been reading some weird s#!t !

Actually it's a classic, but that makes it no less weird.

 

[Professor]

Its surreal, just like this thread....

 

[soflat]

Josh are you new to the business? You haven't figured out how to handle advantage players and the affiliates that refer them yet?

Are you trying to start a cartel here? A cartel of casinos and affiliate managers?

 

[jetset]

Sounds more to me as if it's the operators who are sinking their own ships with ill-advised bonus sums that possibly negate the "edge" factor.....this certainly is a weird thread.

This is a casino manager complaining about an affiliate who's sending him lots of traffic - traffic which legitimately adheres to T&Cs that the casino itself has designed!

Who's fault is it that the casino has lost big bucks in this scenario? Shouldn't the casino take into account that amongst the gamblers it attracts with its bonus offers there are certain to be expert players who can test the T&C - legally - to the maximum?

Unfortunately, the downside of this sort of experience means that casinos are likely to tighten up or modify their T&Cs to combat the (for them) worse possible scenario of too many expert gamblers....and that means ordinary players will find less in the way of bonuses too.

There are some good suggestions in this thread, especially about retention.

 

[thelawnet]

Though I know that this forum is typically dedicated to the player side of the business, I thought this to be revalent given the recent roast of Prime Casino. In addition, I felt that this was a large enough audience to make those of you who are operators/affiliate managers/casino directors, aware of what's happening.

I am actually in agreement with those of you have deemed some of our terms to be "Draconian". I have had to modify our terms in this manner due to the fact that the lion's share of our traffic over the last two months consisted bonus seekers and advantage players. Though there is absolutely nothing illegal or even immoral about being one of these people, it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers.

Having said everything above, I'd like to bring an issue to light that has been plaguing us for several weeks. There exist in our business, rings of advantage, bonus seeker, and mathematical gamblers (I don't like labels but whatever you want to call them...) that are coming from a very short list of affiliates. At the top of this list in our Casino is a man known as: AKA23. I informed the Affiliate Manager dealing with him to ask him politely to stop sending traffic over two weeks ago. Since then, one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money.

Again, there is nothing illegal about what this man is doing but I want to make all of you aware to watch out for this guy. He and a few other affiliates (in my opinion) are running a largescale operation sending hordes of bonus seekers to casinos. I can confirm this because I have a friend at another major Microgaming group who was complaining about this very person to me. He has also sent almost the same number of players to them as well. It was then that I decided to say something about it as I would prefer that affiliates like this are banned from all Affiliate Programs as they make business very difficult for everyone.

Though AKA has been polite and candid about sending awful players, he has after two weeks of almost daily emails, refused to take our listing down from his sites.

In summary, he is the main source of our poor quality traffic and our new terms and conditions have been adjusted to prevent us from being cleaned out by his players and others like them.

Lastly, I read some of my posts on the "other" thread and realized that I may have come off a bit snide. I apologize if some of you took me this way but I was dealing with a massive influx of these "players" and so watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about. Having said that though, it was wrong to reverse chargeback their Neteller accounts and we will not be doing this again.

Our software has been recently patched to make it impossible to withdraw until the wagering requirements are met. Because of this new feature, we will never again issue a payment that shouldn't be issued. Having said that, a player will never actually be able to break the terms by withdrawing early either.

Let me get this straight.

This guy appears to have a site called "Beating Bonuses". It is public website, anyone can go there. It appears they have done, and have clicked on his link to your site.

This does not represent a 'ring' in any shape or form, and it is inappropriate and possibly defamatory to describe it as one, and to name him personally.

Secondly, to make a comment like this is just stupid:

"one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money."

You have ONE signup bonus of 100. If this guy has made an "enormous amount of money" he as not "taken you for it", he has won it by g-a-m-b-l-i-n-g. Most casinos I understand to be in the business of gambling. Perhaps yours is not - this explains why you are not attracting any 'good' players, as the implication from your comments, that players are simply there to make regular cash donations, as if you were some kind of charitable cause.

To make it clear: the 100 you gave him, the "enormous amount of money", he *won*.

Moving on, your suggestion that he is somehow acting improperly by refusing to remove your link is again foolish and possibly defamatory.

Aka23 is, I believe, an American and has a constitutional right of free speech. Linking to your website is his right, and you should not be suggesting that he is doing anything wrong by doing this. I am not sure of the terms of your contract with him, but I am sure that as an honest legitimate business you will pay whatever consideration is due under the terms of your contract for the players he has sent your way.

You do of course have a right to cease to do business with him as an affiliate, having complied with your contractual obligations in respect of past transactions, but your suggestion that he should remove a simple hyperlink is absurd.

You in turn are quite free to ban players coming from his site, before they deposit, although I must confess I am rather concerned by another statement you made.

"watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about"

Eh????? What?

As I suggested above, casinos are in the gambling business. Not the donation to business.

So it is not a very good advertisement for your business when you openly admit to not really caring about paying your winners.

"it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers. "

Indeed. Such is running a business. It's hard to make a profit as a fine dining restaurant when the only customers don't have much money as well.

It's also hard to make a profit as a car dealer if you don't sell any cars.

Boo hoo. Improve your marketing. Change your business plan. Block signups from his site.

Do whatever it is you want to do.

But don't come whining and blaming someone else's behaviour for the fact that you've apparently opened the world's first casino were you don't like people to gamble.

If your business loses money CHANGE YOUR BUSINESS.

It's not rocket science really.

 

[thelawnet]

Affiliates don't expect to be paid when the casino isn't making a profit. Casinos would drop like flies if they paid affiliates for traffic that loses money for the casino - a double whammie.

They have a CPA agreement to pay $75 per new customer.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

If you send 20 customers, win or lose, the casino owes the affiliate $1500. Very simple.

If the casino finds the traffic is not profitable, the terms of the agreement typically provide that they can move him onto a revenue share, where if the casino doesn't make any money, the affiliate doesn't get paid.

But they still have to pay for the traffic they sent to him before they changed the agreement.

 

[dominique]

Not sure what the T&Cs are there, but usually there is a rule about minimum value of deposits when you do CPA.

On CAP you will see dozens of complaint posts because the casino closing the CPA affiliate account - usually it turns out there is a clause in the T&C about it.

There used to be a lot of stuff going on years back, where players would sign up as affiliates and get a CPA deal, and then send all their friends to make minimum deposits and the casinos would pay out 3x the amount they took in.

Obviously no business can exist like that, so they created the minimum value T&Cs.

 

[lots0]

Is it just me or is the title of this thread unwarranted and more than a little derogatory toward AKA23?

I for one vote for an edit.

 

[lojo]

Is it just me or is the title of this thread unwarranted and more than a little derogatory toward AKA23?

I for one vote for an edit.

Are you kidding? Look at the free advertising he's getting.

kapow, backfire.

 

[dominique]

I just looked and can't find the CPA value clause. It may still be there someplace or in the agreement you sign, or maybe it's an oversight by a new casino.

 

[thelawnet]

Is it just me or is the title of this thread unwarranted and more than a little derogatory toward AKA23?

I for one vote for an edit.

I think this is already the edited version - it had his real name in it before Bryan changed it....

 

[NASHVEGAS]

PRIME & OTHER ONLINES WTF?

PART 1
Copyright Las Vegas Review-Journal JUNE 18,2006

Jury deals gamblers winning hand

Two awarded punitive damages from detective agency used by casinos

By ROD SMITH
GAMING WIRE


Two advantage gamblers whose rights were violated in an incident five years ago at Caesars Palace on Friday won punitive damages from a detective agency that supplies information to casinos.

A District Court jury ordered Griffin Investigations to pay Michael Russo $15,000 and James Grosjean $10,000 in punitive damages.

Advertisement

Advantage gamblers increase their chances of winning by legally taking advantage of a dealer's or a casino's mistakes or by means such as card counting.
Griffin Investigations supplies lists of suspected advantage players and cheats to casinos.

Last week, the jury decided that Caesars Palace had falsely imprisoned, defamed and battered the two men and that Griffin Investigations was guilty of libel and maliciousness.
It ordered each company to pay Russo and Grosjean actual damages of $25,000 apiece and found that Griffin Investigations and Caesars Palace should be subject to punitive damages. Judge Lee Gates, who heard the case, ordered Friday's hearing to decide on punitive damages.

Sources familiar with gaming law said this is probably the first case in which Griffin has failed to win on technical arguments.

The case's conclusion was also unusual for advantage gambling lawsuits, which are normally dismissed or settled out of court and for much less, usually from $15,000 to $20,000, according to several local attorneys.

On Thursday, Caesars Palace settled its punitive liabilities from the lawsuit for an undisclosed amount.

David Strow, spokesman for Harrah's Entertainment, which acquired Caesars Palace this week as part of its $9 billion merger with Caesars Entertainment, declined comment.

"The jury in this case clearly told Griffin Investigations it no longer can include the universe of advantage gamblers and just say individuals are suspected of cheating or using a device and ascribe a felony (as they did in this case)," said Bob Nersesian, a Las Vegas attorney who represents Russo and Grosjean.
The judgments vindicated his clients and showed that people in Nevada believe casinos should treat all patrons, even winners, with proper respect under the law, he said.
The complaint in this case originated from an April 2000 incident when Russo and Grosjean were playing Three Card Poker at Caesars.

Grosjean, a doctoral candidate in economics at the University of Chicago and author of "Beyond Counting," a "how-to" manual on beating the gambling odds, was winning the game thanks to a "sloppy" dealer and his own "hole carding," where a player tries to catch a glimpse of a dealer's face-down card, he said.

Caesars Palace pit workers, based in part on an entry about Russo in Griffin Investigations' book of known cheats, detained the two men and accused them of card bending.

Griffin Investigations has listed Russo in its book since 1993, and has described him as having a history of "21 hole carding, card bending, Caribbean Stud conspiracy."

The company also listed Russo as a "known" card bender in a number of fliers sent to casinos.

Caesars Palace called the Nevada Gaming Control Board, handcuffed and searched Russo and Grosjean and detained them for five hours.

Russo and Grosjean were then arrested by Las Vegas police for allegedly cheating.

Russo was released the next day, but Grosjean was held in custody for 4 1/2 days.

At the recent trial, Caesars Palace contended the Gaming Control Board had investigated and decided to arrest Russo and Grosjean. However, the jury found Caesars Palace had pressed to have them arrested based on evidence the casino gave state investigators.

The jury found that Caesars Palace had no probable cause to believe that Russo or Grosjean committed a gaming violation or a felony.

Last year, Grosjean won a $400,000 judgment against Imperial Palace in a related case.

PART 2
Griffin Investigations
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Griffin Investigations was once the most prominent group of private investigators specializing in the gambling industry. The company was founded in 1967 by Beverly S. Griffin and Robert R. Griffin.
The company maintained dossiers on card counters, serial jackpot winners, and other individuals, chiefly professional gamblers using legal techniques to gain an advantage in casino games; these profiles were regularly published in the Griffin Book, and distributed to subscribing casinos. Griffin Investigations was instrumental in ending the MIT Blackjack Teams winning streak, after a Griffin investigator purchased the names, photographs, and other details identifying the groups members and the company distributed the information to casinos. Roughly half of the major casinos in the U.S. once subscribed to Griffins services.

Griffin also marketed a controversial face recognition system that used computer software to compare gamblers' faces against several volumes of mug shots. According to a Las Vegas Sun article, Beverly Griffin, co-owner of Griffin Investigations, "estimates as many as half of Southern Nevada's casinos now use biometric technology to identify the faces of card cheats or other undesirables"[1]. However, a Las Vegas casino surveillance director (writing under the pseudonym Cellini) reported in the 2004 book The Card Counter's Guide to Casino Surveillance that biometric technology was considered virtually useless by actual casino surveillance operatives because of overwhelming numbers of false reads.


[edit] History
The Las Vegas Sun reported on September 13, 2005, that Griffin Investigations had filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in light of legal costs and damages from a successful defamation lawsuit against the company. The lawsuit had been brought by two gamblers, Michael Russo and James Grosjean, claiming they had been improperly detained, labeled as cheaters and arrested, on the basis of information supplied by Griffin[2].

 

[Da_Gambla]

A great deal of my posts in the "Prime removed from Neteller" thread had to do with a sense I was getting from Josh at Prime. I did not contribute a first post to that thread until quite late in the game. A lot of people asked why I wouldn't just accept his answers and move on. It was because of his arrogance that I kept pressing.

I hope it is now clear what I was seeing, and why I kept pressuring.

This post by Josh is calling for all casino managers to basically collaborate to try and end AKA's affiliate business.

For the record, Josh, you have violated two terms of your account at CM:

1.4 - No posting of privileged information. Please remember to respect other's privacy. In the public forum, do not post real names, email addresses, or other personal identifiers that may be considered privileged information. If these items are already publicly available, this shouldn't be a problem. But if these are from private correspondence, or from some user database, discretion is advised.

1.6 - No "Libelous" Posts. Do not make posts that could be considered libelous, defamatory, or posting merely to cause harm to another's business. Opinions are expected, but do not attack others with accusations of criminal activity unless this has been proven in a court of law.

I'm not the least bit surprised at this post.

- Keith