Brexit - whats the difference.....

[interlog]

I am not attempting to belittle you, but you're making statements that fly directly in the face of the available evidence, including from the exact people who are uniquely well placed to explain the realities of the situations at both Dover and Folkstone.

If you're going to insist 'fuck all to do with Brexit' when every shred of evidence points in the opposite direction, what is there left to say? The head honchos at both Dover and Folkstone are now on record as having said, 'Yeah this shit takes longer now, so more delays'. You are effectively saying that you know more about this than the people whose literal jobs is to look after this stuff at Dover and Folkstone.

And what would be so bad about just accepting that Brexit has consequences, and that some of them will be negative? If the goal of Brexit was to change things, then doesn't it follow that not all of those changes will be positive?

You simply cannot leave the EU, Single Market and Customs Union and then expect passage across borders to be exactly the same as it was before, because it objectively and clearly isn't.

My comment was not intended to come across as belittling, it was supposed to be tongue in cheek whilst also making a serious point about the 'British Exceptionalism' that can IMO, explain an awful lot of the entire Brexit phenomenon. i.e. 'We want to take back control of our borders! But not you, you shouldn't do that as well'.

Regardless, I apologise for making the comment.

So why then when there was that debate about the LGV driver shortage did you not accept my word for the reason behind it and contined arguing it was because of Brexit? I am an "expert" on that matter such as those chaps in Dover and Folkestone are.

You don't know anything about me or what my travels are like. All I will say is that from my and my wifes own experience we have never experienced any more time it taking us getting through border control as it did before Brexit. That is a fact. I don't need some highly paid executive at Dover or Folkestone basically telling me that I am talking out of my arse.

 

[dunover]

So why then when there was that debate about the LGV driver shortage did you not accept my word for the reason behind it and contined arguing it was because of Brexit? I am an "expert" on that matter such as those chaps in Dover and Folkestone are.

You don't know anything about me or what my travels are like. All I will say is that from my and my wifes own experience we have never experienced any more time it taking us getting through border control as it did before Brexit. That is a fact. I don't need some highly paid executive at Dover or Folkestone basically telling me that I am talking out of my arse.

Yes, I've noticed, as I said earlier, no difference either when going to the EU. The problem with Dover, and it has been so since I first used it in the 1980's, is a limited capacity which means most days it's running over 80% and in peak times, has trouble coping therefore ANY mishap or logisitical or staffing issue starts a spiral of delays. Every time anything goes wrong in the UK nowadays that may involve Europe or has even tentative links to it will see the hovering remoaners waiting like vultures to spit their bile at any opportunity like the spoilt agenda-laden whiners they are.

WE LEFT - GET THE F*C K OVER IT!!!

 

[bamberfishcake]

I'm sorry bamber but how can you say in one breath that you focus on facts, and then with the next breath say that in your opinion the guy whose job it is to run the Port of Dover is overstating the impact of new post-Brexit customs checks? I mean, he's there, it's literally his job, he's telling people what's happening and why.

And what is 'mainstream media fiction'? Are you saying that outlets such as Sky News, BBC News and The Guardian are just making shit up? Where do you recommend we go to get the 'true journalism' of which you speak?

What I do agree with you on is that Brexit has basically been used as a conjob for all the usual suspects to enrich themselves further at the expense of everyone else, but even without that element it was still a disastrous act of self-harm and nothing would have been able to change that.

Sorry took me a while to come back to this, I wish I had more time to discuss and look more into it.

I didn't mean to imply the guy was overstating the impact, it seems to me that his words have been dramatically taken out of context.

It is blatantly undeniably obvious that extra work will take extra time, but I am suggesting its a nothing story, a red herring if you like, a story that one side has jumped on in an attempt to make a point.

I did the math, I hope it's correct. Based on 10,000,000 customers because it was a nice round figure,

10,000,000 x 2 seconds = 20,000,000 seconds.

3,600 seconds in an hour = 5555.55 hours a year = 15 hours per day which can be covered in two shifts.

So, if my calculations are correct, Brexit has cost us about two persons wages per year, compared to the 50% of extra manned booths being touted as required? Something doesnt add up.

Doug said in his interview 'we knew what the checks were going to be like, have been operating this way since left the EU, had lower travel numbers before because of Covid, now with an increasing number of tourists it is taking longer to get through, but those were planning assumptions, says they have been getting great support from the government and needs a couple of years worth of investments. (Though I am not sure why - but all public-facing companies and organisations constantly ask for investment, doesnt mean Brexit failed). He went on to almost agree that the French owe an apology.

A lot doesnt add up, and it was two days of delays because of increasing numbers of traffic, it is coming up for holiday season after all, and late staff contributed, by what little I understand.

I'm not saying SKY, BBC and many others just make shit up, but its not far from what I am sayin

You can do your own research rather than believing everything you read in the mainstream. The examples of mainstream media lies are staggering, which destroys much of their credibility for me. I read many different sources and try to make my own conclusions as best I can. MSM take a single statement and make it sounds like the CEO of Dover is blaming Brexit, which if you watch the interview, is not the case.

Maybe I am hearing what I want to, but after a little bit of time looking into some facts, it seems the impact of extra checks has not been accommodated by both sides, maybe the CEO is covering his arse by saying they did prepare for it but actually didn't, perhaps this is another bandwagon excuse to moan about Brexit, and if it is because France wants to start being funny and make things awkward, perhaps we should fight the bully back, or, lastly, its Dover getting busy at the end of July again.

But let's see what happens over the next few months and assess the real impact before we make assumptions and blame Brexit for a few days delays at Dover at the start of holiday season. I am sure there will be more delays as there always are each year.

I dont think this is a worrying after-effect of Brexit, could be wrong, but see nothing to suggest this is even newsworthy at the minute.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, I've noticed, as I said earlier, no difference either when going to the EU. The problem with Dover, and it has been so since I first used it in the 1980's, is a limited capacity which means most days it's running over 80% and in peak times, has trouble coping therefore ANY mishap or logisitical or staffing issue starts a spiral of delays. Every time anything goes wrong in the UK nowadays that may involve Europe or has even tentative links to it will see the hovering remoaners waiting like vultures to spit their bile at any opportunity like the spoilt agenda-laden whiners they are.

WE LEFT - GET THE F*C K OVER IT!!!

OK, so when Brexit injects a 'logistical issue' that didn't exist before, like every single passport having to be stamped, then that can slow an already stressed port down to the extent that the queues start to build up.

That's all I'm getting at here, Brexit introduced a bit more bureaucracy into a process that was already very stressed, and now it can't cope.

The people at the port were saying you're only talking an extra minute or so per car of four people, multiply that out by ten thousand cars, and you've got yourself a problem.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Sorry took me a while to come back to this, I wish I had more time to discuss and look more into it.

I didn't mean to imply the guy was overstating the impact, it seems to me that his words have been dramatically taken out of context.

It is blatantly undeniably obvious that extra work will take extra time, but I am suggesting its a nothing story, a red herring if you like, a story that one side has jumped on in an attempt to make a point.

I did the math, I hope it's correct. Based on 10,000,000 customers because it was a nice round figure,

10,000,000 x 2 seconds = 20,000,000 seconds.

3,600 seconds in an hour = 5555.55 hours a year = 15 hours per day which can be covered in two shifts.

So, if my calculations are correct, Brexit has cost us about two persons wages per year, compared to the 50% of extra manned booths being touted as required? Something doesnt add up.

Doug said in his interview 'we knew what the checks were going to be like, have been operating this way since left the EU, had lower travel numbers before because of Covid, now with an increasing number of tourists it is taking longer to get through, but those were planning assumptions, says they have been getting great support from the government and needs a couple of years worth of investments. (Though I am not sure why - but all public-facing companies and organisations constantly ask for investment, doesnt mean Brexit failed). He went on to almost agree that the French owe an apology.

A lot doesnt add up, and it was two days of delays because of increasing numbers of traffic, it is coming up for holiday season after all, and late staff contributed, by what little I understand.

I'm not saying SKY, BBC and many others just make shit up, but its not far from what I am sayin

You can do your own research rather than believing everything you read in the mainstream. The examples of mainstream media lies are staggering, which destroys much of their credibility for me. I read many different sources and try to make my own conclusions as best I can. MSM take a single statement and make it sounds like the CEO of Dover is blaming Brexit, which if you watch the interview, is not the case.

Maybe I am hearing what I want to, but after a little bit of time looking into some facts, it seems the impact of extra checks has not been accommodated by both sides, maybe the CEO is covering his arse by saying they did prepare for it but actually didn't, perhaps this is another bandwagon excuse to moan about Brexit, and if it is because France wants to start being funny and make things awkward, perhaps we should fight the bully back, or, lastly, its Dover getting busy at the end of July again.

But let's see what happens over the next few months and assess the real impact before we make assumptions and blame Brexit for a few days delays at Dover at the start of holiday season. I am sure there will be more delays as there always are each year.

I dont think this is a worrying after-effect of Brexit, could be wrong, but see nothing to suggest this is even newsworthy at the minute.

The thing there is bamber, that the seconds don't add up in a linear fashion, getting a car of four people to hand over their passports to be individually stamped is more cumbersome than just having them be 'checked' (or not checked, as apparently used to happen). It makes each car a slower process beyond the extra ten seconds it might take per passport, all it takes is a few cars to be fumbling around to hand them over, and thirty seconds turns into a couple of minutes.

(I get involved a lot at work with 'process mapping', which is exactly what it sounds like, and it's surprising how much things slow down once you start to add more variables, requirements, people, verification etc into a process.)

We all seem to agree here that Dover was already a very busy, very stressed port, and it didn't take much for things to tip over into major delays, and now Brexit has introduced something new (the stamping of passports) that wasn't required before.

I appreciate the fact you acknowledge the reality of 'extra work will take extra time', which seems to be a hard task itself with some others in this thread....., and that's all I'm really driving at here, Brexit has consequences, and some of those consequences aren't great.

I actually contacted one of my friends this evening who travels, and he travels a lot, and he does indeed back up what interlog and dunover have been saying, that post-Brexit it doesn't make much difference at airports, but at Dover and Folkestone, with cars full of people, the new delays really start to add up.

I'm honestly keen to find out the facts of the case here, as dunover is keen to point out, again, and again, and again, and again, I live outside the EU and have done ever since I moved permanently to the IOM in 1996, so I really don't have much 'skin in the game' as it were, I'm genuinely just interested to see how what is, to me at least, a massive act of self-harm, actually plays out.

I mean, here we are six years after the referendum and we're still stuck at YEAH THIS IS SHIT BUT IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT, seriously, where's the good stuff? Where are the Brexit Benefits? I mean without the good stuff, and bad stuff that may or not be down to Brexit, what's the point?

It didn't even stop the dinghies coming across the channel, despite the UK lobbing SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND POUNDS per refugee at trying to transport them off to Rwanda.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is worth a watch. It will only take up 1m30s of your time.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I can't find any great information on this, from what I can see passports should have been at least given a cursory check prior to Brexit, but that now the checks are more thorough, so will take longer. However, that doesn't square up with what some of the travellers being interviewed on the news yesterday were saying, i.e. that at very busy times they would basically just be waved through as long as they were in possession of passports.

Either way, passports do need to be stamped now, which they didn't before, so that will take longer.

Maybe things were let slide before in a way that they aren't being now, maybe France thinks it has a more serious duty towards manning the border than it did before, or maybe they really are just doing it to try and 'punish the Brits'.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, the rules being enforced now are the rules that apply to third countries outside the EU, we can see that this was expected to be a problem because Dover asked for £33m a couple of years ago to get more border infrastructure in place, and the government refused to give them the money. (This has been widely reported over the last couple of days.)

Brexit - whats the difference..... - Page 197 - Casinomeister Forum

There's something else that's interesting here, I've lost track of the number of times folks in this thread have said words to the effect of, 'I knew Brexit would be a bit of a bumpy ride, I knew it wouldn't be perfect, I knew there'd be some teething troubles when I voted for it', and yet whenever we get a concrete, tangible example of Brexit having made something worse, all of a sudden IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT WHATSOEVER mode is instantaneously activated.

It seems to me like, if Leavers really believed in their project they’d say ‘yes, now we’ve left we’re a third country and that will increase bureaucracy and queues a bit, but it’s still worth it’. Instead they just deny Brexit’s a factor at all. It’s almost as if, deep down, they’re in denial about it.

OK so here's that Simon Calder guy again, and he explicitly makes reference to Schengen, saying that pre-Brexit the French were at least supposed to look at passports and verify that the people matched the photos on the passports, but that in reality when Dover got very busy, they would get to the point where they'd essentially just start waving people through, this ties in with what the people being interviewed on Sky News were saying over the weekend.

So yes, it is true to say that the French would sometimes stop doing the Schengen checks they were supposed to do when Dover got really busy, to keep things moving.

However, post-Brexit the port of Dover is where we now have an external EU border, and France is responsible for protecting that border for the entire EU, so stuff that they let slide before simply isn't an option for them now, and that means all passports being checked and stamped, at all times, however busy the port gets.

Whichever way you want to slice it, this change is a result of Brexit, the fact that the French sometimes didn't do the Schengen checks they were supposed to do before Brexit, doesn't alter the fact that they're also now obliged to do the checks that are required at an external EU border, the border that we asked to be put there as part of the Brexit deal that we negotiated.

My chum asked me why I was asking him about passport checks pre and post Brexit, and I said I was involved in a heated debate at a set of online casino forums (I also sent him a picture of Mrs Merton to illustrate this), he asked me to send him a link to the debate, so I sent him a link to this thread, starting at the post I made about Dover last Friday. We'll gloss over the fact that I spelt my own name and Casinomeister wrong.

 

[mack341]

It's not a particularly heated debate as far as I'm concerned or need not be if it is.

I think the problem is remainers getting very excited that they have another 'gotcha' moment, accompanied with disaster style headlines in the press.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's not a particularly heated debate as far as I'm concerned or need not be if it is.

I think the problem is remainers getting very excited that they have another 'gotcha' moment, accompanied with disaster style headlines in the press.

It was tongue in cheek, hence me sending him a picture of Mrs Merton as well (I'm sure we all remember Mrs Merton and her 'Let's have a heated debate!' line?)

And it's not about 'gotchas', Brexit was great when it existed in the realms of fantasy, it now exists in reality, and now it's made contact with reality, it isn't faring very well.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Here we have James Cleverly trying on the 'but Schengen!' line and Kay Burley isn't having any of it, saying that everyone knows full well the French would often just wave Brits through at Dover, at the end of the day it was people going from one EU country to another EU country, and they weren't that arsed. (Plus the Schengen checks were cursory at best anyway.)

They can't do that now, they have to protect the EU's external border which now exists at the Port of Dover. They didn't do it to us, we asked for it, Priti Patel boasted about ending freedom of movement, she just neglected to mention that she was ending the freedom of movement of Brits as well.

 

[bamberfishcake]

100% there will be change and consequences as a result of Brexit.

The long-term effects of leaving the single union will not be revealed for a few years at least. Trouble is, the people in charge, red and blue.

It's no surprise to me that politicians don't deliver on promises, it's actually business as usual - the norm.

I am more surprised that people are so whipped they do nothing about it. I don't have the answers, I wish I did. The idea of cleaning up the government seems an impossible task at best. But, what I will not do is cast my vote for corruption. I abstain.

Said before my Grandad used to say if you don't vote, then don't moan, but I doubt he would say the same about our current leaders and the blatant corruption, literally at the expense of lives.

I see the issues at Dover as a business that needs to grow to accommodate extra work, but does it really need 50 billion investment? More money flagged for someone's pocket - that's the bigger picture, that's the con, that's the reason we are in so much debt.

We have over complicated systems and bureaucratic procedures designed to make lots of people money along the way, in inefficient and expensive ways. These people are supposed to be winners, why do they always fail? It's no mistake and all by design.

Brexit may fail, Brexit may triumph, but none of that depends on the idea that leaving the single union was wrong. The EU cannot compete on the world stage and I feel we are better off negotiating from our standpoint of still being the financial powerhouse that we are before all of that power is wasted away through pilfering and corruption.

 

[mack341]

It was tongue in cheek, hence me sending him a picture of Mrs Merton as well (I'm sure we all remember Mrs Merton and her 'Let's have a heated debate!' line?)

And it's not about 'gotchas', Brexit was great when it existed in the realms of fantasy, it now exists in reality, and now it's made contact with reality, it isn't faring very well.

View attachment 170331

Sorry Chop I can only remember the paul daniels line re Mrs Merton. Good I'm glad it is not heated. Things are not fixed in time, a problem exists now but can be reduced to a non-issue I'm sure.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Here we have James Cleverly trying on the 'but Schengen!' line and Kay Burley isn't having any of it, saying that everyone knows full well the French would often just wave Brits through at Dover, at the end of the day it was people going from one EU country to another EU country, and they weren't that arsed. (Plus the Schengen checks were cursory at best anyway.)

They can't do that now, they have to protect the EU's external border which now exists at the Port of Dover. They didn't do it to us, we asked for it, Priti Patel boasted about ending freedom of movement, she just neglected to mention that she was ending the freedom of movement of Brits as well.

'Stuck in the car with kids going on holiday with a small bottle of water!' Oh, the horror of it!

That's a first-world primadonna problem right there.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A devastating update from Chris Grey on the dishonesty, denial, corruption and specious arguments around Brexit, and specifically relating to the Brexiteer insistence that we saw over the weekend was 'nothing to do with Brexit'.

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The Dover problems illustrate something else. At a general level it is that ‘taking back control’, especially of borders, is a two-edged business. Borders have two sides. At a more specific level, it puts a premium on co-operation with neighbours. To the extent that the Dover queues would be somewhat eased by more French passport staff – a cost to France – it would be helpful to have good relations with France. Instead, in addition to the provocations to it as an EU member over, especially, implementation of the Northern Ireland Protocol, the UK government has gone out of its way to be antagonistic, for example over cross-channel migrant crossings and fishing rights. Now

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to fix the Dover queues. It’s not just stupid, it’s embarrassing. And it’s not just embarrassing, it’s inept.

-------------------

That is the cause and consequence of something even worse. If all that were at stake were periodic holiday queues at Dover it would be annoying, but it would hardly matter. But it isn’t. If the queues were the only aspect of Brexit about which politics is dishonest it would be troubling, but it wouldn’t be disabling. But they aren’t. Precisely because these queues are the most visible effect of the damage of Brexit they are also a vivid reminder of all the lies, of all the false arguments, and all the false logic, and all the false claims of Brexit.

Most of all, the queues illustrate the existential corruption of Brexit. For there they are, the visible embodiment of what the Brexiters demanded and what they inflicted. Yet we’re not even told that they are a price worth paying for Brexit. No. We are expected to accept, or to collude in the acceptance, that they betoken nothing, that there is nothing to see here, that we should deny what is patently real and before our eyes.

 

[paul7388]

A devastating update from Chris Grey on the dishonesty, denial, corruption and specious arguments around Brexit, and specifically relating to the Brexiteer insistence that we saw over the weekend was 'nothing to do with Brexit'.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

View attachment 170336

The Dover problems illustrate something else. At a general level it is that ‘taking back control’, especially of borders, is a two-edged business. Borders have two sides. At a more specific level, it puts a premium on co-operation with neighbours. To the extent that the Dover queues would be somewhat eased by more French passport staff – a cost to France – it would be helpful to have good relations with France. Instead, in addition to the provocations to it as an EU member over, especially, implementation of the Northern Ireland Protocol, the UK government has gone out of its way to be antagonistic, for example over cross-channel migrant crossings and fishing rights. Now

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

to fix the Dover queues. It’s not just stupid, it’s embarrassing. And it’s not just embarrassing, it’s inept.

-------------------

That is the cause and consequence of something even worse. If all that were at stake were periodic holiday queues at Dover it would be annoying, but it would hardly matter. But it isn’t. If the queues were the only aspect of Brexit about which politics is dishonest it would be troubling, but it wouldn’t be disabling. But they aren’t. Precisely because these queues are the most visible effect of the damage of Brexit they are also a vivid reminder of all the lies, of all the false arguments, and all the false logic, and all the false claims of Brexit.

Most of all, the queues illustrate the existential corruption of Brexit. For there they are, the visible embodiment of what the Brexiters demanded and what they inflicted. Yet we’re not even told that they are a price worth paying for Brexit. No. We are expected to accept, or to collude in the acceptance, that they betoken nothing, that there is nothing to see here, that we should deny what is patently real and before our eyes.

Would hardly call anything there devastating.

All it actually looks like is an article wrote by someone who like yourself is totally against brexit and will try and make it look as bad as they can. Are you sure you never wrote that as it looks like everything you post on the subject lol.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Would hardly call anything there devastating.

All it actually looks like is an article wrote by someone who like yourself is totally against brexit and will try and make it look as bad as they can. Are you sure you never wrote that as it looks like everything you post on the subject lol.

I couldn't write as well about the subject as Mr Grey does.

 

[mack341]

Operation Stack is a procedure used by Kent Police and the Port of Dover in England to park (or "stack") lorries on the M20 motorway in Kent when services across the English Channel, such as those through the Channel Tunnel or from the Port of Dover, are disrupted, for example by bad weather, industrial action, fire or derailments in the tunnel.

According to Damian Green MP, by 2007 the system had been implemented 74 times in the 20 years since it was first introduced.[2]

In 2019 Operation Stack is due to be superseded by Operation Brock. Work began in May 2018 on this scheme managed by Highways England, designed as a temporary solution to manage lorry queueing and traffic flow at the Port of Dover after Brexit

-----------

Why doesn't the EU pay for these border staff, isn't it in effect an EU border? We pay them enough in brexit exit fees they should be able to afford to hire adequate levels of staff to man their border.

 

[dunover]

I couldn't write as well about the subject as Mr Grey does.

Why have you changed your avatar to Lenin?

 

[Kroffe]

Look - if I left the missus, I would have to run a whole household at my expense solely. I would pay 75% council tax, as opposed to 50%. Things woud take some getting used to, new driving routes, new premises. New shop probably. But fuck me, would I be happy to do that to get away from her. My house, my rules only.

Im disappointed in you, Dunover.

Basically what you are saying is that if it was 100% up to you to decide if and when to leave the EU, UK would still be in EU today, because unless im misunderstanding that is you how handle the 'missus situation'
You come to this thread and complain about EU, same as im sure you complain about the 'old ball and chain' when you are at the pub.
But its all just pretend.

Coming home from the pub you find a note on the kitchen table
'hope you had a fun night out playing with the boys, i have that powerlifting competition tomorrow so i went to bed ahead of you. Love you. - Dunoverette ♥
Ps. check under the pillow, i left a surprise for you'

You tippy toe to the bedroom and snuggle down in bed next to your wife, sharing a bed with such a hairy and muscly body would be scary for anyone else, but for you its the only place where you feel truly safe
Checking under the pillow you find the sausage roll she left for you, how cool is that.
You drift away to sleep with a big smile on your face, you cant wait to cheer for her tomorrow at the PL comp.

Sure you can leave her and EU at any given time, and you would, if only you didnt love them so damn much.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Why doesn't the EU pay for these border staff, isn't it in effect an EU border? We pay them enough in brexit exit fees they should be able to afford to hire adequate levels of staff to man their border.

The external EU border in Dover is manned by French officials, so the French pay for it. Six of them were late for work last Friday, and apparently six French blokes being late for work is all it takes to pretty much close down an entire UK county, and gridlock roads and motorways for miles and miles around. (Although all the border posts were manned all day on Saturday and the same thing happened again.)

Reports from Dover today say it's pretty much back to normal, but next time it gets very busy, the same thing will happen again, because Brexit has engineered in a slower and more bureaucratic process to get through customs - that's just a simple statement of fact.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Why have you changed your avatar to Lenin?

SAINT JEREMY will add a touch of left wing class to the place. Also, jam-making.

It was a toss-up between Jeremy and Diane Abbott.

 

[mack341]

esp 1996

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes THE GREAT CORBYN ? has many reservations about the EU, as do I. Remember, I've never been a massive fan of the EU despite being constantly painted as such in this thread. I've just always been of the opinion we're better off in it and trying to use our clout to reform things, rather than sat on the sidelines pissing and moaning about it.

This is not a new position, I've been saying this for years, in this very thread.

 

[dunover]

Yes THE GREAT CORBYN ? has many reservations about the EU, as do I. Remember, I've never been a massive fan of the EU despite being constantly painted as such in this thread. I've just always been of the opinion we're better off in it and trying to use our clout to reform things, rather than sat on the sidelines pissing and moaning about it.

This is not a new position, I've been saying this for years, in this very thread.

View attachment 170346

How come we still got that fucking Eurovision shite now we're out?? I hoped we'd be spared that, nearly as much as I hope we'll be spared Diane Flabbott and Jez Chavez for evermore.

 

[interlog]

The Schengen area is where the countries that are part of it abolished their internal border controls and allows free movement whilst you are within the Schengen zone.

Considering that the UK was never in the Schengen zone, the border between the UK and France was always an external border just as it is now since Brexit.

The French had a similar duty to protect that same border then as they have now. Yet prior to Brexit they were slap dash with it, now they're not.

Tells you exactly what the French are playing at.

When we travelled/travel many a times between Stansted and Eindhoven, our passports were thoroughly checked, before and after Brexit. No difference in time spent at the Dutch border control.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The Schengen area is where the countries that are part of it abolished their internal border controls and allows free movement whilst you are within the Schengen zone.

Considering that the UK was never in the Schengen zone, the border between the UK and France was always an external border just as it is now since Brexit.

The French had a similar duty to protect that same border then as they have now. Yet prior to Brexit they were slap dash with it, now they're not.

Tells you exactly what the French are playing at.

When we travelled/travel many a times between Stansted and Eindhoven, our passports were thoroughly checked, before and after Brexit. No difference in time spent at the Dutch border control.

I honestly don't see the point of you fixating on this interlog, it's like you've decided that the answer has to be 'It's nothing to do with Brexit' and are reverse-engineering to a question that will deliver that answer.

I mean, I actually agree with you on most of this:

1) The French should have been implementing Schengen border checks at Dover before Brexit, but when it got very busy they didn't, in order to keep things flowing.
2) The new border checks haven't made much difference at airports, we're talking maybe 10 extra seconds to get a passport stamped.

But you can't take those two facts and then assert that the situation we saw at Dover over the weekend is 'nothing to do with Brexit', at this point it's completely irrelevant what the French were doing two years ago or five years ago or ten years ago, or whether the moon is made out of cheese or not. They didn't do the Schengen border checks at all times, everyone seemed to know about it, and no one seemed to care. (Witness Kay Burley telling James Cleverly 'Oh come on you know they just used to wave us through when it was busy' or Rachel Johnson on LBC refer to it as 'The Schengen Wave', i.e. it was so common she even had a name for it.)

Also it's not true to say that the Schengen border is the same as an EU frontier border, for starters it didn't require passports to be stamped, and also they didn't need to check that you were going over the 90 days in any 180 days, they literally just had to verify it was a valid passport, whereas now there's an extra check AND they need to stamp it - and when you've got cars full of people going through Dover, that's a slower process. (Quite different to an airport queue when everyone's on foot.)

When you say things like 'Tells you exactly what the French are playing at' you're just playing the victim card, the French don't care, they don't give a shit, Brexit has happened, the UK left the EU, it's all done, we're just another third country now, they don't care enough to try and 'punish' us - (plus the prevailing opinion in the EU is that we've done a very good job of punishing ourselves) - it's just a load of border control staff doing their shifts on the job. (And if they are able to 'punish' us, then taking back control didn't work very well, did it?) As the French MP guy said over the weekend, 'This is just a consequence of Brexit, we didn't ask the UK to leave the EU'.

Seriously interlog, how can you expect to leave the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union, and actually have Priti Evil Patel PUBLICLY BOAST about ending freedom of movement, and then expect there to be absolutely no change at the UK's borders? Whose freedom of movement did you think was being ended, everyone except the British?

You're arguing about something that is, at this point, an utter and complete irrelevance, the French are implementing the rules as they exist now, the rules are different to those that existed before Brexit, we chose Brexit and we chose the type of Brexit we wanted, we chose the rules that would apply to us, cause and effect.

Here's Rachel Johnson talking about 'The Airy Schengen Wave' - you're acting like it's some sort of terrible outrage that has only just come to light, when as far as I can tell it was very well known it was something that happened on a regular basis at Dover, and no one gave a shit.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This guy does the whole thing in 2m13s, if you're going to disagree with this then you're honestly into the territory of arguing that black is white and up is down.

Why is it so hard to say, 'Yeah we've left, some things are a bit slower and more bureaucratic now as a result, but that's a price worth paying for us taking back control of our borders and restoring sovereignty'?

The point of Brexit was to change things, yes, especially around borders and border controls? So why when something changes is the answer 'THAT CHANGE IS NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT'?

 

[interlog]

Also it's not true to say that the Schengen border is the same as an EU frontier border, for starters it didn't require passports to be stamped, and also they didn't need to check that you were going over the 90 days in any 180 days, they literally just had to verify it was a valid passport

So how do you distinguish between a white male from the UK going to France and it being the first stop into the Schengen area (not needing a visa) and a white male from the USA (needing a visa) going to France and it being the first stop into the Schengen area without doing a proper passport check? You needed to have checked the passport properly if you are doing the job of border checks correctly, something that the French clearly didn't do. The Dutch did because everytime prior to Brexit they properly checked the passports.

Besides, if the Schengen border wasn't the same as an EU border, then why have border controls in the first place.

If the French did what they did before (i.e. not properly checking the passports) it would have reliefed some of the pressure. Not all of it, because of the high volume of travellers, the roadnetwork leading into Kent and, apparently, an accident on the motorway that caused even further delays.

 

[mack341]

Why is it so hard to say, 'Yeah we've left, some things are a bit slower and more bureaucratic now as a result, but that's a price worth paying for us taking back control of our borders and restoring sovereignty'?

I think we have haven't we, plus any such problems witnessed recently are reduceable via putting on more staff, if the french are happy to piss off thousands of tourists travelling to their country [who will spend money and help their economy] then more fool them.

 

[Spikie]

Central Europe is short of workers after thousands of Ukrainians have left their labour market ….

Is that because of Brexit too ???

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So how do you distinguish between a white male from the UK going to France and it being the first stop into the Schengen area (not needing a visa) and a white male from the USA (needing a visa) going to France and it being the first stop into the Schengen area without doing a proper passport check? You needed to have checked the passport properly if you are doing the job of border checks correctly, something that the French clearly didn't do. The Dutch did because everytime prior to Brexit they properly checked the passports.

Besides, if the Schengen border wasn't the same as an EU border, then why have border controls in the first place.

If the French did what they did before (i.e. not properly checking the passports) it would have reliefed some of the pressure. Not all of it, because of the high volume of travellers, the roadnetwork leading into Kent and, apparently, an accident on the motorway that caused even further delays.

I don't know why they didn't do it properly before interlog, I'm agreeing with you here, according to the rules they should have done the checks required by Schengen but it was apparently an open secret that when Dover got busy, they didn't. It seems impossible to conceive that other Schengen countries didn't know about it, but as far as I'm aware it never seemed to be raised as any sort of problem, so maybe they just weren't that arsed given that it was an internal EU border being crossed into Schengen rather than from a non-EU country into Schengen? (i.e. You've already had to get into the EU to get into the UK, so whilst technically there should have been the Schengen check when moving from the UK to France, it wasn't seen as that important.)

Maybe other EU countries have made it clear to France that they expect them to police the EU border properly, maybe the French have decided to do it properly because they're more arsed about the EU border than they were a Schengen border, or maybe the guy in charge of the Dover French Border Controls really doesn't like Brits because he once copped off with a lass from Southend and she laughed at his dick and said it was too small, and he's decided to be a pain in the arse about it.

I really don't know and frankly it really doesn't matter, the French are policing the borders in the manner expected of them now that the UK is a third country outside the EU, and that comes with a bit of extra friction and a slightly slower process.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Central Europe is short of workers after thousands of Ukrainians have left their labour market ….

Is that because of Brexit too ???

If only there was a clue.

I genuinely don't understand the whole 'something else has happened somewhere else in the world, is that because of Brexit too, eh? EH?' stuff, or the point it's supposed to be making. Like it's ever even been remotely suggested by

Wokesel Libtard Snowflake Remoaners​

that everything bad happening anywhere in the world is the fault of Brexit.

 

[Matti]

So how do you distinguish between a white male from the UK going to France and it being the first stop into the Schengen area (not needing a visa) and a white male from the USA (needing a visa) going to France and it being the first stop into the Schengen area without doing a proper passport check? You needed to have checked the passport properly if you are doing the job of border checks correctly, something that the French clearly didn't do. The Dutch did because everytime prior to Brexit they properly checked the passports.

Besides, if the Schengen border wasn't the same as an EU border, then why have border controls in the first place.

If the French did what they did before (i.e. not properly checking the passports) it would have reliefed some of the pressure. Not all of it, because of the high volume of travellers, the roadnetwork leading into Kent and, apparently, an accident on the motorway that caused even further delays.

So the French gave you some slack when you belonged to the same club. Now you left the club and still want to be treated as you are part of it……

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So the French gave you some slack when you belonged to the same club. Now you left the club and still want to be treated as you are part of it……

'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I must say Casinomeister looks a lot nicer now that we have ? THE MAGNIFICENT CORBYN ? adorning threads around the place.

 

[dunover]

I must say Casinomeister looks a lot nicer now that we have ? THE MAGNIFICENT CORBYN ? adorning threads around the place.

I get it, he's a kindred spirit of the remoaners, both got completely stuffed in their respective 2016 & 2019 polls..

 

[pinnit2014]

Always wondered what happened to him - was he not leading the UK into Communism the promised land?

Greatest achievement was to give me a hankering for wearing some Tweed. Didn't last long though.

 

[interlog]

So the French gave you some slack when you belonged to the same club. Now you left the club and still want to be treated as you are part of it……

But we weren't quite in the club though. We were outside of the Schengen area.

 

[Matti]

But we weren't quite in the club though. We were outside of the Schengen area.

You where in the EU club and I gather you got some slack, even though you where not part of Schengen, because of that. Now you have decided that you want to be totally out and therefore are being treated just like any other third country.

These rules are not really strange and I think you apply similar rules when third country residence enters the UK or am I wrong about that?

 

[Matti]

But we weren't quite in the club though. We were outside of the Schengen area.

Can also add that as part of the EU there was Freedom of movement. I believe that was a contributing factor to Brexit that many didn’t like that freedom for Polish, Romanians etc to come to the uk.
Now that is gone but this of course goes both ways.

 

[mack341]

Can also add that as part of the EU there was Freedom of movement. I believe that was a contributing factor to Brexit that many didn’t like that freedom for Polish, Romanians etc to come to the uk.
Now that is gone but this of course goes both ways.

The number of people moving here annually was astronomical, but also bad elements ruined it for the good ones. If there had been a quota and some sensible restrictions [i.e. no rapists, jailbirds etc] it would have been far less provocative.

In the Early EU membership years no one really noticed the freedom of movement in terms of workforce, most of the member countries had similar standards of living and opportunity so why move, it would mainly be high level professionals.

Even in sweden afaik a load of weapons from the balkans found/finding their way there, grenades etc..so these things aren't managed properly, the principles are all well and good on paper but not in reality.

 

[interlog]

Can also add that as part of the EU there was Freedom of movement. I believe that was a contributing factor to Brexit that many didn’t like that freedom for Polish, Romanians etc to come to the uk.
Now that is gone but this of course goes both ways.

Prior to Brexit any non Schengen European citizen could freely work and come to the UK. So your Romanian could freely travel and work in the UK without the need for a Visa. It has nothing to do with Schengen at all.

So I am not getting your argument regarding this at all?

 

[irish-ranger]

The referendum never needed to be called in the first place, it was basically a cowardly act by Cameron because he didn't have the moral courage to fight off Farage's racist anti-immigrant baiting rhetoric and have a sensible debate around the legitimate concerns their were around the EU, and instead took the easier option of pledging to hold a referendum.

Good god man have you ever considered getting a job on BBC radio 4..

 

[dunover]

Good god man have you ever considered getting a job on BBC radio 4..

OR

Take your pick.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Looks like there weren't enough patriotic Brits to do it after all.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Looks like there weren't enough patriotic Brits to do it after all.

View attachment 170637

So your answer to work-shy Brits is to bring in low-paid workers fleeing from other countries to do the work? Who live in cramped conditions and, after paying the head-of-the-house bossman (who is involved in the criminally organised set-up of 'escape to slavery'), send what little money they have back home out of the economy.

And, let's not forget the boss-mans money, which goes back to the criminal organisation, funnily enough - back home, along with his money, or hers, which, also goes back home. Not a smooth move and not one that benefits the UK.

I propose that if we have a system where able Brits are work-shy is not forcing them to work, then the system and the people who run it are to blame. Not the migrant workers for wanting a better life, and not the society of laziness we have created through our nannying and failure to tackle problems head-on with even an ounce of common sense for the last 10 years.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So your answer to work-shy Brits is to bring in low-paid workers fleeing from other countries to do the work? Who live in cramped conditions and, after paying the head-of-the-house bossman (who is involved in the criminally organised set-up of 'escape to slavery'), send what little money they have back home out of the economy.

And, let's not forget the boss-mans money, which goes back to the criminal organisation, funnily enough - back home, along with his money, or hers, which, also goes back home. Not a smooth move and not one that benefits the UK.

I propose that if we have a system where able Brits are work-shy is not forcing them to work, then the system and the people who run it are to blame. Not the migrant workers for wanting a better life, and not the society of laziness we have created through our nannying and failure to tackle problems head-on with even an ounce of common sense for the last 10 years.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but for the jobs to be even remotely attractive to Brits they would be have to be reasonably well paid (minimum wage wouldn't cut it), along with decent working conditions (and given that many people would have to travel, accommodation of a satisfactory quality too), employee rights and so on.

Of course all of this is an anathema to capitalism and Truss, so she'll do it on the cheap with migrant labour instead.

It's worth remembering that this is hard physical labour, and not as 'unskilled' as some people would like to insist, involving long hours, working at unsociable times, and unless you happen live close to the one of the farming areas where all this stuff is grown, a long way from home too. It's also very much work that can only be done by younger, physically able and strong people, with high levels of endurance. i.e. There isn't perhaps quite the pool of UK labour ready and willing to take on this work that you might think.

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How many people, for example, can go and live down in Cornwall for a couple of months to pick daffodils? Wages of £14-£30 per hour were available.

 

[bamberfishcake]

I don't entirely disagree with you, but for the jobs to be even remotely attractive to Brits they would be have to be reasonably well paid (minimum wage wouldn't cut it), along with decent working conditions (and given that many people would have to travel, accommodation of a satisfactory quality too), employee rights and so on.

Of course all of this is an anathema to capitalism and Truss, so she'll do it on the cheap with migrant labour instead.

It's worth remembering that this is hard physical labour, and not as 'unskilled' as some people would like to insist, involving long hours, working at unsociable times, and unless you happen live close to the one of the farming areas where all this stuff is grown, a long way from home too. It's also very much work that can only be done by younger, physically able and strong people, with high levels of endurance. i.e. There isn't perhaps quite the pool of UK labour ready and willing to take on this work that you might think.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

How many people, for example, can go and live down in Cornwall for a couple of months to pick daffodils? Wages of £14-£30 per hour were available.

View attachment 170639
View attachment 170640

I understand why a business might want to do that at a local level. It's a toss-up between unenthusiastic Brits being forced to turn up, or migrant workers, which due to their environment/upbringing/conditioning, tend to be more motivated.

I just think it's another issue being skirted around, and a proposed solution which may be good in the short term but actually does more harm in the long run. Reckon there are plenty of Brits on Universal Credit who could be chaperoned into a mini-bus each day around Devon and Cornwall. The wages come off their credits along with the bus fare.

Afraid I don't have a lot of faith in these people who are supposedly masters of industry and of superior intelligence, who don't plumb for more direct solutions, especially now we are out of the EU and we can make our own rules.

 

[interlog]

I don't entirely disagree with you, but for the jobs to be even remotely attractive to Brits they would be have to be reasonably well paid (minimum wage wouldn't cut it), along with decent working conditions (and given that many people would have to travel, accommodation of a satisfactory quality too), employee rights and so on.

Of course all of this is an anathema to capitalism and Truss, so she'll do it on the cheap with migrant labour instead.

It's worth remembering that this is hard physical labour, and not as 'unskilled' as some people would like to insist, involving long hours, working at unsociable times, and unless you happen live close to the one of the farming areas where all this stuff is grown, a long way from home too. It's also very much work that can only be done by younger, physically able and strong people, with high levels of endurance. i.e. There isn't perhaps quite the pool of UK labour ready and willing to take on this work that you might think.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

How many people, for example, can go and live down in Cornwall for a couple of months to pick daffodils? Wages of £14-£30 per hour were available.

View attachment 170639
View attachment 170640

So if the Eastern Europeans can (or rather are willing) to do it, why can't the British? £14/hr is above minimum wage and £30 per hour (I guess that this can be earned because of a bonus involved) is a very good wage by any standard.

Is it because the British are shy of doing that hard graft and rather sit at home in front of the telly being funded by the tax payer? Perhaps that needs addressing.

 

[pinnit2014]

Not helped by the fact you have a system that doesn't promote working - pretty sure people will know people who will have had to cut their hours/don't accept more just to make sure they 'don't lose money' because of the thresholds.