Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

To be fair she only has herself to blame.
She has tried to play 'both sides' to appease as many people as possible.

She spent a long time trying to make the HP books more 'woke', when people didnt buy it she simply switched teams.
The below video makes a good job explaining what she was doing until she figured out people didnt like it.
Also its pretty funny, 'Professor Snape was a single mother'

That is true she did start ascribing new characteristics, she is a lady of the left [iirc used to work for amnesty before the writing took off], but the political scene and goalposts have changed a lot since 2001, so she probably felt the need to update and prove her credentials.

But has decided to draw a line in the sand regarding traditional feminism and trans men's rights and the new female definitions.

She's failed some kind of purity spiral test for the actors involved in those films, there's almost a puzzled blank 'who?' response when jk rowling gets mentioned to them, absolute madness.

 

[Kroffe]

Same as Sharon Davies' speaking up to protect women's sport,

A bit off-topic, but i really think they should make a league where everything goes.
So many top level athletes are already cheating using steroids and whatnot, but they obviously have to be a bit sneaky about it.

Sure, people following the rules can swim pretty fast, but can they swim as fast as a dolphin?




Im telling you, its the next big thing.
Dope-olympics.

 

[dunover]

Scary thought - the SNP hate private enterprise, as do their partners in crime, the Greens.

With little desire, nor ideas, on how to grow an economy you'd be left with the only thing they know: increased taxation and regulation

Might see a SNP-LAB-Green power pact, or: a Trinity of Terror

I notice the deafening silence from the Communist 'Green' Party regarding the fuel and energy cost crisis. The UK govt. have frozen fuel duty for nigh on 13 years, and VAT on energy. Much to the consternation of the Greens who believe that duty rises would 'ration' the commodity and make people use it more economically. (BS, the richer would use the same and the poorer would be hit.)

Assuming no recent price crisis and all things being equal to say a 'normal' period 4 years ago when it was just over £1.05 a litre, I think, the price per litre would have been £1.45-50 had fuel duty gone up solely with inflation for the last 13 years, disregarding any real-terms duty increases, which the Greens actually advocated.

Now we can see the catastrophic effects of expensive fuel and energy via the punitive prices affecting transport, deliveries, agriculture, food as well as home heating. So you've now got a real example of what would've happened if the Green lunatics had control and we had had inflation-plus fuel duty rises for the last 13 years. It wouldn't just be the last 12-18 months people would have been suffering, but long before that. The fact this all hurts the working class, benefits brigade and poorer workers hardest (those most likely to be attracted to the Green's socialist leanings) explains their silence as it's given away what they are all about and it's their potential support base that's been thoroughly stuffed. QED

 

[dunover]

I'm no big fan of O'Leary, but he's calling out leaving the Single Market for what it is, a disaster for UK Plc.

Companies like Ryanair prosper because people want things for cheap, they want cheap flights, Ryanair delivers that, and in doing so, yes, they employ quite a lot of unscrupulous practices. Corporations are evil, and they do evil shit, which is why we need strong government to reign in their excesses. The UK government showed no inclination to do that whilst we were in the EU, and it shows equally little inclination to do it now we're outside the EU. (Quite the opposite in fact, as it starts to tear up some of the protections that were afforded to UK citizens under EU law.)

As for 'all lives matter'.

View attachment 169493

Either you are incapable of making your own arguments intellectually (which I don't believe myself at all!) hence the constant need to paste in the opinions of others constantly, OR you feel you are somehow talking down to the rest of us here so consider you need pictures to explain things as we are still at the Ladybird Books learning stage.

That aside, there is glaring omission to your patronizing pictorial analogy which changes the whole context and meaning: the fact the occupants of the house on fire set it ablaze themselves.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I notice the deafening silence from the Communist 'Green' Party regarding the fuel and energy cost crisis. The UK govt. have frozen fuel duty for nigh on 13 years, and VAT on energy. Much to the consternation of the Greens who believe that duty rises would 'ration' the commodity and make people use it more economically. (BS, the richer would use the same and the poorer would be hit.)

Assuming no recent price crisis and all things being equal to say a 'normal' period 4 years ago when it was just over £1.05 a litre, I think, the price per litre would have been £1.45-50 had fuel duty gone up solely with inflation for the last 13 years, disregarding any real-terms duty increases, which the Greens actually advocated.

Now we can see the catastrophic effects of expensive fuel and energy via the punitive prices affecting transport, deliveries, agriculture, food as well as home heating. So you've now got a real example of what would've happened if the Green lunatics had control and we had had inflation-plus fuel duty rises for the last 13 years. It wouldn't just be the last 12-18 months people would have been suffering, but long before that. The fact this all hurts the working class, benefits brigade and poorer workers hardest (those most likely to be attracted to the Green's socialist leanings) explains their silence as it's given away what they are all about and it's their potential support base that's been thoroughly stuffed. QED

That sounds like an awesome Brexit Dividend dunover, the Greens haven't had any influence on government policy ever, and now we get to erect strawmen to kick the shit out of to demonstrate how it would definitely be worse if we hadn't had a Tory government for the last twelve years.

Is this really the measure of 'success' now? Literally 'Look over there, it would have been worse under them, honest!' Last time I filled my car up it cost me over £100, so when I'm next watching the display on the pump crest £100, I'll definitely be thinking how lucky I am that the Greens didn't, erm, do anything ever to affect the situation we find ourselves in.

The Greens generally get about what, around 3-4% of the popular vote?

Next up on the Dunover Show, why the Tories are great and Brexit is brilliant when viewed through the prism of what if the Monster Raving Loony Party were in power.

 

[dunover]

That sounds like an awesome Brexit Dividend dunover, the Greens haven't had any influence on government policy ever, and now we get to erect strawmen to kick the shit out of to demonstrate how it would definitely be worse if we hadn't had a Tory government for the last twelve years.

Is this really the measure of 'success' now? Literally 'Look over there, it would have been worse under them, honest!' Last time I filled my car up it cost me over £100, so when I'm next watching the display on the pump crest £100, I'll definitely be thinking how lucky I am that the Greens didn't, erm, do anything ever to affect the situation we find ourselves in.

The Greens generally get about what, around 3-4% of the popular vote?

Next up on the Dunover Show, why the Tories are great and Brexit is brilliant when viewed through the prism of what if the Monster Raving Loony Party were in power.

Another of your illogical tangents - I am not referring to the party in general, have not mentioned Brexit here, nor the Tories but am simply exemplifying the situation we would be in if following the rantings of the Greens - if you look I quoted the @pinnit2014 post where there's a danger they could hold sway in Scotland so am agreeing with the chronic results likely of such an alliance from hell. And I speak facts here that you can check in my first post, rather than your ridicule-laden replies bereft of any foundation.

 

[paul7388]

That sounds like an awesome Brexit Dividend dunover, the Greens haven't had any influence on government policy ever, and now we get to erect strawmen to kick the shit out of to demonstrate how it would definitely be worse if we hadn't had a Tory government for the last twelve years.

Is this really the measure of 'success' now? Literally 'Look over there, it would have been worse under them, honest!' Last time I filled my car up it cost me over £100, so when I'm next watching the display on the pump crest £100, I'll definitely be thinking how lucky I am that the Greens didn't, erm, do anything ever to affect the situation we find ourselves in.

The Greens generally get about what, around 3-4% of the popular vote?

Next up on the Dunover Show, why the Tories are great and Brexit is brilliant when viewed through the prism of what if the Monster Raving Loony Party were in power.

As Dunover has pointed out the Greens have actually had quite a say in what happens. In Scotland anyway.

The little dictator has even had to go against things her party represent in order to keep the green party happy.

Several policies have been implemented or changed on the Green Parties say. As up here anyway she needs to keep them sweet and accomodate their wishes as all they have to do is vote against her and she has no majority to implement anything.

So be careful as same can happen very easily down in England if a party needs the Green seats to gain a parliament.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well I guess it's all cool since we have another planet to fall back on if we completely fuck this one up, stupid Greens.

 

[dunover]

Well I guess it's all cool since we have another planet to fall back on if we completely fuck this one up, stupid Greens.

Errrr...it's chronic overpopulation and overcrowding that's fucking the planet up, human expansion. Which the Greens will help on a local scale in the UK with an open-door policy.

 

[goatwack]

I'm not exactly convinced Carrie's Boris' 'green' agenda was anything other than another sound bite he deployed to gain favour among younger voters, with projections so far-reaching into 2050 and beyond, that it was a case of:

'Sounds great now, but it'll be forgotten in five years'

Not to mention the sheer hubris of essentially forcing people to adopt this brave new world. With no thought of sustaining these ideas, nor the topic of how recharging an electric car for example will use more resources and be more detrimental than not, how families can't afford to fund these new changes, how throwing away a carrier bag doesn't make them evil beings, how no one gives a flying monkey's about 'microplastics', amongst other things.

And yet we're told to conform to a radical green overhaul, as China & co continue to churn filth into the atmosphere at alarming levels. Not a peep from anyone, and yet, be sure to use paper straws on your drinks (incidentally, the very companies extolling these 'green' virtues, eg McDonald's, have the kind of plastic on their drinks that wouldn't break down in millions of years, but yes, go paper straws!)

It's all a circus, the Green Parties are and always will be a joke, with their only moment in the spotlight being now, to attain something resembling relevance. Only thing they'll ever be good for is middle- aged cat women floater voters or for other parties to hoover up to a position of strength.

ps let's all keep some context here. Despite what these flavour-of-the-month chancer politicians try and tell you, you're not the cause of the planet's problems, as I very much doubt most people's carbon footprints to be anything other than negligible. Be a responsible adult, have an awareness (apparently people before 2016 never knew about changing climates or nuffing), take your flipping plastic to be recycled if you wish, and try not to be overly wasteful in your energy consumption.

Everything else is just inane messaging by politicians thinking they can label you a bad person so as to further their political aspirations. I sincerely doubt Boris will pursue a green-laden existence past his tenure as he climbs into his private jet

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Errrr...it's chronic overpopulation and overcrowding that's fucking the planet up, human expansion. Which the Greens will help on a local scale in the UK with an open-door policy.

This is what I don’t get.

It’s all well and good preaching from a moral high ground that we need to keep letting all and sundry through our borders, but we’re an island. We have finite space, finite resources. I’m fed up of our green spaces being built on, I’m fed up of local infrastructure crumbling because it can’t carry the population.

It’s nothing to do with underfunding, our population just can’t keep continuing to expand. We’ve overshot carrying capacity.

 

[mack341]

England and Wales' population in 1911 was 36 million, that was with large families and lots of manufacturing industry jobs, growth of the cities etc..

Fast forward today and it is 59.5 million with a fraction of the industry; in 2011 it was 56 m, so an annual population increase of 350,000, that's a lot of extra housing needed, which with the uk's north european climate will require a lot of energy and fuel to warm during winter months.

At what point will enough be enough, even pro-immigration, good for the economy advocates, 75-80+ million?? They will never say, to them it seems, to be on the safe side, infinite expansion is best, anything less is waycist!

 

[goatwack]

I don't think there's an objective figure that gets placed on it, it's simply 'as many as need be'. What you'll find then is that there's less to go around, and those settled here will be affected too.

It will take a forthright minister to announce that essentially "We cannot take any more arrivals", and coupled with this country's politicians being frightened out of their wits to be labelled racist, it's been far easier to turn a blind eye and pass the issue on to the next lot.

Give it time and you'll hear those families that have set up their lives here over recent years, stating that Britain cannot hope to sustain such population surges and expect everything to be running A-ok. And Priti Patel's incompetence is so apparent that even Boris is thinking of shuffling her out of her post. Can you imagine?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm old enough to remember when people said that Brexit wasn't all about THE IMMIGRANTS....

I covered this the other day, the UK's native population is ageing and the birthrate is cratering, we're not having enough babies, an ageing nation is a declining nation. There's all sorts of stuff the UK government could do to encourage the native population to have more babies, but it won't do that (and indeed often pursues policies that are actively hostile towards people who might want to start families), so we need immigration - which is why the drop in EU migration post-Brexit has been quietly replaced with migration from non-EU countries.

It's convenient to blame public services stretched beyond breaking point on immigrants, personally I'd be inclined to point at twelve years of Tory austerity as being more of a critical factor.

Just because you think the UK is 'full', doesn't mean it is. The South East is reasonably densely populated (although far less so than many other places in the world), but once you get beyond that region, there's plenty of space, and the UK overall isn't that densely populated, even compared to other countries in Europe. (For example Belgium and the Netherlands.)

If we had a sane housing policy that wasn't so obsessed with preserving green space (which we have loads of), along with building decent housing in appropriate locations, and putting in place the transport links to service it, the bits of the UK that do feel overcrowded would be far less so.

But yeah, immigration, that's the problem.

 

[pinnit2014]

Hold on Choppers: one post you like the Green's commitment to the planet, the next, you want to build on Greenbelt?

Incidentally, up here, there are more and more Local Authority decisions (for example, refusing permission to build on Greenbelt) that are being overruled by the Scot Govt (in the name of wider economic/housing interests): there was potential for housing developments around Loch Lomond, and some sort of 'park' that thankfully didn't go ahead.

Ideally you'd want to build in the Brownsites but as we know, developers don't want that - land contamination, increased surveys needed = most costs.

 

[dunover]

I'm old enough to remember when people said that Brexit wasn't all about THE IMMIGRANTS....

I covered this the other day, the UK's native population is ageing and the birthrate is cratering, we're not having enough babies, an ageing nation is a declining nation. There's all sorts of stuff the UK government could do to encourage the native population to have more babies, but it won't do that (and indeed often pursues policies that are actively hostile towards people who might want to start families), so we need immigration - which is why the drop in EU migration post-Brexit has been quietly replaced with migration from non-EU countries.

It's convenient to blame public services stretched beyond breaking point on immigrants, personally I'd be inclined to point at twelve years of Tory austerity as being more of a critical factor.

Just because you think the UK is 'full', doesn't mean it is. The South East is reasonably densely populated (although far less so than many other places in the world), but once you get beyond that region, there's plenty of space, and the UK overall isn't that densely populated, even compared to other countries in Europe. (For example Belgium and the Netherlands.)

If we had a sane housing policy that wasn't so obsessed with preserving green space (which we have loads of), along with building decent housing in appropriate locations, and putting in place the transport links to service it, the bits of the UK that do feel overcrowded would be far less so.

But yeah, immigration, that's the problem.

Er...the most densely populated country in Europe is NOT densely populated? WTF?? We overtook Holland a few years ago for top spot!

So, we let millions of migrants in, and within a few decades THEY get old. So what's the answer then? Millions more to 'care' for them when they get old? So an upward spiral to hell, a self-perpetuating illogical overpopulation of our lands? Insane, just insane.

As for 'green' land, as we only produce 60% of our food consumption, what happens when it's built over? I see, we rely on imports, then are wholly exposed to the vagaries of international trade in grain and oils etc. And we can see how well that's going right now, a war on the fringes of Europe has demostrated how vulnerable the whole system is.

And you should be more exact - the INDIGENOUS birthrate is falling, but migrant families are having over twice the amount of children. Which as I said earlier, can only lead to societal breakdown eventually, conflict. Check your history books.

Do we not have unemployed people here, to fill vacancies? Yes, but due to the system allowing employers to cherry-pick off the shelf migrants and not train the existing population, the failures are evident.

And the selfish assertion that we have 'enough green space' assumes non of us value this, none of us consider it to be essential to our mental health and quality of life and we should all be happy seeing it concreted, forever?

I see your vision for the UK is something like that of Hong Kong, one Victoria Park and the rest of it high-rise blocks, flypapers stuck with human lives and for those who cannot get one, a small cage to live in. Welcome to Chopley's new UK utopia! But hey, we'll be able to fill vacancies easier.

Coming to a village near you:

Deluxe apartment on the IoM:

Hey Chopley, if you wonder why some of us vote for the buffoons and idiots to keep people like C*rbyn out....

 

[justdoit]

Er...the most densely populated country in Europe is NOT densely populated? WTF?? We overtook Holland a few years ago for top spot!

So, we let millions of migrants in, and within a few decades THEY get old. So what's the answer then? Millions more to 'care' for them when they get old? So an upward spiral to hell, a self-perpetuating illogical overpopulation of our lands? Insane, just insane.

As for 'green' land, as we only produce 60% of our food consumption, what happens when it's built over? I see, we rely on imports, then are wholly exposed to the vagaries of international trade in grain and oils etc. And we can see how well that's going right now, a war on the fringes of Europe has demostrated how vulnerable the whole system is.

And you should be more exact - the INDIGENOUS birthrate is falling, but migrant families are having over twice the amount of children. Which as I said earlier, can only lead to societal breakdown eventually, conflict. Check your history books.

Do we not have unemployed people here, to fill vacancies? Yes, but due to the system allowing employers to cherry-pick off the shelf migrants and not train the existing population, the failures are evident.

And the selfish assertion that we have 'enough green space' assumes non of us value this, none of us consider it to be essential to our mental health and quality of life and we should all be happy seeing it concreted, forever?

I see your vision for the UK is something like that of Hong Kong, one Victoria Park and the rest of it high-rise blocks, flypapers stuck with human lives and for those who cannot get one, a small cage to live in. Welcome to Chopley's new UK utopia! But hey, we'll be able to fill vacancies easier.

Coming to a village near you:


View attachment 169523

Deluxe apartment on the IoM:

View attachment 169524

Hey Chopley, if you wonder why some of us vote for the buffoons and idiots to keep people like C*rbyn out....

migrants pay tax just like another british, I pay over 500k a year, maybe I should avoid tax just like most British companies they doing, it takes 30 mins to move all tax payment to channel island, and pay 2% and avoid 25% British tax
last xmas UK got stuck without migrants work force, most of British dont want to work they prefer to go in jobcentre and get GOV benefits

 

[goatwack]

An island of work-shy bums. Difficult to argue against that one!

 

[Mr_Slot5]

migrants pay tax just like another british, I pay over 500k a year, maybe I should avoid tax just like most British companies they doing, it takes 30 mins to move all tax payment to channel island, and pay 2% and avoid 25% British tax
last xmas UK got stuck without migrants work force, most of British dont want to work they prefer to go in jobcentre and get GOV benefits

500k tax a year?

Business owner?

 

[pinnit2014]

I'd like to thank the Polish and Romanian workers for A. Turning up B. Working in my house and C. Making sure it's not a construction site

To the British who came (or said they would) I'd like to ask: is 14 months waiting for a quote normal?

I'd have done the work myself but being from these shores it all seemed, you know, too much effort

 

[Mr_Slot5]

I'd like to thank the Polish and Romanian workers for A. Turning up B. Working in my house and C. Making sure it's not a construction site

To the British who came (or said they would) I'd like to ask: is 14 months waiting for a quote normal?

I'd have done the work myself but being from these shores it all seemed, you know, too much effort

The issue isn’t surrounding the productivity of Romanians, Polish, the British etc…the issue is one of population and carrying capacity of our island. It’s as simple as that. Nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with the sheer number of people and the demands placed on our infrastructure.

 

[goatwack]

Once had a mate of a mate wallpaper our living room. At around the 1/8 mark we casually terminated his services, as it had more bubbles in it than an Aero bar

 

[pinnit2014]

Sorry about that: had to rush home to catch Home and Away.

 

[goatwack]

This is what some people seem to not understand. To say an overpopulated island is getting overpopulated isn't racist. It makes me laugh, because especially in London, all my life it's been the most accepting place probably on God's green earth.

So it's nothing to do with Romanians, Bulgarians, Polish, Muslim etc. It's about the SPACE this country has to realistically sustain anything resembling a quality of life. You know, the very thing people wish to attain when laying down roots here.

Cue cries of how dare anyone suggest they know best. Let's have 200 million people here, I mean why not. We could all live in pods and be on Universal Basic Income, whilst reminiscing about the good ol' days of when we still exported Marmite and Yorkshire Tea to the world

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Er...the most densely populated country in Europe is NOT densely populated? WTF?? We overtook Holland a few years ago for top spot!

So, we let millions of migrants in, and within a few decades THEY get old. So what's the answer then? Millions more to 'care' for them when they get old? So an upward spiral to hell, a self-perpetuating illogical overpopulation of our lands? Insane, just insane.

As for 'green' land, as we only produce 60% of our food consumption, what happens when it's built over? I see, we rely on imports, then are wholly exposed to the vagaries of international trade in grain and oils etc. And we can see how well that's going right now, a war on the fringes of Europe has demostrated how vulnerable the whole system is.

And you should be more exact - the INDIGENOUS birthrate is falling, but migrant families are having over twice the amount of children. Which as I said earlier, can only lead to societal breakdown eventually, conflict. Check your history books.

Do we not have unemployed people here, to fill vacancies? Yes, but due to the system allowing employers to cherry-pick off the shelf migrants and not train the existing population, the failures are evident.

And the selfish assertion that we have 'enough green space' assumes non of us value this, none of us consider it to be essential to our mental health and quality of life and we should all be happy seeing it concreted, forever?

I see your vision for the UK is something like that of Hong Kong, one Victoria Park and the rest of it high-rise blocks, flypapers stuck with human lives and for those who cannot get one, a small cage to live in. Welcome to Chopley's new UK utopia! But hey, we'll be able to fill vacancies easier.

Coming to a village near you:


View attachment 169523

Deluxe apartment on the IoM:

View attachment 169524

Hey Chopley, if you wonder why some of us vote for the buffoons and idiots to keep people like C*rbyn out....

Population densities, here's the data, check for yourself, we're not even top of the pops in Europe let alone the rest of the world. (And not much different to, for example, Germany.)

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And as I said in my earlier post, the issue the UK has with population density is how the population is distributed, if you evened out the population across the UK (which is of course a long term project, but is entirely achievable if the desire is there), the places that are more crowded (which aren't even that crowded now) would become less so.

Maybe the government could actually do some of its much vaunted 'levelling up' and get to work on the North-South divide.

As for the green land, we have an awful lot of land in this country that isn't being used for anything, whether or not it could or should be used for farming is neither here nor there in context of the fact it isn't being used for farming now. And these are not the fields you're walking in for the good of your mental health, but vast tracts of land well off the beaten path.

Citing Hong Kong is alarmist nonsense, and you know it, Hong Kong is the fourth most densely populated country in the world, the UK is 49th.

Again, check the data -

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If you're so unhappy about 'the system' picking 'off the shelf migrants' (both your phrases) for jobs instead of salt of the earth UK folks who'd do the jobs if only THE SYSTEM would let them, you should probably have a word with the UK government, last time I checked it was the Tories who'd been in power for twelve years, the same government that's been handing out visas like they're going out of fashion to.... checks notes..... a load of immigrants from non-EU countries, to replace all the folks who won't come here from the EU.

As for growing more of our own food, it'd be handy if we didn't have fields full of perfectly good food rotting in the ground up and down the country, because there aren't enough EU workers to do it, and it turns out HARD WORKING PATRIOTIC BRITS can't be fucking arsed to do it, even when the pay is good.

 

[paul7388]

As for the green land, we have an awful lot of land in this country that isn't being used for anything, whether or not it could or should be used for farming is neither here nor there in context of the fact it isn't being used for farming now. And these are not the fields you're walking in for the good of your mental health, but vast tracts of land well off the beaten path.

So if there is a lot of land not used for farming miles from anywhere we should use that and build more houses.

Great idea. Since we have not destroyed the world enough let's use every bit of land spare. Kill the wildlife and ruin any natural beauty spots we have left.

Unless i am wrong which i am sure you will find some article showing i am. This has not been working too well for this planet. Forests destroyed, animals endangered, viruses now spreading more easily due to increased contact with humans and wildlife.

Yeah let's destroy every bit of land. Fill the earth with more people. Have no animals left or places to grow food to feed all these people. Oh suppose we could all eat fish. Forgot we have already decimated supplies of those and the rest we have filled with plastic.

 

[goatwack]

So if there is a lot of land not used for farming miles from anywhere we should use that and build more houses.

Great idea. Since we have not destroyed the world enough let's use every bit of land spare. Kill the wildlife and ruin any natural beauty spots we have left.

Unless i am wrong which i am sure you will find some article showing i am. This has not been working too well for this planet. Forests destroyed, animals endangered, viruses now spreading more easily due to increased contact with humans and wildlife.

Yeah let's destroy every bit of land. Fill the earth with more people. Have no animals left or places to grow food to feed all these people. Oh suppose we could all eat fish. Forgot we have already decimated supplies of those and the rest we have filled with plastic.

You won't need land to feed livestock, as we'll be happily chowing down on cricket burgers. Hmm!

 

[pinnit2014]

So if there is a lot of land not used for farming miles from anywhere we should use that and build more houses.

Great idea. Since we have not destroyed the world enough let's use every bit of land spare. Kill the wildlife and ruin any natural beauty spots we have left.

Unless i am wrong which i am sure you will find some article showing i am. This has not been working too well for this planet. Forests destroyed, animals endangered, viruses now spreading more easily due to increased contact with humans and wildlife.

Yeah let's destroy every bit of land. Fill the earth with more people. Have no animals left or places to grow food to feed all these people. Oh suppose we could all eat fish. Forgot we have already decimated supplies of those and the rest we have filled with plastic.

Therein lies the inherent conflict between a Housing Policy and a Green one - they don't go. Not just the houses but the infrastructure around it as well.

Greta will love Choppers: hey, it's sitting there doing nothing, get something built on it.

 

[dunover]

Population densities, here's the data, check for yourself, we're not even top of the pops in Europe let alone the rest of the world. (And not much different to, for example, Germany.)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

View attachment 169550

And as I said in my earlier post, the issue the UK has with population density is how the population is distributed, if you evened out the population across the UK (which is of course a long term project, but is entirely achievable if the desire is there), the places that are more crowded (which aren't even that crowded now) would become less so.

Maybe the government could actually do some of its much vaunted 'levelling up' and get to work on the North-South divide.

As for the green land, we have an awful lot of land in this country that isn't being used for anything, whether or not it could or should be used for farming is neither here nor there in context of the fact it isn't being used for farming now. And these are not the fields you're walking in for the good of your mental health, but vast tracts of land well off the beaten path.

Citing Hong Kong is alarmist nonsense, and you know it, Hong Kong is the fourth most densely populated country in the world, the UK is 49th.

Again, check the data -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

If you're so unhappy about 'the system' picking 'off the shelf migrants' (both your phrases) for jobs instead of salt of the earth UK folks who'd do the jobs if only THE SYSTEM would let them, you should probably have a word with the UK government, last time I checked it was the Tories who'd been in power for twelve years, the same government that's been handing out visas like they're going out of fashion to.... checks notes..... a load of immigrants from non-EU countries, to replace all the folks who won't come here from the EU.

As for growing more of our own food, it'd be handy if we didn't have fields full of perfectly good food rotting in the ground up and down the country, because there aren't enough EU workers to do it, and it turns out HARD WORKING PATRIOTIC BRITS can't be fucking arsed to do it, even when the pay is good.

ENGLAND, where they mostly end up?? Check those figures. And we are talking industrialized nation states, not little islands/tax havens in the sun with apartments stacked on the beachfront. As you well know. It's ridiculous to compare Gibraltar and Monaco, hardly like-for-like. I supposed Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel where one birdwatcher periodically resides would count as a 'low density' place in your list?

As for the 'benefits' of unmetered migration, given that we have had a staggering rise in the UK population of 6% in a decade why aren't we 6% wealthier as a whole, given the economic benefits you argue it brings? Why is GDP (pre-covid and Ukraine) per head falling?

It's amazing that many of these advocates of migration insanity are residing in places where it has little effect.

Oh yeah! Check this out - what's good for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander.

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Let's just say, where you reside you are insulated from the burden and problems yourself. You won't be paying for it like us, nor having your fields built on as you are protected by some more sensible rules, funnily enough the very rules we should have in the UK that you seem so opposed to. Nothing like a NIMBY is there?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

ENGLAND, where they mostly end up?? Check those figures. And we are talking industrialized nation states, not little islands/tax havens in the sun with apartments stacked on the beachfront. As you well know. It's ridiculous to compare Gibraltar and Monaco, hardly like-for-like. I supposed Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel where one birdwatcher periodically resides would count as a 'low density' place in your list?

As for the 'benefits' of unmetered migration, given that we have had a staggering rise in the UK population of 6% in a decade why aren't we 6% wealthier as a whole, given the economic benefits you argue it brings? Why is GDP (pre-covid and Ukraine) per head falling?

It's amazing that many of these advocates of migration insanity are residing in places where it has little effect.

Oh yeah! Check this out - what's good for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander.

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Let's just say, where you reside you are insulated from the burden and problems yourself. You won't be paying for it like us, nor having your fields built on as you are protected by some more sensible rules, funnily enough the very rules we should have in the UK that you seem so opposed to. Nothing like a NIMBY is there?

I was specifically referencing Belgium and the Netherlands, both of which have a higher population density than the UK, all the piddly little places are just on the chart too (and can obviously be ignored as outliers).

As for the IOM and migration, we have substantial communities on the IOM of Filipino people, our health service would collapse overnight if they all upped sticks and left. One of my colleagues (I'm in IT) and good friend is a Filipino guy (I've been working with him for years, he's hands-down one of the best techies I've ever known), his wife works at the hospital as a nurse (she's done a lot of work on the Covid ward), both their children were born here.

We also have fairly large numbers of Polish and Romanian people here, Mrs Chopley's dentist is a Polish chap, whereas my dentist is an Indian lady. I remember when Mrs Chopley gave birth to our daughter back in 2004, every doctor and specialist in the room (it was a long and difficult birth) was from a different country, including a Trinidadian chap who shouted words of encouragement in a massive booming voice.

When I got a hernia a few years back, the chap who operated on me to fix it was Egyptian, and when I got the snip to save the world from any more Chopley Jnrs, both the surgeon and the anaesthetist were from different countries.

I walked past a building site the other day and all the guys doing the scaffolding were talking to each other in an Eastern European language (for shame, I couldn't tell specifically what it was).

So yes, we have plenty of people from all around the world who have made the IOM their home, and our island is a better place for them, it's no more 'my' island than it is 'their' island, we all live here together, and they contribute massively to both our society and our economy, and indeed several sectors would really struggle without them. (If you go to a restaurant there's a decent chance some of the waiting on staff will be from somewhere in the EU.)

And as their children are born here, their children are Manx, because they were born on the Isle of Man, same as my daughter is Manx, because she was born here - they are all part of the fabric and culture of the Isle of Man, and that culture will change over time, and that's fine, because I'm not all dewy-eyed and nostalgic for some imagined time of greatness that the UK is supposed to have enjoyed and has now been lost. (I mean, what are we supposed to be really proud of, colonisation? The days of empire when we brutally subjugated and terrorised any country unfortunate enough to be 'civilised' by us?)

So yes, there's a substantial amount of migration taking place to the Isle of Man, from all over the world, there has been for years, and it doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Kroffe]

I dont know how it works in the UK, but immigration here in Sweden is not exactly a massive increase of highly skilled workers coming in.
Not saying that there are not doctors coming in aswell, but for every 1 doctor that comes in and functions as a 'normal' member of society you have alot of people that come here that refuse to learn the language, have no will to educate themselves or work etc.

In the end i think most of it is 'our' fault (politicians more like it), we took in too many and were too lax with making sure people integrated before taking in even more.
So now we have mini-communities within our normal communities where people dont speak the language because they have no need to since everyone around them speaks their own language already.

Solution seems simple enough, or atleast it would have been easy, sprinkle immigrants throughout the country instead of putting all of them in one place. But i guess it would have been racist to force immigrants to live in Northern Sweden.
Would have been easy to do back then, now not so much.

Im not against immigration, but if you dont intend to integrate yourself with Swedish society which means learning the language, loving IKEA, eating meatballs, and respecting the laws/values we have here, then dont fucking come here.

 

[bamberfishcake]

f you're so unhappy about 'the system' picking 'off the shelf migrants' (both your phrases) for jobs instead of salt of the earth UK folks who'd do the jobs if only THE SYSTEM would let them, you should probably have a word with the UK government, last time I checked it was the Tories who'd been in power for twelve years, the same government that's been handing out visas like they're going out of fashion to.... checks notes..... a load of immigrants from non-EU countries, to replace all the folks who won't come here from the EU.

As for growing more of our own food, it'd be handy if we didn't have fields full of perfectly good food rotting in the ground up and down the country, because there aren't enough EU workers to do it, and it turns out HARD WORKING PATRIOTIC BRITS can't be fucking arsed to do it, even when the pay is good.

I agree there is plenty of spare land to build on, and space is not an issue unless you're an immigrant sharing a 1 bedroom flat with six or seven others.

Your above post though is worlds apart from my perception of the south of England. Its nothing to do with Tories or Labour, and the sooner you stop pretending that either side really matters you will remain closed-minded on your opinion - just my opinion

There are plenty of Brits ready to fill the jobs but the farms would rather pay immigrants cash. If somebody is not prepared to work we have organisations like job centres and the Universal Credit program, whose job it is to find placements.

There is no real inherent issue with many of the systems and procedures to make things work but the crux of the issue is - none are adhered to, executed the right way, or policed professionally and efficiently as a so-called government should do.

This issue, my friend, is not the Tories, Labour or any other mirage of ideology, but the greedy buggers above them, playing god and raking it in.

 

[goatwack]

I don't particularly believe that an idyllic outpost housing 84,000 people is generally a good indicator for a country whose citizens number 60 million, but there you go.

And it's no secret that one will find Eastern European workers in the building trade, nor the recruitment drive of Commonwealth workers into the Health sector, brought about by.....'colonization', I take it. All the while ignoring the matter of also furthering their careers and life opportunities, no doubt, because it works both ways. Nor do I believe that dissolving a country's heritage and culture into the ether is the done thing, it's rather disingenuous given all that Britain's given to the world, whether it be through the Arts, invention or industry.

Look further afield to the Middle East or pretty much all of Asia and you'll see how quickly they forego their culture to suit the needs of other nationalities. But I guess if into Globalization, then Britain's fair game. The very nation that has bent over backwards to accommodate people of all creeds for generations. But yes, we'll stick with calling them the Galactic Empire, that's the 'in-thing' to do right?

So what's new? London's chokka with various ethnicities and nationalities, and no one bats an eyelid, as it's a non-issue and always has been.

Still doesn't negate the fact that at *some* point in the future, even this multi-cultural society will feel the pinch themselves, as services break down, kids can't find school placements and job prospects become ever more tenuous. And I guess that's round about the time you'll hear the friendly Trinidadian nurse and Polish dentist echo the same sentiment, that Britain has finite resources to go around, before we all start stepping on each other's toes!

 

[pinnit2014]

I dont know how it works in the UK, but immigration here in Sweden is not exactly a massive increase of highly skilled workers coming in.
Not saying that there are not doctors coming in aswell, but for every 1 doctor that comes in and functions as a 'normal' member of society you have alot of people that come here that refuse to learn the language, have no will to educate themselves or work etc.

In the end i think most of it is 'our' fault (politicians more like it), we took in too many and were too lax with making sure people integrated before taking in even more.
So now we have mini-communities within our normal communities where people dont speak the language because they have no need to since everyone around them speaks their own language already.

Solution seems simple enough, or atleast it would have been easy, sprinkle immigrants throughout the country instead of putting all of them in one place. But i guess it would have been racist to force immigrants to live in Northern Sweden.
Would have been easy to do back then, now not so much.

Im not against immigration, but if you dont intend to integrate yourself with Swedish society which means learning the language, loving IKEA, eating meatballs, and respecting the laws/values we have here, then dont fucking come here.


View attachment 169561

Where do you stand on Bonanza lovers?

Tougher immigration laws or just an outright: get away, you've obviously mental with no sense of economics?

 

[paul7388]

So yes, there's a substantial amount of migration taking place to the Isle of Man, from all over the world, there has been for years, and it doesn't bother me at all.

But you spoke about Doctors, nurses , construction workers etc.

Fair enough . But how many areas of IOM are full of immigrants that have never worked a day in their lives.

How many immigrants are there on the IOM that came to the Island. Never spoke a word of English and never will. Who contribute nothing. Who go straight into newly built houses where benefits pay their rent and the people born and bred in the area can not get houses to rent or are put on long waiting lists for houses they probably cant afford to run even tho they work.

It is all right talking about Immigrants that come to your Island. Work, pay their way and contribute to society.

Unfortunately in the real world the vast amount come, Get everything handed to them on a plate, contribute nothing and do not even try to learn English and integrate. And i will not even go into things like many still look at woman as if they are nothing and treat them similair.

Then we are now expected to change our way of living to suit them and not cause them offence.

 

[Kroffe]

Where do you stand on Bonanza lovers?

Tougher immigration laws or just an outright: get away, you've obviously mental with no sense of economics?

I dont see how a Bonanza lover could ever become a fully functioning member of the society.
That does not mean i wouldnt be prepared to accept 1 or maybe 2 into Sweden to atleast try, we could put them on Gotland so there is no risk of the Bonanza-fever spreading to a large part of the population.

 

[pinnit2014]

I dont see how a Bonanza lover could ever become a fully functioning member of the society.
That does not mean i wouldnt be prepared to accept 1 or maybe 2 into Sweden to atleast try, we could put them on Gotland so there is no risk of the Bonanza-fever spreading to a large part of the population.

Goldland?

See you there!

 

[justdoit]

500k tax a year?

Business owner?

yep import export since 2002, when I started I need to pay my self from my saving till I build profit

 

[justdoit]

ENGLAND, where they mostly end up?? Check those figures. And we are talking industrialized nation states, not little islands/tax havens in the sun with apartments stacked on the beachfront. As you well know. It's ridiculous to compare Gibraltar and Monaco, hardly like-for-like. I supposed Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel where one birdwatcher periodically resides would count as a 'low density' place in your list?

As for the 'benefits' of unmetered migration, given that we have had a staggering rise in the UK population of 6% in a decade why aren't we 6% wealthier as a whole, given the economic benefits you argue it brings? Why is GDP (pre-covid and Ukraine) per head falling?

It's amazing that many of these advocates of migration insanity are residing in places where it has little effect.

Oh yeah! Check this out - what's good for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Let's just say, where you reside you are insulated from the burden and problems yourself. You won't be paying for it like us, nor having your fields built on as you are protected by some more sensible rules, funnily enough the very rules we should have in the UK that you seem so opposed to. Nothing like a NIMBY is there?

no need for Gibraltar and Monaco?( Jersey,island of man) look now what is happen no migrant all airline companies are struggling no staff, coz British refuse to work for £25k £35k a year

this is only BA they are 100s of other companies they have same problem...
UK without London will be dead long time ago, and London without migrant will not work 24/7
Did British when to India nicking Indian country on behalf of the Queen of England? and Call every Indian to get British Passport, Same with Hong Kong etc,
Maybe you should watch this English dud he show real UK

 

[justdoit]

London is dirty money capital, everyone know City of London is country on their own law inside UK build for money laundering, made by British

​

 

[goatwack]

Leading the way! Yee-harrr!

Setting benchmarks in alternative banking!

 

[Webzcas]

Can someone tell me as to why the migrants risking their lives undertaking the channel crossing from France to England, which by all accounts puts them in debt to the tune of several thousand sheets to people smugglers, do not seek refuge and asylum in France? Or indeed other EU countries they travel through before getting to the French coast?

Unless they have a wormhole allowing them to transport direct to the coast from their place of origin, but even then, they are in a 'first world' country, which more to the point is in the EU!!!! Which according to many, membership of is so much better being part of.

So what is the lure of the UK that makes hundreds of people each and every day risk their lives and putting themselves into modern day slavery scenarios with the people smugglers?

Asking genuinely.

I am all for the UK accepting and taking in genuine refugees and know of several people who have offered places for Ukrainians. But seriously, we have to have some form of controls of our borders.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

One of the main reasons cited is family connections, also quite a lot of them speak English, but no French, or German, or whatever.

In many cases these people have been through a hell of a lot to get as far as the French coast, so making one final push to get to the UK is seen as being worth the risk.

The BBC did a report on it earlier in the year -

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[ChopleyIOM]

I’ve always thought that the New Labour government was one of the worst things that happened to the UK. How many of the foundations for today’s issues were laid back then?!

OK then let's have a look at what New Labour achieved on their watch. I'd be interested to see the list for the Tories over the last twelve years.

HEALTH

Reduced NHS waiting times by 82%
85,000 more nurses
Free eye tests and bus travel for over 60s
Heart disease deaths down 150,000
Cancer deaths down 50,000
Free breast screening for 50-70 year-olds
In-patient waiting lists down half a million
Created NHS Direct

POVERTY

600,000 children lifted out of poverty
1 million pensioners lifted out of poverty
26% increase in child benefit
Introduced winter fuel payments
Made improvements to 1 million social homes
Introduced child Tax Credits
Created 3 million child trust funds

EMPLOYMENT

Introduced the first minimum wage
Created 1.8 million new jobs
Cut long term unemployment by 75%
Doubled the number of apprenticeships
Introduced the right to 24 days holiday
Introduced 2 weeks paternity leave

EDUCATION

Doubled education funding for every pupil
36,000 additional teachers
Added 274,000 teaching assistants
2,200 Sure Start centres
Record literacy
Record numeracy
Free nursery places
Free fruit for 4-6 year-olds

SOCIAL / CULTURAL

Scrapped Section 28
Introduced Civil Partnerships
Banned fox hunting
Free TV licenses to over 75s
Free entry to museums and art galleries
Smoking ban
Olympics and the sporting legacy since destroyed by Tories

SECURITY

Peace in Ireland (building on John Major's work, but still, completed by Labour)
Added 14,000 extra police
Cut crime by 35%
Increased criminal justice (court) spending by 21%

ECONOMY

Longest period of low inflation growth since 1960
Created an independent Bank of England
Wrote off debt for dozens of poor nations
Doubled overseas aid (a better life at home reduces the incentive to migrate to the UK)
Created GiftAid

MISCELLANEOUS STUFF

Introduced devolution for Scotland and Wales
Banned fur farming
Brought the Human Rights Act into UK law
And created the cleanest rivers, beaches, water and air since the industrial revolution

 

[goatwack]

Borrowing billions despite being handed a booming economy

Increasing debt on your average person, with home ownership a no-no

Tanking the economy

Being soft on crime

Encouraging illegal immigration

Dragging the country into an illegal war

Those were just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could add another 150 (minimum)

 

[goatwack]

So there it is, straight from the horse's mouth. Labour pledging to not seek an immediate return to the EU, preferring to make Brexit work, which is the sort of thing that instantly reassures any potential swing voters. The five points are:

- Not quite joining the EU

- Cosying up to the EU

- Being rather 'EU-ey'

- Hoping to become a member of the EU with incessant shoulder-rubbing with EU leaders

- Promising the EU that Bwexit was a doo-doo

That's assuming Keir survives the cull, once fined for 'Really not drinking beer that time, but ok I did' Beergate, and doesn't resign.

Then, when he's decided whether to support the Unions or admonish them (ie 'never') he'll decide whether to lead Labour into this reparative Promised Land, where the memory of Brexit can be washed away. If not him, then there's always someone else to lead the party, and likely not want to rejoin the EU either (fat chance).

But then there's still the Election to be won. So we can rule that one out as well.

Not to worry. Let's raise a glass to his vision at least. Cheers, Kezza!

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[ChopleyIOM]

It's a smart play by Starmer, Brexit is the only drum the morally-bereft Tory party has left to bang now, when they wheel out some incompetent low-grade minister to do the press, all they can really say that's positive about Johnson (in their heads at least) is that he 'GOT BREXIT DONE'. That's all they have left to cling to, even as the Brexit house comes crashing down under the weight of its own lies, they'll sit in the house as it crushes them to death, waving their Union Jacks whilst babbling incoherently about sovereignty,

If Starmer says Labour would seek a return to the Single Market and Customs Union (both of which require quite a lot of EU rule following), Johnson will pounce on it like a Tory MP pouncing on whoever they're sexually assaulting that day (pick a Tory MP sex-pest, there are loads of them to choose from!). *

That would then become the defining issue of the next election, 'Forget about all the parties, lies and depravity, they're going to take YOUR Brexit away! KEEP BREXIT DONE'.

Brexit is a incredible motivator for some... the only 'win' of their entire lives in a lot of cases. By taking the reversal of Brexit off the table, Starmer effectively neuters Johnson, depriving him of his core support.

Brexit will eat itself eventually (it's already gnawing its own legs off). The first and foremost thing at the moment is to get the Tories out, we need to be inside the tent pissing out, not the other way around, and that means getting into government.

The Tories will re-weaponize Brexit in a heartbeat if Starmer gives them anything whatsoever to hook the attack onto, Starmer hasn't given them that hook. No attempt to reverse any of the fundamentals of Brexit under a Labour government, it's a sensible message.

The demographics are against both Brexit and the Tories, the supporters of both are literally dying of old age, and they're not being replaced by younger people, time will fix this one, we just need to be patient.

*

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[mack341]

Starmer is probably being closely advised by Blair on how to handle things, he knows all about putting on a mask in order to win votes, playing the old left and disaffected tories.

 

[goatwack]

I still ponder over how Labour would have fared under John Smith, as he was quite prominent in that Major/ Ashdown era of politics before his untimely death? Would his shaping of Labour policies have led to that '97 landslide, or was that purely based on voters' Tory apathy?

Blair's infectious optimism was certainly evident during that era, I still remember it well!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I still ponder over how Labour would have fared under John Smith, as he was quite prominent in that Major/ Ashdown era of politics before his untimely death? Would his shaping of Labour policies have led to that '97 landslide, or was that purely based on voters' Tory apathy?

Blair's infectious optimism was certainly evident during that era, I still remember it well!

The Tories were done by the mid-90s, a deeply unpopular party, mired in sleaze, riven with internal strife, and pretty much unable to govern in anything like an effective manner (hey, sounds familiar!). And remember they'd also given us the economic disaster of 'Black Wednesday' in 1992.

Labour would have won under John Smith, and quite frankly I'd have preferred that, I'm not the world's biggest fan of Tony Blair. Although Gordon Brown I have a lot of respect for as a decent and principled politician, the worst mistake he ever made was to not go for a general election after he did a very good job of steering the UK (and leading the world) on a path through the global financial meltdown of 2008-2009.