Brexit - whats the difference.....

"In hindsight, do you think Southgate was right letting 2 teenagers take crucial penalties in the Euro 2020-1 final?"

That's funny because before reading your post, I thought 'joining the EU is like signing up for a championship team'

You will never make the premiership by being part of the EU. Playing for China or the States is the only choice unless you take a back seat and do a Craig Allardyce selling your wares to the big teams.

UK solidarity as still one of the financial powerhouses of the world is the only way forward for me. Why join a team heading for relegation?! :)
 
If we'd stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union none of this stuff would be happening, but taking back control was deemed more important.

We can choose to waive some or all checks on stuff coming into the UK, that's our prerogative, although not exactly consistent with strengthening our borders against dastardly foreign imposters. (And yes, whilst no standards have officially changed, if an unscrupulous supplier in the EU had some dodgy shit they were looking to get rid of and still make a profit on, which country do you think they'd choose to send it to? Why, the one that's just waving the trucks through Customs, of course.)

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This was from a one-off inspection done within a 24 hour period. Imagine the amount of dodgy meat that gets through British customs on a daily basis when there are no inspections taking place. The exact opposite of ‘taking back control’.
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At least you can always rely on Daniel Hannan to be completely wrong about everything.

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Lucky then that ropey imported carcasses were never really a thing whilst we were in the EU, with all them thorough vetting processes.

Like, I dunno, little inconveniences like the horse meat scandal of 2013. I take it we'd already left the EU by then? :laugh:
 
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This was from a one-off inspection done within a 24 hour period. Imagine the amount of dodgy meat that gets through British customs on a daily basis when there are no inspections taking place. The exact opposite of ‘taking back control’.
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At least you can always rely on Daniel Hannan to be completely wrong about everything.

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It is bad and the only answer is to hire/train more frontline staff to carry out checks but afaik the customs/border force has been trimmed over the years.

Also means there are unscrupulous buyers and purveyors of this shite bad meat to the british public, so they need to be rooted out too. I'm guessing but wager they're not british, so another unaccounted for benefit of open door britain [the policy since blair and carried on by the tories].

Edit: Also failure of the EU to regulate its food production sector, we should be able to say, this late in the game after all the billions they've had over the years "EU = trusted exporter"
 
I'd also like to add that popping into Tesco Direct post-gym I made sure to grab myself some crisps.

These were part of Tesco's Finest range, namely pigs in blankets flavour!! Couldn't fucking believe it!!

The missus can have those, as I'm not really a crisps kinda guy. But I will stress to her that we should seize the moment, and cherish life, as she crumbs up the wooden flooring
 
Lucky then that ropey imported carcasses were never really a thing whilst we were in the EU, with all them thorough vetting processes.

Like, I dunno, little inconveniences like the horse meat scandal of 2013. I take it we'd already left the EU by then? :laugh:

First off that was a mislabelling issue, not a safety issue. (Horse meat is perfectly safe for human consumption, but it must be labelled as horse, or containing horse.) Obviously it was still wrong and it shouldn't have happened, but remember that the meat was processed in the UK and turned into human food products here in the UK.

Secondly the EU tightened up a whole raft of regulations in the aftermath that all member states had to abide by, so it couldn't happen again. Or at least. was very unlikely to. (Remember, no one's saying the EU was/is perfect and that nothing bad can happen when you're a member.)

This is literally what PROJECT FEAR was warning about years ago, and more recently when the UK government made it clear it had neither the staff or the inclination to police the UK's border properly. Once again, project reality.

And to mack, of course there are unscrupulous buyers and sellers of dodgy meat, the point is we didn't have to worry about them as an EU member, but once we TOOK BACK CONTROL it became our responsibility to look after our borders and what/who crosses them, and we're not doing it. Also, the spivs selling this shite know that the UK is the one country in Europe that's basically just waving stuff across its border, so where do you think they're going to send it?

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Watching The Telegraph disappear into a vortex of its own confusion, as it tries to explain away why the thing it advocated for has turned into a giant turd is nothing if not instructional as to a manifestation of delusion.

Anyway, today's explanation is that Truss and Kwarteng were thwarted by some sort of unspoken Remainery anti-growth blob (the actual free markets remember, fact fans), and now we should just rejoin the EU because there's no point being outside it.

Now clearly this reasoning is insane, as it implies that the best thing to do was just let everyone freeze to death (and lest we forget that the markets WEREN'T spooked by the energy cost guarantee programme, they were spooked by the tax giveaway for the rich), but hey, however people get to the conclusion that we're better off in the EU is fine by me.

The Telegraph is routinely running - (often rather begrudgingly) - articles along these lines now, which says to me the narrative is decisively shifting on this.

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'That Remoaner conspiracy in full' - an excellent thread.

Should anyone wish to go down the 'Brexit was hijacked by Remoaners' line at any point, this provides a comprehensive answer. 'Cause we really are into intergalactic 4D chess stuff here.

 
Watch it and weep. This is a dispassionate, fact-based, evidence-led analysis of the impacts of Brexit on the UK economy. Yes it features those pesky 'experts' we're all so fed up with, and it's got the data and figures to support its conclusions. It's not uncritical of the Remainer side, and also (correctly!) points out that the Labour Party is still being fundamentally dishonest about Brexit too.

It was commissioned and produced by the Financial Times, so not some left wing pinko Remoaner outfit that might eat tofu, not know what a woman is and be woke.

There is only one conclusion left to draw, Brexit has fucked the UK, the only variable now is how long it will take to un-fuck it.

As the documentary makes clear, Brexit was achieved by the old, the young never wanted it in the first place, and they will demand change at some point.

I would hope that the UK rejoins the EU in my lifetime, if I manage an average lifespan, I think it will.

 
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Tory backer and investor Guy Hands says the UK economy is doomed, that Brexit is a disaster, and he sees the IMF needing to bail the UK out unless the terrible Brexit deal is revisited in the not too distant future. Also says the Tories are not fit to run the country in their current state.

Remember this is a Tory supporter speaking.



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I wonder if Sunak will have the courage to do this, or indeed, the sense of self-preservation to do it. There is no good way to get a UK economic recovery underway whilst we're hobbled by being outside the Single Market and Customs Union. Labour are too timid to advocate for it, and the Lib Dems aren't in power. The Tories have two more years and they need some wins before the next general election.

Would anyone really strongly object at this point? Would anyone really care? We don't have to rejoin the EU, it doesn't even need to be a precursor to doing so, yes there are compromises but the economic benefits are fucking huge.

Honestly, I'd get behind Sunak myself if he had the balls to do this, since Starmer is too scared to try and make the case for it.

4-5% UK GDP is sat on the table in front of us, huge boost to the economy, huge boost in tax revenues, someone just needs to have the spine to make the case to pick it up.

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Watch it and weep. This is a dispassionate, fact-based, evidence-led analysis of the impacts of Brexit on the UK economy. Yes it features those pesky 'experts' we're all so fed up with, and it's got the data and figures to support its conclusions. It's not uncritical of the Remainer side, and also (correctly!) points out that the Labour Party is still being fundamentally dishonest about Brexit too.

It was commissioned and produced by the Financial Times, so not some left wing pinko Remoaner outfit that might eat tofu, not know what a woman is and be woke.

There is only one conclusion left to draw, Brexit has fucked the UK, the only variable now is how long it will take to un-fuck it.

As the documentary makes clear, Brexit was achieved by the old, the young never wanted it in the first place, and they will demand change at some point.

I would hope that the UK rejoins the EU in my lifetime, if I manage an average lifespan, I think it will.



This has now been viewed over three million times. There is no 'counter-argument' because it's the truth, it supports every point with evidence, facts and figures.

We need an honest debate about this, about the compromises required to get the UK back in the Single Market and Customs Union, we can't fix the UK economy whilst there's a hole in the boat, and pretending that the hole doesn't exist won't make it go away.

The lie at the core of Brexit was of the trade-off required, in simple terms, for every turn of the dial in favour of 'sovereignty', the dial marked 'economy' had to be turned the other way. Now that's a debate it's fine to have, and some might have accepted the economic damage because the sovereignty argument won out, but of course we were told we could have both, more sovereignty and 'more economy', if you will. Johnson literally said that we will have our cake and eat it. (And Donald Tusk then had to explain that we could test this in real life, by acquiring a piece of cake, eating it, and then seeing if we still had a piece of cake.)

It's a persuasive argument for sure, 'HEY FOLKS, FREE EVERYTHING, NO DOWNSIDES, VOTE FOR THIS' - the only problem with it, and it's quite a big one, is that it always was, and still is, a big fat lie.

You can see the denial on display in this thread, just pick any page from any 'time period' as it were, and you can see the sands shifting, as each Brexit lie is revealed for what it is. And here we are now, in the crumbling ruins of a temple built of bullshit, on the shifting sands of nonsense - and we need to call time on it.

I honestly think the only variable at this point is how long it takes for Brexit to start to be reversed, and that variable will determine how much damage the UK sustains in the interim.

Single Market and Customs Union are the main ones, they fix the economic damage, rejoining the EU can be 10 or 20 years or whatever.

Like I said, if you voted for Brexit, fine. My dad voted for it, my in-laws would have voted for it if they'd been eligible. But it was a mistake, and a mistake can only be fixed once we've acknowledged it.

We need to get to that point, for the good of the UK.
 
To rejoin the Customs Union would be pragmatic if it could be done without compromising the ideals of independence. It would also solve the Ulster-RoI nonsense overnight and take a lot of wind out of the vandal Sturgeon's sails. On balance, I'd rather see a strong United Kingdom in the CU than a broken one outside it. Plus it would help small businesses better than any tax adjustments.

Maybe Sunak will tentatively look at it, if I were Stormer I'd be considering the CU as a fixed part of the manifesto, giving the likely whopping win he'd have in a GE. I don't think he'd find it as hard a sell as he thinks.
 
If we joined the SM and CU wouldn't that really be 90% back in, I mean what isn't covered by those two areas?
To rejoin the Customs Union would be pragmatic if it could be done without compromising the ideals of independence. It would also solve the Ulster-RoI nonsense overnight and take a lot of wind out of the vandal Sturgeon's sails. On balance, I'd rather see a strong United Kingdom in the CU than a broken one outside it. Plus it would help small businesses better than any tax adjustments.

Maybe Sunak will tentatively look at it, if I were Stormer I'd be considering the CU as a fixed part of the manifesto, giving the likely whopping win he'd have in a GE. I don't think he'd find it as hard a sell as he thinks.

SM and CU membership would definitely mean many compromises and a large part of adherence to EU rules, but the UK would remain outside the EU as a body so we wouldn't have rejoined.

I'd be the first to admit it'd be a tough sell, but that's not my job :D That's up to a politician who has the courage to tell the truth to the people of the UK that Brexit is breaking us economically and it needs to be revisited. (And as dunover notes, it may literally break the UK apart at this rate too.) I'm becoming increasingly unimpressed with Starmer on many issues and I can't even remotely see him having the balls required on Brexit, so it looks like our only hope here is Sunak, but his hands are tied by the loony right fringe of his party who will bring him down at the first hint of a 'BREXIT BETRAYAL'.

We're still without a functioning government in Northern Ireland thanks to the DUP, who definitely win the century's gold star award for blowing your own feet off when it comes to Brexit.

As it was very well put by Fintan O'Toole:

At the heart of the political crisis in Northern Ireland is the DUP’s inability to take responsibility for the effects of its passionate embrace of the
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ultras in London. For the DUP gave birth to the protocol. Its horror is repugnance at the face of its own child. It is this weird reality that makes Northern Ireland currently ungovernable under the arrangements agreed in 1998.


There were – and still are – only three ways to deal with the consequences of Northern Ireland being forced, against the will of its people, out of the EU. One is a hard border on the island of Ireland, which is unacceptable. The second is what Theresa May ended up with in the infamous “backstop” – all of the UK would in effect remain in the single market and the customs union, thus avoiding the emergence of different trading regimes on the two sides of the Irish Sea. The DUP got this outcome from May. The party rewarded her by helping to bring her down and put Boris Johnson in power.

Because of this insanity, there was only one remaining possibility: a so-called border down the Irish Sea. The DUP hates it – and, from a unionist perspective, it is quite right to do so. But by helping to bring down May, it made it entirely inevitable. This, of course, it can never admit. It is left to rail against its own creation and to use the only power it now has, which is to paralyse politics in Northern Ireland.


I have to say that Theresa May's backstop is looking pretty good right now, and I suspect it would to the DUP as well, their stupidity on Brexit still staggers me to this day.

The only way I can see Sunak saving the next general election is if he can point to an ongoing economic turnaround for the UK, and we ain't gonna get that outside the SM and CU, and I can't see Sunak doing it, so we're looking at a likely Labour government that will hopefully start the conversation with the country once it has a decent majority and five years to work with.

Two years further down the line it will be even more obvious than it is now that there are no Brexit benefits and there never will be, polling consistently shows that the people of the UK think Brexit was wrong by a margin of about 60/40, and it's slowly widening all the time.

Also I think Covid, the war in Ukraine, and the recent reaction of the markets to Truss's psycho mini-budget have reminded a lot of people that we live in a complex and interconnected world, there is no such thing as 'going it alone' anymore, what happens elsewhere in the world has an effect here, and we can't just opt out of that reality. And with Russia's terrible, murderous aggression in Ukraine, we are reminded in the starkest possible fashion that other European countries are our friends and our allies - and that maybe being a bit closer to them wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

The thing for me is that it feels inevitable at this point, we're going to end up back in the CU and SM pretty much because we have to be, and from that will probably follow rejoining the EU, especially as those who voted for Brexit get old and die (sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true) and those who never wanted it in the first place become the political majority in the country - against that backdrop you can logically deduce that we may as well just get it done then, but of course it won't be that simple.
 
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This is a painful watch, it's a German documentary focusing on the fishing communities of Grimsby and Hull, two locations which famously voted heavily in favour of Brexit and were then destroyed by it.

And they did so with the best of intentions, they believed the lies, they honestly thought they'd be better off, they thought they were voting for a better future for themselves and their children. It's honestly quite heart-breaking to see. It's in German but it has subs and all the interviews are in English.

 

What impact is Brexit having on the UK economy? [briefings for britain 13 oct 2022]​


Part of the summary:

With UK growth remaining solid, it is significant that some of those who were critical of the vote to leave have retreated from catastrophe scenarios towards the cherry-picking of data, the tortuous use of ‘counterfactuals’, and the selective deployment of forecasts (from organisations such as the OECD and IMF) as if they were already facts.

The doppelgänger models cannot separate out the impact of Brexit from other factors, including Covid, fiscal policy, and the position of each economy is in the cycle. It is not unusual for any individual country to diverge significantly from an average of many countries over relatively short periods. Moreover, the choice of comparison countries for the UK in these models is often inappropriate and keeps changing. It is more informative to compare the UK directly with the major advanced and especially larger EU economies.

The lack of evidence for significant harms from Brexit so far is important because it was always likely that most costs would be upfront and relatively visible, whereas most benefits would take longer to come through. The main consequence of Brexit was always the increased freedom to develop distinctive economic policies. Success or failure will depend on how productive these policies prove to be.

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From further reading of another article there, a custom's union would involve us applying an EU tariff on all non-EU imports to the UK, and then passing that money to the EU [minus admin costs]. And the EU would negotiate our trade deals with the rest of the world in effect.

I think 'made in England/uk' still counts for something, and there are plenty of customers out there. The implementation of Brexit is where the problem lies imo; every firm that exports to europe [or hopes to] needs to be surveyed - what are the actual issues they face, how has that impacted the sales figures etc..all that information collated and analysed [without bias] and then looked into by HOC committees and the chamber.

I did read another article elsewhere on uk manufacturing, and it said we're quite a big part of the supply line rather the principal manufacturer and 'just in time' production process, and obviously new arduous checks/paperwork could disrupt that.
 

What impact is Brexit having on the UK economy? [briefings for britain 13 oct 2022]​


Part of the summary:

With UK growth remaining solid, it is significant that some of those who were critical of the vote to leave have retreated from catastrophe scenarios towards the cherry-picking of data, the tortuous use of ‘counterfactuals’, and the selective deployment of forecasts (from organisations such as the OECD and IMF) as if they were already facts.

The doppelgänger models cannot separate out the impact of Brexit from other factors, including Covid, fiscal policy, and the position of each economy is in the cycle. It is not unusual for any individual country to diverge significantly from an average of many countries over relatively short periods. Moreover, the choice of comparison countries for the UK in these models is often inappropriate and keeps changing. It is more informative to compare the UK directly with the major advanced and especially larger EU economies.

The lack of evidence for significant harms from Brexit so far is important because it was always likely that most costs would be upfront and relatively visible, whereas most benefits would take longer to come through. The main consequence of Brexit was always the increased freedom to develop distinctive economic policies. Success or failure will depend on how productive these policies prove to be.

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From further reading of another article there, a custom's union would involve us applying an EU tariff on all non-EU imports to the UK, and then passing that money to the EU [minus admin costs]. And the EU would negotiate our trade deals with the rest of the world in effect.

I think 'made in England/uk' still counts for something, and there are plenty of customers out there. The implementation of Brexit is where the problem lies imo; every firm that exports to europe [or hopes to] needs to be surveyed - what are the actual issues they face, how has that impacted the sales figures etc..all that information collated and analysed [without bias] and then looked into by HOC committees and the chamber.

I did read another article elsewhere on uk manufacturing, and it said we're quite a big part of the supply line rather the principal manufacturer and 'just in time' production process, and obviously new arduous checks/paperwork could disrupt that.

So another one of those 'The benefits are just around the corner, honest mate', combined with 'Yeah but it's not really been done correctly has it?' type arguments.

Brexit is like the unreliable dodgy half-mate you've lent £50 to, and every time you ask him for the £50 back, he promises you that he's due to get paid any day now, and some other people owe him a bit of money, and he'll pay you back REALLY SOON HONEST and even give you a bit of interest. But of course we know he never, ever does, you never get that £50 back.

Honestly mack, I'll bet you a pound to a penny that two years from now, as the general election looms, there'll still be outfits like 'BriefingsForBritain' (I had a Google on where your article came from) insisting that Brexit is just on the cusp of being great and we simply need to give it a bit more time - at which point we'll be fully eight years out from the referendum.

This is the thing with Brexit, it can only exist satisfactorily in the realms of fantasy, because every time it makes contact with reality, it becomes profoundly and immediately obvious what a bag of wank it is, so we're now in the 'post-Brexit fantasy world' whereby Brexit has happened, and the only reason it hasn't done all the cool stuff we were promised it would, is that it just needs a few more years to come right, and if that never happens, we'll blame Remoaners, or something.
 
Heard "Brexit is like x" for the last time now . After struggling to read entire posts for a while now, I personally can't read this thread any longer. My educative contributions shall forever cease. For those thst got this far, and need some visual support, here's a pretty woman. Gl.

I completely understand, Brexit is arguably the biggest but also the most tedious and boring mistake the UK has ever made.

It's hard to remain even remotely interested in this stuff, because all the minutiae of how it makes everything a little bit worse by 1-5% is irksome to follow, and even less compelling.

But it matters, it matters because it's hurting the UK every single day, and until the mistake is acknowledged and rectified, the UK will continue to bleed.

Wounds only start to heal once we accept the locations in which we're damaged, and we accept that we need to be treated, Brexit has wounded the UK, I hope we don't wait too long before we start to heal.
 
This is a painful watch, it's a German documentary focusing on the fishing communities of Grimsby and Hull, two locations which famously voted heavily in favour of Brexit and were then destroyed by it.

And they did so with the best of intentions, they believed the lies, they honestly thought they'd be better off, they thought they were voting for a better future for themselves and their children. It's honestly quite heart-breaking to see. It's in German but it has subs and all the interviews are in English.


All very good, but these areas were in terminal decline LONG before red wall and Brexit. This is why they returned Tory MP's because for decades thay had voted Labour who had frankly taken those consituencies for granted and done bugger-all to make things better. So they had nowt to lose, as the Tories could hardly do anything less.

The video seems to impress upon the viewer that the dereliction and poverty there is due to Brexit without making any attempt to correct that.
 
All very good, but these areas were in terminal decline LONG before red wall and Brexit. This is why they returned Tory MP's because for decades thay had voted Labour who had frankly taken those consituencies for granted and done bugger-all to make things better. So they had nowt to lose, as the Tories could hardly do anything less.

The video seems to impress upon the viewer that the dereliction and poverty there is due to Brexit without making any attempt to correct that.

The video makes it clear that for many people who were still managing to cling on, Brexit was the final nail in the coffin. Yes those areas have been deprived for decades, the rot really setting in during the 1980s. New Labour did actually make improvements, and areas such as Grimsby received many EU grants (as one of the interviewees notes), which have all disappeared now.

Thing is once again dunover, and I appreciate this is all Brexiteers have left now, you're basically just back to, 'Nothing to do with Brexit mate', there isn't, and can't be, even remotely the vaguest pretence that Brexit has made anything better. For anyone. At all. Ever.

All the interviewees say the same thing, they specifically voted for Brexit in 2016 and then for Johnson in 2019 to GET BREXIT DONE because they had believed the lies, they thought they'd get their fish back, when of course Johnson just threw them under the bus along with everyone else, and also threw up massive trade barriers with the EU that makes selling the produce they do have even harder.
 
Rather ugly scenes in the Commons this evening with Cruella using the type of language that I'd really hoped wouldn't be a feature of UK politics in the year 2022. She's also telling us that the asylum system is 'broken', so I guess she'll be really cross when she works out who's been in power for the last twelve years.

It's all a bit much for poor old Nigel too, hopefully he'll be able to seek some solace in that magnificent red, white and blue gin he's been hawking.

2016 - CONTROL OUR BORDERS

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2022 - CRISIS! EMERGENCY!

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So it turns out that ripping up the agreements you had with other EU countries on this stuff and antagonising them to the point of frustration isn't a great plan after all.

There is clearly an issue here, and this is what happens when you systematically shut down the legal and safe routes for asylum, a bit like prohibition and alcohol, you don't stop people wanting to drink, you just hand the whole thing over to ruthless criminal enterprises instead.

So up to now the Tories have had twelve years to try and get on top of this, and their own Home Secretary literally just stood up in the Commons to admit they've shagged it, by the time of the next election they'll have had fourteen years, let's see where they're up to by then.
 
Iain Dale on LBC, a lifelong Conservative voter calling out Cruella for her terrible language in the Commons, and predicting she'll be gone soon.



Also, whatever you may think of the refugees/asylum seekers, the fact that a camp like this exists in the UK is absolutely abhorrent. They are human beings and they deserve to be treated as such.

There are now 4000+ people in a facility designed to accommodate 1600.

 

Don’t listen to the alarmist claims about Brexit and the economy [the times 31 oct]​


Brexit has had a catastrophic impact on the British economy, to judge by recent comments from Mark Carney. In an interview with the Financial Times, the former governor of the Bank of England said that “in 2016 the British economy was 90 per cent the size of Germany’s. Now it is less than 70 per cent.”

Wow. A 20-percentage-point decline in six years. That really looks terrible. Unsurprisingly, this has been widely requoted around the world as a measure of the damage caused by Brexit.

If Carney’s analysis of the past was awful, Guy Hands’ view of the future was equally alarming. The private equity investor recently forecast that unless the UK renegotiates Brexit it will become the sick man of Europe and eventually will have to get a bailout from the International Monetary Fund.

Hard stuff, indeed. But fair? Er . . . no. Carney’s comment was very misleading. The fall in the relative value of the UK economy he cites is due to currency movements, not the underlying performance. Despite the impact of Brexit, which some economists estimate has knocked at least 4 per cent off the UK’s GDP, it has still grown faster than Germany’s since 2016, as Carney must know.

Exchange rates are important, of course. But, to state the obvious, they go up and down. On the same basis, the value of the Japanese economy has fallen by a fifth compared with the United States in the past year. The pound was very strong at the start of 2016 and fell after the Brexit referendum. If Carney had gone back to 2013, when the effective sterling exchange rate was similar to today’s, the decline in the relative size of the UK economy, even on his measure, disappears.

But many people who read Carney’s comment wouldn’t realise that. They would assume he meant that the UK was somehow producing 20 percentage points less relative to Germany. That was clearly how it was interpreted by some anti-Brexit commentators.

As for Hands, few mainstream economists think there is the remotest risk that the UK will need the help of the IMF because of Brexit. The UK’s predicament is very different from 1976 when Britain last went cap-in-hand to the IMF.

...Bankers say that the relentless, hyperbolic attacks on Brexit are further eroding confidence in the UK economy.

One group of investors that reckons UK companies are good value are American private equity firms. Many look through the cloud of toxic sentiment and see great companies at very cheap prices, according to a banker who has just returned from a round of talks with US investors.

Bankers are always forecasting a flurry of takeovers just around the corner. This time they may be right. In recent years there has been a wave of British companies falling to overseas buyers and it seems likely that once markets stabilise the bids will start again. At that point, vulnerable UK companies will not thank those who have been peddling alarmist claims about Brexit and the British economy.

David Wighton, a former business editor of The Times, is a columnist for Financial News
 
Brexit isn’t to blame for our current problems; it is still an opportunity

By Larry Elliott:

The UK economy is clearly struggling. Growth has stalled, interest rates are going up and the Treasury is softening up the public for a new dose of austerity measures.

For some, the explanation for these horrors is simple: Britain is paying the price for its decision to leave the European Union. Forget the impact of the most severe pandemic in a century. Forget what Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has done to energy prices. Brexit is the “gorilla in the room”.

Really? Or is this a classic case of confirmation bias, where someone starts with a preconceived view and then finds evidence to back up their argument? As in: I always said Brexit would be a disaster; the economy is in a bad way; Brexit is to blame and here’s the proof.

...All sorts of dire predictions were made for the UK economy at the time of the Brexit vote: house prices would tumble, unemployment would rise by 500,000 and the economy would sink into an immediate recession. None of it happened. The economy has trundled on.

Mark Carney, the former governor of the Bank of England, takes a
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. He has argued that Britain’s economy was 90% the size of Germany’s before Brexit but only 70% the size of it today.

Prof Jonathan Portes [someone Chop has quoted favourably from in the past], an economist at King’s College London who is no fan of Brexit, has described this comparison as
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because it involves measuring the value of economies at prevailing exchange rates. This is not the normal method economists use to assess the relative performance of countries, because comparisons are heavily influenced by movements in currencies.

The Briefings for Brexit paper (a comprehensive piece of work, worth reading whichever side of the argument you are on) says these counterfactual analyses are flawed. It concludes: “A careful reading of the evidence shows that while there is little evidence yet that Brexit is doing much to help the UK economy, neither is there evidence of much harm.”

That rings true. There has been no Armageddon. The economy is adapting, even if that process has been made more difficult by the pandemic, the war, and Liz Truss’ brief period as prime minister. If the effects of Brexit have tended to be exaggerated, then the impact of the pandemic and the lockdowns that accompanied it have tended to be downplayed, perhaps because the most fervent anti-Brexiters also wanted longer and more stringent lockdowns.

After six years, the argument for Brexit remains what it always was: an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently. Whether that opportunity will be seized or squandered remains to be seen, but there is no gorilla in the room, just a mouse with a loud squeak.

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Larry Elliott has been consistently wrong on Brexit and he continues to be so to this day, he's nailed his colours to the mast and seems incapable of revising his opinion in the face of endless mountains of evidence.

Note how he doesn't explain what any of the Brexit 'opportunities' actually are, simply insists that they exist, despite no one ever having managed to actually identify any.

It's a poor piece from the worst kind of Brexiteer, one who refuses to countenance the possibility he might have been wrong.
 
Brexit isn’t to blame for our current problems; it is still an opportunity

By Larry Elliott:

The UK economy is clearly struggling. Growth has stalled, interest rates are going up and the Treasury is softening up the public for a new dose of austerity measures.

For some, the explanation for these horrors is simple: Britain is paying the price for its decision to leave the European Union. Forget the impact of the most severe pandemic in a century. Forget what Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has done to energy prices. Brexit is the “gorilla in the room”.

Really? Or is this a classic case of confirmation bias, where someone starts with a preconceived view and then finds evidence to back up their argument? As in: I always said Brexit would be a disaster; the economy is in a bad way; Brexit is to blame and here’s the proof.

...All sorts of dire predictions were made for the UK economy at the time of the Brexit vote: house prices would tumble, unemployment would rise by 500,000 and the economy would sink into an immediate recession. None of it happened. The economy has trundled on.

Mark Carney, the former governor of the Bank of England, takes a
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. He has argued that Britain’s economy was 90% the size of Germany’s before Brexit but only 70% the size of it today.

Prof Jonathan Portes [someone Chop has quoted favourably from in the past], an economist at King’s College London who is no fan of Brexit, has described this comparison as
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because it involves measuring the value of economies at prevailing exchange rates. This is not the normal method economists use to assess the relative performance of countries, because comparisons are heavily influenced by movements in currencies.

The Briefings for Brexit paper (a comprehensive piece of work, worth reading whichever side of the argument you are on) says these counterfactual analyses are flawed. It concludes: “A careful reading of the evidence shows that while there is little evidence yet that Brexit is doing much to help the UK economy, neither is there evidence of much harm.”

That rings true. There has been no Armageddon. The economy is adapting, even if that process has been made more difficult by the pandemic, the war, and Liz Truss’ brief period as prime minister. If the effects of Brexit have tended to be exaggerated, then the impact of the pandemic and the lockdowns that accompanied it have tended to be downplayed, perhaps because the most fervent anti-Brexiters also wanted longer and more stringent lockdowns.

After six years, the argument for Brexit remains what it always was: an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently. Whether that opportunity will be seized or squandered remains to be seen, but there is no gorilla in the room, just a mouse with a loud squeak.

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There's a decent rebuttal to this here by Chris Grey.

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And also this magnificent takedown of Brexit as a whole.

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I see Sunak is at least making some decent overtures to our friends in Europe, and has reached out to Macron, the two of them seem to get on.

As ever though, until the subject of getting back into the Single Market and Customs Union gets properly back on the table in a political sense, the UK is basically shagged economically, there will be no economic recovery and all we have to look forward to are spending cuts, tax rises, and the slow bleeding out of the UK economy.
 
As for the EU being 'worried' about Truss, yeah everyone said that about Johnson too, and we all saw how that one panned out. The EU were so scared of him that they negotiated a deal that was great for them, terrible for the UK, and left the Tories so desperate for trade deal wins that they've been selling UK interests down the river ever since (for example UK farmers, with the incredibly lop-sided Australian and NZ trade deals).

And speaking of unelected bureaucrats, remind me again please who voted for the astonishingly awful Lord David Frost?

As ever with Brexit, reality catches up with it eventually.

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Former environment secretary George Eustice has savaged the UK's free trade deal with Australia and criticised Liz Truss's role in negotiating it.

Mr Eustice, who helped secure the agreement, told a Commons debate that it was "not actually a very good deal for the UK".
It was the first post-Brexit deal negotiated from scratch.

But Mr Eustice argued it gave away "too much" after the then trade secretary Ms Truss "shattered" the UK's negotiation.

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It's hard to see how Brexit won't slowly wreck the UK's economy over time.

The penny has dropped for a majority of people in the UK already, i.e. there's a clear and growing majority of people in the UK who (1) Think Brexit was a mistake and (2) Want to see a return to at least the Single Market and Customs Union and from that (3) To rejoin the EU properly.

With every month that passes it's becoming increasingly clear that there are no economic benefits, just losses, and that this will never change. The shitshow with the migrants crossing the channel (and the loss of The Dublin Regulation) amply demonstrates that Brexit has failed on even its most base of declarations, that we would 'take back control of our borders'.

Politics still needs to catch up with this, the politicians are lagging behind the people on this count, and I very much include Labour in this who are being shamefully timid, still talking about 'Making Brexit Work', which is up there with insisting that you're going to make a car with square wheels, no engine and milkshake in the petrol tank 'work'.

There's a great article about it here:

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Today's 'No shit Sherlock' moment, but at least it's good to see it be discussed publicly. As I've been saying for months and months, the first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging that it exists, and to be honest about what it is.

It's Hunt's financial statement today, remember, as he raises taxes and cuts spending. that there's £100bn of annual UK economic activity literally just sat on the table, inside the Single Market and Customs Union.

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1668672123694.webp


Bailey said UK GDP remained about 0.7% below its pre-Covid level, compared with much stronger recoveries in the eurozone and in the US, where he said the levels of GDP had recovered to about 2.1% and 4.2% above pre-pandemic levels.

“It’s a dramatic difference,” he said. Asked whether
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was contributing to the country’s underperformance, he said that “there is an effect” from leaving the EU, including a “long-run downshift” in the level of productivity.

“It’s not [an impact] we’ve been surprised by. As a public official I’m neutral on Brexit per se, but I’m not neutral in saying these are what we think are the most likely economic effects of it,” he said.

----------


Swati Dhingra said Brexit was holding back UK trade and driving up inflation by adding to the cost of imported food and other products. “It’s undeniable now that we’re seeing a much bigger slowdown [in trade] in the UK compared to the rest of the world,” she said.

She said post-Brexit trade barriers had led to a
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, alongside a negative impact on wages and living standards in Britain, adding: “We’re definitely underperforming compared to our peers.”
 
Today's 'No shit Sherlock' moment, but at least it's good to see it be discussed publicly. As I've been saying for months and months, the first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging that it exists, and to be honest about what it is.

It's Hunt's financial statement today, remember, as he raises taxes and cuts spending. that there's £100bn of annual UK economic activity literally just sat on the table, inside the Single Market and Customs Union.

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View attachment 175902

Bailey said UK GDP remained about 0.7% below its pre-Covid level, compared with much stronger recoveries in the eurozone and in the US, where he said the levels of GDP had recovered to about 2.1% and 4.2% above pre-pandemic levels.

“It’s a dramatic difference,” he said. Asked whether
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
was contributing to the country’s underperformance, he said that “there is an effect” from leaving the EU, including a “long-run downshift” in the level of productivity.


“It’s not [an impact] we’ve been surprised by. As a public official I’m neutral on Brexit per se, but I’m not neutral in saying these are what we think are the most likely economic effects of it,” he said.

----------


Swati Dhingra said Brexit was holding back UK trade and driving up inflation by adding to the cost of imported food and other products. “It’s undeniable now that we’re seeing a much bigger slowdown [in trade] in the UK compared to the rest of the world,” she said.

She said post-Brexit trade barriers had led to a
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, alongside a negative impact on wages and living standards in Britain, adding: “We’re definitely underperforming compared to our peers.”
How many years are we down the line now and your still crying??

Get a grip, with the cost of living crisis I am surprised you can afford the tissues at the rate you use them??
 
How many years are we down the line now and your still crying??

Get a grip, with the cost of living crisis I am surprised you can afford the tissues at the rate you use them??

I'm not crying for myself, but I'm sad that the UK has chosen to hurt itself in this way, the cost of living crisis is exacerbated by Brexit, it's making it worse. But you just keep on with the emojis, if you can get paid one pound for every emoji you post, you'll only have to post one hundred billion of them to make up for what Brexit is costing the UK economy every single year we're outside the Single Market and Customs Union.

The only reason that Hunt had to announce an austerity budget (after a grinding decade of austerity) was because of the economic damage of Brexit.

OH BUT COVID. OH BUT UKRAINE. OH BUT THE EVIL PIXIES.

All these other countries had Covid, all these other countries have the war in Ukraine, all these other countries may or may not have had evil pixies, what none of them had - is Brexit.

1668799454310.webp
 
I had to laugh today when another expert on BBC News clearly stated the root of the lack of productivity and growth we've experienced started in 2007 when Browns financial reforms were actioned. I was drawn to it because when he piped up I thought, 'Here we go, BREXIT blah blah...' but was shocked. Of course, in Chopley-world this expert would clearly be less informed/intelligent/neutral than his favourites...:thumbsup:
 
I had to laugh today when another expert on BBC News clearly stated the root of the lack of productivity and growth we've experienced started in 2007 when Browns financial reforms were actioned. I was drawn to it because when he piped up I thought, 'Here we go, BREXIT blah blah...' but was shocked. Of course, in Chopley-world this expert would clearly be less informed/intelligent/neutral than his favourites...:thumbsup:

dunover's favourite expert, pictured yesterday.

1668803888889.webp
 
Still, I'm glad you found something funny in a budget that imposes £50bn of tax rises and spending cuts into an economy that is already teetering on the brink, those crazy Tories, a laugh a minute!
 
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...a much better way of looking at the potential costs to the UK economy of leaving the SM is to look at the economic benefits the UK gained as a member of the SM (and yes, there were benefits). Analysing the issue from this angle has the twin advantage of being based on actual historic outcomes not forecasts and, because the data was calculated before the Brexit vote, of being based on analysis uncoloured by people’s personal prejudices regarding Brexit.

For this purpose I have decided to look at the report entitled “20 years of the Single Market — Growth effects of the increasing European integration” published in 2014 and produced by The Bertelsmann Stiftung, an independent foundation based in Germany which is, and always has been, an advocate for accelerating the EU’s decision-making processes and promoting European integration.

All countries are reported to have gained in terms of GDP (except Greece), with German GDP estimated to be 2.3 per cent higher as a result of the SM adding €680 to GDP per person. As for the UK, the SM is reported to have added 1 per cent to GDP or €310 per person

What about income gains per inhabitant over time?

Bertelsmann Stiftung records that Denmark (closely followed by Germany) benefited the most from the SM in terms of individual income gains with average annual incomes €500 higher as a result of membership (cumulative over the twenty years, €10,400). In the UK, meanwhile, individual incomes are recorded as having benefited by just €10 a year (cumulative over the twenty years, €250)
 
I'm not crying for myself, but I'm sad that the UK has chosen to hurt itself in this way, the cost of living crisis is exacerbated by Brexit, it's making it worse. But you just keep on with the emojis, if you can get paid one pound for every emoji you post, you'll only have to post one hundred billion of them to make up for what Brexit is costing the UK economy every single year we're outside the Single Market and Customs Union.

The only reason that Hunt had to announce an austerity budget (after a grinding decade of austerity) was because of the economic damage of Brexit.

OH BUT COVID. OH BUT UKRAINE. OH BUT THE EVIL PIXIES.

All these other countries had Covid, all these other countries have the war in Ukraine, all these other countries may or may not have had evil pixies, what none of them had - is Brexi

Still, I'm glad you found something funny in a budget that imposes £50bn of tax rises and spending cuts into an economy that is already teetering on the brink, those crazy Tories, a laugh a minute!
??
Obviously you spend to much time online trawling for favourable anti Brexit BS.

The cost of living crisis for example:

Get out, breath some air and go to the local McDonalds where you will find people queueing, Costas/Starbucks rammo. When a true cost of living crisis happens and not some manufactured media/Labour/Commie/anti-Tory whinging these places will be empty.

Its simple comrade, we live in the UK not Venezuela, just buy a plane ticket and you can jet to the place of your dreams.?
 
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...a much better way of looking at the potential costs to the UK economy of leaving the SM is to look at the economic benefits the UK gained as a member of the SM (and yes, there were benefits). Analysing the issue from this angle has the twin advantage of being based on actual historic outcomes not forecasts and, because the data was calculated before the Brexit vote, of being based on analysis uncoloured by people’s personal prejudices regarding Brexit.

For this purpose I have decided to look at the report entitled “20 years of the Single Market — Growth effects of the increasing European integration” published in 2014 and produced by The Bertelsmann Stiftung, an independent foundation based in Germany which is, and always has been, an advocate for accelerating the EU’s decision-making processes and promoting European integration.

All countries are reported to have gained in terms of GDP (except Greece), with German GDP estimated to be 2.3 per cent higher as a result of the SM adding €680 to GDP per person. As for the UK, the SM is reported to have added 1 per cent to GDP or €310 per person

What about income gains per inhabitant over time?

Bertelsmann Stiftung records that Denmark (closely followed by Germany) benefited the most from the SM in terms of individual income gains with average annual incomes €500 higher as a result of membership (cumulative over the twenty years, €10,400). In the UK, meanwhile, individual incomes are recorded as having benefited by just €10 a year (cumulative over the twenty years, €250)

The thing is mack, I'm citing sources such the OBR, OECD and IMF, along with a tranche of well researched and evidenced independent studies into the financial impact of Brexit, and you're coming back with, frankly, fringe opinions that have little to no support outside their own circle of nutcasery, the 'Patrick Minford' school of thought if you will. The same school of thought that recently managed to get (somehow.....) to the highest offices in the land in the form of Truss and Kwarteng - and immediately blew a fifty-five billion quid hole in the UK's finances that we're now being told has to be fixed with years of tax rises and spending cuts.

Derrick here seems to be very much part of the same clique, you only need to look at his articles to see where he's coming from, including a defence (lol) of Truss and Kwarteng -
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I'm sorry mack, but you just don't have the numbers to even remotely back any of this stuff up. Brexit has grievously wounded the UK from an economic perspective, to suggest otherwise is to reject objective reality, you may as well try to assert that the earth is flat.
 
??
Obviously you spend to much time online trawling for favourable anti Brexit BS.

The cost of living crisis for example:

Get out, breath some air and go to the local McDonalds where you will find people queueing, Costas/Starbucks rammo. When a true cost of living crisis happens and not some manufactured media/Labour/Commie/anti-Tory whinging these places will be empty.

Its simple comrade, we live in the UK not Venezuela, just buy a plane ticket and you can jet to the place of your dreams.?

Some people can afford takeaway food and hot drinks, crikey, guess everyone must be loaded then.

You've won me over with your compelling and evidence-based research, sir, I concede!
 
The thing is mack, I'm citing sources such the OBR, OECD and IMF, along with a tranche of well researched and evidenced independent studies into the financial impact of Brexit, and you're coming back with, frankly, fringe opinions that have little to no support outside their own circle of nutcasery, the 'Patrick Minford' school of thought if you will. The same school of thought that recently managed to get (somehow.....) to the highest offices in the land in the form of Truss and Kwarteng - and immediately blew a fifty-five billion quid hole in the UK's finances that we're now being told has to be fixed with years of tax rises and spending cuts.

Derrick here seems to be very much part of the same clique, you only need to look at his articles to see where he's coming from, including a defence (lol) of Truss and Kwarteng -
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I'm sorry mack, but you just don't have the numbers to even remotely back any of this stuff up. Brexit has grievously wounded the UK from an economic perspective, to suggest otherwise is to reject objective reality, you may as well try to assert that the earth is flat.

Okay can you provide a different, worked out figure for the amount of money individual incomes benefitted from the single market?

That's a proper website btw with paid writers, the article is in the public domain and people can challenge his figures and working out.

Have you looked up 'Bertelsmann Stiftung' the source of his data?

PS. How much did we gain/lose by not being part of the Euro single currency?
 
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I voted for Brexit to take back control of the borders. It's failed completely on that measure, and the crisis shows no signs of ever abating with the weak Conservative leadership and pro-immigration Labour opposition.

We don't make much any more, the economy being dominated by short-term thinking CEOs and retail, so there was never anything to be gained by "forging ahead" in the world economy outside of the single market.

So yeah, for those reasons, as much as I don't like the EU I've changed my mind and would vote to rejoin. If nothing else, we might be able to send some of the dinghy scroungers back to France.
 
I voted for Brexit to take back control of the borders. It's failed completely on that measure, and the crisis shows no signs of ever abating with the weak Conservative leadership and pro-immigration Labour opposition.

We don't make much any more, the economy being dominated by short-term thinking CEOs and retail, so there was never anything to be gained by "forging ahead" in the world economy outside of the single market.

So yeah, for those reasons, as much as I don't like the EU I've changed my mind and would vote to rejoin. If nothing else, we might be able to send some of the dinghy scroungers back to France.

I have a lot of respect for anyone who can say they called it wrong on Brexit. I mean that genuinely and sincerely.

We all make mistakes, we're human, I make mistakes on a regular basis, and yeah, it stings, and it takes courage to 'call yourself out', as it were.

I have also said, time and time again, that I don't blame anyone who voted for Brexit (my dad voted for it!), I blame the charlatans who peddled the lies about what Brexit would mean. (The loss of the Dublin Regulation, for example, was called out by those in the know well before we left, but was dismissed by those spear-heading the campaign as Project Fear.)
 
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The UK formally ceased to be a member state of the EU on the evening of 31st january 2020, and then entered a transitory period until 31st dec 2020.

The uk also entered lockdown in march 2020, and came out of that finally in mar 2022. Then we've seen a major war start in the east of europe and massive price inflation of energy and other essentials, plus increases in interest rates globally.

Only a delusional person would think this is a clean slate from which you can accurately assess and attribute factors to economic performance after and relating only to brexit.

That being said I cannot fully disagree with Zombie's opinion regarding where we fall short, and whether we have the kind of business leaders ready and willing to 'forge ahead' in the wider world.

Apparently we are very high up in the tech world of robotics and AI, just behind the US and China, things required for the fourth industrial revolution, could just be hype but a man [bond villain lookalike] called klaus schwab is very certain this is the next big thing and inevitable.
 

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