Question Can casinos just decide not to pay you because the game was paying out too much?

[t4llek]

I think you guys underestimate how "crazy" some people can become while playing. A friend of mine works at a rather big Netent casino and at least a couple of times a month he tells me about ppl running €50-100 deposits up to €10k+. Usually they start out betting €1-2/spin and before you know it they bet €100 all or nothing bets. Obviously there are hundreds of ppl failing for everyone that succeeds.

To me, €20k in half an hour doesn't sound out of this world if the player just went on a sick heater and upping their bets.

ive run 20€ to 28k in a couple of hours at jackpotcity, and several times run 20 to 50 deposits to the 3 4 5k mark at other casinos, not that hard u just have to have the balls and of course the luck and i can assure that was the way that got my online balance on the positive side

 

[xxshepxx]

I detest this.

Casino's are very quick to 'verify' if the software is okay when a big win is involved.

I've played 1000's of spins on bust the bank without a bonus, try getting anyone to verify if thats alright, and they'll tell you, "That's gambling, some you win, some you lose"

Except they really don't expect you to win, as they are so shocked when you do that they will freeze account and run about after software providers to check if the games are okay.

sickening behaviour.

 

[chuchu59]

Hi All

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I was looking at another well known casino complaints forum and was astounded by one of the responses.

Somebody won near 20k on Starburst (How, I have no idea).

The casino in question seem to if I understand correctly have told this person that the game appeared to be paying out abnormally therefore they are looking into it so will not pay the withdrawal at this time.

I know they have terms etc in place for game abnormalities, but Starburst being so popular and Netent this really surprised me.

I just cannot imagine how angry I would be if I had been told that.. I have played slots that I feel abnormally take all your money and go hundreds of spins without any result. I doubt that would be investigated.

What are your thoughts?

They cannot deny your payout but they can delay it and check for abnormalities. Its a frequent occurence at land-based casinos especially when you hit a jackpot but unless you are found to have cheated they need to pay you ultimately. There is a common term 'malfunctions void all play' but I dont buy this reason for not paying out as malfunctioning could also work in favour of the casino and so long as its not the player's fault they need to pay. There was an issue at a Macau casino where one machine seemed to have paid out much more than it was designed to do and they didnt pay. If I recall correctly the courts forced the casino to pay up.

 

[Jannat]

If there was a "glitch" in the game, Netent can refuse to payout if I remember correctly. It is in the terms and conditions. I know it sucks but that is how I remember it.

If there was no glitch and he just happened be lucky, he should be paid.

Vera and John are accredited and I do not believe they would investigate these things without plausible clause.

 

[Casino2014man]

This particular case isn't Vera and John, but is an accredited casino.

The player has been waiting since feb 23rd!

 

[Jannat]

This particular case isn't Vera and John, but is an accredited casino.

The player has been waiting since feb 23rd!

Oh my bad. I understood it was Vera and John.

Well I hope he gets his money.

 

[spintee]

This particular case isn't Vera and John, but is an accredited casino.

The player has been waiting since feb 23rd!

The last 20k that was won on sh*tburst was at VJ & Believe this one to be at BGO

 

[paul@bgo]

Starburst can pay some rather big wins, trust me.

The answer to the OP is no, any operator that decides not to pay out just because they think a game has paid out too much won't be in business for very long. Large wins however have to be checked and verified, this is just common sense. In my 11 years of working in the business you'd be surprised how often technical issues crop up. It's not just the game that can face problems, it's the entire infrastructure behind the game. I had one guy win £50k from a database issue in the past - every spin was producing the same result and paying over and over. It happens, we're dealing with incredibly complex systems afterall.

 

[spintee]

Starburst can pay some rather big wins, trust me.

The answer to the OP is no, any operator that decides not to pay out just because they think a game has paid out too much won't be in business for very long. Large wins however have to be checked and verified, this is just common sense. In my 11 years of working in the business you'd be surprised how often technical issues crop up. It's not just the game that can face problems, it's the entire infrastructure behind the game. I had one guy win £50k from a database issue in the past - every spin was producing the same result and paying over and over. It happens, we're dealing with incredibly complex systems afterall.

I agree that there can and probably always will be errors & one needs to be checked,

All I ask is why is there not ever a mention that players have been refunded due to error found? When there is complaints than the best you here is all games are working perfect and you luck will change?

A thread the other day somebody told casino's and the games supplier there was a problem and nothing was done untill the point some person won big,

 

[paul@bgo]

I agree that there can and probably always will be errors & one needs to be checked,

All I ask is why is there not ever a mention that players have been refunded due to error found? When there is complaints than the best you here is all games are working perfect and you luck will change?

A thread the other day somebody told casino's and the games supplier there was a problem and nothing was done untill the point some person won big,

I've no idea which Casino you're referring to but if someone was genuinely concerned about how a game was performing with me then of course I'd check it. We do also have alerts & compliance procedures relating to the performance of games.

We as operators pay game suppliers an awful lot of money to provide us with decent, trustworthy content. If I want something checked on behalf of a player then I would expect it to be done without issue. That said, every game provider I work with is top shelf, so I've never had any problems with this kind of query.

 

[mcgameboy]

It's AFTER the joker. This is BS IMO - I had 2550x stake in a 4-reel shitstorm on TS2 at Casino LaVida yielding more than this win of Nicola's and was paid in 3 days, inc. pending with NO verification. The casino has made this decision, I doubt 32red or Guts etc. would bat an eyelid (no pun intended.. ) at a little win like that.

I would agree 100%. Being an avid Dark Knight player myself, I've had a win of 120x bet 5x'ed by Joker to 600x bet (at UK Casino Club)
and an 81.5x bet 4x'ed by Joker to 326x bet (at Vegas Palms). I've also had two base game wins of 900x bet or more (at Yukon Gold and 32Red)
and at least two free spin rounds that paid over 900x bet (at 32Red and Golden Reef).

None of them required verification. Note that three of those wins came at non-accredited casinos (part of Casino Rewards Group).

I'm also fairly sure that one of our forum members (b3b44) hit an absolute monster on this slot (approx. 2400x bet on a 6 euro spin no less)
for a win of 14k!

Nicola's win (it is not even 850x bet, let alone 1000x) was well within the "normal" parameters for this slot, given that it is a high
to very high variance slot.

IMO, an account freeze and win verification was completely unnecessary.

 

[Jono777]

Totally agree McGameboy

I've had some 'monsters' over the years, including that wonderful 5-reel Shite-Storm and (touch wood) never, ever any BS or delays and W/D's on these rare and wonderful occasions have always hit my bank in the same time frame as if I'd withdrawn a tenner!!

 

[Valhalla]

I detest this.

Casino's are very quick to 'verify' if the software is okay when a big win is involved.

I've played 1000's of spins on bust the bank without a bonus, try getting anyone to verify if thats alright, and they'll tell you, "That's gambling, some you win, some you lose"

Except they really don't expect you to win, as they are so shocked when you do that they will freeze account and run about after software providers to check if the games are okay.

sickening behaviour.

You're absolutely right. You can guarantee the casino would have made no investigation if a player lost €20,000 in half an hour

 

[vinylweatherman]

Starburst can pay some rather big wins, trust me.

The answer to the OP is no, any operator that decides not to pay out just because they think a game has paid out too much won't be in business for very long. Large wins however have to be checked and verified, this is just common sense. In my 11 years of working in the business you'd be surprised how often technical issues crop up. It's not just the game that can face problems, it's the entire infrastructure behind the game. I had one guy win £50k from a database issue in the past - every spin was producing the same result and paying over and over. It happens, we're dealing with incredibly complex systems afterall.

This just doesn't fit with what we are told, that the games are completely random, and tested and verified as such by third parties and regulators. Surely a player can LOSE £50K from a database issue, but it seems they are told "bad luck, nature of the beast, etc", and their request for an investigation is brushed aside.

Casinos also cover up the level of technical issues, so it appears that they ONLY seem to occur when a player has had a big win, never when it's a small win or the player loses. We are also seeing more in the way of casinos verifying wins with the software provider or using "malfunction voids play" than ever before, yet computer technology is far more advanced than it was when such "technical issues" were almost unheard of.

The problem for the industry is that every time a player has a win sent for verification purely because it's "too lucky", it gives the appearance that the game was not supposed to have done that, and this is an alien concept when it comes to the common understanding of "random". It casts doubt on the integrity of the games, and the more often this happens to players, the more doubt is cast on the integrity of games by that supplier or operator. It also does not help that many rogue casinos misuse this "malfunction voids play" clause when they simply don't want to pay out that much to an overly lucky player that they feel won't play it all back.

I am also getting the impression from the examples here that it isn't just the truly exceptional wins that are delayed for investigation, but that any win greater than a set multiple of stake is checked, and something less than 1000x stake really should not be subject to delay as it is "too ordinary" and event for such extraordinary measures.

It seems that casinos no longer trust their own product, and are easily spooked into sending relatively ordinary wins off for investigation.

 

[Przecinek]

This just doesn't fit with what we are told, that the games are completely random, and tested and verified as such by third parties and regulators. Surely a player can LOSE £50K from a database issue, but it seems they are told "bad luck, nature of the beast, etc", and their request for an investigation is brushed aside.

Totally agree that casinos will never investigate abnormal loses, you would have to contact provider directly (MG or NetEnt) and maybe they would look into it (since they would have an incentive - that is to get rid of any bugs and errors).

Having said that in this particular case, losing 50k due to datebase issue doesn't sound possible, since I'm sure 99.99% of us would immediately stop playing after realizing every spin produces exactly the same losing layout lol lol That would take 3-4 spins at most

 

[Webzcas]

We are also seeing more in the way of casinos verifying wins with the software provider

Yep this happened to me also back on Virgin Casino before they were taken over by Gamesys and rebranded Virgin Games. I withdrew just shy of £11k playing Pixies of the Forest back in 2012, but the withdrawal was delayed a day or so, due to Virgin having to verify my win with RGS.

 

[Finn]

"Niklas clearly agreed with us as in under less than 24 hours of having registered and signed up to Vera & John casino he won more than enough to make him jump around the room in disbelief.

He came in at first just to play for fun. Test out the casino, see what it was about. This was evening one. The next day, he decided to try his luck and play for real money on Starburst. This was for the big win. He budgeted carefully, bet conservatively and went for it. Within 21 minutes he had won €20,000 and was kissing the ground Vera&John casino walks on.

“I really cannot believe it.” He told the staff at the bright blue mobile casino “Even though I knew I wasn’t playing with fake money it was hard to believe that I actually won real cash.”

Neither can I!!

What UTTER bullcrap! Now, assuming a moderate deposit and a 500x max win which never happens, how does this work?

1. So, let's say this 'impoverished' student could afford e100 with 100% SUB (it states his first deposit btw). He's got e200 to play with. He's restricted on his max bet due to bonus max stake terms. If it's his first time he'll play conservatively at 1 or maybe 2e a spin. He would need to wager about 4000 euros. So let's say he got lucky and hit 300x on a 2e bet, he can then raise his stake but still has to make hundreds of spins to make WR before he can raise his stake to 10 or 100e a spin. Starburst plays at about 300 spins an hour (of course unless this 'novice' was start-stopping..)so explain '21 minutes'??

2. He doesn't take a bonus, deposits and being 'conservative' goes on a suicide bet (poor student, tut-tut!) of say 10e a spin. He gets lucky and say gets 100-200x stake, and continues to raise. As we all know, St*rb*rst has a habit of throwing continuous big wins in spin-after-spin regardless of stake.... In '21 minutes' he has 20k. So he's done all this in about 100-140 spins? PISS-OFF!!!

I hope the VeraJohn rep can come here and explain the deposit/bonus? and stakes this player made, and the notable wins at whatever stake and the distance between them in spins. I.E. a play log.

Until he does, this story stinks like a glassblower's armpit.

Yeah, that's pretty silly winner story. Most of the time casinos try to emphasize the "positive things", small bet size, hitting the big hit relatively fast, few spins or relatively short time. Conversely they usually avoid mentioning "negative things" like large bet size or playing 24/7 for the last few weeks. But they don't usually suggest silly stuff like you could win 20k in Starburst with "conservative" betting, that starts to go deep into "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" territory.

Interestingly though Vera&John casino's Starburst winner story from May 2014 was refreshingly honest, it is pretty much only official winner story where I've seen 100€ bet size being mentioned. Usually that kind of stuff isn't put on official winner stories, in those cases where NetEnt jackpot was won with 50€ stakes, that wasn't mentioned in press releases, usually that information has come from either casino's Hall of Fame charts that list the largest winnings, bet sizes and the games they were won on, if the casino has Hall of Fame, or some unofficial comment by casino employee.

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16 minutes. That’s how long it took for 22 year old Zacharias to win over €30,000. After wagering his first deposit, Zacharias used his 100% first deposit bonus as a second chance. This bonus money changed his luck and he became one of the very lucky winners atVera&John Casino.

Café worker Zacharias made a single deposit of €500 at Vera&John and wagered €100 a spin in hopes of winning the big money. Unfortunately for him his efforts were fruitless and Zacharias felt quite down because of his misfortune. At that moment he didn’t know he was holding onto a lucky charm- his bonus money! After only 10 spins he won €1000 and two minutes later the big win he had been looking for arrived. One spin on the very popular slot Starburst granted him a €23,666 win.
- It’s an absolute fantastic feeling, says Zacharias as he speaks with Vera&John.
But his winning fiesta was not over. A couple of additional small wins and 15 minutes later Zacharias could lean back and count his cash to a sum of €33,819.
Party trip to Ibiza

Zacharias hasn’t decided on what to do with all of his winnings, but he is sure about one thing, this win will give him plenty of opportunities. One thing he wants to do for sure is to go on a party trip to the fabulous island of Ibiza. He is already dreaming of palm trees, fantastic drinks and beach parties.

 

[Finn]

Hmm. Interestingly that Starburst winner story of that Niklas the student at Vera&John's own pages doesn't mention "budgeted carefully, bet conservatively" thing. If some affiliate added those things to spice the story, and stupid corny overkill stuff like "kissing the ground Vera&John casino walks on" Vera&John should punish that affliate.

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One afternoon an unexpected twist turned Niklas’ life around while trying to kill some time. No more than 24 hours after signing up with Vera&John Niklas won an amazing €20,000 on the popular slot Startburst.
The same night that Niklas registered an account with Vera&John he tried the casino slot just for fun. It came as a surprise how fun and easy it was. The next day he found himself longing to play again, but this time the aim was to win. It took no more than 21 minutes for the popular slot Starburst to reward a very shocked Niklas with €20,000.

- I really cannot believe it. Even though I knew I wasn’t playing with fake money it was hard to believe that I actually won real cash, he says.
It took him another few minutes and a couple of laps around his apartment for the news to settle.

Well needed money

For Niklas, who is a full time student, the money will come in handy as he’s finally able to relax while checking his bank accounts.
- Now I know I’m in the clear for a few months at least, he says and laughs. But I’ll be smart with the money and not spend it all at once. I will buy myself one thing that I’ve been craving for a long time, a beautiful watch.

 

[Finn]

After a little googling around it seems that Luckymobileslots is the only affliate site that claims that betting conservatively, whereas you can find dozens of affiliate sites that have story of that Niklas the student without any of that betting conservatively crap. Luckymobileslots deserves some spanking for being a crappy affiliate.

 

[dunover]

Starburst can pay some rather big wins, trust me.

The answer to the OP is no, any operator that decides not to pay out just because they think a game has paid out too much won't be in business for very long. Large wins however have to be checked and verified, this is just common sense. In my 11 years of working in the business you'd be surprised how often technical issues crop up. It's not just the game that can face problems, it's the entire infrastructure behind the game. I had one guy win £50k from a database issue in the past - every spin was producing the same result and paying over and over. It happens, we're dealing with incredibly complex systems afterall.

St*rb*rst AGAIN!!

 

[paul7388]

I see by the looks of it the player got paid out in the end

 

[paul@bgo]

This just doesn't fit with what we are told, that the games are completely random, and tested and verified as such by third parties and regulators. Surely a player can LOSE £50K from a database issue, but it seems they are told "bad luck, nature of the beast, etc", and their request for an investigation is brushed aside.

I've never seen it happen, and it would be glaringly obvious if there was a problem which would mean the player would report it. The issue I experienced was very, very discreet and it very nearly cost us a lot of money. The player absolutely would have known there was a problem but from our perspective it took a lot of digging before we discovered what was wrong. The only reason it was investigated in the first place is because I have 10 years experience of verifying gameplay and it didn't smell right. That's about all I can say unfortunately, but don't get too paranoid, there are genuine businesses out there like ours who understand people have to win, otherwise we'd just be a 'give us your money and we'll let you look at some pretty pictures on our website for a while' kind of business. I can't imagine we'd keep too many people interested if that was the business plan!

 

[Jono777]

Totally agree that casinos will never investigate abnormal loses, you would have to contact provider directly (MG or NetEnt) and maybe they would look into it (since they would have an incentive - that is to get rid of any bugs and errors).

Having said that in this particular case, losing 50k due to datebase issue doesn't sound possible, since I'm sure 99.99% of us would immediately stop playing after realizing every spin produces exactly the same losing layout lol lol That would take 3-4 spins at most

With the world we live in today.......You'd be surprised

 

[vinylweatherman]

I've never seen it happen, and it would be glaringly obvious if there was a problem which would mean the player would report it. The issue I experienced was very, very discreet and it very nearly cost us a lot of money. The player absolutely would have known there was a problem but from our perspective it took a lot of digging before we discovered what was wrong. The only reason it was investigated in the first place is because I have 10 years experience of verifying gameplay and it didn't smell right. That's about all I can say unfortunately, but don't get too paranoid, there are genuine businesses out there like ours who understand people have to win, otherwise we'd just be a 'give us your money and we'll let you look at some pretty pictures on our website for a while' kind of business. I can't imagine we'd keep too many people interested if that was the business plan!

It's surprising that something can be so obvious to a player, yet so discreet from your end that you just can't see it without a great deal of digging. Flip this around, and you have a problem in favour of the casino that is also obvious to the player, but the casino doesn't want to know.

Of the few times that there really has been an issue in favour of the casino spotted by players featured on this forum, it has been the case that reports from players are brushed aside rather than investigated, and it takes a considerable group effort to force the casino to even accept that something might not be right so as to trigger an investigation.

I also see that even once a problem has been identified and fixed, it STILL can't be explained to players what went wrong with what is after all, a regulated product. A lack of an explanation breeds "conspiracy theories" as to what it is that the industry is trying to hide. The usual excuse of it helping scammers no longer applies once a problem has been patched as of course it no longer works.

We also see that something that doesn't even exist is "obvious to players", such as it being "obvious" that the RTP has been messed with by the operator because a number of players report terrible losing sessions on a particular game or software.

This is where the impression of it's "nature of the beast" when the casino wins an exceptional amount, and "malfunction voids play" when it's the player that has had an exceptional run comes from.

 

[paul@bgo]

It's surprising that something can be so obvious to a player, yet so discreet from your end that you just can't see it without a great deal of digging. Flip this around, and you have a problem in favour of the casino that is also obvious to the player, but the casino doesn't want to know.

It's just down to how the system reacts. I don't sit and crawl over logs day in day out checking for discrepancies. Had the person in question for this particular problem not have been super greedy, they probably would have made themselves very rich before we even had a sniff that something was wrong. I've come across a few problems during my time and it is almost always down to a hardware/technical issue, rather than software. You have to remember there is hardware powering these games in the background. I'm not for one second suggesting issues are always against the operator, I'm quite sure there have been issues in the past that impacted players. I seem to remember a game a while back that advertised a bonus feature that was impossible to hit?

Of the few times that there really has been an issue in favour of the casino spotted by players featured on this forum, it has been the case that reports from players are brushed aside rather than investigated, and it takes a considerable group effort to force the casino to even accept that something might not be right so as to trigger an investigation.

More fool them. Once a problem is found it'll only cost them more in goodwill & refunds if they skirt the issue. I'm a firm believer in transparency, especially in a business like ours. Problems are obviously going to happen, it's how we deal with the problems that sets us all apart.

I also see that even once a problem has been identified and fixed, it STILL can't be explained to players what went wrong with what is after all, a regulated product. A lack of an explanation breeds "conspiracy theories" as to what it is that the industry is trying to hide. The usual excuse of it helping scammers no longer applies once a problem has been patched as of course it no longer works.

Have to agree here I'm afraid. We're in a highly competitive business and IP is valuable. An obvious, glaring error may be prominent across games, so why would a developer want to help the competition fix this?

We also see that something that doesn't even exist is "obvious to players", such as it being "obvious" that the RTP has been messed with by the operator because a number of players report terrible losing sessions on a particular game or software.

Simply doesn't and cannot happen with an Alderney/Isle of Man regulated company. No idea about Malta or any of the others as I've never had the pleasure of going through their compliance docs. I can categorically tell you that RTP's are declared by 3rd party testing firms, the game is provided with a certificate and then enters into a code freeze state. The game is moved on to the localised hardware and from there noone can touch with. You can't change RTP on the fly unless you're playing on some very hooky software.

This is where the impression of it's "nature of the beast" when the casino wins an exceptional amount, and "malfunction voids play" when it's the player that has had an exceptional run comes from.

Again, it comes down to service. Providing gameplay logs and being transparent is all we can do. Some may choose not to do this, in which case put a Data Access request in, pay your £20 or so and make them do the graft in order to provide it.