Brexit - whats the difference.....

[goatwack]

Are we still on the 'Oven-ready' issue of Private Eye from which that excerpt was taken? Because if so, I'm still awaiting my delivery.

I guess the seller was using Economy Class postage, the sneaky git.

God I hate ebay

 

[mack341]

That's very true Chop re Private eye, and to be fair I haven't read it for years, next time I'm in smiths I'll have a sneaky browse!

And I would say prior to 2004/5 the membership of the EU was more manageable, then the free movement for central/east europe began, and inevitably more problems occurred, which you'd have to be blind not to notice.

If the EU could respect nation state sovereignty more [which was a democracy here looking less that way currently] and maybe had some sort of quota system for foreign workforce/benefits, cost us less than £3 billion annually, and was about trade, consumer rights and standards, pollution etc.. than maybe it would have been far more popular.

Protect Europe, the culture, traditions and standards -yes.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Rumours abound this morning that a deal is on the cards, not much sign however that the EU have softened in any significant fashion, but clear indications that the UK government has realised it's well and truly boxed itself in with refusing to extend the transition period, and is looking at its own reasonable worst case scenario predictions and grasping the fact that blaming it on the EU simply won't wash when thousands of trucks are piled up at Dover and supermarket shelves are starting to look bare. (And lest we forget that truck holding parks are being built in Kent so large that they will be visible from space with the naked eye.)

The government's own focus groups are telling them that people are plenty smart enough to understand that Covid and Brexit are two separate things, and that they absolutely will cop the blame (as they should!) for a disastrous No Deal Brexit, which will look like an act of pure recklessness and folly as the country is still reeling from Covid, and potentially in the middle of a ruinous second wave.

Obviously the EU want a deal as well, but it's the UK that needs one. Needless to say, that does not put us in a strong negotiating position.

The EU will probably throw Johnson a bone or two that he can wave in front of the British public and declare NEGOTIATING SUCCESS (as he did when he threw Northern Ireland under the bus with his Withdrawal Agreement), but just like the WA, the small print will make it clear that the EU will be getting what it wants.

This is what happens when one medium sized economy decides to detach itself from an economic juggernaut such as the EU without any fucking plan of what to do next.

 

[mack341]

Wish there was a 'hmm' emoji for thinking about a post; I'll have to catch up with the brexit stuff - been looking into covid a lot. [too much ]

I did hear something yesterday, that a deal may be on the cards now as the EU were making some concessions;
I suspect boris will misrepresent and gloss over any sovereignty concessions he makes though.

I'm sick and tired of him already, he will be ousted and remembered as a charlatan, though it'll probably take 10 years for the conservative voting public to get to that point.

 

[mack341]

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There is a draft legal text weighing in around 650 pages with just

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remaining to be agreed: fishing rights for European boats in UK waters, and the state aid rules imposed by Britain’s Government after the end of the transition period.

The key now is for the UK to convince the EU that it can be trusted not to undercut the continent on state aid, by pouring cash into British industry which would otherwise be unviable; a compromise on fishing would almost certainly follow.

Even though things look bleak now, just like with the withdrawal agreement last year a deal would ensure all the remaining issues – including the Internal Market Bill – can simply be shelved with no loss of face for either party.

 

[dunover]

Are we still on the 'Oven-ready' issue of Private Eye from which that excerpt was taken? Because if so, I'm still awaiting my delivery.

I guess the seller was using Economy Class postage, the sneaky git.

God I hate ebay

The latest one is the first that arrived yesterday after my recent subscription for a year. 2 photos of Boris on the cover waving, 'first wave' and 'second wave' hello and goodbye kinda thing.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I suspect boris will misrepresent and gloss over any sovereignty concessions he makes though.

I'm sick and tired of him already, he will be ousted and remembered as a charlatan, though it'll probably take 10 years for the conservative voting public to get to that point.

The only thing that surprises me about Johnson is that anyone is even remotely surprised he's turned out to be as awful as he has.

The man is a notorious liar, cheat, charlatan, fraud and shyster, and a lazy one at that, anyone who voted for him got exactly what they voted for.

It's like buying a box of washing powder from the supermarket, getting it home, opening it up and exclaiming, 'Fucking hell, this box is full of washing powder!'

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A typically incisive article from Jonathan Lis. Anyone who still even thinks of uttering the words 'I knew what I was voting for' gets a perfect ten out of ten for self-delusion.

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And so, as night follows day, the government seeks to blame Brussels. This week Environment Secretary George Eustice declared that disruption could in fact emerge from a “failure of the EU to plan.” That was of course nonsense. Never mind that everything stems from the UK’s political decisions to leave the single market and customs union, not to tell people what that entailed, and then refuse any opportunity to extend the negotiating period. France was building new border posts and the Netherlands was recruiting new customs officers while the UK was still insisting nothing would change. The government has only one thing it can blame the EU for, and that is treating Britain in precisely the way it demanded: as a third country. The real complaint is that Brussels took us at our word.

It is, in any case, pointless to try and blame the EU, either practically or politically. It’s not just that the government alone is now answerable to the British people. We were told the EU could never hurt us, that its interests didn’t count, and that its trade barriers were irrelevant. Those lies are now being ruthlessly exposed.

Perhaps it is the cynicism which wounds the most. All the promises of “exact same benefits,” “the easiest deal in human history” and Britain “holding all the cards” have been swept away without a single acknowledgement those words were ever uttered. Under the new approved narrative, we knew we were voting for economic chaos and a broken global reputation. That was the price of freedom, and if you think you were told otherwise, you must be mistaken.

 

[Slottery]

Sir Jim Ratcliffe, the UK’s richest person and high-profile Brexiter, has quit Britain for tax-free

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When you after a long waiting are so near to get what you wanted, you move away...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A substantial majority of people in the UK now think that leaving the EU was the wrong decision.

The numbers have been trending in this direction for a while, but this is the biggest gap yet for 'Wrong' above 'Right'.

Unfortunately it's all too fucking late now, the liars and the cheats won.

Now that their lies and cheats have been revealed, it becomes obvious they'd never have won without the lying and the cheating.

And lest we forget, the transition period hasn't even finished yet......

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The UK asks the EU to accept car parts made in other third countries (such as Japan and Turkey) to count as 'UK produced' for the purposes of a trade deal. EU says no, because, y'know, Japan and Turkey are not the UK.

The risk the EU sees here is that UK simply becomes a low-cost production hub right on its doorstep, bringing in parts from all over the world on the cheap, assembling the cars here, and then hosing them into EU markets under the auspices of a 'UK/EU' trade deal.

As such the EU has rejected what it calls 'third-country cumulation' and the UK has conceded it can't insist upon it. (Taking Back Control!)

This is part of all the boring stuff that so many people paid little or no attention to, or simply dismissed as Project Fear, now coming into effect. (It's interesting how Project Fear has now disappeared completely from the Leavers' lexicon isn't it? Because Project Truth or Project Reality aren't quite as catchy.)

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UK's request to the EU, and before anyone says 'MEAN EU REFUSING TO TALK TO US ABOUT IT' please understand this is literally the exact position that the UK decided to put itself into to.

So we're basically saying, 'Yes we know we've jumped into this lake but we've discovered that it's wet and we don't like it, so can you make it dry instead please.'

This is toddler-level politics from the UK.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is starting to feel a bit one-sided, so I'd really appreciate some balance from folks who can post anything resembling a 'good news' Brexit story, there must be some, because we were all told Brexit would be such a positive experience. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

Anyway, here are pharmaceutical and aerospace industry heads telling a UK Commons Select Committee that everything about Brexit is bad news,

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Paul Everitt, chief executive of the ADS Group, the aerospace trade organisation, said: “Whatever happens now, we will be involved in a day-to-day struggle to ensure the goods that we need to see flowing across our borders.”

He said: “It will happen at whatever cost it has to bear – but that obviously shapes and impacts on people’s future investment plans. It’s not a happy place for us to be.”

None of the three witnesses could state a reason for welcoming the end of the transition period, on 31 December, when challenged by Hilary Benn, the Brexit committee’s chairman.

 

[mack341]

I would just say that as a leave voter I was not expecting an instant GDP increase or economic boom, it was a decision mainly based on the long term.

However I can't hear much merriment from the other current EU members that they're going to benefit so much by staying in either.

 

[TheAddict]

How dare you, Mack!?
Obviously everyone cast their leave vote based on what the heel dragging May, or embarassing Boris were saying. How dare you take into account what kind of life your children are going to be subjected too.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I would just say that as a leave voter I was not expecting an instant GDP increase or economic boom, it was a decision mainly based on the long term.

Let's run with that then.

So right out of the gate you're saying you thought that every prominent Leave campaigner was lying to you, so for example:

1) Easy trade deal with EU
2) Maintain the benefits of being an EU member
3) Economic boost
4) Great trade deals with major other world powers
5) No downsides/we hold all the cards
6) £350m per week for the NHS

etc etc - we all remember the bullshit.

You didn't believe any of that, i.e. you literally thought everyone in Vote Leave was lying to you, but you voted leave anyway for 'stuff' that is neither defined nor understood, that may or may not materialise years down the line, and in the meantime all the negative effects are a price for worth paying for..... 'stuff', five or ten years from now?

And the thousands of job losses, and the border in Kent, and the trashing of the UK's reputation on the world stage, and the fact that every major UK industry is at red alert, and the impending massive disruption to trade, and all the rest of it, all that's a price worth paying for 'long term' benefits?

What are those long term benefits, exactly? I ask because all the good stuff Vote Leave said would happen has vanished into thin air, and they've stopped even pretending.

 

[mack341]

I thought the EU were likely to be spitting angry, therefore willing to shoot us both in the feet, cut their nose off to spite their face [or rather their members] etc...

I shall return to this subject later on once the trade deal has been made, or not as the case may be.

If you can see no disadvantages to being in the EU then you will not see any advantages to being out.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Funny to think we're on the cusp of the end of the transition period and we don't even have a trade deal with the EU yet, which was supposed to be the easiest part of all.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

EU takes the first step in legal action against the UK for announcing its intention (and legislating accordingly in Parliament) to break international law with regards to the Withdrawal Agreement. (Which is also an immediate breach of the 'good faith' provision.)

The UK is now about to discover what happens when a 'sovereign' nation makes and then reneges on international agreements.

I can't believe how many cards we hold and how much control we're taking back. It's amazing. (Because let's face it folks, the UK are guilty as charged. In legal terms, we're stood over the body with the bloody knife in our hand, arguing that we only murdered someone in a 'limited and specific way'.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Go on, who had:

'The UK will announce its intention to break International law, and legislate in Parliament to enable it to do so, in terms of reneging on a legally binding Withdrawal Agreement that its government voluntarily negotiated, signed and campaigned for a general election on the back of, and as a result the EU will start legal action against the UK, with three months to go before the end of the transition period at which point the UK will crash out of the EU in a No Deal Brexit'.

On their list of, 'I knew what I was voting for'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Someone made an honest version of the bus.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Go on, who had:

'The UK will announce its intention to break International law, and legislate in Parliament to enable it to do so, in terms of reneging on a legally binding Withdrawal Agreement that its government voluntarily negotiated, signed and campaigned for a general election on the back of, and as a result the EU will start legal action against the UK, with three months to go before the end of the transition period at which point the UK will crash out of the EU in a No Deal Brexit'.

On their list of, 'I knew what I was voting for'.

ADDITION - To be clear, this isn't intended to be seen as an attack or taking the piss out of those who voted Leave, but it is absolutely an attack on the total liars and fraudsters who peddled a fantasy Brexit that could never exist, that could never survive contact with reality, and that has plodded, with depressing and dreadful inevitability, to where we are now.

Johnson and his awful, fucking terrible government, have made a bad situation far worse, especially with their 'oven-ready deal' horseshit that won an election off the back of a legally binding withdrawal agreement that was so godawful they've now had to legislate to break international law to try and avoid implementing it, and placed us in the utterly humiliating position that the EU are beginning legal action against us at the same time that we're asking them for a trade deal.

I swear to god you could have put a group of monkeys in charge and they couldn't possibly have fucked things up as much as Johnson's government has. Or rather, and let's not kid ourselves here, as Dominic Cummings's government has.

 

[dealer wins]

We need to walk away from the EU now. Lets go it alone, like most countries do. Anyone wants to trade with us great, the EU are corrupt, and we need to look outside them for our future.

 

[irish-ranger]

We need to walk away from the EU now. Lets go it alone, like most countries do. Anyone wants to trade with us great, the EU are corrupt, and we need to look outside them for our future.

I suspect choppy will disagree for some one who dosnt live in the UK he certainly has an agenda..

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well all my family still live in the UK (apart from Mrs Chopley and Chopley Jnr), as do many of my friends, so I worry about what's in store for them, if that counts as an 'agenda'.

 

[TheAddict]

Every PM, or POTUS who claims to do what the majority originally voted them in for, like Boris, or Trump, is an absolute retard. Coinicidence though. Of course.

Every PM, or POTUS who is either pro EU, or who is pro invading countries despite the public didnt want it, who were more than happy to send your family members away to fight and maybe die in unjustifiable wars, often literally lying about why they have to go there, was also a coincidence. Of course.
But lets forget the (I dont know the number) innocent people who's lives were taken away in Iraq for example, or Syria, to name a recent few.
And lets forget those who were lucky to have even survived the onslaught of wars our puppets have led us into, the fortunate bastards .
Ok, they likely have no home at all, or perhaps they do, but their home town is in ruins and they wake up everyday wondering why this happened to them. Maybe they just lost one member of their family too, hopefully not all, but lets call them the lucky ones.

The system is an absolute joke.
But lets keep blaming the retarded puppets who, at least since jfk, never had the peoples interest at heart. I mean Obviously, what happened to JFK pretty soon after he wanted to remove things like the private banking system, or when he talked about their being people behind the curtains, was just a coincidence too. blatantly.

But lets forget anything I've just mentjoned above, those who risked their lives for nothing, those who died or now suffer because those people risked their lives for nothing. Lets keep blaming todays puppet, because he or she will be replaced soon, right?

Edit. This rant is sponsered by San Miguel.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Slightly desperate update from the UK government. It is the world's worst kept secret that UK businesses are not ready for Brexit, they have been battered badly by Covid-19, they don't even know what the future trading relationship with the EU is going to be, but are still being told to prepare for it. They are literally being told to prepare for something that does not yet exist.

There is a sentiment amongst many businesses that in a No Deal Brexit, or a Shit Deal Brexit, they're just going to throw in the towel, as Covid-19 has already pushed many of them to the brink.

The failure to extend the transition period is going to bite this government on the arse very, very badly.

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[dunover]

Slightly desperate update from the UK government. It is the world's worst kept secret that UK businesses are not ready for Brexit, they have been battered badly by Covid-19, they don't even know what the future trading relationship with the EU is going to be, but are still being told to prepare for it. They are literally being told to prepare for something that does not yet exist.

There is a sentiment amongst many businesses that in a No Deal Brexit, or a Shit Deal Brexit, they're just going to throw in the towel, as Covid-19 has already pushed many of them to the brink.

The failure to extend the transition period is going to bite this government on the arse very, very badly.

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View attachment 143030

Yes, it's a mess.
P.S. Love the Private Eye magazine, quite a lot in there, long read, they don't pull punches! Look forward to it each fortnight. And I finished this editions' cryptic crossword, may win £100...

 

[Slottery]

Wouldn't worry too much, don't forget:

"The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets,"

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, it's a mess.
P.S. Love the Private Eye magazine, quite a lot in there, long read, they don't pull punches! Look forward to it each fortnight. And I finished this editions' cryptic crossword, may win £100...

It's a good read isn't it? And a surprising number of words in each issue, on a wide variety of topics.

The cartoons are excellent too.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just a brief heads-up.

Last night, the UK Parliament legislated away protection for UK food standards in future trade deals.

 

[pinnit2014]

I look forward to my Chicken, fresh from completing 10 lengths of the local swimming pool.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And for the record, here's what Liz Truss said in the Commons in March of this year.

So either we're going to stand up to the big bullies over in the USA and get our own way in a trade deal, (LOL), or it turns out it's another Big Fat Brexit Lie and the government legislated as it did last night to make that lie become a reality.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The government has marched UK businesses up and down the No Deal Brexit hill several times already, the IT systems and lorry capacity operations are not finished, the future trading relationship with the EU is still unknown, UK Plc is still reeling from the devastating body blow of Covid-19, we're in recession at a time of rising unemployment, the government had the option to extend the transition period but chose not to.

Government minister concludes it'll be businesses' own fault if they suffer as a result of Brexit.

Ahhhhh, those sunlit uplands where we hold all the cards.

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[Slottery]

Many have prepared quite well and made fortunes with Brexit. It can't be 100% surprise that there's is chance called "no deal Brexit" happening, i think all i've been affecting (customer of Revolut) asked me to agree to new T&C:s over one and half year ago and changed my IBAN to be not UK one (that IBAN change happened just little while ago but was well informed about it beforehand).

So if you totally have missed to do anything and been only 100% sure that nothing gonna change, it's bit of own fault as well if there's nothing done by now for "no deal" option, it's been on everywhere and it haven't been really hard to see that there is need to some backup plan for that.

If you been just having your head in sand and remembering stories about owen ready deal, you can really bit blame yourself already as well (if you run international business and haven't done anything).

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Oh well, we can take some small comfort from the fact that in its new role as 'massive lorry park', Kent will at least be receiving some glamorous new facilities.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Looks like those who 'knew they were voting for no deal', or indeed, 'I wanted no deal when I voted leave' have a good chance of finding out what it means in reality.

Enjoy!

Shame about that 'oven ready deal' that people voted for at the general election though.

 

[TheAddict]

Listening to the Boris at the now since the bbc news is on and i cba to go to the other side of the room to change the channel to, literally pretty much fkng anything other than the bbc news.
He's been rabbiting on about a lot of shit and has managed it even without a stutter, But still, all I can concentrate on is what he might look like with a grade 2 instead of that mop on his head.

Seems to be something about Manchester United and Liverpool. Looks like Cornwall might even be joining the prem. The multiple signs provided infront of each speaker for the audience incase they forget which direction the male and female toilets are, with accompanying reminders to wash hands after was a pretty thoughtful touch. Only the PM of Britain would take it one step further and be so thoughtful after dropping a depth charge to even include a 'I wouldn't go in there if I were you' mask wearing warning.

 

[slotplayer]

And for the record, here's what Liz Truss said in the Commons in March of this year.

So either we're going to stand up to the big bullies over in the USA and get our own way in a trade deal, (LOL), or it turns out it's another Big Fat Brexit Lie and the government legislated as it did last night to make that lie become a reality.

View attachment 143085

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• Animal Care: We never use drugs for growth promotion in raising poultry and livestock, and we're advancing our animal care programs by partnering with animal rights organizations.
• No Antibiotics Ever: Our premium brands are leaders in no-antibiotics-ever chicken, turkey, pork, beef and lamb and in USDA-certified organic chicken and beef. We’re also proud to feature a growing portfolio of heritage-breed, pastured and grass-fed products.

 

[Kroffe]

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[pinnit2014]

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For the skin focused amongst us i'd give their cosmetics a wide berth as well; they seem to think 'what could this make up/skin product do with, i know, asbestos!'

 

[slotplayer]

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I eat the chicken so don't post this stuff.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Another Brexit dividend for everyone. Less choice, higher prices.

Also some shocking news about the availability of William Shatner memorabilia.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Some sensible points by Daniel Hannan, and thank goodness boris has set a deadline for middle of oct, stop this rigmarole dragging on for any longer:

The same Daniel Hannan.

 

[Harry_BKK]

The same Daniel Hannan.

View attachment 143803

View attachment 143804

Sounds almost like Mr T proclaiming years ago to bring the coal jobs back!!!

Back to the 20th century, no need to invest into the future

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It shows the desperate reality of where we've ended up, compared to the nonsensical promises of a few years ago.

And the transition period hasn't even ended yet.

Seriously. Fish guts.

Also, this from the UK Freight Transport Association.

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In a letter to The Sunday Times newspaper, he warned: "Everyday household items we import will become more expensive under World Trade Organisation tariffs, some by 30 per cent or more.

"This will make the household shopping basket much more expensive, particularly in the early part of 2021 when we rely on imports for much of our fresh food."

Cabinet minister

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has admitted that leaving the transition period without a trade deal would cause "some turbulence".

In his letter, Mr Wells said: "The actual cost of moving goods will also increase, if new vehicles, parts and tyres are also subject to tariffs.

"This is more than 'turbulence', as suggested by Mr Gove last week, and logistics businesses, operating on 2 per cent margins, cannot afford to take on these costs."

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The words 'clutching' and 'straws' spring to mind.

UK Government's Department for International Trade (genuine verified account) trumpeting the fact that under the UK/Japan trade deal, the tariff on soy sauce will be 0%.

They juxtapose this with the fact that under WTO terms, the tariff on soy sauce is 6%.

They neglect to mention that we are currently trading with Japan under the EU FTA as we are still in the transition period, under which the tariff on soy sauce is, erm, also 0%.

This is literally where we're at now, fish guts (see previous post) and soy sauce not getting any more expensive than it is already under the deal we got as an EU member.

The rest of the world must be quaking in its boots for what lies in store when the UK properly shakes off the yoke of EU oppression in January.

WE'RE COMING AT YOU WITH A LOAD OF DEAD FISH AND REASONABLY PRICED SOY SAUCE MOTHERFUCKERS! RULE BRITANNIA!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Still with the price of soy sauce I'm afraid, which the UK Department for International Trade seems amusingly/alarmingly (delete as appropriate) obsessed with.

(ADDITIONAL POINT OF ORDER - The UK imports nearly all of its soy sauce from The Netherlands, which makes the whole thing a moot point anyway, but we'll ignore that for now.)

They originally claimed that soy sauce would get cheaper. (It is actually soy sauce, not soya sauce, but we'll ignore that for now too.)

But this morning they had to row back from that with another Tweet that reads as follows.

And also of course, in doing so, essentially conceded the fact that trading on WTO terms is shit and would be a fucking dreadful idea for any trading nation to unilaterally inflict upon itself.

Which of course is exactly what the UK will do to itself with its single biggest trading partner (the EU) in the event of a No-Deal Brexit, which Boris Johnson still breezily insists will be just fine.

 

[mack341]

Yes they're not exactly aiming for the sky with this, If I was cynical I'd say the DTI was trolling us brexiteers!

How sad am I that I checked the soy sauce on sainsburys website well three bottles, sainsburys' own was from malaysia, they had another from the Netherlands, and an expensive looking japanese made brand kikkomans or something.

I like the fact we have done a trade deal with japan, we could learn from their country, how they run things and invest in themselves...for example all their hospitals are run by trained doctors instead of bureaucrats, and are not for profit.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Kikkomans is actually made in The Netherlands (or certainly, the stuff that's sold in the EU is).

So without a trade deal, it will become more expensive in January.

Yes I know it's only soy sauce, but it's emblematic of a wider point. WTO trading terms are shit, and if we end up on them, a lot of stuff is going to get more expensive, in some cases much more expensive, and that's before we even get into the realms of scarcity when it comes to some products we take for granted now.

(And of course, it will render many of our exports completely non-viable from an economic perspective.)

So yes theoretically we could switch to imports of soy sauce from Japan to get it on 0% tariffs, but that's not exactly a massive win is it? Japan is nearly 6000 miles away, The Netherlands is just over the water, and of course there will be extra costs involved in getting it here from Japan.

There are just no wins with left with Brexit, are there? Every single deceitful promise and lie has crumbled into dust.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Leaked slide from within Jaguar/Land Rover setting out in black and white what Brexit is looking like for them as transition comes to an end.

Note that both 'Deal' and 'No Deal' are shit, it's just that No Deal is even more shit than Deal.

Also note that one of the mitigating factors in a No Deal outcome is a collapse in the value of the pound which is expected to offset some of the impact of tariffs.

(Which of course means that for the rest of us normal folk, our pounds buy a lot less.)

What you can see, very clearly, is that Brexit is nothing but bad news for the British car industry. (Honda made submissions to a Commons Select Committee along these lines three years ago.)