Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

I must've missed this, interesting parting shot from Boris, aligns with my fears that the establishment haven't accepted brexit and want the uk back in. Getting bojo out of the seat of power is the 1st obvious step

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever, it is happening across all parts in the world.

OK so now we have the actual person in charge of the Port of Dover saying that Brexit has introduced extra checks and slowed the process down.

'Nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever' is quite the position to adopt here.

Maybe Doug Bannister is a secret Remoaner who's trying to undo Brexit as well.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So the situation today is that all the border control booths are manned, and have been since the start of the day. It doesn't really seem to be making much difference, queues are still stacking up massively, ferry companies are telling people to get to Dover at least FIVE HOURS before their crossing, the roads in and around Dover are gridlocked again, with massive tailbacks out along the motorways.

The simple fact here is that in a post-Brexit world it takes longer to get through Customs because there are extra checks that need to be made, this is the reality of being a third country, outside the EU.

Saying 'nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever' is now a simple denial of objective reality, it'd be like standing in a lake and insisting your feet weren't wet.

We must take back control of our borders! No, not you France, don’t you do that.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Putting an extra stamp on a passport must take no more than 2 secs.

Whilst looking for annual travel figures I came across this. Look at the annual travel figures for the last two years, but yes, clearly Brexit and nothing to do with the pandemic.

Also quite interesting that the number of road haulage vehicles has hardly changed - they must have been travelling empty, what with all the disastrous countrywide food and production shortages that crippled the UK public and economy, all because of Brexit - allegedly

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Putting an extra stamp on a passport must take no more than 2 secs.

Whilst looking for annual travel figures I came across this. Look at the annual travel figures for the last two years, but yes, clearly Brexit and nothing to do with the pandemic.

Also quite interesting that the number of road haulage vehicles has hardly changed - they must have been travelling empty, what with all the disastrous countrywide food and production shortages that crippled the UK public and economy, all because of Brexit - allegedly

View attachment 170278

Why must there always be this dreadfully reductive 'Thing X also happened, so Brexit must be nothing to do with it' approach, be it the pandemic, or war in Ukraine, or whatever?

Yes of course the pandemic had an absolutely huge impact on the travel industry, it happened, but Brexit also happened. Just because the pandemic happened as well doesn't mean Brexit's impacts won't be felt too.

I mean, the whole point of Brexit was to change things, right? If it wasn't going to make any difference to anything then there was no point in doing it in the first place.

Changes at the borders were one of its biggest selling points, taking back control, keeping all those pesky immigrants out, but it turns out other countries have borders too, and France is now looking after its borders - this means extra checks at Customs.

The Chief Executive of the Port of Dover has explicitly stated, on the record, that post-Brexit customs checks take longer than they did before, even if it's only a small amount of time per person, that really adds up when you've got tens of thousands of people moving through there.

Dover is running at full capacity today, all the border control booths are manned, but it can't cope, Brexit has slowed things down and the entire operation has dropped on its arse.

As an arch Remoaner I've lost count of the number of times I've heard 'You lost, get over it', well this is 'You won, get over it' - Brexit has consequences, this is one of them.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Why must there always be this dreadfully reductive 'Thing X also happened

Don't know, that's a big question. My posts tend to focus on facts, not mainstream media fiction, which, contrary to reductive hard-honest facts, inflame and divide opinion by exaggerating consequences and simply don't give the facts, as true journalism does. I do not subscribe to the media propaganda that you seem to lean towards with your posts.

I mean, the whole point of Brexit was to change things, right?

Absolutely, for the public, but for the politicians, I think it has been used as an opportunity to make money and divide the population even further, among many other things. Besides, you have to give it some time, we only left 18 months ago.

The Chief Executive of the Port of Dover has explicitly stated, on the record, that post-Brexit customs checks take longer than they did before

Of course he has, and logic dictates the checks take longer, but the impact is negligible in my opinion, and nothing posted in this thread so far has me convinced otherwise.

Brexit has consequences, this is one of them.

Agreed there will be consequences, but can't you see the bigger problem is not that we left or remained, it's the corrupted democracy we have at the helm that is 9 out of 10 times, the root of all our problems?

The fact remains that the EU trade agreements cannot, nor have they ever been able to leverage weight against the US and China, which was the sole reason of its setup. You may be surprised to know that I support the idea, but it seems it cannot achieve what is was designed to do. And we have much bigger problems to deal with first in my opinion, like dethroning the cause of all our problems.

 

[paul7388]

Why must there always be this dreadfully reductive 'Thing X also happened, so Brexit must be nothing to do with it' approach, be it the pandemic, or war in Ukraine, or whatever?

Yes of course the pandemic had an absolutely huge impact on the travel industry, it happened, but Brexit also happened. Just because the pandemic happened as well doesn't mean Brexit's impacts won't be felt too.

I mean, the whole point of Brexit was to change things, right? If it wasn't going to make any difference to anything then there was no point in doing it in the first place.

Changes at the borders were one of its biggest selling points, taking back control, keeping all those pesky immigrants out, but it turns out other countries have borders too, and France is now looking after its borders - this means extra checks at Customs.

The Chief Executive of the Port of Dover has explicitly stated, on the record, that post-Brexit customs checks take longer than they did before, even if it's only a small amount of time per person, that really adds up when you've got tens of thousands of people moving through there.

Dover is running at full capacity today, all the border control booths are manned, but it can't cope, Brexit has slowed things down and the entire operation has dropped on its arse.

As an arch Remoaner I've lost count of the number of times I've heard 'You lost, get over it', well this is 'You won, get over it' - Brexit has consequences, this is one of them.

But there always has been queues at Dover and huge delays for many a reason. Most worse than now. I just simply picked 2 years 2015 and 2016 to see what would come up.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Don't know, that's a big question. My posts tend to focus on facts, not mainstream media fiction, which, contrary to reductive hard-honest facts, inflame and divide opinion by exaggerating consequences and simply don't give the facts, as true journalism does. I do not subscribe to the media propaganda that you seem to lean towards with your posts.



Absolutely, for the public, but for the politicians, I think it has been used as an opportunity to make money and divide the population even further, among many other things. Besides, you have to give it some time, we only left 18 months ago.



Of course he has, and logic dictates the checks take longer, but the impact is negligible in my opinion, and nothing posted in this thread so far has me convinced otherwise.



Agreed there will be consequences, but can't you see the bigger problem is not that we left or remained, it's the corrupted democracy we have at the helm that is 9 out of 10 times, the root of all our problems?

The fact remains that the EU trade agreements cannot, nor have they ever been able to leverage weight against the US and China, which was the sole reason of its setup. You may be surprised to know that I support the idea, but it seems it cannot achieve what is was designed to do. And we have much bigger problems to deal with first in my opinion, like dethroning the cause of all our problems.

I'm sorry bamber but how can you say in one breath that you focus on facts, and then with the next breath say that in your opinion the guy whose job it is to run the Port of Dover is overstating the impact of new post-Brexit customs checks? I mean, he's there, it's literally his job, he's telling people what's happening and why.

And what is 'mainstream media fiction'? Are you saying that outlets such as Sky News, BBC News and The Guardian are just making shit up? Where do you recommend we go to get the 'true journalism' of which you speak?

What I do agree with you on is that Brexit has basically been used as a conjob for all the usual suspects to enrich themselves further at the expense of everyone else, but even without that element it was still a disastrous act of self-harm and nothing would have been able to change that.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But there always has been queues at Dover and huge delays for many a reason. Most worse than now. I just simply picked 2 years 2015 and 2016 to see what would come up.

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So the first one there was because of a French strike, and the second one was increased security due to terror attacks in France.

It's no secret that Dover is an incredibly busy port, it's got constrained operating space, the road and motorway links to it aren't great, and it's basically running pretty 'close to the wire' most of the time, therefore it doesn't take much disruption for things to drop on their arse - as happened in the two examples you cite there.

And this is the whole point, Brexit is the disruption, Brexit is the 'terror attack' or the 'French strike' impact but it's permanent and it's never going to go away, which is why the port is essentially in meltdown with nothing 'bad' happening. The port is running at full capacity, all the passport booths are manned, but the extra bureaucracy that Brexit has introduced to the process of travelling to France means that a port which is always pretty close to the wire, can't cope at all.

As you say yourself, 'there always has been queues at Dover and huge delays for many a reason', and now Brexit is the reason for the huge delays that we've seen yesterday and today.

 

[paul7388]

So the first one there was because of a French strike, and the second one was increased security due to terror attacks in France.

It's no secret that Dover is an incredibly busy port, it's got constrained operating space, the road and motorway links to it aren't great, and it's basically running pretty 'close to the wire' most of the time, therefore it doesn't take much disruption for things to drop on their arse - as happened in the two examples you cite there.

And this is the whole point, Brexit is the disruption, Brexit is the 'terror attack' or the 'French strike' impact but it's permanent and it's never going to go away, which is why the port is essentially in meltdown with nothing 'bad' happening. The port is running at full capacity, all the passport booths are manned, but the extra bureaucracy that Brexit has introduced to the process of travelling to France means that a port which is always pretty close to the wire, can't cope at all.

As you say yourself, 'there always has been queues at Dover and huge delays for many a reason', and now Brexit is the reason for the huge delays that we've seen yesterday and today.

It is the busiest port out. Delays are inevitable.

Yes Brexit might be causing slightly longer delays but not that much of an impact.

More so the fact there was not enough staff. It is start of school Holidays in England and many more were travelling this weekend. Does not actually matter if Brexit exists, if you have a hundred times more staff. If so many people want to travel at one time there is going to be a delay.

Go and get on a bus. If stop is empty bus leaves right away. If you have 40 dithering old pensioners getting on and messing about looking for bus passes then the bus ends up being delayed 10 minutes.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It is the busiest port out. Delays are inevitable.

Yes Brexit might be causing slightly longer delays but not that much of an impact.

More so the fact there was not enough staff. It is start of school Holidays in England and many more were travelling this weekend. Does not actually matter if Brexit exists, if you have a hundred times more staff. If so many people want to travel at one time there is going to be a delay.

Go and get on a bus. If stop is empty bus leaves right away. If you have 40 dithering old pensioners getting on and messing about looking for bus passes then the bus ends up being delayed 10 minutes.

OK so we're kind of on the same page then.

Dover is a very busy port, there isn't much slack in the system, and at its busiest times it doesn't take much disruption to really knock it for six and introduce horrible delays.

The post-Brexit checks slow things down a bit, not massively, but a bit, and they do so for EVERY SINGLE PERSON going through the port.

So multiply that across tens of thousands of people in tens of thousands of vehicles all trying to get through the port, and all of a sudden all those little delays add up to a very large collective delay.

(I've seen this comment made elsewhere - Having worked in Dover at passport control I can vouch for the fact that it takes a lot longer to check and stamp a carful of peoples passports than to simply wave them through as per pre-Brexit. French immigration are enforcing the required entry rules on behalf of the whole Schengen zone. Brexiteers voted to give up their right to freedom of movement. If they want it back perhaps it’s time to tell their MP’s.)

 

[interlog]

OK so we're kind of on the same page then.

Dover is a very busy port, there isn't much slack in the system, and at its busiest times it doesn't take much disruption to really knock it for six and introduce horrible delays.

The post-Brexit checks slow things down a bit, not massively, but a bit, and they do so for EVERY SINGLE PERSON going through the port.

So multiply that across tens of thousands of people in tens of thousands of vehicles all trying to get through the port, and all of a sudden all those little delays add up to a very large collective delay.

(I've seen this comment made elsewhere - Having worked in Dover at passport control I can vouch for the fact that it takes a lot longer to check and stamp a carful of peoples passports than to simply wave them through as per pre-Brexit. French immigration are enforcing the required entry rules on behalf of the whole Schengen zone. Brexiteers voted to give up their right to freedom of movement. If they want it back perhaps it’s time to tell their MP’s.)

Well that comment made elsewhere is clearly made by somebody that wanted the UK to stay in the EU going by the wording used.

Of course it is busy in Dover, just as it is busy at the many airports and the road network across the UK. Beginning of summer holidays has something to do with it.

And the Port Chief of Dover would of course blame somebody else for the queues. It wouldn't have anything to do with what happens on his watch of course

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well that comment made elsewhere is clearly made by somebody that wanted the UK to stay in the EU going by the wording used.

Of course it is busy in Dover, just as it is busy at the many airports and the road network across the UK. Beginning of summer holidays has something to do with it.

And the Port Chief of Dover would of course blame somebody else for the queues. It wouldn't have anything to do with what happens on his watch of course

Well here's a five minute interview with him.

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There is literally no one better placed to explain what's going on and why, and yet our resident armchair experts still seem to think they know more about what's going on, it's quite the sight to behold.

Sky News had a report on it earlier, what used to happen is that when the port was busy you could literally just wave your passport at the officials, or indeed a handful of passports if you had four or five people in the car, and you'd be allowed through. That isn't an option now, every passport has to be individually checked and stamped, they reckoned that a car with two people in it could be done in 45-60 seconds, a car with four people in it was going to take maybe a couple of minutes, it doesn't sound like much, but this is something that used to take five seconds or less.

So yes, add that up when you've got maybe ten thousand cars going through in a day, along with all the usual freight traffic, and it's easy to see how things could grind to a halt.

It's slower and more bureaucratic than it was pre-Brexit, it takes longer to get through customs now than it did before, this is just a simple statement of fact.

Like I said to bamber a little earlier today, this was the whole point of Brexit, right? That'd it change things? Well here we are, it has.

 

[interlog]

Well here's a five minute interview with him.

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There is literally no one better placed to explain what's going on and why, and yet our resident armchair experts still seem to think they know more about what's going on, it's quite the sight to behold.

Sky News had a report on it earlier, what used to happen is that when the port was busy you could literally just wave your passport at the officials, or indeed a handful of passports if you had four or five people in the car, and you'd be allowed through. That isn't an option now, every passport has to be individually checked and stamped, they reckoned that a car with two people in it could be done in 45-60 seconds, a car with four people in it was going to take maybe a couple of minutes, it doesn't sound like much, but this is something that used to take five seconds or less.

So yes, add that up when you've got maybe ten thousand cars going through in a day, along with all the usual freight traffic, and it's easy to see how things could grind to a halt.

It's slower and more bureaucratic than it was pre-Brexit, it takes longer to get through customs now than it did before, this is just a simple statement of fact.

Like I said to bamber a little earlier today, this was the whole point of Brexit, right? That'd it change things? Well here we are, it has.

Ok so previously officials were not doing their job properly then because they SHOULD have checked passports rather than just let travellers wave them at them as we were never in the Shengen zone.

Maybe they are doing their job correct now just to make the point that we should never have left the EU. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Ok so previously officials were not doing their job properly then because they SHOULD have checked passports rather than just let travellers wave them at them as we were never in the Shengen zone.

Maybe they are doing their job correct now just to make the point that we should never have left the EU. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

Apparently it was something they did to keep things flowing when the port was really busy, Sky were interviewing people stuck in the queues and more than one of them said 'Yeah in the past you could just wave your passports at them and they'd let you through'.

So yes, they are doing the job correctly now, France is now responsible for maintaining the integrity of the EU's borders, we're a third country outside the EU, and they're taking the responsibility seriously. Remember, no one asked us to leave the EU, this isn't something that was forced upon us, we chose to make ourselves a third country and end freedom of movement, and that works in both directions.

EDIT TO ADD - And we chose to leave the Single Market and Customs Union as well, again, this was a choice we made. There are other, far saner versions of Brexit that could have been implemented, but we went for the loony tunes one.

 

[aceking123]

Damn now I know where all the illegals are coming from just wave a passport & hay presto

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It also turns out that Dover knew this was coming, they asked the UK Gov for some cash to beef up their ability to get people processed more quickly, the government refused.

But yeah, easier to blame the French I guess

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But the British government was offered a proposal back in 2020 to curtail the chaos at the border, but they rejected it.

The UK cabinet office snubbed a £33 million proposal to double the capacity for French government passport checks at Dover.

The money would have been used to double the number of French government passport booths from five to 10 in anticipation of more stringent requirements, including stamps in passports after January 1st, according to the Financial Times.

It came after the Port of Dover had repeatedly warned that it will need to substantially boost capacity for French controls, which under a reciprocal bilateral agreement enables passports to be checked before boarding the train or ferry to France in order to ease traffic flows.

 

[interlog]

Apparently it was something they did to keep things flowing when the port was really busy, Sky were interviewing people stuck in the queues and more than one of them said 'Yeah in the past you could just wave your passports at them and they'd let you through'.

So yes, they are doing the job correctly now, France is now responsible for maintaining the integrity of the EU's borders, we're a third country outside the EU, and they're taking the responsibility seriously. Remember, no one asked us to leave the EU, this isn't something that was forced upon us, we chose to make ourselves a third country and end freedom of movement, and that works in both directions.

EDIT TO ADD - And we chose to leave the Single Market and Customs Union as well, again, this was a choice we made. There are other, far saner versions of Brexit that could have been implemented, but we went for the loony tunes one.

Totally missing the point that they were meant to take their responsibility to protect the border too prior to Brexit, how else would they have known somebody flying into Gatwick from Timbaktu and travelling across by car is legible to enter the Schengen zone?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Totally missing the point that they were meant to take their responsibility to protect the border too prior to Brexit, how else would they have known somebody flying into Gatwick from Timbaktu and travelling across by car is legible to enter the Schengen zone?

Well yeah, coulda woulda shoulda, I guess they were more chilled out about it when we were an EU country, now we're not.

 

[interlog]

Well yeah, coulda woulda shoulda, I guess they were more chilled out about it when we were an EU country, now we're not.

A non argument. They basically couldn't be arsed before and are now making a point of it because we dared to leave their precious Union

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A non argument. They basically couldn't be arsed before and are now making a point of it because we dared to leave their precious Union

Ahh yes so they are PUNISHING us, I knew we'd get to the Brexit victim narrative eventually.

 

[interlog]

Are yes so they are PUNISHING us, I knew we'd get to the Brexit victim narrative eventually.

All it does, for me, is just confirm the reason that we're best out of it (and that is coming from somebody that has a European passport)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

All it does, for me, is just confirm the reason that we're best out of it (and that is coming from somebody that has a European passport)

Well if your measure of success is something being objectively worse than it was before, then I am happy for your satisfaction with the process.

I can understand it though, since Brexit has failed to deliver any single tangible benefit for the UK whatsoever, I guess it makes sense to double down on the NASTY MEANY EU story so that anything shit that happens post-Brexit becomes, perversely, validation for it having been the right thing to do in the first place.

 

[interlog]

Well if your measure of success is something being objectively worse than it was before, then I am happy for your satisfaction with the process.

I can understand it though, since Brexit has failed to deliver any single tangible benefit for the UK whatsoever, I guess it makes sense to double down on the NASTY MEANY EU story so that anything shit that happens post-Brexit becomes, perversely, validation for it having been the right thing to do in the first place.

Why would you want to be part of a Union that doesn't want to do it's bit and potect its borders (something the French clearly weren't interested in considering the waving of every Tom, Dick and Harry's passport) because that results in illegal immigraton, it in turn resulting in it costing money, it resulting in those countries begging for EU funds to cope with it, it resulting in the net contributors, such as the UK was, suffering.

 

[paul7388]

Are yes so they are PUNISHING us, I knew we'd get to the Brexit victim narrative eventually.

Think i would rather they are punishing us if it means they are doing the job correct.

Big deal it takes slightly longer to enter EU. But that is because we chose not to be in EU any longer. So i would expect us to have to go through correct procedures.

Same as i would not expect to enter Turkey, Australia, USA and many other countries without proper checks on Arrival.

You go abroad you expect to have to spend time waiting . Same reason as people have to be in airports hours before their flight leaves.

Even few years ago one time i went to Belfast. Literally took over 20 minutes to check people on the coach and scan bags etc. before we could get on ferry. And that was just travelling from Scotland to Northern Ireland.

But when the vote was chose to leave EU i can not remember seeing the slogan. You choose to leave then prepare for your documents to actually get checked and be prepared for an extra 30 seconds inconvenience while they stamp your passport.

Besides i think everyone was fully aware that leaving EU would require more time waiting if going abroad. It really should not be a surprise to anyone that on the busiest weekend of the year there are delays. Pretty sure there would have been delays even if we were still in EU.

 

[dunover]

Well if your measure of success is something being objectively worse than it was before, then I am happy for your satisfaction with the process.

I can understand it though, since Brexit has failed to deliver any single tangible benefit for the UK whatsoever, I guess it makes sense to double down on the NASTY MEANY EU story so that anything shit that happens post-Brexit becomes, perversely, validation for it having been the right thing to do in the first place.

Look - if I left the missus, I would have to run a whole household at my expense solely. I would pay 75% council tax, as opposed to 50%. Things woud take some getting used to, new driving routes, new premises. New shop probably. But fuck me, would I be happy to do that to get away from her. My house, my rules only.

 

[paul7388]

But i am starting to agree with the logic. If it causes delays and inconvenience do not do it.

On hot days do not allow thousands to travel to the beach as it causes traffic congestion and delays.

Roadworks should be banned. How dare they fix the roads and make people get delayed on their journeys. They chose to do the roadworks knowing damn well it would cause delays.

Seriously Chopley i know you are totally against Brexit. And maybe it will cause a lot of damage. But i think at the moment with so many other things to worry about delays to get to France is not really the end of the world.

Glad i never voted as being honest i could not really care whether we stayed in EU or left. I would probably have chose to remain but as it was voted to leave i accept that. Only vote i have done and will do is No to independence in Scotland. As that would do more damage to me than leaving EU ever did.

 

[pinnit2014]

But i am starting to agree with the logic. If it causes delays and inconvenience do not do it.

On hot days do not allow thousands to travel to the beach as it causes traffic congestion and delays.

Roadworks should be banned. How dare they fix the roads and make people get delayed on their journeys. They chose to do the roadworks knowing damn well it would cause delays.

Seriously Chopley i know you are totally against Brexit. And maybe it will cause a lot of damage. But i think at the moment with so many other things to worry about delays to get to France is not really the end of the world.

Glad i never voted as being honest i could not really care whether we stayed in EU or left. I would probably have chose to remain but as it was voted to leave i accept that. Only vote i have done and will do is No to independence in Scotland. As that would do more damage to me than leaving EU ever did.

 

[paul7388]

View attachment 170295

And i thought this thread could not get worse.

 

[bamberfishcake]

View attachment 170295

What has Anne Robinson got to do with Brexit?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What has Anne Robinson got to do with Brexit?

She has identified Brexit as the weakest link.

 

[pinnit2014]

What has Anne Robinson got to do with Brexit?

She's helping to Countdown the days to Indy Ref 2

 

[bamberfishcake]

She's helping to Countdown the days to Indy Ref 2

Do you think Scotland's independence is a good idea? or is that for another thread? Are you pro Scotxit?

 

[paul7388]

Do you think Scotland's independence is a good idea? or is that for another thread? Are you pro Scotxit?

He is not even Scottish so sod all to do with him lol. Unless he votes No then fine.

But i will answer. The whole thing is a complete joke just like our leader. How i detest that woman.

 

[paul7388]

The forum must have agreed with me on her as it posted my message twice lol.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Do you think Scotland's independence is a good idea? or is that for another thread? Are you pro Scotxit?

Pro Scotshit? ?

 

[pinnit2014]

Do you think Scotland's independence is a good idea? or is that for another thread? Are you pro Scotxit?

Well the SNP have produced such a detailed paper on it, cough, it's hard to argue with

To be honest, if you'd have asked me, more so 10 years ago, i'd have said no. But i'm probably a bit more open to it than then, though i'd probably still vote as i did at the last one (there's a few posters on this thread that would probably tip me to holding hands with Anne Robinson)

You'll find there's a large vote who, if it wasn't for the SNP/Green's, would probably shift theirs in favour but can't quite face appointing a lunatic.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But i am starting to agree with the logic. If it causes delays and inconvenience do not do it.

On hot days do not allow thousands to travel to the beach as it causes traffic congestion and delays.

Roadworks should be banned. How dare they fix the roads and make people get delayed on their journeys. They chose to do the roadworks knowing damn well it would cause delays.

Seriously Chopley i know you are totally against Brexit. And maybe it will cause a lot of damage. But i think at the moment with so many other things to worry about delays to get to France is not really the end of the world.

Glad i never voted as being honest i could not really care whether we stayed in EU or left. I would probably have chose to remain but as it was voted to leave i accept that. Only vote i have done and will do is No to independence in Scotland. As that would do more damage to me than leaving EU ever did.

Delays getting to France are indeed not the end of the world, but that isn't the point. No one said Brexit would be 'the end of the world', and let's face it, that's a pretty low bar to cross.

I talked earlier in this thread about 'the Brexit of small things', i.e. all the little ways that Brexit would incrementally make things worse, i.e. slower, more expensive, more bureaucratic, more inconvenient etc.

This is another thing to go on that list, because as a third country there is now more friction at our borders, and as tens of thousands of holiday makers have found, on what will be their first proper trip abroad since the pandemic, what used to be a quick and painless process of getting waved through customs, passing from one EU country to another, is now a massive ballache that involves sitting in gridlocked traffic for six hours or more.

Brexit was sold as being something that would make things better, Boris 'Massive Fucking Liar' Johnson didn't drive around in a big red bus with the words, 'BREXIT - IT WON'T BE THE END OF THE WORLD' written on the side of it, he drove around in a big red bus with a massive fucking lie written on the side of it.

Brexit is a con, sold by conmen, and now the con is getting found out in different ways, by different people, every single day. The pandemic provided a lot of cover for the harms of Brexit, what's happening at Dover is what will increasingly happen now that the smokescreen of Covid has lifted.

The 'Davis Downside Dossier' is currently sat at 674 downsides and 21 upsides -

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(David Davis of course, having famously said that Brexit would not have any downsides, only considerable upsides. Tell that to the families whose holidays have been getting off to a thoroughly rotten start over the last couple of days.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Don't worry, Liz is going to fix it with her SERIOUS FACE.

The irony here is almost off the charts, for starters she campaigned for Remain precisely because she understood that a hard Brexit would lead to this sort of shit, and now we're literally getting cross with the French for having taken back control of their borders precisely because of the type of Brexit we chose to enact.

Remember folks, this shit works both ways, we're not the only country with borders, we chose to end our own freedom of movement.

 

[interlog]

Don't worry, Liz is going to fix it with her SERIOUS FACE.

The irony here is almost off the charts, for starters she campaigned for Remain precisely because she understood that a hard Brexit would lead to this sort of shit, and now we're literally getting cross with the French for having taken back control of their borders precisely because of the type of Brexit we chose to enact.

Remember folks, this shit works both ways, we're not the only country with borders, we chose to end our own freedom of movement.

Nope, they just didn't do their job correctly prior to Brexit by letting all and sundry enter the Schengen zone that they were meant to control by means of letting every Tom, Dick and Harry wave their expired et all passports at them.

But because we dared to leave their precious Union they are now suddenly enforcing as they should have done before but clearly failed to do so.

 

[mack341]

I seem to remember a big 'this is brexit's fault!' here when there was a haulage problem a while back, either petrol or supermarket stocks. Then nothing since, so it got solved as likely this will.

However If the french carry on with more, deliberate make life difficult 'tricks' for their friendly neighbour, one solution could be to consumer boycott all of their products exported here, they'll soon about-turn.

Edit: Also apparently covid checks may be one of the reasons for delays:

Covid checks

Speaking of the pandemic, France still requires that passengers must be either fully vaccinated, or have a negative Covid test in order to enter the country.

Passengers can show either a QR code on their health app (either the French Tous Anti Covid or the British NHS app) or a paper certificate at the border.

Checking of the health pass for passengers from the UK has been varied, but many passengers have reported that checks have become more rigorous in the past few weeks, as France battles a seventh wave of cases.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nope, they just didn't do their job correctly prior to Brexit by letting all and sundry enter the Schengen zone that they were meant to control by means of letting every Tom, Dick and Harry wave their expired et all passports at them.

But because we dared to leave their precious Union they are now suddenly enforcing as they should have done before but clearly failed to do so.

I can't find any great information on this, from what I can see passports should have been at least given a cursory check prior to Brexit, but that now the checks are more thorough, so will take longer. However, that doesn't square up with what some of the travellers being interviewed on the news yesterday were saying, i.e. that at very busy times they would basically just be waved through as long as they were in possession of passports.

Either way, passports do need to be stamped now, which they didn't before, so that will take longer.

Maybe things were let slide before in a way that they aren't being now, maybe France thinks it has a more serious duty towards manning the border than it did before, or maybe they really are just doing it to try and 'punish the Brits'.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, the rules being enforced now are the rules that apply to third countries outside the EU, we can see that this was expected to be a problem because Dover asked for £33m a couple of years ago to get more border infrastructure in place, and the government refused to give them the money. (This has been widely reported over the last couple of days.)

Brexit - whats the difference..... - Page 197 - Casinomeister Forum

There's something else that's interesting here, I've lost track of the number of times folks in this thread have said words to the effect of, 'I knew Brexit would be a bit of a bumpy ride, I knew it wouldn't be perfect, I knew there'd be some teething troubles when I voted for it', and yet whenever we get a concrete, tangible example of Brexit having made something worse, all of a sudden IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT WHATSOEVER mode is instantaneously activated.

It seems to me like, if Leavers really believed in their project they’d say ‘yes, now we’ve left we’re a third country and that will increase bureaucracy and queues a bit, but it’s still worth it’. Instead they just deny Brexit’s a factor at all. It’s almost as if, deep down, they’re in denial about it.

 

[interlog]

I can't find any great information on this, from what I can see passports should have been at least given a cursory check prior to Brexit, but that now the checks are more thorough, so will take longer. However, that doesn't square up with what some of the travellers being interviewed on the news yesterday were saying, i.e. that at very busy times they would basically just be waved through as long as they were in possession of passports.

Either way, passports do need to be stamped now, which they didn't before, so that will take longer.

Maybe things were let slide before in a way that they aren't being now, maybe France thinks it has a more serious duty towards manning the border than it did before, or maybe they really are just doing it to try and 'punish the Brits'.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, the rules being enforced now are the rules that apply to third countries outside the EU, we can see that this was expected to be a problem because Dover asked for £33m a couple of years ago to get more border infrastructure in place, and the government refused to give them the money. (This has been widely reported over the last couple of days.)

Brexit - whats the difference..... - Page 197 - Casinomeister Forum

There's something else that's interesting here, I've lost track of the number of times folks in this thread have said words to the effect of, 'I knew Brexit would be a bit of a bumpy ride, I knew it wouldn't be perfect, I knew there'd be some teething troubles when I voted for it', and yet whenever we get a concrete, tangible example of Brexit having made something worse, all of a sudden IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT WHATSOEVER mode is instantaneously activated.

It seems to me like, if Leavers really believed in their project they’d say ‘yes, now we’ve left we’re a third country and that will increase bureaucracy and queues a bit, but it’s still worth it’. Instead they just deny Brexit’s a factor at all. It’s almost as if, deep down, they’re in denial about it.

Well some conflicting stuff going on. Dover has recovered but the problem has now shifted to Folkestone as per the below article. The Director of Public Affairs of the Eurotunnel is saying:

He said more staff have been laid on from the French side as that has been "quieter" but passport checks are accounted for in normal processing times.

Perhaps the French at Folkestone are waving travellers through or alternatively those in Dover are working, deliberately, slow.

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[interlog]

I seem to remember a big 'this is brexit's fault!' here when there was a haulage problem a while back, either petrol or supermarket stocks. Then nothing since, so it got solved as likely this will.

However If the french carry on with more, deliberate make life difficult 'tricks' for their friendly neighbour, one solution could be to consumer boycott all of their products exported here, they'll soon about-turn.

Edit: Also apparently covid checks may be one of the reasons for delays:

Covid checks

Speaking of the pandemic, France still requires that passengers must be either fully vaccinated, or have a negative Covid test in order to enter the country.

Passengers can show either a QR code on their health app (either the French Tous Anti Covid or the British NHS app) or a paper certificate at the border.

Checking of the health pass for passengers from the UK has been varied, but many passengers have reported that checks have become more rigorous in the past few weeks, as France battles a seventh wave of cases.

The shortage of LGV drivers was as a result of Covid and the lack of new LGV drivers passing their test in a timely manner. It certainly has recovered and provided that you pay a decent wage, you can attract LGV drivers. As a matter of fact, only this morning an agency driver approached me to ask if we had any full time vacancies. We don't, because we have filled all of the vacancies that we did have with us turning down candidates.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well some conflicting stuff going on. Dover has recovered but the problem has now shifted to Folkestone as per the below article. The Director of Public Affairs of the Eurotunnel is saying:

He said more staff have been laid on from the French side as that has been "quieter" but passport checks are accounted for in normal processing times.

Perhaps the French at Folkestone are waving travellers through or alternatively those in Dover are working, deliberately, slow.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So this guy is on the news, and he's saying that passport checks take longer now than they did before. (You can watch it for yourself, just fire up Sky News on YouTube and rewind it to the top of the hour.)

Interestingly, he also says that they predicted trouble because of the longer checks, so they are artificially capping how many vehicles and people they process on a daily basis (he specifically cites lower numbers this year than they took in 2018), but that the longer checks are still causing long delays.

So yes, it's slower now than it was before Brexit, and even operating at deliberately reduced capacity, the extra Brexit bureaucracy is causing horrendous delays and tailbacks.

Which is fine, this was expected, surely, now that Britain is a third country outside the EU? I mean, what's the point of leaving if it wasn't going to change anything?

 

[interlog]

So this guy is on the news, and he's saying that passport checks take longer now than they did before. (You can watch it for yourself, just fire up Sky News on YouTube and rewind it to the top of the hour.)

Interestingly, he also says that they predicted trouble because of the longer checks, so they are artificially capping how many vehicles and people they process on a daily basis (he specifically cites lower numbers this year than they took in 2018), but that the longer checks are still causing long delays.

So yes, it's slower now than it was before Brexit, and even operating at deliberately reduced capacity, the extra Brexit bureaucracy is causing horrendous delays and tailbacks.

Which is fine, this was expected, surely, now that Britain is a third country outside the EU? I mean, what's the point of leaving if it wasn't going to change anything?

View attachment 170312

So if passport control takes longer, then why no continious queues at both Dover and Folkestone as you would expect?

Perhaps it has something to do with the short staffing of the French and the sheer volume of traffic attempting to get across the channel. The same sheer amount of traffic that causes traffic congestion during peak holiday travel in the UK.

So, I insist, fuck all to do with Brexit.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So if passport control takes longer, then why no continious queues at both Dover and Folkestone as you would expect?

Perhaps it has something to do with the short staffing of the French and the sheer volume of traffic attempting to get across the channel. The same sheer amount of traffic that causes traffic congestion during peak holiday travel in the UK.

So, I insist, fuck all to do with Brexit.

I am impressed that you know more about this than both the Chief Executive of the Port of Dover and Eurotunnel's Director Of Public Affairs, you should totally get a job there or something, you'd make a fortune!

The self-styled exceptionalism of a Leaver truly knows no bounds. Take a look at all the evidence, throw it in the bin and decide that your opinion on the matter is actually the one real truth.

 

[interlog]

I am impressed that you know more about this than both the Chief Executive of the Port of Dover and Eurotunnel's Director Of Public Affairs, you should totally get a job there or something, you'd make a fortune!

The self-styled exceptionalism of a Leaver truly knows no bounds. Take a look at all the evidence, throw it in the bin and decide that your opinion on the matter is actually the one real truth.

I am more than capable to form my own opinion. I don't need social media such as Twatter for that.

 

[interlog]

I am out of this now. You try to have a debate and all you get is belittling.

Adios.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I am out of this now. You try to have a debate and all you get is belittling.

Adios.

I am not attempting to belittle you, but you're making statements that fly directly in the face of the available evidence, including from the exact people who are uniquely well placed to explain the realities of the situations at both Dover and Folkstone.

If you're going to insist 'fuck all to do with Brexit' when every shred of evidence points in the opposite direction, what is there left to say? The head honchos at both Dover and Folkstone are now on record as having said, 'Yeah this shit takes longer now, so more delays'. You are effectively saying that you know more about this than the people whose literal jobs is to look after this stuff at Dover and Folkstone.

And what would be so bad about just accepting that Brexit has consequences, and that some of them will be negative? If the goal of Brexit was to change things, then doesn't it follow that not all of those changes will be positive?

You simply cannot leave the EU, Single Market and Customs Union and then expect passage across borders to be exactly the same as it was before, because it objectively and clearly isn't.

My comment was not intended to come across as belittling, it was supposed to be tongue in cheek whilst also making a serious point about the 'British Exceptionalism' that can IMO, explain an awful lot of the entire Brexit phenomenon. i.e. 'We want to take back control of our borders! But not you, you shouldn't do that as well'.

Regardless, I apologise for making the comment.