Question Can slots on individual accounts be fixed not to pay out?

[dionysus]

i have to leave now but will be back on later to continue this great learning exercise with you Nifty

The point, as far as I know, about coming into CM for information, isn't about debating what most people here consider to be basic common sense; that being, the vast majority of casinos aren't rigged. There's no reason for them to be - they already HAVE the house edge. Are there shady operations? Of course. So the simple solution? Don't play at them. There's untold thousands upon thousands of pages and threads here about good reliable, honest casinos. If you don't want to believe them, and the members here who have scoured them, absorbed them, tried the casinos, given and and received feedback and have a GOOD understanding of the mechanics, know and speak to programmers, developers, have personal relationships with managers and owners, that's your prerogative. But then, if you AREN'T here for the advice and suggestions of those in the know, well, that's fine and dandy too but then why are you here? The forum is an old, well-respected font of information and resources - not some two-bit online panel discussion full of tin-foil hatters, disgruntled players and casino virgins...at least for long anyway.

As for Nifty finding you definitions of odds and probabilities, do your own legwork. Finding the odds on roulette is a cake-walk; probability too. And no, I'm not rising to the bait, and finding it for you either.

It all comes down to a VERY basic philosophy - if you are convinced the casino is cheating you DON'T PLAY THERE. Problem solved.

 

[chuchu59]

Nifty should i believe everything everyone writes on the internet or in a forum or should i ask more and more questions and be involved in more and more discussions, (this is what i thiought forums were for) If as you suggest i should just take what everyone suggest and be happy with that and not make any further comment then mayby the tin hat should come your way.

Of course you are free to voice your opinion but you will encounter adverse comments when you state them in an accusatory tone. Most members here are reasonably happy with the online gaming industry as it is and believe that though there is no regulation as yet the more popular software brands can be trusted. You can feel aggrieved especially after a very bad run but first you must try to compare things with land-based casinos. Why would results indicate that online games are more rigged than land-based ones? The croupier spins the roulette wheel and by the same token the random number generator yields a random result online. There have been crooked software in the past(name of which I have forgotten) but I do believe brands like Microgaming, Netent, Playtech, Realtime Gaming and Wagerlogic are largely fair though I am at times frustrated by awful streaks which are largely countered by awesome streaks later. We can debate all day but neither side can prove itself to be totally correct.

 

[KasinoKing]

Nifty can you tell me your interpretation of what the difference between odds and probability are please. How are they related/ how are they not related

Ah... now we are moving on to the hot topic of the "gamblers fallacy" - i.e. the thing which makes MANY players believe that it IS possible to beat Roulette (including myself about 20 years ago! )

If we're going to get into that discussion, a new thread would be a good idea IMHO.

KK

 

[Nifty29]

No not at all, you were the one who bought up about odds all being the same, no matter what the bet size or weather or not you have just cashed out. So odds and or probability are relevant. The whole gambling world runs on this theroy so how is it not relevent or did google not find the anwser for you fast enough.

i have to leave now but will be back on later to continue this great learning exercise with you Nifty

Given you are now resorting to personal insults...presumably because you do not understand about how casino games operate, including things such as house edge (i.e. the PROBABILITY of the outcome VS the ODDS offered by the game...offering 36/1 on a 37/1 chance creates a HOUSE EDGE)....I will not be debating anything with you. I have better things to do.

Have fun playing your rigged roulette, and good luck convincing everyone that it IS rigged

 

[catapultaudio]

Nifty can you tell me your interpretation of what the difference between odds and probability are please. How are they related/ how are they not related

I have to agree with Nifty here I don't see what any of this has to do with odds and probability, or why you would ask this question? Nobody is being funny with you or trying to be rude or offensive, they only want to try and help you realise how absurd what you are suggesting is, but despite all attempts it seems you believe the games are rigged against you so strongly that you cannot accept, interpret or understand any evidence to the contrary... with this in mind, surely you MUST understand why people cannot fathom any reason you would continue to play these games, when you are so convinced it is biased against you?

The pure fact of the matter is that if the game did react to you cashing out in the way that you describe then it would be completely unfair - rigged - so it is simply not possible to state you do not believe the game is rigged however you do wonder if it turns against you after you cash out.. they are one and the same, and that seems really obvious to me ...

I will say this though - I can understand how somebody would reach such a conclusion! Because in gambling, seriously "unlikely" things happen all the time. It happens in any other area of life too, "sods law" I believe is a common term I find myself muttering far too often to be "normal", yet it happens for some reason .. I created a thread just a couple of days ago regarding the fact I had turned a 32p bonus into over £150 .. hell, that's enough to make me think the games are rigged in my favour !! But sure enough it really did happen, and plenty of people posted replies of similar experiences they had encountered themselves.

On a final note, I'm a software developer myself, and whilst i have never created a casino game, I did make some gambling related software for sportingbet a whilst back, during the last world cup infact - and I can absolutely guarantee you that brief did not contain any requests for backdoors or unfair bias against players. The rules of the game were clearly stated and those rules dictated the houses advantage over players of the game, and that advantage ensured sportingbet a profit from hosting that game. It really is as simple as that!

Please consider also the number of people in that chain of command too, were a brief for a game to come down such a chain including a request for an unfair system of stealing from players based on when they last cashed out, factoring in their lifetime spend at the casino .. . I mean damn, the logistics of creating it would be crazy for a start, but you can bet your life one of those developers, managers, customer relations personnel, etcetc, would be talking about it on a forum someplace... All this has been said before, but please just think it through a little more.... and if, after that, you still just cannot believe these games are RANDOM and work exactly as they are supposed to, PLEASE forget on-line gambling and find yourself a hobby that you can trust and enjoy - for your own sake!

 

[bigjohn]

I really hate chiming into this thread again but.... Why is it that when someone poses such a question about a single personal experience they may or may not have had the reaction is that surely they must believe all games are rigged all the time? So, here's your tin-foil hat, goodbye!

To 14man, go with your gut instinct. If you think a certain establishment is cheating you, don't play there. There are plenty of examples on these boards demonstrating the utter flaccidness of many of the licensing bodies so relying on them to police all the games is pointless.

 

[Nifty29]

I really hate chiming into this thread again but.... Why is it that when someone poses such a question about a single personal experience they may or may not have had the reaction is that surely they must believe all games are rigged all the time? So, here's your tin-foil hat, goodbye!

To 14man, go with your gut instinct. If you think a certain establishment is cheating you, don't play there. There are plenty of examples on these boards demonstrating the utter flaccidness of many of the licensing bodies so relying on them to police all the games is pointless.

If he was talking about a single personal experience.....but he was not.

He's stating that over 5-6 years playing online he has "noticed" that after you cashout, you always lose. Worse than that, the more you play on, the more you lose. I mean, that should never happen, right? One should expect to win most of the time and lose occasionally.

He referred to one single experience (his insistence that the casinos somehow manipulate his results according to recent cashouts or the phase of the moon or whatever was NOT based solely on that experience), and in the case he described he was in overall PROFIT. As I said, he sees nothing wrong with turning $500 into $4500, but calls "rigged" when he loses the subsequent $3200 in deposits (and he admits he was ahead during those deposits too). As if that wasn't enough, he claims "rigged" because the 10 bets of $100 he made on a 37/1 chance didn't hit, and because they were "next to his numbers mostly". Obviously, he doesn't understand about odds and probabilities, otherwise he would accept without question losing 10 times taking a 37/1 bet.

Sorry, but myself and others were gentle with him initially, but when it becomes clear that he's here to peddle his own conspiracy theories and ignores all information and facts to the contrary, all bets are off IMO. I'm not interested in personal crap any more, so someone else can take over the pointless exercise of being patient and trying to educate the man.

As far as your statement about others accusing him of saying all games are rigged all the time.....common sense dictates that if a casino was going to underhanded enough to rig their roulette, then why would they make all their other games 100% fair? If one believes one table game is rigged, then surely they at least suspect the other games? Then again, anyone with common sense wouldn't keep playing a game that they even suspected was rigged.

 

[catapultaudio]

I really hate chiming into this thread again but.... Why is it that when someone poses such a question about a single personal experience they may or may not have had the reaction is that surely they must believe all games are rigged all the time? So, here's your tin-foil hat, goodbye!

I'm not saying the guy believes ALL games are rigged ALL the time, but if I understand correctly, he is trying to say he doesn't believe the game is rigged whilst simultaneously saying "...but I do think that the game starts playing unfairly after I have cashed out" .. which to me is him saying he believes THAT roulette game is rigged SOME of the time... I just don't see how you can say these two things are not mutually exclusive - seems ridiculous to me.

And my intention is not to be rude or offensive to 14man, but there sure is a hell of a lot more evidence the games are fair and random than there is they steal your money after you cash out... I'm a million percent certain that not one casino game by playtech/netent/mgs/wagerworks etc has any access to the host casinos lifetime financial records in order to make the necessary adjustments to RTP - infact just the suggestion is beyond ridiculous to me. I'd love to see 14man have an epiphany right here and realise the same but I do know its unlikely, but maybe, just maybe if enough people are honest with him instead of tip-toeing around the outrageously ridiculous suggestions hes made, he might realize eventually... you never know ..

 

[14 man]

Ok well i am back on here to eat humble pie, i played this morning and cashed out, i logged bask on again 2 hours later and cashed out again, So that throws all i said out the window, not really sure what to think now but just wanted to be fair and give all the story, good and bad.

 

[14 man]

Ah... now we are moving on to the hot topic of the "gamblers fallacy" - i.e. the thing which makes MANY players believe that it IS possible to beat Roulette (including myself about 20 years ago! )

If we're going to get into that discussion, a new thread would be a good idea IMHO.

KK

No KasinoKing i do not believe for one minute that there is any system in the world to beat roulette, i play it because it is meant to be completly random, it is a little ball flying around a wheel, not a hope in hell of telling where is is going to land. The reason i get suspicious is when you get a run of numbers beside you from a random number generator. If the numbers are all over the place and i lose i am all good with that becasue that is what the game is all about. But as i have posted above i was convinced that when you cash out you lose straight after untill you have deposited more back in, clearly i blew that theroy so my theroey of the ball landing beside me is deliberate is more than likely heading the same way.

 

[bigjohn]

My post was not necessarily aimed at anyone in particular (neither is this one) but, clearly, people who think they have been taken will keep on coming.

Might it be more constructive to spell out briefly what type of evidence would be required to be taken seriously.

I fully realize it is nobody's responsibility to do that but these types of threads always take a nasty turn, primarily IMO because the poster is automatically excused if he dares even think he may have been taken.

14man said things he should not have, I have said things I should not have.

I just think it would settle these threads quicker if someone said, "Go back, record your results from 10,000 spins and then present your evidence or you will not be taken seriously."

 

[14 man]

If he was talking about a single personal experience.....but he was not.

He's stating that over 5-6 years playing online he has "noticed" that after you cashout, you always lose. Worse than that, the more you play on, the more you lose. I mean, that should never happen, right? One should expect to win most of the time and lose occasionally.

He referred to one single experience (his insistence that the casinos somehow manipulate his results according to recent cashouts or the phase of the moon or whatever was NOT based solely on that experience), and in the case he described he was in overall PROFIT. As I said, he sees nothing wrong with turning $500 into $4500, but calls "rigged" when he loses the subsequent $3200 in deposits (and he admits he was ahead during those deposits too). As if that wasn't enough, he claims "rigged" because the 10 bets of $100 he made on a 37/1 chance didn't hit, and because they were "next to his numbers mostly". Obviously, he doesn't understand about odds and probabilities, otherwise he would accept without question losing 10 times taking a 37/1 bet.

Sorry, but myself and others were gentle with him initially, but when it becomes clear that he's here to peddle his own conspiracy theories and ignores all information and facts to the contrary, all bets are off IMO. I'm not interested in personal crap any more, so someone else can take over the pointless exercise of being patient and trying to educate the man.

As far as your statement about others accusing him of saying all games are rigged all the time.....common sense dictates that if a casino was going to underhanded enough to rig their roulette, then why would they make all their other games 100% fair? If one believes one table game is rigged, then surely they at least suspect the other games? Then again, anyone with common sense wouldn't keep playing a game that they even suspected was rigged.

NIfty i did not make any comment on any other games because i do not play them, i only play roulette. As i stated i would not have been worried at all if the numbers were spread all over, your right 37-1 of getting it is a risk. Surely i can be suspecious when 8 out of the 10 land beside me. This is not one game only, i have posted before of the excact same thing, So what is the probibility of the same thing happening multiple times. I have had a bad run on number 14, changed number only to have the excact same thing happen to the number that i changed to, i do not usualy complain due to the fact however remote i believe the chance of that happening randomly is , the truth is that there is still a chance. I get suspicious when it happens quite a few times though. So my main reason for commenting is to try and get a understanding of how i am guarenteed that the games are fair.
Why do i play,, because i have never said you cannot win, if your smart enough to pull out at the right time you can be up. All of these things contradict themselves a lot i know but it is so hard to just except it is all just bad luck when you have a run like this. I closed my other accounts and only play on ones that are listed here with a high rating to try and ensure that i get a fair game.
Things we need to remember about online gambling
1. I can not see the workings of the game and rely on the casino honesty
2. I still sruggle with the concept of the casino pays the watchdog to ensure fairness. If the watchdog is to hard on the casino then the casino can just choose to not use them,(I think this is right anyway)
3. I sent an email to ecogra a month or so ago and asked if they could explain why i should trust online casino's with the ecogra logo. I put quite a bit of effort into the letter and it was very detailed on my questions that i had. When i recieved a letter back from ecogra it only stated that the games are all audited for fairness and that i should just have a look at there results and it had some links on it to follow. The letter did not answer the questions that i put to them like does the Audit process actually audit payers results againt players bets or just a string of numbers provided by the casino. This was a genuine question as i did not know the answer. I clicked on the link and they did not work, its said the page was unavailable. I emailed back and asked for specific answers and let them know that links they provide do not work. I got the same generic email back, I did not respond and got the same generic email two more times. I figured i was not going to get any answeres form the watchdog. So that did not leave me with a great deal of confidence in the audit proccess. I understand that they would be very busy but if they want the puplic (who can not see them to believe them then more effort should be given in promoting there audit integrity).
4. I have raised this issue with the casinos direct, the only responce they can give me is that they are audited by external auditors. (the above did not give me any comfort in that responce). The only other reason they can give me to prove they are all fair is that they are listed on the stock exchange( There have been a lot of Dodgy companys on the stock exchange) So this gave me no comfort either.
So i carry on with not really knowing if all is fair or not, i just know that i can still win and have some fun sometimes. I am really just looking for some verification that all is fair and i am not playing a game that has some nigerian prince in a leopard skin Gbanger sitting at the other end telling me all is good as he counts his money laughing. I do appolagise for the google remark, was out of line.