Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

The UK formally ceased to be a member state of the EU on the evening of 31st january 2020, and then entered a transitory period until 31st dec 2020.

The uk also entered lockdown in march 2020, and came out of that finally in mar 2022. Then we've seen a major war start in the east of europe and massive price inflation of energy and other essentials, plus increases in interest rates globally.

Only a delusional person would think this is a clean slate from which you can accurately assess and attribute factors to economic performance after and relating only to brexit.

That being said I cannot fully disagree with Zombie's opinion regarding where we fall short, and whether we have the kind of business leaders ready and willing to 'forge ahead' in the wider world.

Apparently we are very high up in the tech world of robotics and AI, just behind the US and China, things required for the fourth industrial revolution, could just be hype but a man [bond villain lookalike] called klaus schwab is very certain this is the next big thing and inevitable.

So the OBR, the IMF and the OECD are all wrong then, and we're just back to Oh But Covid and Oh But Ukraine.

The rest of the world had Covid and Ukraine too, but the UK is the only advanced economy that's shrinking at the moment, which puts it in the company of..... Russia. (There is actually some similarity there since Russia is subject to massive economic sanctions, whereas the UK chose to impose economic sanctions on itself via Brexit.)

As for 'forging ahead' in the wider world, how do you propose we do that? We can't get any trade deals that are better than those we had with the EU, and the trade deal with Australia and New Zealand is now openly recognised by the government that negotiated it as being a pile of shit that hurts UK interests.

We cut ourselves out of the Single Market and Customs Union and replaced it with..... nothing. Which is why we're bleeding out 4-5% of GDP every year, economic activity worth some one hundred billion pounds. So whatever we're 'saving' by not paying EU contributions we're losing ten times over - every single year.

I absolutely promise you mack, and I mean cast iron guarantee of 100%, that this shit isn't going to get better. One year or two years or five years from now, when the Covid and Ukraine lines won't even remotely wash, none of this will have got better.

Brexit delivered the sum total of absolutely naff all, and it will continue to do so, because it's broken by design, it didn't even stop the dinghies coming across the channel (in fact it made it worse because we lost the Dublin Regulation).

This is a wound that's going to have to be treated eventually, it's not going to get better by itself, the first step on that path is for everyone to be honest with themselves, and admit that Brexit is a failure, even when judged explicitly on its own terms.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I don't often agree with Andrew Neil, and I disagree with some of the conclusions he's reached here, but at least he's telling a fundamental truth, Brexit has failed and it won't get better. (He also repeats the falsehood about Brexit enabling the vaccine rollout, when it's absolutely a fact that the UK could have done what it did when a full EU member, and indeed did so when we were in the transition period.)

Still, when The Doolally Mail is printing stuff like this, there's cause for hope.

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[Kroffe]

The UK formally ceased to be a member state of the EU on the evening of 31st january 2020, and then entered a transitory period until 31st dec 2020.

The uk also entered lockdown in march 2020, and came out of that finally in mar 2022. Then we've seen a major war start in the east of europe and massive price inflation of energy and other essentials, plus increases in interest rates globally.

Only a delusional person would think this is a clean slate from which you can accurately assess and attribute factors to economic performance after and relating only to brexit.

That being said I cannot fully disagree with Zombie's opinion regarding where we fall short, and whether we have the kind of business leaders ready and willing to 'forge ahead' in the wider world.

Apparently we are very high up in the tech world of robotics and AI, just behind the US and China, things required for the fourth industrial revolution, could just be hype but a man [bond villain lookalike] called klaus schwab is very certain this is the next big thing and inevitable.

Come join the Metaverse.
Seriously, please come join because at the moment im the only one there so i have nobody to talk to.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

GB News ran a poll yesterday on Brexit, it came back with 55% in favour of Remain.

The presenter was not prepared for this.

Their line today is that the poll was 'hijacked' by Remainers, who I'm sure are big viewers of GB News and would totally be bothered to try and fix a poll on there.

 

[pinnit2014]

Scary world when the editor of the Sunday Mirror appears reasonable. I voted to remain, not out of Project Fear (which Brexit fans love to throw out as much as the Remain camps own narrative), but the fact the whole ideal(s) of Brexit were never sold to me. What we have now is these very high level 'opportunities' which even Brexiteers are now struggling to stand over. Then we have: ah, but you won't know the benefits for 10/15 years: having worked in my early years on Project Management if i had said: well, we kinda think this may, or may not happen, in 10-20 years, who knows, i'd have been fired out the room as soon as i entered it.

When people are asked to make decisions on topic X, it's normally based on some idea of cost/benefit - Brexit 2016 kicked that idea out the window.

That being said, it was put to the electorate and they voted how they voted. So i don't agree with re-engineering, politically, what you want but at the same time you'd be foolish not to sit back and retrospectively go: really?. It was a vote on immigration policy IMO and well, er.

 

[Kroffe]

GB News ran a poll yesterday on Brexit, it came back with 55% in favour of Remain.

Problem is this poll was held in 2022, not 2016.
If the UK remains now it would mean not being part of EU, because as you probably know they have already left.
Sorry Chop, Boris wins again.

 

[goatwack]

Yeah I mean why not retcon every political vote ever whilst we're at it, you know, 'just incase'?, through the prism of hindsight and one faction not getting their idealistic outcome?

American Independence? Why leave? Think of the benefits staying would bring!

What's that? Hong Kong wants to leave as well? Pah!

Hell, even if Scotland voted for Independence, however absurd the premise, you'd have to honour the result!

Never have I witnessed such incessant whining from the Remain side, it's almost as though they still can't accept the result, all these years on!

It's perfectly reasonable to re-evaluate a political decision past the fact, when enough time has passed to make an informed assessment, whereby one can say "Well......that was a disaster, wasn't it!", not so much 'during' the process itself. Leaders change, attitudes change, and it'd be likely a generational vote, not something pulled from the arses of sourpuss Remainers after a couple of years.

But as we're here, let's regurgitate how things could always be better if only we'd......

 

[pinnit2014]

More when, not if, Scotland vote to get out of the shit show and enter their own shit show

Look forward to some of the same people saying it's economically unsound as those who voted for Brexit - the irony is as palpable as the haggis ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Scary world when the editor of the Sunday Mirror appears reasonable. I voted to remain, not out of Project Fear (which Brexit fans love to throw out as much as the Remain camps own narrative), but the fact the whole ideal(s) of Brexit were never sold to me. What we have now is these very high level 'opportunities' which even Brexiteers are now struggling to stand over. Then we have: ah, but you won't know the benefits for 10/15 years: having worked in my early years on Project Management if i had said: well, we kinda think this may, or may not happen, in 10-20 years, who knows, i'd have been fired out the room as soon as i entered it.

When people are asked to make decisions on topic X, it's normally based on some idea of cost/benefit - Brexit 2016 kicked that idea out the window.

That being said, it was put to the electorate and they voted how they voted. So i don't agree with re-engineering, politically, what you want but at the same time you'd be foolish not to sit back and retrospectively go: really?. It was a vote on immigration policy IMO and well, er.

So as you'll know then pinnit, part of any project is a post-implementation review, what went well, what didn't go well, did we achieve our goals, what lessons can we learn for next time, and so on.

As much as Leavers like to talk about 'Crying Remoaners' and 'incessant whining' as Mr Goaty does above, that's just a way to try and deflect from any sort of fact-based analysis being carried out on Brexit. Far easier to shout, 'Will of the people, you lost, get over it', but in the real world that's not how shit works.

If I delivered a dumpster fire of a project such as Brexit as part of my job, and when questioned on why everything was a pile of shit I said 'You lost, get over it, loser, cry me some more tears' - I'd be sacked on the spot, and quite right too.

And how long exactly are we supposed to give Brexit before it starts to deliver on a single one of its promises? Because it definitely wasn't sold on the basis we'd be waiting 10-15 years for anything good to happen, we were told there was a whole world of opportunity out there waiting for the UK the second we broke free of those awful EU shackles.

As I've said before, the whole point of democracy is that it's allowed to change its mind, otherwise it's not democracy. Leave won in 2016, they got their Brexit, we're out of the EU, and it's crap, it's not working. It hasn't made anything better, at all, and it's made a load of stuff worse. There is literally nothing that Leave can point to and say Brexit made it better, if they'd even got the one single win on immigration and the dinghies I'd say 'Well fair enough, at least you got that out of it', but it's managed to completely fuck that up as well, and actually made it worse.

 

[pinnit2014]

So as you'll know then pinnit, part of any project is a post-implementation review, what went well, what didn't go well, did we achieve our goals, what lessons can we learn for next time, and so on.

As much as Leavers like to talk about 'Crying Remoaners' and 'incessant whining' as Mr Goaty does above, that's just a way to try and deflect from any sort of fact-based analysis being carried out on Brexit. Far easier to shout, 'Will of the people, you lost, get over it', but in the real world that's not how shit works.

If I delivered a dumpster fire of a project such as Brexit as part of my job, and when questioned on why everything was a pile of shit I said 'You lost, get over it, loser, cry me some more tears' - I'd be sacked on the spot, and quite right too.

And how long exactly are we supposed to give Brexit before it starts to deliver on a single one of its promises? Because it definitely wasn't sold on the basis we'd be waiting 10-15 years for anything good to happen, we were told there was a whole world of opportunity out there waiting for the UK the second we broke free of those awful EU shackles.

As I've said before, the whole point of democracy is that it's allowed to change its mind, otherwise it's not democracy. Leave won in 2016, they got their Brexit, we're out of the EU, and it's crap, it's not working. It hasn't made anything better, at all, and it's made a load of stuff worse. There is literally nothing that Leave can point to and say Brexit made it better, if they'd even got the one single win on immigration and the dinghies I'd say 'Well fair enough, at least you got that out of it', but it's managed to completely fuck that up as well, and actually made it worse.

You've brought back memories of my Prince 2 Lite (i preferred the Lite version as it involved less work) courses etc, so thanks for that

I do recall being part of a payroll implementation project that failed to pay people what they thought they were getting - in hindsight, it was prepping me for Brexit

It does raise constitution issues - on one hand, that's democracy, on the other: how much longer can i bluff my way to the final hand. Smarter people than me who still can't square that circle, so i'll defer to them

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Commentators at The Torygraph getting increasingly close to joining the dots and working out that Brexit isn't delivering anything because it can't.

I love the way REMAINERS are still expected to take some of the blame though, when we're the ones who explicitly didn't want any of this shit in the first place.

And if there's an element of 'I told you so' in there, well, how can there bloody well not be? Endless lines of experts (those folks that Gove told us we were all bored of) spelled out in great detail all the damages that Brexit would inflict on the UK, so when that damage comes to pass (which it has), what are they supposed to do, pretend they never said anything and instead point out how pretty the sky looks today?

To pretend that Brexit isn't a big pile of wank is dishonest, there's no point pretending that we just need to 'make Brexit work', because it doesn't work, and it never will, you can't make something that's inherently broken magically work. So yes I very much include Labour in my hall of shame when it comes to peddling these ridiculous lies.

It's like telling a small child their dog has gone to live on a farm in the country because we don't want to upset them by telling them it's dead.

 

[dunover]

GB News ran a poll yesterday on Brexit, it came back with 55% in favour of Remain.

The presenter was not prepared for this.

Their line today is that the poll was 'hijacked' by Remainers, who I'm sure are big viewers of GB News and would totally be bothered to try and fix a poll on there.

Yes, they got all their viewers to vote at once, I believe the final result was 11-9 for remain.

Actaully having seen the channel decried in PE every fortnight, I watched it for a couple of days and I must say they do have some free debates there, ones which would have the Anti-BBC board's arseholes twitching like rabbits noses.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, they got all their viewers to vote at once, I believe the final result was 11-9 for remain.

It's funny because it's true!

 

[goatwack]

I'll watch it, if only to not watch the BBC, or arguably even worse: Sky News.

Then after around eight minutes I realize why Andrew Neil disowned his brainchild, and start thinking 'Controlled Opposition', and why watching it for any great length of time is just as futile as any of the other, more 'established' outlets, and that ultimately, it consists of ex- journos wishing to vent!

They'll still broach certain themes that others won't, though ratings don't just make themselves you know! And their constant sound problems are meme-worthy in itself....

I did quite like panel-ey segments here and there, and the likes of Benjamin Butterworth, who'd troll the other guests for fun in that unique, insufferable way of his. What a git!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nothing To Do With Brexit Mate.

QUICK QUIZ - What do you think Ireland still has access to that the rest of the UK doesn't.....

I'll give you a clue, it starts with Single and ends with Market.

Ireland has picked up a lot of UK business, EU based companies that used to deal with the UK, now deal with Ireland instead because trading with the UK is such a ballache. Ireland is what the UK used to be, i.e. an English speaking country inside the EU that acts as an obvious route in and out of the bloc for trade.

 

[pinnit2014]

Brexit-related ish....

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Here's an idea for the SNP - why don't you start addressing the nosedive of Scottish Education, waiting lists exceeding even that of down south and anti-business policies. But nah, just make sure those car engines aren't idling at a Macdonalds, lest you feel the wrath of the Greens

They'll have known that was going to be the result before it went up there but let it go so as to create/add to the bogeyman

Here's comes the election proxy vote now - be like the Chuckle Brothers on acid.

But as we know from Nicola, she doesn't like to accept results. Stay tuned

 

[goatwack]

No, it's not really that unrelated. Sturgeon clings on to some forlorn hope of reversing a generational vote by shoehorning the topic in at every opportunity......as do Remainers with Brexit. Except that Sturgeon's more realistic with her expectations ?‍

 

[pinnit2014]

The Northern Irish will have a (well, 1/2 of them) nervous look over: feeling that a Yes vote will give momentum to a N Irish vote. Though, you'd need two there: one for leaving up north and one for accepting down south.....creates the funny possibility that yes, we vote to go into the other 26 counties! And Dublin saying: that's all very well but we don't want you: piss off To be sure, to be sure?

I went a good 40 years without hearing the word referendum and now it seems 30% of my day is consumed by them

 

[dunover]

Nothing To Do With Brexit Mate.

QUICK QUIZ - What do you think Ireland still has access to that the rest of the UK doesn't.....

I'll give you a clue, it starts with Single and ends with Market.

Ireland has picked up a lot of UK business, EU based companies that used to deal with the UK, now deal with Ireland instead because trading with the UK is such a ballache. Ireland is what the UK used to be, i.e. an English speaking country inside the EU that acts as an obvious route in and out of the bloc for trade.

View attachment 176230

Yes, I remember too the good old days when English could be commonly heard spoken in the UK.

 

[mack341]

Each set of EU rules should be looked at by parliament, having a blind bonfire wouldn't make sense but neither would not putting regulations under the microspope to see if they're in uk interests to now keep to.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Each set of EU rules should be looked at by parliament, having a blind bonfire wouldn't make sense but neither would not putting regulations under the microspope to see if they're in uk interests to now keep to.

Yes unfortunately as part of 'taking back control' what the government has actually done is given itself the right to act in a wildly undemocratic and unaccountable fashion, making massive changes to the laws that govern the UK and its people with absolutely no oversight whatsoever.

It stands to reason that you can't just destroy huge chunks of the laws of the land without analysing what changes you're making and why, because the knock-on effects could be significant. UK businesses, which are already suffering, are pointing out that they might immediately find themselves in breach of EU law, because the UK will no longer have that legislation retained on its books, and thus could lose the right to trade completely.

It's yet another crackpot ideologically driven determination to find some 'Brexit benefits' to point at, originally the brainchild of the haunted Victorian pencil Rees-Mogg.

Sooner or later the collective madness that Brexit has cast over the UK is going to lift, and we'll start to roll back the disasters it has brought upon on our country. The problem is how much damage we're sustaining in the interim.

 

[dunover]

Yes unfortunately as *****.

It's yet another crackpot ideologically driven determination to find some 'Brexit benefits' to point at, originally the brainchild of the haunted Victorian pencil Rees-Mogg.

Sooner or later the collective madness that Brexit has cast over the UK is going to lift, and we'll start to roll back the disasters it has brought upon on our country. The problem is how much damage we're sustaining in the interim.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

STARTED:

FINISHED:

 

[mcgameboy]

Nothing To Do With Brexit Mate.

QUICK QUIZ - What do you think Ireland still has access to that the rest of the UK doesn't.....

I'll give you a clue, it starts with Single and ends with Market.

Ireland has picked up a lot of UK business, EU based companies that used to deal with the UK, now deal with Ireland instead because trading with the UK is such a ballache. Ireland is what the UK used to be, i.e. an English speaking country inside the EU that acts as an obvious route in and out of the bloc for trade.

View attachment 176230

ANOTHER QUICK QUIZ - Who is the most patronising, condescending WANKER on this entire forum, due to the fact that he literally gets his rocks off
while "addressing" his fellow CM members like they are ALL still in fucking nursery school?

I'll give you a clue. It starts with Chopley and ends with IOM.

Fucking arsehole. Go kneel at the feet of a woman with a penis and pledge everlasting allegiance to it, you insufferable woketard.

Do you EVER look in the mirror and tell yourself "I'm really going to try hard NOT to be a total fucking bellend on the CM forum today?"

Because if you do, you fail. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

 

[goatwack]

Dude, you need to stop with the being vague. I can't work out your stance

 

[mcgameboy]

Dude, you need to stop with the being vague. I can't work out your stance

I think my stance is....

I honestly think I need to resort to DELIBERATELY getting myself banned in order to enjoy a holiday from that nauseating prick.

Maybe Bryan will tell me to chill the fuck out and my cooler head will prevail.

Or he will give me the ban hammer and the "bye dickweed" treatment instead.

It's really frustrating when ONE forum member single-handedly spoils your forum experience.

 

[dunover]

I think my stance is....

I honestly think I need to resort to DELIBERATELY getting myself banned in order to enjoy a holiday from that nauseating prick.

Maybe Bryan will tell me to chill the fuck out and my cooler head will prevail.

Or he will give me the ban hammer and the "bye dickweed" treatment instead.

It's really frustrating when ONE forum member single-handedly spoils your forum experience.

I take it a move to the Isle of Moan isn't in your programme for 2023?

 

[goatwack]

I think my stance is....

I honestly think I need to resort to DELIBERATELY getting myself banned in order to enjoy a holiday from that nauseating prick.

Maybe Bryan will tell me to chill the fuck out and my cooler head will prevail.

Or he will give me the ban hammer and the "bye dickweed" treatment instead.

It's really frustrating when ONE forum member single-handedly spoils your forum experience.

Spare a thought for me - had to do two Stop And Chats today. First one was at Tesco, where I went to purchase some pre-gym refreshments (crisps).....and where approaching the ONE counter that was serving and had Ms Chatty McChat forcing me into speaking with her, I think it was about Tesco Clubcards, and something about a message in a bottle ?‍

Second forced Stop And Chat occurred at the gym........'s changing rooms. Walking in, I see one other fellow, stripped to the waist (awkward) and I try my utmost to give off "Don't speak to me" vibes. Then around 15 seconds later, he initiates a conversation, of sorts, involving his workout regimen and other uninteresting guff.

But what made it all the more surreal is that he looked like Toady from Neighbours, and as he was talking, all I could think of is the Neighbours theme tune.

But that's life for ya

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think my stance is....

I honestly think I need to resort to DELIBERATELY getting myself banned in order to enjoy a holiday from that nauseating prick.

Maybe Bryan will tell me to chill the fuck out and my cooler head will prevail.

Or he will give me the ban hammer and the "bye dickweed" treatment instead.

It's really frustrating when ONE forum member single-handedly spoils your forum experience.

Crikey and I thought us liberal lefties were supposed to be the snowflakes.

Anyway, pro tip, the forum has 'Ignore' functionality, perhaps you should consider using it before you get another fit of the vapours.

Here it is, I am using Mr Goaty purely for demonstration purposes, I would never ignore dear old goatwack.

 

[goatwack]

I just wish this could be settled in an adult, civil way. Like say, with an arm-wrestle?

Or I hear all the rage is PPV boxing matches, like all the YouTubers out there. Stream it on CM, and all proceeds could go to the IMF ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I just wish this could be settled in an adult, civil way. Like say, with an arm-wrestle?

Or I hear all the rage is PPV boxing matches, like all the YouTubers out there. Stream it on CM, and all proceeds could go to the IMF ?

Well why doesn't he just not read the thread, or use the Ignore button? It's not like I go trolling around the forums with this stuff, I keep the politics to the politics threads, but as someone who's been posting to this thread since Page 1, and with Brexit very much still not 'finished', what does he think I'll be posting about in here, the latest brand of shampoo I've been getting great results with? Or perhaps my Damascene conversion to the church of Leave and how on balance I've decided Brexit is a great idea after all?

And for the record, I'm not the one who just saw fit to call another CM member a 'fucking arsehole', an 'insufferable woketard' (although I might pinch that for my custom user title actually) and a 'nauseating prick'.

Take me and dunover, for example, whilst we clearly have very different political views and will express them robustly in the politics threads, elsewhere on the forums we're perfectly civil with each other and will happily chat about other things.

 

[goatwack]

Well why doesn't he just not read the thread, or use the Ignore button? It's not like I go trolling around the forums with this stuff, I keep the politics to the politics threads, but as someone who's been posting to this thread since Page 1, and with Brexit very much still not 'finished', what does he think I'll be posting about in here, the latest brand of shampoo I've been getting great results with? Or perhaps my Damascene conversion to the church of Leave and how on balance I've decided Brexit is a great idea after all?

And for the record, I'm not the one who just saw fit to call another CM member a 'fucking arsehole', an 'insufferable woketard' (although I might pinch that for my custom user title actually) and a 'nauseating prick'.

Take me and dunover, for example, whilst we clearly have very different political views and will express them robustly in the politics threads, elsewhere on the forums we're perfectly civil with each other and will happily chat about other things.

Well, there's certainly no denying it was 'brusque', and it would be disingenuous for me to pretend it wasn't. I think by and large these discussions are handled as well as could be, but we've all lost our rag on occasion. God knows I wince at some of my 'Trump era' hot takes, and some of my 'choice' reactions to other posters. In fact, in some other threads too!

We're all 'in the moment', and with political threads we all get rubbed up wrong, especially in 'text-speak'. We think we know each other pretty well after all these years but ultimately haven't the first clue, and with differing temperaments afoot, personalities clash. I'd wager more people would put aside their differences if meeting over a pint, that is, if people bloody turned up for the Meistermeets!

By the same token, six years on, we're reminded in this ongoing Brexit bungle that everyone's to take a side, that there can be no neutrality or simply observing how things play out, and so it becomes an unwanted Remainer vs Brexiteer unwitting stand-off. Fact is, six years is a long time in politics, I believe my partner voted to Leave based on half-truths and the pledges (I think I couldn't vote, but the sentiment was there) and can now see that the chancers of that time couldn't see past their noses, never mind a decade into the future.

And as for unfettered immigration, that's highlighted just how far the UK's taken back control of its borders, as I'm sure anyone with half a brain would like help those in need, but not before knowing if their asylum is genuine. Yet as today's figures have proven, it's all a sham, as half a million have entered illegally in a year!

I don't make any bones about believing the politicians 'of the day' were ever truly in favour of enacting Brexit, and as we'll see soon enough, Sunak's already paving the way for re-entry. Perhaps the right choice? Who knows, but I'm not going to kid myself that the Mini sold to me is a Lamborghini, and Brexit, in its current guise, is looking rather like a dud

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well, there's certainly no denying it was 'brusque', and it would be disingenuous for me to pretend it wasn't. I think by and large these discussions are handled as well as could be, but we've all lost our rag on occasion. God knows I wince at some of my 'Trump era' hot takes, and some of my 'choice' reactions to other posters. In fact, in some other threads too!

We're all 'in the moment', and with political threads we all get rubbed up wrong, especially in 'text-speak'. We think we know each other pretty well after all these years but ultimately haven't the first clue, and with differing temperaments afoot, personalities clash. I'd wager more people would put aside their differences if meeting over a pint, that is, if people bloody turned up for the Meistermeets!

By the same token, six years on, we're reminded in this ongoing Brexit bungle that everyone's to take a side, that there can be no neutrality or simply observing how things play out, and so it becomes an unwanted Remainer vs Brexiteer unwitting stand-off. Fact is, six years is a long time in politics, I believe my partner voted to Leave based on half-truths and the pledges (I think I couldn't vote, but the sentiment was there) and can now see that the chancers of that time couldn't see past their noses, never mind a decade into the future.

And as for unfettered immigration, that's highlighted just how far the UK's taken back control of its borders, as I'm sure anyone with half a brain would like help those in need, but not before knowing if their asylum is genuine. Yet as today's figures have proven, it's all a sham, as half a million have entered illegally in a year!

I don't make any bones about believing the politicians 'of the day' were ever truly in favour of enacting Brexit, and as we'll see soon enough, Sunak's already paving the way for re-entry. Perhaps the right choice? Who knows, but I'm not going to kid myself that the Mini sold to me is a Lamborghini, and Brexit, in its current guise, is looking rather like a dud

Well this is the thing goaty, none of this stuff is personal for me, it's why I never do personal insults or abuse, I have no idea what people have going on in their lives and I don't want to add anything negative into the mix in that regard. Maybe my approach is somewhat 'bashing over the head' but I think that's what Brexit needs, it was sold as a fantasy and it's crashed and burned on contact with reality, and that reality has to be addressed.

It's also how I have to deal with things in my job, I work in IT and we deal entirely with facts and figures, provable outcomes, evidenced analyses and so on, if something fucks up and doesn't work properly, we have to be honest about why, and that includes being honest with ourselves and accepting if and when we've screwed something up and made a bad call - which absolutely happens sometimes.

I have nothing personal against mcgameboy, it certainly wasn't my intention to cause the apparent upset/anger it did for him with what I posted. The way I see Brexit being fixed is people telling their politicians that they want it to be fixed, because it doesn't look like our politicians are going to get there by themselves. The cowardice from both the Tories and Labour on this is shameful, and I am increasingly unimpressed with Starmer who should have the courage to tell the truth, rather than hiding behind his 'make Brexit work' nonsense.

Brexit makes me angry, and just once more for the record, I don't blame anyone who voted for it, I blame the liars, chancers and incompetents who pitched it and sold it off the back of a load of falsehoods, lies and incompetence. This thread has been running for three and a half years now, it's actually a pretty good chronicle of how Brexit has crumbled to dust, our focus now should be how we fix it going forward, and start to repair the damage it has done to the UK.

I stopped asking for anyone to name me a Brexit benefit they could point to quite some time ago, because we all know by now that there aren't any. Brexit is a busted flush, and it's time to stop pretending it still has any more cards up its sleeve left to play.

 

[mack341]

Apparently Starmer has told the CBI/business community that they need to wean themselves off cheap imported labour, rejoining the EU would cause an immediate reversal of this idea. So on that basis I can't see any concerted labour party move to get us 'back in' before 2030.

By then we will definitely have lots of proven real world data to assess the country's economic performance outside the EU club, rather than the premature efforts now to decide it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Apparently Starmer has told the CBI/business community that they need to wean themselves off cheap imported labour, rejoining the EU would cause an immediate reversal of this idea. So on that basis I can't see any concerted labour party move to get us 'back in' before 2030.

By then we will definitely have lots of proven real world data to assess the country's economic performance outside the EU club, rather than the premature efforts now to decide it.

If you don't think the data is there already mack, I don't know what to tell you really, because the IMF, the OECD, the OBR, endless lists of British businesses and the entire British fishing industry are pretty sure about it already.

What do you think is going to change to make the situation any better? The big Brexit hope was a massive trade deal with the USA, but that's gone absolutely nowhere and the Yanks have made it 100% clear that they're not going to do a damn thing whilst the Northern Ireland Protocol is imperilled. And as for the trade deal with Australia/NZ, the Tories are desperately trying to distance themselves from that and blame it all on Truss (as she was foreign sec at the time) because it's such a terrible deal that actively hurts UK interests.

I literally have no idea what you're expecting to happen that can start to turn this ship around whilst the UK remains outside the Single Market and Customs Union, and quite frankly, neither do the Brexiteers as they form endless circular firing squads to blame anything and everything, and everyone (except themselves, of course), for why it's all gone so badly wrong.

I do agree with you on the Starmer/Labour issue. A year ago I could understand their position a little more, but as the wheels increasingly fall off the Brexit wagon, I'm sure a politician with some conviction, passion and charisma (three qualities that Starmer notably lacks), could start to make a convincing case for rolling back the Brexit calamity, but instead we get this awful 'Tory-lite' rhetoric and cowardly insistence that Labour will 'make Brexit work'.

 

[mack341]

If you don't think the data is there already mack, I don't know what to tell you really, because the IMF, the OECD, the OBR, endless lists of British businesses and the entire British fishing industry are pretty sure about it already.

What do you think is going to change to make the situation any better? The big Brexit hope was a massive trade deal with the USA, but that's gone absolutely nowhere and the Yanks have made it 100% clear that they're not going to do a damn thing whilst the Northern Ireland Protocol is imperilled. And as for the trade deal with Australia/NZ, the Tories are desperately trying to distance themselves from that and blame it all on Truss (as she was foreign sec at the time) because it's such a terrible deal that actively hurts UK interests.

I literally have no idea what you're expecting to happen that can start to turn this ship around whilst the UK remains outside the Single Market and Customs Union, and quite frankly, neither do the Brexiteers as they form endless circular firing squads to blame anything and everything, and everyone (except themselves, of course), for why it's all gone so badly wrong.

I do agree with you on the Starmer/Labour issue. A year ago I could understand their position a little more, but as the wheels increasingly fall off the Brexit wagon, I'm sure a politician with some conviction, passion and charisma (three qualities that Starmer notably lacks), could start to make a convincing case for rolling back the Brexit calamity, but instead we get this awful 'Tory-lite' rhetoric and cowardly insistence that Labour will 'make Brexit work'.

Well if exports of products and services are being impacted by new paperwork requirements/friction, in time these things can be improved and adjusted.

All these bodies you quote, OBR etc..never provide any case studies, so you'd look at one sector that was underperforming compared to previous levels of trade with the EU, and then examine the exact issues they face, not guessed conclusions. The whole of Europe is in a recession, so for that reason alone you have to unpick cause and effect.

Especially giving away sovereignty, you have to be absolutely sure there are no other solutions/causes, generalised conclusions which lack any explanatory detail are all you are seeing in these torygraph articles etc...

Edit: I haven't heard of any of the japanese car makers in the NE, for example, complain that the new arrangements are impacting their sales, it seems to be more the cottage industry/small firms that are given as examples. Could be a good idea, if they're not doing it already, for the govt to have a dept that provides assistance and help, which will also act as a feedback loop for the govt.

 

[irish-ranger]

ANOTHER QUICK QUIZ - Who is the most patronising, condescending WANKER on this entire forum, due to the fact that he literally gets his rocks off
while "addressing" his fellow CM members like they are ALL still in fucking nursery school?

I'll give you a clue. It starts with Chopley and ends with IOM.

Fucking arsehole. Go kneel at the feet of a woman with a penis and pledge everlasting allegiance to it, you insufferable woketard.

Do you EVER look in the mirror and tell yourself "I'm really going to try hard NOT to be a total fucking bellend on the CM forum today?"

Because if you do, you fail. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

This has to be post of the year ??????

 

[Webzcas]

No, it's not really that unrelated. Sturgeon clings on to some forlorn hope of reversing a generational vote by shoehorning the topic in at every opportunity......as do Remainers with Brexit. Except that Sturgeon's more realistic with her expectations ?‍

Not now she isn't - she is a busted flush as are her supporters. The SNP are a one trick pony, wasting tax payer funds going to the Supreme Court, knowing full well the decision would not go their way. Now they are being denied democracy!

Do not make me laugh! They had a democratic vote only 8 years ago. Compare that to the EU referendums in the UK. Prior to 2016, the last one was in 1974 just before I was born. Slightly longer than 8 years!

The SNP are toast, as their trump card and ace up their sleeve being the Tory government will be out of power in two years time. If current polls are to be believed, Labour are heading for a landslide of Tony Blair epic proportions.

The SNP cannot even handle the powers devolved to the Scottish Govt, but continue to garner support because the Tory government is pretty much universally despised North of the Border. They are able to get away with their many failings by blaming the tories, whilst beating the well worn drum for independence.

All they do is mismanage Scotland - Ferries. NHS, Education, drug problem....... As they have only one goal and one goal only.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This has to be post of the year ??????

Yeah but I'm still right. You can shout at the clouds as much as you want to, it won't stop Brexit being a big fat pile of distended monkey bollocks.

Actually, I take that back, it's unfair on big fat piles of distended monkey bollocks.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well if exports of products and services are being impacted by new paperwork requirements/friction, in time these things can be improved and adjusted.

All these bodies you quote, OBR etc..never provide any case studies, so you'd look at one sector that was underperforming compared to previous levels of trade with the EU, and then examine the exact issues they face, not guessed conclusions. The whole of Europe is in a recession, so for that reason alone you have to unpick cause and effect.

Especially giving away sovereignty, you have to be absolutely sure there are no other solutions/causes, generalised conclusions which lack any explanatory detail are all you are seeing in these torygraph articles etc...

Edit: I haven't heard of any of the japanese car makers in the NE, for example, complain that the new arrangements are impacting their sales, it seems to be more the cottage industry/small firms that are given as examples. Could be a good idea, if they're not doing it already, for the govt to have a dept that provides assistance and help, which will also act as a feedback loop for the govt.

For me though mack, these are just the same bland platitudes we're hearing from politicians now when it comes to Brexit (and yes, I absolutely include the shameful cowardice of Labour when it comes to this), vague waves in the direction of 'well this could happen and we can do more of this and that thing over there is still alright', it's meaningless, it doesn't address a single aspect of the ongoing damage that Brexit is causing in any material fashion.

Here's six minutes of an interview Jeremy Hunt had with Beth Rigby the other day, you can see how much he really doesn't want to talk about Brexit when it comes to the economy, but when he has to, he's got nothing, because there is nothing, until he finally says he won't answer any more questions about Brexit and its economic impact.

There is an elephant in the room when it comes to the economy, pretending that the elephant isn't there won't make it stop existing.

 

[mack341]

For me though mack, these are just the same bland platitudes we're hearing from politicians now when it comes to Brexit (and yes, I absolutely include the shameful cowardice of Labour when it comes to this), vague waves in the direction of 'well this could happen and we can do more of this and that thing over there is still alright', it's meaningless, it doesn't address a single aspect of the ongoing damage that Brexit is causing in any material fashion.

Here's six minutes of an interview Jeremy Hunt had with Beth Rigby the other day, you can see how much he really doesn't want to talk about Brexit when it comes to the economy, but when he has to, he's got nothing, because there is nothing, until he finally says he won't answer any more questions about Brexit and its economic impact.

There is an elephant in the room when it comes to the economy, pretending that the elephant isn't there won't make it stop existing.

It would be idiotic to say something is failing but then not go into any detail, and just say it's brexit. Give me some examples of large firms that normally export to europe [eu] that now face new material obstacles, and their business is being impeded. Surely if leaving the EU is so devastating to GDP and the economy, then many examples shouldn't be hard to find?

That's the obvious thing lacking from these newspaper opinion pieces, no actual meat and bones. Because if there were there would be the possibility of adjustment and remedy, but that would be too complex, so just say it's brexit and after 2 years, where lots of other major events were/are happening, don't bother with any details just get back in asap.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It would be idiotic to say something is failing but then not go into any detail, and just say it's brexit. Give me some examples of large firms that normally export to europe [eu] that now face new material obstacles, and their business is being impeded. Surely if leaving the EU is so devastating to GDP and the economy, then many examples shouldn't be hard to find?

That's the obvious thing lacking from these newspaper opinion pieces, no actual meat and bones. Because if there were there would be the possibility of adjustment and remedy, but that would be too complex, so just say it's brexit and after 2 years, where lots of other major events were/are happening, don't bother with any details just get back in asap.

I've linked this list before mack, so here it is again, currently it has 839 Brexit downsides and 23 upsides. Every single one has citations to the evidence.

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[ChopleyIOM]

For me though mack, these are just the same bland platitudes we're hearing from politicians now when it comes to Brexit (and yes, I absolutely include the shameful cowardice of Labour when it comes to this), vague waves in the direction of 'well this could happen and we can do more of this and that thing over there is still alright', it's meaningless, it doesn't address a single aspect of the ongoing damage that Brexit is causing in any material fashion.

Here's six minutes of an interview Jeremy Hunt had with Beth Rigby the other day, you can see how much he really doesn't want to talk about Brexit when it comes to the economy, but when he has to, he's got nothing, because there is nothing, until he finally says he won't answer any more questions about Brexit and its economic impact.

There is an elephant in the room when it comes to the economy, pretending that the elephant isn't there won't make it stop existing.

I'm aware this video is edited down to just show the Brexit stuff, so here's the full interview, which I've just watched.

The full interview is even more illuminating, because you get a proper feel for how much Hunt just doesn't want to talk about Brexit and its economic impact, eventually having a bit of a strop because he doesn't like having to try and keep avoiding the questions.

On a wider note, when he's describing all the things that are crap and need fixing, and as Beth Rigby points out, they've been in charge for twelve years now, so he's literally just explaining all the ways in which the Tories have failed the UK.

 

[mack341]

I've linked this list before mack, so here it is again, currently it has 839 Brexit downsides and 23 upsides. Every single one has citations to the evidence.

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They're not exactly detailed examples, also lots of 'mays' and 'mights'.

It will require MPs to look at these paperwork requirements, to see if they're unreasonable and badly set out, confusing etc...if they were exporting elsewhere outside of the EU they'd also have to complete paperwork, but that is never cited as an obtacle to world wide trade is it?

Delicatessens: A Greek deli, The Isle of Olive in Hackney, said to be the best in London, is to close after 11 years. The owners blame a multitude of reasons but say “certainly Brexit is sitting right there at the top“. With reams of paperwork and with many small artisan producers across Greece refusing to export to the UK, it became difficult to source unique products and sell at reasonable prices.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It would be idiotic to say something is failing but then not go into any detail, and just say it's brexit. Give me some examples of large firms that normally export to europe [eu] that now face new material obstacles, and their business is being impeded. Surely if leaving the EU is so devastating to GDP and the economy, then many examples shouldn't be hard to find?

That's the obvious thing lacking from these newspaper opinion pieces, no actual meat and bones. Because if there were there would be the possibility of adjustment and remedy, but that would be too complex, so just say it's brexit and after 2 years, where lots of other major events were/are happening, don't bother with any details just get back in asap.

Also mack, why are you only after examples of 'large firms'? The SME sector in the UK is huge, generating vast amounts of economic activity, employing massive numbers of people and contributing piles of cash in taxes to the UK Treasury.

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It's well known that many larger companies have to an extent managed to 'brute force' Brexit, simply taking on the extra costs and bureaucracy, passing them onto consumers, and maintaining a front of things largely being the same as before, witness dunover and his ecstasy at putting one over on Remainers by being able to..... do his Christmas shopping last year. (I swear I'm not even making that up.)

You're literally framing your question as, 'Prove to me that Brexit has started any fires, but explicitly ignore that fire it started over there'.

 

[mack341]

Also mack, why are you only after examples of 'large firms'? The SME sector in the UK is huge, generating vast amounts of economic activity, employing massive numbers of people and contributing piles of cash in taxes to the UK Treasury.

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It's well known that many larger companies have to an extent managed to 'brute force' Brexit, simply taking on the extra costs and bureaucracy, passing them onto consumers, and maintaining a front of things largely being the same as before, witness dunover and his ecstasy at putting one over on Remainers by being able to..... do his Christmas shopping last year. (I swear I'm not even making that up.)

You're literally framing your question as, 'Prove to me that Brexit has started any fires, but explicitly ignore that fire it started over there'.
View attachment 176349

Well because you can then isolate the issues and concentrate the help where it is needed, rather than give the impression to bert and sue, watching the news or reading the paper, that it's all doom and gloom top to bottom because of brexit.

We can make things better, the paperwork and procedures may need altering for SMEs, if you do all that and there are still insurmountable problems, then you can show the public and have that conversation [rejoin the EU] discussing the benefits and drawbacks.

Many remainers won't admit any drawbacks or negative effects [a bit like sturgeon and her independence obsession].

I do think the EU form/model and the way they carry on is doomed to be unpopular, and it's whether the public can be frightened enough into believing there is no other option, we must get back in. If you had a different setup and some flexibility/common sense regarding labour movement, then it could be a lot more popular.

Then again if the president of the EU was to be publicly voted in, they'd wield a lot more power and have authority vested in them to do so, national parliaments and leaders would be reticent to go that way, having a democratically elected president in brussels with hundreds of millions of votes behind them.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

More excellent analysis from Chris Grey, and he's right as well, Brexit is ceasing to be a taboo subject.

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A few excerpts, but the whole article is well worth reading.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Well because you can then isolate the issues and concentrate the help where it is needed, rather than give the impression to bert and sue, watching the news or reading the paper, that it's all doom and gloom top to bottom because of brexit.

We can make things better, the paperwork and procedures may need altering for SMEs, if you do all that and there are still insurmountable problems, then you can show the public and have that conversation [rejoin the EU] discussing the benefits and drawbacks.

Many remainers won't admit any drawbacks or negative effects [a bit like sturgeon and her independence obsession].

I do think the EU form/model and the way they carry on is doomed to be unpopular, and it's whether the public can be frightened enough into believing there is no other option, we must get back in. If you had a different setup and some flexibility/common sense regarding labour movement, then it could be a lot more popular.

Then again if the president of the EU was to be publicly voted in, they'd wield a lot more power and have authority vested in them to do so, national parliaments and leaders would be reticent to go that way, having a democratically elected president in brussels with hundreds of millions of votes behind them.

The thing that strikes me about your post mack, is that you're talking entirely about fixing problems that Brexit has created. As per the article from Chris Grey I linked above, who has been producing superb Brexit commentary for years now, all that's left now is to deny that Brexit has created problems, or say that the problems it's created can be fixed. There is no pretence it's made anything better, or that it will make anything better, ever.

I don't know if you watched Beth Rigby's interview with Jeremy Hunt, but holy shit that guy didn't want to talk about the economic impact of Brexit. Hunt does at least seem to be a functional human being (which is more than could be said for some of Johnson's front bench, or indeed Johnson himself), and you can see how much he wants to get away from the subject, because he knows he's talking utter horseshit when he insists that there are indeed (completely unspecified!) 'Brexit Opportunities' and that we'll be the next Silicon Valley. We can't even stop our own food rotting in the fields, where are we going to get the people from to do that?

So for example, when you talk about altering the paperwork for UK SMEs to make things better in the post-Brexit landscape, this is paperwork that literally didn't exist until Brexit conjured it into existence!

There's no need to 'frighten' the population of the UK into deciding that Brexit was a mistake and we'd be better off back in the EU, they're reaching that conclusion themselves, in increasing numbers, every single day, and in a majority that isn't going to disappear.

 

[mack341]

The thing that strikes me about your post mack, is that you're talking entirely about fixing problems that Brexit has created. As per the article from Chris Grey I linked above, who has been producing superb Brexit commentary for years now, all that's left now is to deny that Brexit has created problems, or say that the problems it's created can be fixed. There is no pretence it's made anything better, or that it will make anything better, ever.

I don't know if you watched Beth Rigby's interview with Jeremy Hunt, but holy shit that guy didn't want to talk about the economic impact of Brexit. Hunt does at least seem to be a functional human being (which is more than could be said for some of Johnson's front bench, or indeed Johnson himself), and you can see how much he wants to get away from the subject, because he knows he's talking utter horseshit when he insists that there are indeed (completely unspecified!) 'Brexit Opportunities' and that we'll be the next Silicon Valley. We can't even stop our own food rotting in the fields, where are we going to get the people from to do that?

So for example, when you talk about altering the paperwork for UK SMEs to make things better in the post-Brexit landscape, this is paperwork that literally didn't exist until Brexit conjured it into existence!

There's no need to 'frighten' the population of the UK into deciding that Brexit was a mistake and we'd be better off back in the EU, they're reaching that conclusion themselves, in increasing numbers, every single day, and in a majority that isn't going to disappear.

I'm sure there was paperwork required previously with EU trade, and computers have changed things so an SME is still in a much better position now than they would be in the 80/90s pre internet, relying on faxes etc...

We were in the EU system for nearly 40 years, one that changed and evolved during that time as well, and the costs of those changes at times passed onto customers.

 

[mack341]

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Oh dear what a non surprise. The neoliberal people in thrall to corporations and WEF all see eye to eye.


One Whitehall source said: ‘Jeremy has long been a huge admirer of Tony Blair. You could see it in the Chatham House conversation. It was a real love-in.

‘When Blair was critical of Brexit, there was no push back from Jeremy.’ (Hunt is a Remainer.)