Casino City and Ecogra

[caruso]

I thought this deserved pride of place in the OC forum.

Bryan posted a challenge to the DOJ on the part of this orgaization in the industry section, and one is lead to believe this is a "repuatable" portal group. Their association with the Windows scum and these fraudulent "Ecogra" claims deserve a good airing.

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So on the one hand they claim the moral high ground by challenging the the US anti-gambling laws, whilst covertly advertising for the lowest of the bottom of the barrel RTG pond-dwelling scum on the net, and go spectacularly beyond even THAT by claiming "certification" for a company that offers a genuine dispute resolution service and appears to be genuine in that regard - my other misgivings about other aspects of their business notwithstanding. The Ecogra claim is obviously completely bogus.

This is quite extraordinary in both regards.

(Needless to say, players should go nowhere near Windows. They have a NOTORIOUS history of invoking "fraud" claims as an excuse to not pay winners.)

 

[caruso]

EDIT: Screenshot removed because it messed up the thread.

 

[The Dude]

I think some webmaster effed up. That eCogra seal shouldn't be there on that page.

 

[caruso]

Trying again with the screenshot...

EDIT: Note also the advert for Crystal Palace on the right. Friedmann and Cloud, the two most notorious operators in the stable, and stolen seals.

 

[jyde]

LOL - Netgaming is also eCOGRA certified.
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[The Dude]

It's a screwup on the webmaster's part. Looks like every casino listed at Casino City has the eCogra logo on the specific casino page, but on the main index page of the casinos - only those certified have the logos.
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[snuf419]

...and one is lead to believe this is a "repuatable" portal group. Their association with the Windows scum ...

If this one is also certified, why not Windows?
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[jetset]

Caruso's prejudice showing again - he's already posted this elsewhere on this site and is no doubt enjoying himself hugely at eCOGRA's and Casino City's expense.

As the 'Meister says, this is clearly a screw-up at CC - there is no way that Windows would pass the eCOGRA inspections.

This tremendous "discovery" was first posted by Joeyl at WOL (and probably on the Sucks site too)

 

[dominique]

Looks like the webmaster reused the same page for each listing and that base page included the ecogra sign.

Not a quick fix, either.

I want to congratulate Casino City for the guts and determination it took to file this suit. The implications for players, casinos, webmasters and general freedom of speech are huge.

 

[jetset]

Exactly - it takes some guts to stand up to the DoJ when you're a US company as Casino City is, and this is an issue germaine to the entire industry.

All the more reason why it is a pity that Caruso has allowed his petty vendetta against eCOGRA to deflect attention from this development.

 

[The Dude]

I just spoke with Michael Corfman over the phone. He found out about the screw-up about a minute before the call. It's being fixed as I type.

 

[caruso]

Caruso's prejudice showing again - he's already posted this elsewhere on this site

WTF are you talking about? I haven't mentioned this here or ANYWHERE else. And if you bothered to get your reading glasses on you'll see I was pointing out that the Ecogra seals are bogusly placed - whether by the apparent "accident" or design. Get a life, Jetset.

OK, what's going on here? This portal I've never come across before is blatantly advertising the worst crooks out there - Windows, CASINO BAR, Crystal Palace, NETGAMING - and all the industry people, Bryan, Jetset etc, are turning a blind eye?? You're all quick enough to jump on your various "enemies" when they advertise for MUCH less putrescent groups than this, but you "congratulate" these scum advertisers for carrying all these crooks?

OK, what's up with this? There's some spectacular double-standard being displayed here right now.

 

[The Dude]

WTF are you talking about? I haven't mentioned this here or ANYWHERE else. And if you bothered to get your reading glasses on you'll see I was pointing out that the Ecogra seals are bogusly placed - whether by the apparent "accident" or design. Get a life, Jetset.

OK, what's going on here? This portal I've never come across before is blatantly advertising the worst crooks out there - Windows, CASINO BAR, Crystal Palace, NETGAMING - and all the industry people, Bryan, Jetset etc, are turning a blind eye?? You're all quick enough to jump on your various "enemies" when they advertise for MUCH less putrescent groups than this, but you "congratulate" these scum advertisers for carrying all these crooks?

OK, what's up with this? There's some spectacular double-standard being displayed here right now.

Take a chill pill Caruso. There are no blind eyes here. These issues are being addressed.

 

[jetset]

If anyone needs to get a life - and perhaps a more balanced outlook too - it is yourself, Caruso.

What's happening here is that you have maliciously seized upon a webmastering screw-up at CC which has no doubt deeply embarrassed eCOGRA. You did that with the express purpose of deepening that embarrassment imo. This bona fide error has also been splashed over at WOL and probably at Sucks too by another individual with an axe to grind.

And in your determination to exacerbate the situation you also posted here in a thread which deals with the laudable efforts of CC to curb the intimidatory tactics of the D o J. https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

If you have a problem with the casinos listed at CC then contact the owner and sort it out with him. Oh, I forgot - you never have time to do anything but shout from the sidelines.

OK, "Meister I'm retiring to my corner, and apologies for posting after your "cool it" post above - this sort of unnecessary malice just gets to me.

 

[Casino City]

I just became aware of the issue on our site with respect to eCOGRA about a half hour ago, and it has now been corrected. I feel as though I have a lot of egg on my face right now because of this mistake. We generate our pages about individual casinos, and we messed up in the code. We had it right, but had commented it out so we could migrate other changes to our website without removing the code. When we removed the comments to make it live, the result was that the seal was placed on every page, rather than conditionally on the right pages. .

The fact that it went up on the Windows casino site is even worse. We've been troubled that this disreputible casino is so high on the rankings, because it shouldn't be recommended to anyone, and the high traffic ranking serves as an implicit recommendation - which is the last thing we wanted to do. We had decided the right resolution was to award a skull and crossbones to selected casinos, and windows casino was going to be the very first one to receive this distinction from us.

 

[Sorcerak]

Hmm I wouldn't mind a Ferrari Modena...

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[chucho]

I just became aware of the issue on our site with respect to eCOGRA about a half hour ago, and it has now been corrected. I feel as though I have a lot of egg on my face right now because of this mistake. We generate our pages about individual casinos, and we messed up in the code. We had it right, but had commented it out so we could migrate other changes to our website without removing the code. When we removed the comments to make it live, the result was that the seal was placed on every page, rather than conditionally on the right pages. .

The fact that it went up on the Windows casino site is even worse. We've been troubled that this disreputible casino is so high on the rankings, because it shouldn't be recommended to anyone, and the high traffic ranking serves as an implicit recommendation - which is the last thing we wanted to do. We had decided the right resolution was to award a skull and crossbones to selected casinos, and windows casino was going to be the very first one to receive this distinction from us.

To Casino City: So am I to assume that you have removed Windows casino from your website correct? After all, you said yourself that they are a "disreputable casino" I did not take to the time to go through all the casinos you promote but I did notice that you still have Crystal Palace, Cleopatras and Net Gaming so I take it that you feel that these casinos are "reputable?" And these are all eCOGRA approved casinos? You have to be kidding me. I think that eCORGA must stand for "Entering Casino Only Guarantees Rude Awakening." Your site is criminal in my opinion. You promote casinos that no one could ever win at, Oyster Gaming, or would ever get paid at, Crystal Palace, Cleopatras etc. I am sure that a lot of people that do not know any better will get robbed by these casinos through your site and that makes you scum. How do you defend promoting these casinos that, beyond a reasonable doubt, are nothing more than a wishing well.

 

[The Dude]

I am sure that a lot of people that do not know any better will get robbed by these casinos through your site and that makes you scum.

Please chill Chucho.

Understandably Casino City is a portal that focuses primarily on listing casinos in numerous categories, and it would be less than perfect if it were to exclude the rogue-like casinos. I have suggested killing the links - or as Casino City has posted here - they will be posting warning logos/messages, etc.

Let's approach this constructively instead of getting our panties and boxers all tied in knots. There is a lot of good happening here that is being overshadowed by things that can be corrected.

 

[caruso]

To Casino City: So am I to assume that you have removed Windows casino from your website correct?

What do you think? Go and have a look.

If anyone can actually take the time to read the title I chose, you might note "...and CLAIMING them as Ecogra certified", ie. a BOGUS claim to certification, NOT a claim to bogus certification. Yes, I have serious issues with the Ecogra claims to verify software, but this is not the issue here. The issue is - or rather, was - the claim to a seal they did not have any right to. That was a mistake: fair enough.

Now please read the FIRST bit of my title: "Casino City advertising for Windows".

This portal is advertising for the worst casinos out there:

Windows: Disreputable for a long time; they've been invoking "fraud" accusations against anyone with the temerity to cash out a decent win for years.

Casino Bar (for Christ's sake): Proved cheating by Michael Shakelford two years ago. Tried to pull a lawsuit on him and failed.

NetGaming: Again, proven cheats by MS.

Crystal Palace: Managed by Warren Cloud, who enjoys telling Bryan to "f*** off" and the worst RTG operator out there, worse than Friedmann. Straight no-payers.

Repeat: this portal, Casino City, is knowingly advertising for the WORST crooks out there.

What is the webmaster response? Oh, they should be "congratulated" for taking a stance against US regulatory constraints, with a view to setting a precedent and opening the doors to greater online gambling freedom in the US.

FREEDOM FOR WHAT??

Freedom for this ripoff portal "CasinoCity" to continue to advertise for these rogue joints? Freedom for them to be able to continue using their "reputability" to send more and more players to these pond scum to be stolen from and cheated, as a result of a potentially more lenient US attitude?? Freedom to go on raking in the affilaite cash from those misinformed players directed to these rogue joints??

Is this the "freedom" you people seek?? What about the PLAYERS in all this? Do they actually count for anything at all, or is all this "player protection" stuff just lip-service to the Mighty Dollar?

This is about nothing other than money, money, money. Shame on EVERY SINGLE ONE of you for endorsing this. Portals who advertise rogue casinos are AS BAD AS THE CASINOS THEMSELVES.

I hope the players stand up and take note. This shit has got to stop.

CASINO CITY: HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY ADVERTISING FOR CASINOS ESTABLISHED AS ROGUES FOR UP TO MORE THAN TWO YEARS?

 

[Casino City]

Chuco:

The fact that a casino is listed in our directory does not mean that we promote it. It merely means that it is an online gaming site. We have a relationship with only a very small minority of the casinos listed in our directory. It is pure objective editorial content not influenced in any way by whether there is a relationship or not. I've created a firm barrier between those involved in sales in our organization and those involved in content, and the sales organization knows I will say no to any attempt to interfere with that editorial independence. Yesterday we added to our editorial content by indicating casinos that have received the eCOGRA seal, and as I discussed in my prior post, there was a bug on that front that was fixed literally within minutes of our becoming aware of the problem.

In terms of our planned actions with the Windows casino, no, we do not plan to remove it from our site. If we did that, then our directory would not be complete, and someone who was looking to find windows casino would just think it was missing from our directory. HOWEVER, what we had already planned to do, and what will be implemented within a day or two, is that we will mark Windows casino with a skull and crossbones, and remove the play link both from any lists of casinos on which it appears and on our page on the windows casino. Our view is that this will be much more effective in terms of letting players know this casino should be avoided than if we merely removed the listings.

 

[m249a]

Taking on the DOJ is a very gutsy move. I wish them well, but until we see widespread media coverage of this, and more importantly public support of their suit, I'm afraid this will wither and die quickly. Good luck guy's, if we can view porn without any reasonable restrictions then we should be able to view casino add's too.

 

[Casino City]

Chuo:

When I posted my last reply, you had not yet posted your list of other casinos. Thank you for providing a list of specific casinos you believe should be top candidates to recieve the skull and crossbones we will soon be adding to appropriate casinos on our site. We will make it a priority to examine that list, and will take appropriate action based on our review of information available to us. My presumption is that they will all receive skulls and crossbones, although obviously we will want to review publicly available material justifying that view for each of them individually.

Michael Corfman

 

[Casino City]

m429a:

The first amendment action will not whither and die. Once a suit is filed against the department of justice, you cannot just abandon it, and we would not have filed the suit without being committed to seeing it through to the end. Neither would our lawyers. We are somewhat puzzled that it has not received more widespread media attention yet, but that is really not relevant in terms of the merit of the case.

Michael Corfman

 

[dominique]

Support of such curageous action is not going to die because Caruso needs someone new to take potshots at.

I am less than amused by Caruso this time around. I am surprised to see Chucho chime in - Chucho - you have a better understanding of the industry than this.

Are you going to remove the numbers of people and places who don't meet your approval from the phonebook?

A directory is a directory.

Michael is very accomodating in agreeing to add some sort of warning, the phone book doesn't do that.

 

[amandajm]

Blimey Jetset.

I get my ass kicked at Sucks quarterly or so for defending your name etc against what I consider disproportionate views.

Just have it right Jetter eh? There is no post about this from me at Sucks. The guy asked for opinion so i looked around at his site first ~ i had it marked as a portal that pushes rogues in my mind anyway. Perfect opportunity to pull up and be me.

Me? I have been, and always will be ANTI rogue casino, PRO define the definition of rogue casino, PRO the removal of obvious rogue casinos from gambling portals on the WWW and PRO the player advocates and/or dispute resolution service providers.. Directories also thinking about it I have a view upon. Just have a directory of quality operations. Damn the rest right? Thats my "agenda" if you insist.

Havit right.

Ecogra is slightly different obviously and you have rightfully sung Carusos praises for being like a pitbull when ready. Now you just disagree with him ~ you always knew to do so is hard work.

Anyways, IF you are right about Ecogra then why lose yoir patience?

Peace.

 

[Casino City]

Well, we were able to get a partial implementation of the new skull and crossbones feature in our directory up and working today. If you look at the page Link Removed (invalid URL) you will see that there is a skull and crossbones next to windows casino, and also that the play link from its listing takes you to the detail page rather than to the casino itself as is the case for other listings.

On the detail page for Windows Casino, you will also see that we have added a warning (skull and crossbones will be placed next to the warning next week), and we have removed the invitation to play from below the screenshot of the casino home page that is present for other properties.

Next week we will fix it so that the skull and crossbones also appear next to lists resulting from our search facility and various other places where we have not yet implemented this identification for such properties. We will also begin the process of expanding the list of properties marked this way. We'll get all of the really bad casinos yet! :axeman2:

 

[caruso]

I acknowledge the remedial acion taken, and I thank Michael for the swift Email response he sent me. He comes across as a fair sort of fellow, which is why I find things perplexing here.

The "directory" argument doesn't hold much water: what is the purpose of a directory of rubbish? Don't you want a quality directory? The best way to deal with these places is NOT to carry them - and you'll have the benefit of a better directory that won't be sending players to rogues. As of now you have a good / crap directory, and you're sending players to the wrong places. Casino directory entries should be based on merit, not on the fact that they happen to be just another example of the commodity in question!

I also find the affiliation with Crystal Palace bizarre - that IS clearly an affiliate link on the Windows page - take a look at my screenshot. You seem pally with Bryan, so I can't believe you don't know about Cloud and his operations.

Again, thanks for taking the remedial action, but I have to say that as someone attempting to take on the DOJ you need to do an awful lot of house-cleaning. You have a packet of skeletons in your closet and I think you'd be best served looking a bit cleaner. At least, I know I would. Business associations with Cloud / Friedmann you can well do without.

 

[Macgyver]

Apart from the Crystal Palace affiliation question, here's my 2 cents ...

I semi-regularly update a casino directory for another site. The site does it have its own "Blacklist" section which is marked (similar to the skull and crossbones) for the appropriate casinos in the directory.

In my opinion, a directory is there to give as much information as possible. Yes, that means even the casinos I personally stay away from (ones on here and ones marked as "Blacklist"). But I believe that every player should have their own responsibility to research before they deposit their hard-earned money into a place.

Some places people have complained about on here I've played at with no problem. If I had gotten screwed there, however, it would have been my fault for not doing enough proper research. Not a directory's fault for listing them.

In short, I agree with Casino City. A directory is simply there for information and at least they're making the effort to mark bad casinos as they find them.

 

[chucho]

Here is a question for you then Casino City. You have banner ad's for Crystal Palace and are at the same time going to have a skull and crossbones next to the listing? It is one thing to list all the casinos, good or bad, but in my opinion it is bad to have a link to a rouge casino and not warn people about it first. Bet2Gamble does this, casino meister has links for Crystal Palace, in his rouge section. So now, after so many years and after so many players clicked on your rouge casino links and got screwed, you are going to put up warning signs. Better late than never, I guess. Many people, espically new players, will go to your site and would thing that all the casinos are good seing as they are on your list. Why should they assume that some of them are bad? So these poor suckers go to your site which looks reputable, browse some casinos and then pick one. I would pick Mad Bonus casinos as they have such great bonuses and they are on Casino City's site so they must be ok, otherwise why would they list them. I don't know, I am a new player so why would I think that Mad Bonus casino is bad? So the newbie goes to play at Mad Bonus, gets his deposit and mad bonus wiped out in 5 minutes flat. But the Mad Bonus operators and the Casino City operators made a few buck so they are happy, even if they can't sleep at night.

 

[jetset]

Chuo:

When I posted my last reply, you had not yet posted your list of other casinos. Thank you for providing a list of specific casinos you believe should be top candidates to recieve the skull and crossbones we will soon be adding to appropriate casinos on our site. We will make it a priority to examine that list, and will take appropriate action based on our review of information available to us. My presumption is that they will all receive skulls and crossbones, although obviously we will want to review publicly available material justifying that view for each of them individually.

Michael Corfman

It is a pity that we have again been subjected to hissy fits, judgmental portal accusations and a general departure down the low road when it is clear that Casino City is prepared to do something about this situation.

Despite Caruso's rather grudging acknowledgement of this and his apparent continued determination to drive a wedge between the different categories of members on this board it seems that good things can flow from it.

I would suggest that the way to approach this is not through emotional and abusive outbursts, but to email Michael Corfman with the casinos on his directory with which members have experienced problems, and ideally furnish him with chapter and verse where this is possible. Even links (for example the Casino Bar expose on the Wiz's site) would add weight.

The proof will be where CC goes with it from there - I'm sure there will be a number of us monitoring that.

Regarding the DoJ action - let's at least give credit where it is due for a gutsy and costly initiative to challenge what appears to be a reprehensible intimidatory practice against the Constitutional rights of the US media and search engine sites.

This will establish an important legal precedent in my view and it will therefore evoke wider interest than this industry.

Contrary to the negative views expressed elsewhere in this thread I do not think this will be allowed to die - the calibre of the legal eagles that CC has engaged will already be giving the DoJ folks pause for thought, and I am sure once the case gathers momentum it will receive widespread coverage.

 

[Freudian]

The problem with arguing that Windows, Casino Bar etc should be included in a casino directory for completeness sake is this:

They are not casinos. They are criminals pretending to be casinos. That Casino City recently have decided to introduce a warning after taking advertising money from these criminals for years does not make Casinocity ok. If you take money for sending players to criminal casinos, you are scum. Caruso illustrated this perfectly with the pic with the banner for Crystal Palace.

 

[Vesuvio]

Why attack Caruso, Chucho and others for pointing out that Casino City is promoting and making money from clear rogues. I don't see why they should apologise for being on the side of players.

It's not as if the website is set up as a very basic automatic directory of the type you find thousands of on the internet. Each link has clearly been set up individually with a picture, details & presumably an agreement with the casino in question to earn money when someone clicks on the link.

I don't see why we should have to do Casino City's work for them and e-mail about rogue casinos. As they're earning money from this the very least they could do is check through the basic lists of rogue casinos here and elsewhere and do a quick google of the casino in question.

Fair enough if they're taking legal action that'll help portal owners, but to be honest I'm not sure the world would be a worse place without adverts for on-line casinos.

p.s. ok, as you asked, how about casino1x2.com as one to add the skull and crossbones too.

 

[Vesuvio]

Frightening stuff!

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Actually, the site could be useful as a way of quickly finding rogue casinos...

 

[jetset]

Why attack Caruso, Chucho and others for pointing out that Casino City is promoting and making money from clear rogues. I don't see why they should apologise for being on the side of players.

It's not as if the website is set up as a very basic automatic directory of the type you find thousands of on the internet. Each link has clearly been set up individually with a picture, details & presumably an agreement with the casino in question to earn money when someone clicks on the link.

I don't see why we should have to do Casino City's work for them and e-mail about rogue casinos. As they're earning money from this the very least they could do is check through the basic lists of rogue casinos here and elsewhere and do a quick google of the casino in question.

Fair enough if they're taking legal action that'll help portal owners, but to be honest I'm not sure the world would be a worse place without adverts for on-line casinos.

p.s. ok, as you asked, how about casino1x2.com as one to add the skull and crossbones too.

I am pointing out that emotional and abusive posts unaccompanied by constructive activity may make you feel better as an individual but do little to improve this situation. This is a portal owner who claims that he is prepared to cooperate in a way that will make for a safer directory. That will be easily monitored.

I see have no difficulty in trying to help find positive solutions by lending a hand in identifying rogue casinos in an objective manner. I prefer to take the constructive approach and try to remedy what's wrong instead of simply jumping to conclusions and yelling from the bleachers.

The choice is yours - do something positive or just make a noise.

 

[Vesuvio]

The choice is yours - do something positive or just make a noise.

Well, it seems to me that Caruso and others making a noise have done something positive in putting pressure on a portal owner to rethink his strategy. Yes, constructive advice can work at times, but publicly exposing malpractice comes first and tends to be more effective.

 

[amandajm]

You are struggling Jetset.

You carry on with your emotional outbursts and namecalling to point out the nonsensical nature of emotional outburst and namecalling.

You can start the task of telling about 3 million gambling websites in private who is rogue.

When you are half way through let me know.

Until then i'll be using the messageboards thanks.

 

[caruso]

It's good to see other players taking a responsible attitude here. The point that rogue "casinos" are not casinos at all by definition is well made - I hadn't thought of that angle and it's absolutely correct.

The issue here remains The Mighty Dollar. Portals and industry boys alike are salivating so much over the prospect of a successful precedent being set at no cost to themselves that this rogue-filled "directory" is being subjected to The Blind Eye treatment. This one Golden Goose which must not be killed.

Again I say: freedom to advertise, gamble and whatever else in the US is not acceptable at ANY price. If the price is freedom to additionally send those admittedly silly, uninformed players - who SHOULD do their research but don't - to crooks and con artists, then the price is too high, it shouldn't happen and I don't wish the action any success.

If anyone should be taking on the DOJ it should be the likes of Bryan, G2B or any other reasonably high-profile portal owner with pretty much unimpeacheable sites. It should NOT be those portals listing and sending players to every rogue casino under the sun - and THOSE portals still remain in need of being rooted out and exposed. In that regard, this episode has certainly had a serendipitous side-effect: that the US public may ultimately be opened up to fleecing on an unprecedented scale with legalization of all aspects of online gambling doesn't concern me much; the rooting out of portals carrying rogue "casinos" certainly does.

 

[chucho]

Lets make some analogys here. Will I deposit at Crystal Palace even if they chenge their ways and start paying players, no. Will I let someone who molested my child be alone with him or her if after many years he has been rehabilated, no. Will I use Casino City even if they put warnings on all the bad casinos on their list and stop taking money from crimimal orgnizartiions, no.

 

[lanidar]

Lets make some analogys here. Will I deposit at Crystal Palace even if they chenge their ways and start paying players, no. Will I let someone who molested my child be alone with him or her if after many years he has been rehabilated, no. Will I use Casino City even if they put warnings on all the bad casinos on their list and stop taking money from crimimal orgnizartiions, no.

I don't think that there is ANYONE that can express themselves as well as you can! :notworthy

 

[bethug]

casino city to me is a big joke, the only thing is joel and caruso need to jump on thiscasinosucks, videopokerjunkie and other portols that put of bad casinos. The differnce is they will not say nothing cause there buddies run the sites.

 

[Sodax77]

The choice is yours - do something positive or just make a noise.

Hmm.. I found Casinomeister site first. Maybe few years ago. And i believe it is good thing. But just explore thousands and thousands gambling forums, and portals, etc, and you see, that there is a lot of players / webmasters, who don't know/care anything about Casinomeister, eCogra, Safebet, Warren Cloud, Rogue casinos, Reputable casinos, good and bad casinos, managers, etc, etc...

And sorry that i didn't read whole topic, but sometimes it is good to keep some noise, than keep silence.

And finally, i know a lot of sites, portals, etc (like many here), what are full of BS (i.e misleading/fake information, links to rogue casino, etc)

And this is not about some Casino City site... i don't actually care. And like somebody say about phonebook or something... if i use our local Phonebook, of course there is criminals, "good people", anything, but it is not our Phone company's job to call everyone, and ask about their history or backround. lol.

So Caruso made good post. And this Casino City can continue their way, Windows casino can continue their way, And many many others can do what they doing, BUT WE CAN keep some noise, that people hear!
Example: in 6 years in Casinomeister, WE, and many, many others has found those rogues manager, casinos, etc... and i think, it is good thing.

my @#& 2 cents

 

[caruso]

(Off topic.

casino city to me is a big joke, the only thing is joel and caruso need to jump on thiscasinosucks, videopokerjunkie and other portols that put of bad casinos. The differnce is they will not say nothing cause there buddies run the sites.

Damian, I've already told Cindy and Nick what I think about their Grand Banks stance - if you'd read the thread at Sucks you'd know that. I've told Cindy what I think about Gambling Federation. There's no bias from my end. At the same time, it's not unreasonable for me to treat with respect somebody who collects a large debt for me.)

 

[Casino City]

Given all of the controversy here, I think I will just state our philosophy clearly and also enumerate some of what we are doing.

1. Our goal is to list all online gaming sites in the world be they good, bad, or ugly, and to provide as much objective information about them as we are able. That philosophy has been followed for our land-based casino directory for years, and is being followed in our new online casino directory launched a few months ago. There are a large number of people who find this approach useful - it results in our constently having seven figure visit counts each month.

2. Listing a gaming site on casino city does not mean we have a relationship or benefit from listing the gaming site. In fact, we only have relationships with about 1% of the gaming properties listed on our site. The other 99% provide us with no economic benefit no matter how many players they sign up.

3. We are a technically sophisticated company, and the presence of things like a screen shot on the page about a property is not the result of our making a decision to feature that property in any way. In fact, these pictures are automatically created for every online gaming site by an application program with no human interaction at all in the process.

4. We are a research firm by nature, and publish our findings on the web, and also in print form. Casino City Press is the largest publisher of gaming industry information in the world. Those interested in rogue casinos and business relationships should find our site helpful in their research. One of our current projects is tracking down all online gaming sites, and determining as much as possible about owner relationships, software usage, etc. We belive this type of information is valuable, and it is at the heart of what we do as a business.

5. We do care about trying to provide information to players that would help them make intelligent choices about which online gaming sites to choose. That is why we sought out a relationship with eCOGRA where we could provide extra visibility to the casinos that met their certification criteria. That is also why we made a decision to implement our skull and crossbones treatment. Although I certainly accelerated our work on the skull and crossbones front in reaction to the eCOGRA snafu and the comments in this forum by perhaps a day or two, we had decided about a week ago that we needed to have a program in place so that players would not falsely interpret high ranking for endorsements of gaming sites that are not reputable. The actions we are taking are based on a philosophy established before this discussion took place.

6. I have and will continue to look for ideas about how we can do a better job on this and other forums. For example, based on conversations with Bryan Bailey, I realized that the plans I had for adding skull and crossbones to rogue sites did not go far enough. As a result of that discussion, we enhanced our plans so that the listing pages do not have direct links to any rogue gaming, and also removed the "play now" link from the detail pages for such gaming sites. Similiarly, we will pay special attention to the casinos that have been identified as having issues on this discussion thread.

7. Certainly I prefer calmer comments that are not so accusatory in nature, but I have and will listen to all comments that are made, because oftentimes there are good ideas expressed even when the presentation is not so pleasant. I have, and will continue to post actions we take related to the discussions on this thread so that those who have posted comments will know our response. Please appreciate, however, that development efforts can take time, and so responses won't always be immediate.

8. I agree that it is our responsibility to research and track down rogue casinos, and to not rely on this forum for that information. However, that is a complicated process, as I'm sure you all realize, and one that is impossible to do as well as we all wish were possible. There is a lot of conflicting information by parties with vested interests, so it will always be the case that we will benefit from anyone who points out a gaming site that has problems, and at the same time provides credible evidence from parties that we are in a position to determine deserve our trust.

 

[amandajm]

casino city to me is a big joke, the only thing is joel and caruso need to jump on thiscasinosucks, videopokerjunkie and other portols that put of bad casinos. The differnce is they will not say nothing cause there buddies run the sites.

You just quit shitting me ~ you had your own forum there with YOUR BUDDIES while I was telling them guys exactly what i thought about boog casinos.

Have it right.

It's about time you turned on me anyhow. I think i'm the last.

That I have right.

 

[bethug]

joely not turning on no one, i dont have to agree with everything that u do. but i do repect u. now there some people i just way to greedy for me and they know who they are

i cant support a portal that our right promotes bad casinos or portals that support fix casinos.

 

[spybarbie]

Well, Lanidar is "on top of the world" cuz he/she seems to know proper English

I don't think that there is ANYONE that can express themselves as well as you can! :notworthy

Lanidar, wherever you are ... there's a world outside and there are more languages than your language. Just stop to make fun at people who didn't grow up with English, okay?!

I really didn't wanna post in here anymore but this stuff makes me sick! Just go and try to learn another language ... then you'll know how hard it is, SICKO!

 

[amandajm]

Righteo D , peace, though I ain't ever gonna be happy about you telling me I should speak up and tell a portal if i don't like a casino or 3 they push.

Aside from threatening to knock someone out I think I have said plenty enough about that subject over many moons.

 

[caruso]

Lanidar wasn't being remotely sarcastic - he was paying his friend an honest compliment.

Any chance of staying on-topic here?

Our goal is to list all online gaming sites in the world be they good, bad, or ugly, and to provide as much objective information about them as we are able...we are a research firm by nature, and publish our findings on the webwe do care about trying to provide information to players that would help them make intelligent choices about which online gaming sites to choose For example, based on conversations with Bryan Bailey, I realized that the plans I had for adding skull and crossbones to rogue sites did not go far enough.

The problem in principle is that you appear to be an established portal but you have the casino knowledge of a complete beginner. If your goal is to provide objective information you have clearly failed in your goal. What findings do you publish? You didnt know that Casino Bar was proven rigged TWO years ago?? Didnt Bryan ever tell you that? Crystal Palace? Net Gaming? Where are the warnings at the very least?? Some of this stuff has been big, big news you never even heard of it?

I agree that it is our responsibility to research and track down rogue casinos, and to not rely on this forum for that information. However, that is a complicated process.

Youre taking on the DOJ, and yet you consider that researching casinos you list complicated? Any player with a few months experience can do this and they do, as evidenced by the newbie players here who get a handle on things pretty swiftly. Portals should be WAY ahead of this, and you dont seem to have left the starting blocks.

I find this whole thing extremely bizarre. You appear to know very, very little about the casino scene, which is inexcuseable for ANY portal - let alone one in the position you've put yourself in.

 

[amandajm]

Seconded.

Additionally. I have gambled for 25 years in England. Arcades, Fruit machines, Pubs, Clubs and Bookies.

I do not have to research who owns the machines or bookie shop to investigate whether i'll get paid.

The idea is to win money. The idea is the same for gambler and layer. I pay or you pay.

To gamble in a casino online one must avoid being naive and "investigate".

That is an industry problem that all within the industry "Representing" should be tackling. A firm like casino city who now wish to "Represent" have some way to go to garner anything like the belief I myself place in certain "industry representatives".

Without paying out players there is no industry. It's about time the rogues were gone no?

Where have you been Casino City? Where on earth have you been? Non payment is no small beans, this is no joke thing you are dealing with.

 

[jetset]

Well, it seems to me that Caruso and others making a noise have done something positive in putting pressure on a portal owner to rethink his strategy. Yes, constructive advice can work at times, but publicly exposing malpractice comes first and tends to be more effective.

We are talking about two different things if that is your view. I am not against exposing malpractice - I do it myself, and have always defended the value of message boards used in a responsible manner.

But I am against this miserable culture that seems to me to be manifested here of always assuming the worst, making negative and unsubstantiated judgmental calls, attacking those like CC who are trying to do the right thing, rarely seeing both sides of an issue and encouraging this unhealthy "us and them" attitude by insulting and frequently inaccurate pejorative references to portalmasters and others who are a part of this industry and deplore malpractice and dishonesty.

Part of a constructive way forward imo is to work with those who are sincerely trying to improve things, and against those that are not shaping up.

One poster was against rendering assistance in identifying rogue casinos a few posts back. How is that helping? In preference to posts like "XXXX is a rogue" and doing nothing further surely it would be better to take a few moments to assemble the reasons for the accusation and perhaps a link in support of it, and forward it to (in this case) CC? The time for accusations and insult is if that is not acted upon, not the moment the guy makes an appearance here.

By demanding the deletion of every casino that is accused of bad behaviour from directories like CC do you stop those sites appearing elsewhere, nurtured by webmasters with less concern? I believe it is better to give the player the entire picture on prominent portals together with cautionary information as appropriate identifying with good cause bum casinos and linking those warnings to specific information that tells the non-fora visiting player this is not some casual observation.

We need to encourage those portal owners who want to do things in a fair and honest manner, not chase them away shaking their heads.

I support the provision of detail and links to specific complaints to give credibility to an accusation, because even on this board (and there can be few who genuinely doubt the 'Meister's integrity) we occasionally have fights about rogue casino decisions.

I do not agree with the proposition that the noise level and discourtesy of some of the posts here has brought about CC's change of strategy as I think Vesuvio has phrased it, and a study of the CC activity here and elsewhere shows this, I believe.

The way I see this is that the guy (please read his posts again) came here prepared to enter into a dialogue and attend to the rogues on his site by taking down links to the casinos involved and identifying those where there was evidence of bad or dishonest conduct. Some of you have responded to this by showering him with insults, and in one case suggesting that helping to identify known rogues to him (or any other portalmaster for that matter) is not something experienced players should do.

However, if those of you who support the extreme nature of some of these posts wish to continue believing that this is an appropriate way to treat people who want to do the right thing in this area then so be it. It is your right to voice an opinion, as it is mine to disagree and even deplore it.

But imo you do not resolve problems in this way, or by making the negative assumption that everyone has an ulterior motive in this industry and should be ridiculed or run out of town.

I am going to disregard the quite extraordinary attitude displayed by Caruso's posts regarding the DoJ challenge and online gambling advertising in general, as so bereft of vision and reason that there is little to be gained in trying to debate it.