Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

So if the Eastern Europeans can (or rather are willing) to do it, why can't the British? £14/hr is above minimum wage and £30 per hour (I guess that this can be earned because of a bonus involved) is a very good wage by any standard.

Is it because the British are shy of doing that hard graft and rather sit at home in front of the telly being funded by the tax payer? Perhaps that needs addressing.

Well if you're a single parent living in Leeds, a couple of months working down in Cornwall isn't much good to you.

This is what made workers from other EU countries such a good match for this. They came in, did the work, were willing to live near to the work, and indeed worked very hard, very long hours, and got the job done.

The work we're talking about here is heavily regionalised, extremely seasonal, and requires the workers to basically live on-site, or pretty close to it. It's not a case of people being 'workshy' so much as for many of them it would be pretty much impossible to do it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Not helped by the fact you have a system that doesn't promote working - pretty sure people will know people who will have had to cut their hours/don't accept more just to make sure they 'don't lose money' because of the thresholds.

A good place to start there would be a decent basic living wage. A lot people on Universal Credit are in work (2.3 million at the last count), many people who are now using food banks are in full time employment, and yet a full time job, in the UK, in the year 2022, might not even pay enough to put food on the table.

If your choice is being on benefits and living in poverty, or being in work and living in poverty, then we can't really complain when people aren't queuing up for the second option.

 

[interlog]

Well if you're a single parent living in Leeds, a couple of months working down in Cornwall isn't much good to you.

This is what made workers from other EU countries such a good match for this. They came in, did the work, were willing to live near to the work, and indeed worked very hard, very long hours, and got the job done.

The work we're talking about here is heavily regionalised, extremely seasonal, and requires the workers to basically live on-site, or pretty close to it. It's not a case of people being 'workshy' so much as for many of them it would be pretty much impossible to do it.

So we don't have anybody in the UK that is willing to move to Cornwall for a few months and earn £30/hr? Find that extremely hard to believe

 

[interlog]

and yet a full time job, in the UK, in the year 2022, might not even pay enough to put food on the table.

Well that all depends on your life style. I know of plenty that claim they are struggling, yet spend plenty on luxeries that they, in reality, can ill afford.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I understand why a business might want to do that at a local level. It's a toss-up between unenthusiastic Brits being forced to turn up, or migrant workers, which due to their environment/upbringing/conditioning, tend to be more motivated.

I just think it's another issue being skirted around, and a proposed solution which may be good in the short term but actually does more harm in the long run. Reckon there are plenty of Brits on Universal Credit who could be chaperoned into a mini-bus each day around Devon and Cornwall. The wages come off their credits along with the bus fare.

Afraid I don't have a lot of faith in these people who are supposedly masters of industry and of superior intelligence, who don't plumb for more direct solutions, especially now we are out of the EU and we can make our own rules.

So we're going to start rounding people up and putting them to work against their will? There's kind of a word for that.......

As you note yourself bamber, we are now out of the EU, freedom of movement has ended, this is something that theoretically the UK could find a way, genuinely, to 'take back control' of - and yet Truss is proposing bringing in migrants to pick our crops for us.

Since we're in the Brexit thread, what was Brexit supposed to fix about this scenario then?

 

[bamberfishcake]

So we're going to start rounding people up and putting them to work against their will? There's kind of a word for that.......

As you note yourself bamber, we are now out of the EU, freedom of movement has ended, this is something that theoretically the UK could find a way, genuinely, to 'take back control' of - and yet Truss is proposing bringing in migrants to pick our crops for us.

Since we're in the Brexit thread, what was Brexit supposed to fix about this scenario then?

Give us the freedom to round up people and cart them off to work

Of course, we jest, but many a true word and all that - what's wrong with cutting benefits if people refuse to work, all the while encouraging progression for those who are as motivated as the migrants?

It's too easy to sit on your arse and get benefits, which again, you have to look at the root cause of all that, and it's the UK government and the poorly operated and terribly designed systems of control. Change the system, don't keep compensating for its flaws. That's very expensive.

 

[pinnit2014]

A good place to start there would be a decent basic living wage. A lot people on Universal Credit are in work (2.3 million at the last count), many people who are now using food banks are in full time employment, and yet a full time job, in the UK, in the year 2022, might not even pay enough to put food on the table.

If your choice is being on benefits and living in poverty, or being in work and living in poverty, then we can't really complain when people aren't queuing up for the second option.

Well i won't get into it now but having dealt with it first hand in my job i'd be VERY sceptical about quoting food bank use as a source for 'in poverty' - even then, there are various alternative definitions. And that's not even before we get into the politicisation of it all

No ones complaining about anything, simply raising a point that people (and i don't think it's all linked to the hourly wage - which is x2 what i was on when out of Uni) aren't exactly incentivised to work when on benefits.

 

[pinnit2014]

Well that all depends on your life style. I know of plenty that claim they are struggling, yet spend plenty on luxeries that they, in reality, can ill afford.

Exactly - we used to/still call places 'Spam Valley' in areas: the people will leverage themselves into so much debt they could only afford the aforementioned for dinner.

 

[pinnit2014]

So we're going to start rounding people up and putting them to work against their will? There's kind of a word for that.......

As you note yourself bamber, we are now out of the EU, freedom of movement has ended, this is something that theoretically the UK could find a way, genuinely, to 'take back control' of - and yet Truss is proposing bringing in migrants to pick our crops for us.

Since we're in the Brexit thread, what was Brexit supposed to fix about this scenario then?

Yeah there is:

Work

 

[paul7388]

A good place to start there would be a decent basic living wage. A lot people on Universal Credit are in work (2.3 million at the last count), many people who are now using food banks are in full time employment, and yet a full time job, in the UK, in the year 2022, might not even pay enough to put food on the table.

If your choice is being on benefits and living in poverty, or being in work and living in poverty, then we can't really complain when people aren't queuing up for the second option.

Oh please.

Reason so many are in work and on Universal Credit is the fact they work very little hours. That way they work as little as possible and get all the benefits as well. Reason because most are lazy Bastards.

Just look at street i live in. 18 houses. 2 have elderly people. 5 including my house have people that work. The rest in the street do sod all and live on benefits. And you know what the ones on benefits that get everything paid for them are better of than the ones out working full time and that is a fact. And the government keeps giving extra handouts to these people for cost of living as they are so poor. Yet the mugs that go out working get sod all and are worse off.

Yeah agreed jobs can not get filled in this country. Not because of lack off people, more because of workshy people that want to sit all day and get everything paid for them.

You want even more money, Get a sickline saying you are an alcoholic or junkie, no need to work now and get sickness benefit as well to pay your habit, Young girl in housing scheme turns 16 to 18, Get a job ... oh wait no get pregnant, get a house and benefits and never have to work a day in your life.

As for foodbanks yes might be a few that genuinely need it, But from what i see if someone can afford a bottle of vodka and 40 fags a day then they can feed themselves.

Honestly you admit yourself you are from a poor area. Well in last 30 years things have changed a lot, Nowadays so many people get everything for nothing and expect more.

Really wish you could leave your island Paradise and actually come back to one of the areas for a few months and see exactly what life is like, how lazy and want everything for nothing culture there really is instead of basing everything on biased articles you read and see online.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I dunno I just can't bring myself to think of people on benefits as being the problem here. (See also, immigrants.)

The UK government printed four hundred and fifty BILLION pounds during Covid and pretty much just siphoned it into the pockets of the already wealthy, but sure, the single mother living on benefits is the baddie.

We have people who live on benefits here, I don't get annoyed with them because they're not working (and there's no shortage of jobs here), the reason they're on benefits isn't really my business, it's between them and the government. Maybe they have a disability of some kind (remember not all disabilities are physical), maybe the single mother escaped from an abusive relationship, maybe someone just needs some time to get themselves back on track following a significant life event, or yes, maybe they simply don't want to work - but it's hardly as if they're living in the lap of luxury and driving around in a shiny new Porsche.

The fact that some of my taxes goes towards this doesn't bother me either, for me it's more important that everyone is able to live a life to a moderately decent standard, I don't want to live in a society where the poorest are subject to desperation and hardship and using fucking food banks.

What are we advocating for here? That life on benefits should be so miserable that people are reduced to begging, or that they shouldn't have a roof over their heads, or they shouldn't be able to eat, or that we should be able to gather them up in the dead of night and ship them off to Cornwall to pick daffodils?

And what are the 'luxuries' that these dreadful scroungers are allegedly dripping with? Don't tell me, a mobile phone and a flat screen telly - the horror.

Against the backdrop of an ongoing and massive transfer of wealth and assets from the poor to the rich, a process that has massively accelerated under the Tories, I don't look at the people living on the corpy estate, on very modest means, and decide it's all their fault.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Daily Telegraph learning about the concept of actions and consequences.

'So has there been a terrible irony in the return of the dark blue version? From a traveller’s point of view, it is beginning to look like a rather diminished and problematic document. This year it plunged to joint-13th in the Henley Passport Index, below countries such as Singapore, Spain and Luxembourg. This hasn’t gone unnoticed among many British citizens. In the first four years after the 2016 referendum some 360,000 of us applied for EU passports – and that is just in the nine countries which revealed the data.

Much of the problem comes down to the new restrictions on our rights to visit our neighbours in Europe.'

The fact the new British passports are made in Poland is just the final ironic kicker.

'And there is one final irony. When you do apply for your new document, in one sense it isn’t British at all. Unlike our old burgundy EU passports, which were produced in Gateshead by the British company De La Rue, the new version is made under a new contract with a French firm, Thales (which is partly owned by the French government), and they are printed in Tczew, Poland.'

 

[bamberfishcake]

I dunno I just can't bring myself to think of people on benefits as being the problem here. (See also, immigrants.)

The UK government printed four hundred and fifty BILLION pounds during Covid and pretty much just siphoned it into the pockets of the already wealthy, but sure, the single mother living on benefits is the baddie.

We have people who live on benefits here, I don't get annoyed with them because they're not working (and there's no shortage of jobs here), the reason they're on benefits isn't really my business, it's between them and the government. Maybe they have a disability of some kind (remember not all disabilities are physical), maybe the single mother escaped from an abusive relationship, maybe someone just needs some time to get themselves back on track following a significant life event, or yes, maybe they simply don't want to work - but it's hardly as if they're living in the lap of luxury and driving around in a shiny new Porsche.

The fact that some of my taxes goes towards this doesn't bother me either, for me it's more important that everyone is able to live a life to a moderately decent standard, I don't want to live in a society where the poorest are subject to desperation and hardship and using fucking food banks.

What are we advocating for here? That life on benefits should be so miserable that people are reduced to begging, or that they shouldn't have a roof over their heads, or they shouldn't be able to eat, or that we should be able to gather them up in the dead of night and ship them off to Cornwall to pick daffodils?

And what are the 'luxuries' that these dreadful scroungers are allegedly dripping with? Don't tell me, a mobile phone and a flat screen telly - the horror.

Against the backdrop of an ongoing and massive transfer of wealth and assets from the poor to the rich, a process that has massively accelerated under the Tories, I don't look at the people living on the corpy estate, on very modest means, and decide it's all their fault.

Appreciate what you are saying. I don't blame the people on benefits taking what they can in many cases. You don't turn down a free meal. However, the laziness and attitude it breeds are not beneficial to society, nor the individual really.

110% agree the transfer of wealth is the biggest evil here. But two wrongs don't make a right, and we should be aspiring for better solutions and development across all sections of society.

I don't worry about my taxes going on benefits. Nothing would change if everyone decided to go 'straight' and hold their hands up one day - I don't think our taxes would drop as a result and therein lies the problem and corruption at the top, which is by far the greatest threat to mankind today.

Our heads of state are causing wars for profit, and creating systems of failure to make more money from, all the while manipulating the media right in front of our eyes. Crime used to lurk in the shadows, now it is brazen and laughing at our willingness to accept it and watch it carry on.

Interested to know if you agree we need radical change? Or would you say I am overreacting and there are decent politicians with good intentions?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Appreciate what you are saying. I don't blame the people on benefits taking what they can in many cases. You don't turn down a free meal. However, the laziness and attitude it breeds are not beneficial to society, nor the individual really.

110% agree the transfer of wealth is the biggest evil here. But two wrongs don't make a right, and we should be aspiring for better solutions and development across all sections of society.

I don't worry about my taxes going on benefits. Nothing would change if everyone decided to go 'straight' and hold their hands up one day - I don't think our taxes would drop as a result and therein lies the problem and corruption at the top, which is by far the greatest threat to mankind today.

Our heads of state are causing wars for profit, and creating systems of failure to make more money from, all the while manipulating the media right in front of our eyes. Crime used to lurk in the shadows, now it is brazen and laughing at our willingness to accept it and watch it carry on.

Interested to know if you agree we need radical change? Or would you say I am overreacting and there are decent politicians with good intentions?

We most certainly do need a radical change in how government is run, and who it's run for. Alas I don't see that any of major political parties in the UK will enact that change. I'd vote Labour in a UK general election (if I could vote in said election) as I do think they'd be better for ordinary people than the Tories, but nothing about their policies says to me they'd sort out the root of the problem.

The UK government is essentially run by the rich, for the convenience of the rich, and as you note yourself bamber, the corruption is absolutely blatant and in full sight now, with scarcely even any pretence to the contrary.

The only real way forward I can see is if we change our voting system from First Past The Post to Proportional Representation, so that the votes cast actually translate to MPs in parliament, rather than the government largely being decided on the results on a relatively small number of swing constituencies.

The worst mistake New Labour made when they were in office was not bringing in PR, over 50% of the electorate cast their votes for centre-left parties in every general election, but you wouldn't think so to look at the House of Commons.

I'm kind of hoping that we end up with a Lab-Lib pact at the next election (maybe with the SNP throwing some votes into the ring as well), and the Libs demand PR as the price for supporting Labour. Won't happen of course.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A fact-based analysis of the rolling shitshow that is Brexit, citing evidence and sources throughout.

By all means feel free to post the 'Ten Reasons Brexit Has Been Great For Britain' articles in the interests of balance.

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[paul7388]

A fact-based analysis of the rolling shitshow that is Brexit, citing evidence and sources throughout.

By all means feel free to post the 'Ten Reasons Brexit Has Been Great For Britain' articles in the interests of balance.

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View attachment 170697

Yeah we should still be in EU. I mean they are not having any staff shortages, travel chaos or spiralling inflation.

Oh wait a minute. They are all suffering the same. In fact some Eurpean countries are being hit worse than us at the moment but from every post you make you seem to be making out all is great in Europe and UK is only country suffering at moment.

Actually getting quite laughable how desperate you are getting to keep going on about Brexit being bad.

I would agree tho that Brexit has caused some problems. That was always expected and long term we will see what develops.


But keeping posting articles saying how bad UK is when every other country is the same proves nothing.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The article deals with that, noting that many countries are struggling with, for example, inflation, but that the UK now has the highest inflation out of all the G7 nations - what do we have that none of them do? Brexit.

I'm not 'desperate' to demonstrate anything, facts are facts. If I stand under a running shower I don't have to be 'desperate' to get wet, I'll just get wet, because that's what water does.

 

[dunover]

The article deals with that, noting that many countries are struggling with, for example, inflation, but that the UK now has the highest inflation out of all the G7 nations - what do we have that none of them do? Brexit.

I'm not 'desperate' to demonstrate anything, facts are facts. If I stand under a running shower I don't have to be 'desperate' to get wet, I'll just get wet, because that's what water does.

View attachment 170702

Well, let me see - pro-rata, the Euro has fallen worse than Sterling - at its worst I recall £1 = 1.09 euros a few years back, now it's higher as I experienced last month. The euro has fallen significantly against the dollar, mainly due to energy trading which is mainly done in USD. It's now £1 = 1.20 euro so Sterling is stronger against the euro than it has been traditionally, so if anything present imports from the Eurozone are a few percent cheaper than they have been of late. So let's blow that BS out of the water.

Both currencies have fallen against the dollar. In both cases, that's due to world energy trade and economic conditions, sod-all to do with Brexit.

Oh, and let's see some credible factual (not opinionated) evidence that of the UK's 9% inflation rate that only 1.8% of that is 'natural' whereas 7.2% of it (80% as your copied post states) is down to Brexit. Your bollocks is contradictory as eurozone inflation of 7% cannot have been caused by Brexit but by covid and Ukraine war/energy prices. So your assertion is that the eurozone can have 7% inflation caused by world issues as just mentioned, but the UK would NOT have been affected like Europe and would have had a mere 1.8% inflation had it not been for Brexit?

Pull the other one, even you must know that's utter nonsense. Your desperate trawl of social media statements from likeminded individuals to back up your pie-in-the-sky theories fails under even the most basic examination.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

N0tHinG T0 d0 W1Th Br3Xit!

The Brexit that was supposed to change everything, but actually appears to have changed nothing, if those changes are negative, that is.

Queues at Dover, inflation, exporting troubles, falling business investment, fruit rotting in the fields, staff shortages, you name it - nothing to do with Brexit.

Since Brexit appears to be incapable of making any changes to anything, (including those pesky dinghies coming across the channel), one wonders what the point is.

 

[dunover]

N0tHinG T0 d0 W1Th Br3Xit!

The Brexit that was supposed to change everything, but actually appears to have changed nothing, if those changes are negative, that is.

Queues at Dover, inflation, exporting troubles, falling business investment, fruit rotting in the fields, staff shortages, you name it - nothing to do with Brexit.

Since Brexit appears to be incapable of making any changes to anything, (including those pesky dinghies coming across the channel), one wonders what the point is.

Don't go off on a tangent - answer my question! Demonstrate that of the UK's 9% inflation, approximately 7% (80%) of it is directly attributable to Brexit. As you copied social media post asserts. You aren't getting away with it that easily. So show us the facts from a credible apolitical economic expert, or admit that the post is just fantasy, a vague indefinable figure conjured up from one of your Corbinista acolytes. One or t'other please!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Don't go off on a tangent - answer my question! Demonstrate that of the UK's 9% inflation, approximately 7% (80%) of it is directly attributable to Brexit. As you copied social media post asserts. You aren't getting away with it that easily. So show us the facts from a credible apolitical economic expert, or admit that the post is just fantasy, a vague indefinable figure conjured up from one of your Corbinista acolytes. One or t'other please!

Well here's the original article, it links off to an FT piece which unfortunately is paywalled.

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Anyway, the piece doesn't say that 80% of UK inflation is directly attributable to Brexit, it says that it's 'bound up with Brexit and its endless complexity', i.e. Brexit adds a little cherry of shit on top of everything.

 

[bamberfishcake]

By all means feel free to post the 'Ten Reasons Brexit Has Been Great For Britain' articles in the interests of balance.

I doubt you will find a list of ten great things about Britain full stop.

Looming recession, spiralling cost of living, increasing fuel costs and bills.

None of this is anything to do with Brexit. You can blame it for all the world's ills as much as you like, but the reality is the world is in an economic whirlwind at the minute. Brexit and the merits of its success are hard to gauge with so many other influences.

And I think may have mentioned, it's too soon. Funny analogy, but do breakups ever go smoothly? Pretty much the whole of the EU didn't want us to leave. Now comes the wrangling over who the kids live with and how much maintenance will be paid, etc.

p.s. I see you and Dunover are already having this convo, I should read more than I post Anyway, Go Brexit!

 

[bamberfishcake]

Not really Brexit related, but a view on the establishments defamation of Jeremy Corbyn's character.

I know there is a Corbyn fan or two in this thread

 

[mack341]

Remainers need brexit to be a disaster [and widely seen as that] otherwise their primary argument 'we're better off in' starts to fall to bits.

Giving up a significant degree of national sovereignty simply to avoid layers of bureaucracy, artificially created by a trading partner, is bonkers. We need to resist, hopefully we can trust in Truss!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The thing is mack I don't 'want' Brexit to be a failure, if the whole thing had turned out to be a massive success I'd be perfectly happy, and I'd cheerfully hold my hand up to having called it wrong. Contrary to what some people may think, it gives me no particular pleasure to watch the UK start a trade war with itself and cheerfully blow its own feet off.

Brexit either fails or it succeeds, or maybe something in-between, what I 'want' has nothing to do with it - and at the moment, all signs are pointing towards failure, (or at the very least, if we're being really generous, it having failed to improve one single solitary thing). (Which was absolutely the sales pitch, as I'm sure we all remember.)

I do a lot of project work, and one of the things we do when a project has been delivered is go through what went well, what didn't go well, lessons learned, what could we improve for next time etc. This is a dispassionate process, it has to be evidence-led and focused entirely on facts, 'believing in the project' has nothing to do with it.

If Brexit were a properly run project it would have never even got out of the starting blocks, as the risk register alone would have sunk it without trace in the planning stages, not to mention all its supposed 'benefits' were ephemeral nonsense based around 'believing in Britain' and other such twaddle.

But let's say it went through to completion, as Brexit did indeed do, and we were now in the post-project evaluation phase. Honestly, hand on heart, how do you think Brexit would fare?

KEY DELIVERABLES - FAILED
IMPROVEMENTS PROMISED - FAILED
MATERIALISED RISKS - NEARLY ALL IDENTIFIED IN PLANNING OCCURRED
COST BENEFITS - MASSIVELY NEGATIVE
ONGOING BURDENS - HUGE

I mean, well, you get the idea, I'll stop there.

Brexit is a dud, it's a flop, it's failed completely even on its own terms, and it will continue to fail, because it was a thoroughly stupid idea right from the start that was always doomed to fail - most notably once Theresa May drew her red lines and decided we'd be coming out of both the Single Market and the Customs Union.

The history is all there in this very thread, all the crap that has come to pass was predicted by those pesky experts that Gove told us we're all so fed up with. All I'm doing at this point is evaluating the Brexit project - and by christ it's a shitter of a thing.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

The thing is mack I don't 'want' Brexit to be a failure, if the whole thing had turned out to be a massive success I'd be perfectly happy, and I'd cheerfully hold my hand up to having called it wrong. Contrary to what some people may think, it gives me no particular pleasure to watch the UK start a trade war with itself and cheerfully blow its own feet off.

Brexit either fails or it succeeds, or maybe something in-between, what I 'want' has nothing to do with it - and at the moment, all signs are pointing towards failure, (or at the very least, if we're being really generous, it having failed to improve one single solitary thing). (Which was absolutely the sales pitch, as I'm sure we all remember.)

I do a lot of project work, and one of the things we do when a project has been delivered is go through what went well, what didn't go well, lessons learned, what could we improve for next time etc. This is a dispassionate process, it has to be evidence-led and focused entirely on facts, 'believing in the project' has nothing to do with it.

If Brexit were a properly run project it would have never even got out of the starting blocks, as the risk register alone would have sunk it without trace in the planning stages, not to mention all its supposed 'benefits' were ephemeral nonsense based around 'believing in Britain' and other such twaddle.

But let's say it went through to completion, as Brexit did indeed do, and we were now in the post-project evaluation phase. Honestly, hand on heart, how do you think Brexit would fare?

KEY DELIVERABLES - FAILED
IMPROVEMENTS PROMISED - FAILED
MATERIALISED RISKS - NEARLY ALL IDENTIFIED IN PLANNING OCCURRED
COST BENEFITS - MASSIVELY NEGATIVE
ONGOING BURDENS - HUGE

I mean, well, you get the idea, I'll stop there.

Brexit is a dud, it's a flop, it's failed completely even on its own terms, and it will continue to fail, because it was a thoroughly stupid idea right from the start that was always doomed to fail - most notably once Theresa May drew her red lines and decided we'd be coming out of both the Single Market and the Customs Union.

The history is all there in this very thread, all the crap that has come to pass was predicted by those pesky experts that Gove told us we're all so fed up with. All I'm doing at this point is evaluating the Brexit project - and by christ it's a shitter of a thing.

You can’t judge the success of Brexit after A) so little time and B) given what has been going on over the last 2 years or so.

You say you wanted Brexit to be a success yet everything else you come out with suggests the polar opposite.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

You can’t judge the success of Brexit after A) so little time and B) given what has been going on over the last 2 years or so.

You say you wanted Brexit to be a success yet everything else you come out with suggests the polar opposite.

As per my previous post, I'm just judging it based on the facts of the situation as I can see them, I'm entirely open to other viewpoints, for example if there's an article out there laying down the case for the ways in which Brexit has been a success, link me up and I'll cheerfully give it a read.

We're seeing a lot of the negative effects of Brexit in fairly short order, so why are the benefits a long-term goal that may or may not happen? Again, this really wasn't the sales pitch that people were given going into the referendum. All of the upsides, none of the downsides, we all remember that, right?

A good friend of mine is a member of a local band called Clash Vooar, they're a Manx Gaelic outfit and I love them to bits (I've seen them live several times), but they're not exactly not going to be filling stadiums anytime soon. They've been away to festivals to Europe in years gone by on many occasions, but 2022 is the first year they've travelled to Europe since the pandemic, so of course the first time they've been to Europe since Brexit.

Here's their website by the way,

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- and their album is on Spotify too!



So yes, they're having fun with planning to go to France..... (WhatsApp excerpt shown below) I mean, you can just feel the weariness in his words, a real sense of why have we done this to ourselves?

They just want to go and play music with a load of other music folks and be chilled out and have a good time but they've had this massive blob of shite bureaucracy and expense dropped on their heads and for what? For absolutely bugger all. No one can name a single thing that Brexit has made better, we're now in the 'oh well give it another few years and then we'll see' phase, or David Davis telling us it's crap because we got 'A Remainer's Brexit', or blame it on the war, or blame it on the pandemic, basically anything except confronting the truth about what Brexit has turned out to be. There's a word for that, it's called denial.

Brexit only works when it doesn't exist, it's a dichotomy, when it's fanciful talk of Britain striding on the world stage and Union Jacks and 'Red White and Blue Brexits' it sounds fab, the second it encounters reality it crumbles to dust, because it's a lie, it's a con, it's a scam.

No one likes being scammed, I get it, so when none of the Brexit Benefits have come to pass in a year, or two years, or three years, or five years (and believe me, they won't, because Brexit is fucked by design, it's not a bug it's a feature), will the excuses still be made? Will everyone still be saying, 'Oh just give it another year or two, go on, the good stuff is around the next corner, I'm sure'.......

 

[TheAddict]

When or if he calms down, and youre confident he is calm. Ask your pal if he kept a record of the weights and serial codes for the next time.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Itemise Cargo for Transport Abroad Shocker! What is the world coming to?!

Was this not a requirement pre-Brexit? Don't need to be Mystic Meg to see that border control would change.

I know there are plenty of lies from politicians about taking back control of our borders not coming with more red tape, but logic dictated it would. Hardly a catastrophe that your friend has to compile a list. Sounds like what they call a 21st centre problem.

Trouble is, any beneficial trade deals with other unions and countries are being stalled due to the current economic climate. I still say being out of the sinking ship that is the EU, is beneficial for us. If you can call it a sinking ship, it never really got to float and was never seen as a serious contender. Great idea, badly implemented - a bit like Brexit

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Itemise Cargo for Transport Abroad Shocker! What is the world coming to?!

Was this not a requirement pre-Brexit? Don't need to be Mystic Meg to see that border control would change.

I know there are plenty of lies from politicians about taking back control of our borders not coming with more red tape, but logic dictated it would. Hardly a catastrophe that your friend has to compile a list. Sounds like what they call a 21st centre problem.

Trouble is, any beneficial trade deals with other unions and countries are being stalled due to the current economic climate. I still say being out of the sinking ship that is the EU, is beneficial for us. If you can call it a sinking ship, it never really got to float and was never seen as a serious contender. Great idea, badly implemented - a bit like Brexit

Well yes of course these are '21st century first world problems', the big selling point of Brexit was that the UK was a major first world player on the international stage and therefore we could throw around our weight as such - there was no suggestion that we'd be picking the weevils out of biscuits in order to survive.

So like my friend who now has acres of shite to wade through just to go to France with his band, or the holidaymakers stuck at Dover for six hours or more, or all the other (in the grand scheme of things) relatively minor Brexit downgrades we've all had to endure, where is the good stuff?

We came at Brexit from the position of 'We're great and we're only going to get better!', not, 'Well yeah a load of stuff might get a bit crappier but hey, first world problems, right?'.

You can't shift the narrative like that and not expect to get called out on it, Brexit has made nothing better, and it's made loads of things somewhere between a bit and quite a lot worse. (Talk to UK SMEs whose trade with Europe has been decimated by Brexit and ask how they feel about it all.)

There are no beneficial trade deals, the best case scenario we've seen time and time again is that the existing EU trade deal just gets rolled over, and in the case of Australia and New Zealand, it's like Christmas has come early for them because we're letting them import their meat to us at far lower standards than our own farmers have to meet.

In your own words bamber, 'hardly a catastrophe', they didn't put that on the side of a bus. I don't remember Boris 'Massive Liar' Johnson selling Brexit to everyone on the basis that it would end up being 'hardly a catastrophe'.

 

[interlog]

So where are these 6 hour queues at Dover then? They seem to have suddenly disappeared? Perhaps our French friends are in a waving mood?

 

[pinnit2014]

We most certainly do need a radical change in how government is run, and who it's run for. Alas I don't see that any of major political parties in the UK will enact that change. I'd vote Labour in a UK general election (if I could vote in said election) as I do think they'd be better for ordinary people than the Tories, but nothing about their policies says to me they'd sort out the root of the problem.

The UK government is essentially run by the rich, for the convenience of the rich, and as you note yourself bamber, the corruption is absolutely blatant and in full sight now, with scarcely even any pretence to the contrary.

The only real way forward I can see is if we change our voting system from First Past The Post to Proportional Representation, so that the votes cast actually translate to MPs in parliament, rather than the government largely being decided on the results on a relatively small number of swing constituencies.

The worst mistake New Labour made when they were in office was not bringing in PR, over 50% of the electorate cast their votes for centre-left parties in every general election, but you wouldn't think so to look at the House of Commons.

I'm kind of hoping that we end up with a Lab-Lib pact at the next election (maybe with the SNP throwing some votes into the ring as well), and the Libs demand PR as the price for supporting Labour. Won't happen of course.

What do you term as 'ordinary people'?

Not as daft a question as you may think: there are plenty of lower-middle classes feeling disenfranchised by the main parties and therefore was wondering if you think any of their policies spoke to them? Because from speaking with a few people, they don't.

 

[mcgameboy]

As per my previous post, I'm just judging it based on the facts of the situation as I can see them, I'm entirely open to NO other viewpoints WHATSOEVER, for example if there's an article out there laying down the case for the ways in which Brexit has been a success, link me up and I'll cheerfully give it a read.

Fixed that for you

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What do you term as 'ordinary people'?

Not as daft a question as you may think: there are plenty of lower-middle classes feeling disenfranchised by the main parties and therefore was wondering if you think any of their policies spoke to them? Because from speaking with a few people, they don't.

For me it'd be a very broad definition, basically people who don't have a chunk of wealth or assets behind them and their income is wages and/or benefits, they have a mortgage or rent, use services such as the NHS and state schools (i.e. not private), live in a normal kind of place and so on - basically what you'd call the working or middle classes.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So where are these 6 hour queues at Dover then? They seem to have suddenly disappeared? Perhaps our French friends are in a waving mood?

The thing with this is we're just back at arguing Brexit didn't make 'Thing X' worse, that's the ground that's being defended now, 'Maybe this big pile of crap isn't attributable to Brexit', we all agree there's a big pile of crap, we're just disagreeing on what caused it.

There are no shiny new brilliant things that Brexit has created, or existing things that Brexit has made better, the narrative has entirely shifted to NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT MATE when people identify things that it very much looks like Brexit has made worse, or created problems where previously none existed.

Despite all the talk now that the case for Brexit was never about economics, almost all the promises here are economic. And they are promises of *benefits*, not just of things 'not being as bad as the warnings'. It need hardly be added that none of them has come true.

It's like bamber's comment the other day that it's 'hardly a catastrophe', I mean, sheesh, that's a pretty low bar to cross.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Siri, show me what 'changing the narrative' looks like.

If I was as bad at my job as Frost is, I'd have been sacked fifty times over. Fortunately for Frosty he was made a life peer in September 2020 so it's literally impossible to sack him, and he's completely unelected.

Full democracy indeed!

Hmmmm.

 

[mack341]

Look at all the promises parties make every 4 years. Frost is absolutely right.

But also it is having the future decisions in your own hands [as much as is possible], at some point [in this decade] there will be another decision facing member states requiring them to hand more national sovereignty/power over to the unelected EU.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Some proper numbers are in now on immigration, basically, since the referendum gross immigration to the UK has increased. Migration from the EU is down quite a lot, but this has been replaced and then exceeded by migration to the UK from non-EU countries, including poorer countries such as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria.

Decent analysis here by Tory MP Neil O'Brien. (He voted leave in the referendum.)

So if you were of the opinion that the UK was 'full' and that Brexit would reduce immigration - it's had the opposite effect.

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[mack341]

Well why didn't remainers claim that immigration will increase once we leave? [if provable by logic they might have won a few more votes]

I've got a feeling liz truss might sort out the boat problem, although she's basically a lib dem impersonating maggieT, bolshy women don't like to be told 'no it can't be done'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well.....

 

[mack341]

Well.....

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Yes but they don't claim staying in the EU would reduce immigration, only that leaving won't stop the non EU form.

I think you did say if we had stayed in France would be dealing with the campers differently, that could've been an effective argument [certainly a plus] but I don't think it was made in the run up to 2016 afaik.

Apparently a high percentage of the current ones are albanian, don't know if that is true ( I'm sceptical but they say up to 40% ). Of course Albania is not in the EU currently but seeking membership, in which case they would be able to move here freely had we not left the EU.

 

[mack341]

From O'Brien's article on immigration:

But the real economic downsides of migration are felt where supply is inelastic. In 2018, Dominic Raab published a MHCLG note suggesting net migration had pushed up house prices by 21 per cent.

That’s an underestimate, only counting those born abroad, ignoring larger family sizes among those who move here. Nonetheless, that’s a big effect on your mortgage or rent.

-----------

Ditto unrestricted future immigration from the EU, would carry on increasing the housing shortage, prices and rents.

What a mess when you start to artificially inflate a country's population, partly to keep wages suppressed for employers, and then the taxpayer in the form of govt picks up the tab for all the extra costs.

 

[goatwack]

Green arrows or not, the only sentence to take away from that is 'In our opinion...."

A think-piece from six years ago with about as much relevance and usefulness as Priti Patel's coastal speedboat blundering

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Green arrows or not, the only sentence to take away from that is 'In our opinion...."

A think-piece from six years ago with about as much relevance and usefulness as Priti Patel's coastal speedboat blundering

But they were entirely correct, Brexit did not curb immigration. Since the referendum, it has increased.

 

[goatwack]

But they were entirely correct, Brexit did not curb immigration. Since the referendum, it has increased.

Well I guess that makes them big fat liars then, don't it

There's no doubt the billboard advertising of swathes of people lining up to trample across the countryside was a major part of Project Fear, and I think most could see it for the political sound bite it was. That's not to say the incompetents tasked with border control have in any way done their job - so yes, on that score, it was a fat porky

 

[slot_zombie]

From O'Brien's article on immigration:

But the real economic downsides of migration are felt where supply is inelastic. In 2018, Dominic Raab published a MHCLG note suggesting net migration had pushed up house prices by 21 per cent.

That’s an underestimate, only counting those born abroad, ignoring larger family sizes among those who move here. Nonetheless, that’s a big effect on your mortgage or rent.

-----------

Ditto unrestricted future immigration from the EU, would carry on increasing the housing shortage, prices and rents.

What a mess when you start to artificially inflate a country's population, partly to keep wages suppressed for employers, and then the taxpayer in the form of govt picks up the tab for all the extra costs.

It's ridiculous to postulate that we are screwed on immigration whether in our out of the EU (not a dig at you Mack, your post is sound). We're a sovereign country and should be able to control our borders. Time for 100% zero tolerance. No paid hotel rooms, pizzas, lawyers, accomodation of any kind - just a bed in a camp, a one way ticket out, and no recourse to the British public's funds or support - ever. Let the message get out there and let it sink in, watch the dinghies dry up. We simply cannot carry on like this with thousands of illegals pouring in every week, if we want to retain any sort of quality of life at all, especially for our children when they grow up.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's ridiculous to postulate that we are screwed on immigration whether in our out of the EU (not a dig at you Mack, your post is sound). We're a sovereign country and should be able to control our borders. Time for 100% zero tolerance. No paid hotel rooms, pizzas, lawyers, accomodation of any kind - just a bed in a camp, a one way ticket out, and no recourse to the British public's funds or support - ever. Let the message get out there and let it sink in, watch the dinghies dry up. We simply cannot carry on like this with thousands of illegals pouring in every week, if we want to retain any sort of quality of life at all, especially for our children when they grow up.

But this is legal immigration, the people being talked about in the report are coming here legitimately.

(It is also true to say that Brexit has done nothing whatsoever to halt the dinghies coming across the channel, but then, it was never going to, and has indeed made things worse because we lost the reciprocal agreements we had on refugees with other EU countries when we left.)

 

[dunover]

But this is legal immigration, the people being talked about in the report are coming here legitimately.

(It is also true to say that Brexit has done nothing whatsoever to halt the dinghies coming across the channel, but then, it was never going to, and has indeed made things worse because we lost the reciprocal agreements we had on refugees with other EU countries when we left.)

And when we had these 'agreements' the French were shit hot at not turning a blind eye??

 

[goatwack]

It's all very well having an 'in-house' re-evaluation of those already in the UK, or 'officially' slowing new admissions, so on that front it's certainly been a roaring success (see: EU Settlement Scheme)

All moot however if unvetted daily arrivals numbering hundreds illegally enter the country, how does that tie in to the betterment of society, I'd like to know!

Also strange then that migration/ illegal immigration/ immigration tend to become conflated as and when, and that's before you add economic migrants into the mix.

'Migration' within the EU has always been a staple of the arrangement, it's how we took the perilous two-hour journey across from Europe, but those numbers increasing or decreasing in the intervening years aren't what I'd call a defining factor. 500 daily unvetted Dover arrivals, that forego the first 'safe' point of entry in search of the UK's many benefits however, 'is'

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And when we had these 'agreements' the French were shit hot at not turning a blind eye??

We lost the 'Dublin Agreement' when we left the EU, so it wasn't just France.

This was another one of those 'Project Fear' things that turned into 'Project Reality', there were rather a lot of those, weren't there?

Then we asked the EU to give us a sort of equivalent agreement once we'd left because we hold all the cards and whatnot, and they quite understandably told us to fuck right off, because they were like, taking back control, and stuff.

We then said 'Oh well we'll negotiate with member states separately then' at which point all said member states also told us to fuck right off and that they'd leave those negotiations to the very competent EU negotiators, thank you very much.

So a Brexit Triumph all round!

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