New Slot Announcement Bonanza by Big Time Gaming

[CongoGB]

Only ever had 1 of those, and I think it barely hit 100x - good luck Jono! Although it's been over 30 mins now, so I suspect a broken laptop!

 

[Jono777]

135x

Soooo many dead spins and I managed Dunover's "Bogus wild above reel 2" a whopping 4 times!

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Had this today in the base game. 0.60p spin. Think it was red gems but just missed it as had had a crap bonus just before. Second one is a +5 trigger and it's average payout.

 

[snorky510238]

Okay, I don’t want spend ages going over trodden ground as everyone knows my gripes with online slots and providers, particularly BTG and Evolution. Like it or not, my opinion is that they are a bunch of underhanded, filthy cheats. A disgrace to the Industry. This is based on stats not just guesswork.

For sometime I had noticed that the Virgin Games version of Bonanza was even worse than any other, I had ever played and that includes SKY so just imagine.

I kept plodding, thinking I might hit a win that recoups some of the loss but my patience finally ran out after another £200 disappeared without trace.

I have copied the transcript of the conversation that ensued for your perusal. Make of it what you will but for those asking me to post stats, there you go.

You also wouldn’t believe what happened to the £20 goodwill.

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Unhappy with my gameplay

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We are just searching for an available agent and we’ll be with you as soon as we can. Please do not navigate away from this chat in the meantime. Thank you for your patience.

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Hi! Thank you very much for contacting, I am more than happy to look over your query, in order to complete security could you confirm your full name please?

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Thank you, and how are you today, Snorky? And how may I be of assistance, please?

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I have to question the way Bonanza has been playing for me at Virgin.

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It plays like it is broken.

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Sorry, which game do you mean?

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Bonanza.

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Apologies, I misread what you said, sorry. What do you mean by it's broken, though?

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I have never come across anything like the way it plays at Virgin. Deposit after deposit swallowed up in minutes. I need a proper check but I think I have played at least £600 of deposits through it in the last week and IIRC only saw 1 bonus that paid virtually nothing.

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Thanks for clarifying the issue for me, and I'm very sorry to hear this! Please bear with me a moment while I review your game history.

Snorky via chat
Yes I would be grateful if you would. I know the game so well that I know when something is “off” and it is here, without question.

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Thank you for your patience there. I've had a look now and I can completely understand your frustration. I can see that over the last 30 days, you've wagered around £6,467 on Bonanza, and you've won around £5,200.

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This means the Return to Player (RTP) over the last 30 days is around 80.4% for you, so I appreciate why you would say what you did.

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But I can assure you that our non-live games are determined by a Random Number Generator (RNG) to ensure fairness for all players, including yourself. This means each spin is independent of the last. As the outcomes are random, this means that we can’t guarantee winnings to any member, regardless of the amount that’s spent. Remember that it can be the case that you'll go through lucky or unlucky periods, but I can assure you that results of spins are in no way based on any of your past account activity, such as your deposits, withdrawals, or wagers.

Snorky via chat
80.4% on a game that is supposed to be 96%

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What was my rtp prior to the last 30 days?

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Yes, that's true, however, please bear in mind that the RTP is calculated as the average over literally tens of thousands and thousands of spins, if not more.

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So the variance of gambling means that it won't always be the exact RTP mentioned.

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But over November, your RTP was 88.7%. In October it was 76.6% and in September it was 86.1%.

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And lifetime?

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Since opening your account, your total RTP has been 84.69% (wagered: £17,106.80, won: £14,488.01).

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But yesterday, for example, I can see you won £34.53 from a 60p spin, as well as £14.10 for 60p. Today, your best win was £12.50 for a £2.00 spin.

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I would recommend that you try our games in demo mode as well as mixing up your gameplay with some of our newer games. Lowering your wager amount can enable you to have more play for your money, as well as withdrawing little and often which will help you to notice some more of those wins. If you do still feel you are not having the best of luck after trying our suggestions, taking a short break from the site can help avoid feeling disheartened with the games.

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So not just a hunch that the game plays dreadfully at Virgin, we have the stats to back it up.

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Sadly, you have not had the best of luck here, I can't deny that. But that's why I've given you some suggestions to help avoid feeling disappointed with the games.

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Over that amount of time and that many spins and deposits, I would expect to be closer to trtp.

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Or, at least not keep dropping way below it.

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I agree with you on that point, absolutely. However, as I've said, the variance of gambling is such that the RTP is a statistical average, some will be luckier, some will be unluckier. But as a one-off gesture of goodwill, I will credit your account with a £20 bonus, so you can have some free spins on me.

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That’s very kind and thanks for your honesty. Have a good evening.

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No problem, I promise, I wasn't just trying to placate you when I said that I see where you're coming from!

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When I saw the figures myself, I couldn't argue with them, they are not at expected RTPs, simple as that. But do bear in mind what I said about variance with gambling! And I have now credited the bonus to your account. You may need to log out and log back in again for this to show on your balance.

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I hope this bonus brings a change in fortune for you! Is there anything else I can help with for now, please?

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No thanks?

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Lovely, thanks for your time, best of luck again and have a merry Christmas! Thanks for using our Live Chat service today. Did it solve your issue? We would love it if you could complete a short feedback survey which will appear when you click ‘close'.

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No problem.

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Left a comment "Richard was very helpful as it is not his fault the game played so badly for me"

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[sufferinsilence]

You also wouldn’t believe what happened to the £20 goodwill.

Don't keep us waiting!

 

[goatwack]

Richard B does make a valid point though. You did win £34.53 from a 60p spin

 

[snorky510238]

Richard B does make a valid point though. You did win £34.53 from a 60p spin

Had to keep calm with that one.

 

[snorky510238]

Don't keep us waiting!

Well, I actually hit 2 bonus rounds. And yes, it is amazing my phone survived. Talk about salt and wounds.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So from the screenshots and the chat transcript, your stakes have been anything from 40p to £2 per spin, obviously the higher your stake, particularly on smaller bankrolls, the more volatile your swings in RTP are going to be. £200 in deposits isn't much when your stakes are as high as £2 per spin.

Your stats are certainly pretty awful, no denying that, I'd be pissed off too.

That said, you've been calling BTG underhanded filthy cheats and liars who are stealing your money for years now, and several hundred pages of this thread too, speaking as an ex-addict myself (compensated fruit machines were my personal ruin, fortunately very many years in the rear view mirror at this point), the best, and most sincere advice I can give you is to stop playing Bonanza, and use your money for something else, something that will bring you pleasure.

Your relationship with this slot is not healthy, your position with Bonanza is unrecoverable and you are the absolute living definition of the sunk cost fallacy, I've lost count of the number of times you've sworn off Bonanza in this thread, the best thing you can do is do so again, but make this time the last time.

 

[Schind]

"But over November, your RTP was 88.7%. In October it was 76.6% and in September it was 86.1%."

Those numbers for November and September sound familiar.
Since the latest update in July I've done 115,000 spins and my RTP is 90.47%. Thing is it was 90.48% after 20,000 spins. Who was it said the closer you get to a million spins the closer to the theoretical RTP you'll get? Mine's stayed static at around 89-90% for nearly four months now. I've cut right back on the game now as the RTP is too low and, since September, I'm only averaging a bonus every 540-560 spins.
These days I only play it with bookie's money.
I have to agree with Chopley - give it a rest for your own sake. You'll feel better for it.

 

[snorky510238]

The thing is, BTG are obviously running a massively corrupt version of the game that achieves nowhere near the said rtp and they are getting away with it. It’s plain, wrong and makes a total mockery of anyone who even suggests online slotting is properly audited.

At least most other providers have the honesty and integrity to announce rtp changes but not BTG.

As @Schind states above, according to the experts, the more spins you complete, the nearer to trtp you should be so how is it that my rtp has gone the other way quicker than you would have thought possible?

 

[Jono777]

The thing is, BTG are obviously running a massively corrupt version of the game that achieves nowhere near the said rtp and they are getting away with it. It’s plain, wrong and makes a total mockery of anyone who even suggests online slotting is properly audited.

At least most other providers have the honesty and integrity to announce rtp changes but not BTG.

As @Schind states above, according to the experts, the more spins you complete, the nearer to trtp you should be so how is it that my rtp has gone the other way quicker than you would have thought possible?

+1

 

[CongoGB]

[Deleted my post - not worth feeding the troll]

 

[kennygamerboy]

The thing is, BTG are obviously running a massively corrupt version of the game that achieves nowhere near the said rtp and they are getting away with it. It’s plain, wrong and makes a total mockery of anyone who even suggests online slotting is properly audited.

At least most other providers have the honesty and integrity to announce rtp changes but not BTG.

As @Schind states above, according to the experts, the more spins you complete, the nearer to trtp you should be so how is it that my rtp has gone the other way quicker than you would have thought possible?

I also feel like they can tinker with it at Any moment remotely without having to even update anybody.

 

[kennygamerboy]

The thing is, BTG are obviously running a massively corrupt version of the game that achieves nowhere near the said rtp and they are getting away with it. It’s plain, wrong and makes a total mockery of anyone who even suggests online slotting is properly audited.

At least most other providers have the honesty and integrity to announce rtp changes but not BTG.

As @Schind states above, according to the experts, the more spins you complete, the nearer to trtp you should be so how is it that my rtp has gone the other way quicker than you would have thought possible?

I'm gonna ask betvictor and will hill and virgin and jackpot joyless for my lifetime bonanza rtp and post on here as I know its around 80% on those sites! Also since I've seen the light and wonder pop up before the game its never ever been as filthy. Like thousands of spins and session and after session with no bonus and only seeing the odd scatter! It's shocking beyond belief

 

[ChopleyIOM]

At least most other providers have the honesty and integrity to announce rtp changes but not BTG.

What happened to that damning dossier of evidence you'd all but finished compiling 18 months or so ago? Surely with all the extra evidence you've managed to gather since then, you'll be able to prove to the regulator that BTG are advertising Bonanza at a fake RTP and running a 'massively corrupt' version of it?

I also assume that's the only reason you're still playing it with your actual own money, to gather more evidence.

Also, as a thought experiment, let's go with the assumption that you're correct, that all of the accusations you've levelled at BTG in this thread, and elsewhere on the forums, and have been doing now for years and years, let's assume they're all correct. snorky has called it right!

Surely the 'reward' as it were for that, is to give you the knowledge not to play Bonanza, or any other BTG game for that matter, you have seen the corruption and you know that you must avoid it. So why did you bin a chunk of cash on Bonanza the other night at Virgin and then complain to them about your RTP, and take a comp at the end of it, the corrupt casino running the corrupt game throws a £20 bone to the wronged player, which you just take and walk away with, and then lose.

It's like, in your head you know you're being conned, but you keep going back to get conned again anyway. Time and time again. As per my post above, there's a word for that. I've been there myself, so I know it when I see it.

 

[kennygamerboy]

I can't stand william hill customer service. Put me through to a supervisor. Supervisor clearly sees the game name and who it's by. Then replies with this. What a idiot. Barely give time to reply before closing chat down! Bare in mind they tell you it's a not a live chat service and to come back to the screen. Prats. They know full well I'm probably not the first person seeking my rtp on the bonanza on that site. How can every session have the same outcome on there. Which is 10 dead spins couple of micro wins 10 dead spins and then deposit done. No scatters. Filth

 

[dunover]

I have to admit I concur with the Sky and Jackpot Joyless observations - SkyVegas I took a rodgering over 18 months on it and IIRC barely scraped 92%, that was sum of deposits minus w/d's. JJ was the worst I ever had, 13 consecutive 50 quid deposits over 2 weeks, 50 a day (which was my limit there at the time) and I didn't catch a single feature in that period, RTP IIRC over those deposits was around 68% and they were 20p and 40p spins in the main. I never played there again after that, SE'd.


Then again, the Freaky Vegas classic where I deposited £50 and built up to £158, changed to £2 spins got a 3628x feature and cashed out £7,800 just days before the place was rogued and disappeared, was paid and so ended up with a RTP there of 15,600% lol. (Just shy of Chopley's BTG RTP...)

Recently I had a monster 400x base game hit on max stake, without that this year would have been in low 90's and that sums it all up - your long term returns on the bastard are very dependent upon those rare but freak huge wins and the stake you get them on.

The Bonanza long-term losses I find are far lower than those I had on the Rapist when I was obsessed with that game, far more brutal IMO.

 

[snorky510238]

[Deleted my post - not worth feeding the troll]

Not sure you can class Chopley as a troll.

 

[snorky510238]

I have to admit I concur with the Sky and Jackpot Joyless observations - SkyVegas I took a rodgering over 18 months on it and IIRC barely scraped 92%, that was sum of deposits minus w/d's. JJ was the worst I ever had, 13 consecutive 50 quid deposits over 2 weeks, 50 a day (which was my limit there at the time) and I didn't catch a single feature in that period, RTP IIRC over those deposits was around 68% and they were 20p and 40p spins in the main. I never played there again after that, SE'd.


Then again, the Freaky Vegas classic where I deposited £50 and built up to £158, changed to £2 spins got a 3628x feature and cashed out £7,800 just days before the place was rogued and disappeared, was paid and so ended up with a RTP there of 15,600% lol. (Just shy of Chopley's BTG RTP...)

Recently I had a monster 400x base game hit on max stake, without that this year would have been in low 90's and that sums it all up - your long term returns on the bastard are very dependent upon those rare but freak huge wins and the stake you get them on.

The Bonanza long-term losses I find are far lower than those I had on the Rapist when I was obsessed with that game, far more brutal IMO.

I would also add that some sites seem to have a version with minimal liability compared with others.

VS is one imo. I hit hundreds if not over a thousand bonuses there and if memory serves, I never bettered the £350, I hit early on at 60p. Most of the others paid up to about x200.

There is definitely a range that you seem to be able to hit at certain sites but never see at others.

 

[snorky510238]

What happened to that damning dossier of evidence you'd all but finished compiling 18 months or so ago? Surely with all the extra evidence you've managed to gather since then, you'll be able to prove to the regulator that BTG are advertising Bonanza at a fake RTP and running a 'massively corrupt' version of it?

I also assume that's the only reason you're still playing it with your actual own money, to gather more evidence.

Also, as a thought experiment, let's go with the assumption that you're correct, that all of the accusations you've levelled at BTG in this thread, and elsewhere on the forums, and have been doing now for years and years, let's assume they're all correct. snorky has called it right!

Surely the 'reward' as it were for that, is to give you the knowledge not to play Bonanza, or any other BTG game for that matter, you have seen the corruption and you know that you must avoid it. So why did you bin a chunk of cash on Bonanza the other night at Virgin and then complain to them about your RTP, and take a comp at the end of it, the corrupt casino running the corrupt game throws a £20 bone to the wronged player, which you just take and walk away with, and then lose.

It's like, in your head you know you're being conned, but you keep going back to get conned again anyway. Time and time again. As per my post above, there's a word for that. I've been there myself, so I know it when I see it.

Correct!

 

[kennygamerboy]

Right guys drum roll it gets worse!! This is my rtp at virgin games. 11% what the HELL. This is my worst site to be fair for bonanza literally deposits last around 40 seconds so makes sense!!

 

[kennygamerboy]

I would also add that some sites seem to have a version with minimal liability compared with others.

VS is one imo. I hit hundreds if not over a thousand bonuses there and if memory serves, I never bettered the £350, I hit early on at 60p. Most of the others paid up to about x200.

There is definitely a range that you seem to be able to hit at certain sites but never see at others.

Spot on. But again this proves that different casinos can have different versions. So no transparency or fairness at all and doesn't help my tin foil hat. Before anyone says I've won big on btg yes but the game has been destroyed beyond belief and I would love them to display the correct rtp. It's all cloak and daggers as well when you try and get you're actual rtp from the sites

 

[interlog]

Genuine question.

Why do those that think this game is rigged still play it? Why not give it a wide berth?

 

[goatwack]

You can't put a price on potential. Many would give their left arm just to catch the merest glimpse of it.

What is Bonanza potential? It is an idea; a vision. Give the people potential, and they will love you for it ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I have to admit I concur with the Sky and Jackpot Joyless observations - SkyVegas I took a rodgering over 18 months on it and IIRC barely scraped 92%, that was sum of deposits minus w/d's. JJ was the worst I ever had, 13 consecutive 50 quid deposits over 2 weeks, 50 a day (which was my limit there at the time) and I didn't catch a single feature in that period, RTP IIRC over those deposits was around 68% and they were 20p and 40p spins in the main. I never played there again after that, SE'd.


Then again, the Freaky Vegas classic where I deposited £50 and built up to £158, changed to £2 spins got a 3628x feature and cashed out £7,800 just days before the place was rogued and disappeared, was paid and so ended up with a RTP there of 15,600% lol. (Just shy of Chopley's BTG RTP...)

Recently I had a monster 400x base game hit on max stake, without that this year would have been in low 90's and that sums it all up - your long term returns on the bastard are very dependent upon those rare but freak huge wins and the stake you get them on.

The Bonanza long-term losses I find are far lower than those I had on the Rapist when I was obsessed with that game, far more brutal IMO.

'Sometimes I win on random games, sometimes I lose on random games, and I have better results at some sites than others'.

If you could add to the ongoing research gathering efforts pertaining to the Pope's praying habits, and where bears like to shit, that'd be cool.

 

[snorky510238]

Any Casino that takes it self preservation seriously should remove all BTG games from its library. It will be the reason a lot of players SE, if they don’t.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

 

[mcgameboy]

You can't put a price on potential. Many would give their left arm just to catch the merest glimpse of it.

What is Bonanza potential? It is an idea; a vision. Give the people potential, and they will love you for it ?

Oh no mate....NOT a vision. There is a MUCH MORE APT AND ACCURATE WORD to describe what "Bonanza Potential" is.

May I introduce you to the great Mr. Matthew McConaughey.....



Unless of course, your name is a Mr. Dazza Gee, the fucking spawniest Bonanza playing addict/twat so and so in the entire universe.....

 

[dunover]

Oh no mate....NOT a vision. There is a MUCH MORE APT AND ACCURATE WORD to describe what "Bonanza Potential" is.

May I introduce you to the great Mr. Matthew McConaughey.....



Unless of course, your name is a Mr. Dazza Gee, the fucking spawniest Bonanza playing addict/twat so and so in the entire universe.....

Not lately I ain't.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Any Casino that takes it self preservation seriously should remove all BTG games from its library. It will be the reason a lot of players SE, if they don’t.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

BTG and the entire online casino industry, following snorky's dire warning.

 

[Jono777]

Seems like there is a distinct lack of Christmas spirit in this thread.

Regardless of your stance, please accept the fact, at least until the New Year that slots, Bonanza especially are rigged and BTG are crooks who've declined with shining glory since Evo took over.

Me personally, the games HAVE changed but I no longer take satisfaction from banging my head up a brick wall.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Seems like there is a distinct lack of Christmas spirit in this thread.

Regardless of your stance, please accept the fact, at least until the New Year that slots, Bonanza especially are rigged and BTG are crooks who've declined with shining glory since Evo took over.

Me personally, the games HAVE changed but I no longer take satisfaction from banging my head up a brick wall.

How is it a fact though? If anyone had managed to produce even one shred of statistical evidence to back up any of the wild-eyed claims made in this thread, I'd have a bit more time for it (and 'my RTP was crap over a statistically insignificant spin sample' doesn't count), instead, every time anyone does bring any stats to the table, as I have done on several occasions now, and documented them here for everyone to see, they always check out.

Moreover, for every person who'll swear blind Bonanza has changed for the worse, someone else will say it seems the same for them as it's always been, and there are still a decent number of winning screenshots being posted to this very thread.

This has been done, time and time again, with seasoned commentators such as dunover (who has access to a lot more backend stuff than many of us do), noting what a fiendishly pernicious maths model BTG have managed to conjure up for Bonanza, that renders it entirely capable of some of the long extended runs we've seen in both the positive and negative directions.

I'd call it tinfoil hattery, but that's doing both tinfoil and hats a disservice.

 

[irish-ranger]

3 years bonanza free, money in the bank not staring at my phone 8x hrs a day credit report back to normal and don't give a flying fuck that there's no doubt this game is fixed..

 

[goatwack]

How is it a fact though? If anyone had managed to produce even one shred of statistical evidence to back up any of the wild-eyed claims made in this thread, I'd have a bit more time for it (and 'my RTP was crap over a statistically insignificant spin sample' doesn't count), instead, every time anyone does bring any stats to the table, as I have done on several occasions now, and documented them here for everyone to see, they always check out.

Moreover, for every person who'll swear blind Bonanza has changed for the worse, someone else will say it seems the same for them as it's always been, and there are still a decent number of winning screenshots being posted to this very thread.

This has been done, time and time again, with seasoned commentators such as dunover (who has access to a lot more backend stuff than many of us do), noting what a fiendishly pernicious maths model BTG have managed to conjure up for Bonanza, that renders it entirely capable of some of the long extended runs we've seen in both the positive and negative directions.

I'd call it tinfoil hattery, but that's doing both tinfoil and hats a disservice.

It was meant as tongue-in-cheek, bar the last sentence. Have some mulled wine and relax ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It was meant as tongue-in-cheek, bar the last sentence. Have some mulled wine and relax ?

I refuse!

 

[snorky510238]

BTG and the entire online casino industry, following snorky's dire warning.

View attachment 191128

Or be a yes man and follow your word as gospel.

 

[Jono777]

There is a very fine line between tin foil hattery and witnessed experience

Merry Christmas one and all

 

[Schind]

Witnessed experience - I record every 450 spins. Odd amount but that's what Nick Robinson said was the feature frequency when the game first started (it's somewhere in the first 50 pages or so of this thread).

Since I've been recording spins, 13 months or so now, I have never had more than three winning lots of 450 spins on the trot, yet I have had up to 15 losing lots of 450 on the trot and many occasions of seven, eight or more.
How is that random? You'd think it'd be nearer a 50/50 split as to whether you get over or under 96% on any set of spins. I'm not expecting a perfect 50/50 match nor am I expecting one win, one loss, one win, one loss etc but long runs of consecutive losses punctuated by short runs of winning sessions appears to be the behaviour of a compensated game rather than anything random. I grew up with the pub fruit machines in the 1970s and 1980s. Bonanza, and many other games seem to run the same way.
Until July I was getting a return of over 98.5% which is why I continued playing it - it's gone downhill rapidly!

I don't know how often games are tested for regulatory purposes but it'd be interesting to see if Bonanza gets a lower rating in the future, after all, it's already been ever so slightly reduced to 95.98% on the sites running the MGS version.

Just for context, some snips from my own database and my RTP chart since July (I colour code things to make it easier for me to see the bigger picture. Yellow is above RTP but still a loss):

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Witnessed experience - I record every 450 spins. Odd amount but that's what Nick Robinson said was the feature frequency when the game first started (it's somewhere in the first 50 pages or so of this thread).

Since I've been recording spins, 13 months or so now, I have never had more than three winning lots of 450 spins on the trot, yet I have had up to 15 losing lots of 450 on the trot and many occasions of seven, eight or more.
How is that random? You'd think it'd be nearer a 50/50 split as to whether you get over or under 96% on any set of spins. I'm not expecting a perfect 50/50 match nor am I expecting one win, one loss, one win, one loss etc but long runs of consecutive losses punctuated by short runs of winning sessions appears to be the behaviour of a compensated game rather than anything random. I grew up with the pub fruit machines in the 1970s and 1980s. Bonanza, and many other games seem to run the same way.
Until July I was getting a return of over 98.5% which is why I continued playing it - it's gone downhill rapidly!

I don't know how often games are tested for regulatory purposes but it'd be interesting to see if Bonanza gets a lower rating in the future, after all, it's already been ever so slightly reduced to 95.98% on the sites running the MGS version.

Just for context, some snips from my own database and my RTP chart since July (I colour code things to make it easier for me to see the bigger picture. Yellow is above RTP but still a loss):

Kudos for recording stats, I'm a big fan of that, but your conclusions are, with respect, flawed.

Bonanza's maths are really unusual, this has been discussed at length already in this thread, but since it's about seventy-three trillion pages long, and only five trillion of those are snorky calling BTG thieves and robbers, let's have a recap.

Bonanza has a far rarer feature than is usual.
Bonanza has a substantially higher average feature pay than is usual.
Bonanza has an unusually large amount of RTP weighted into a very churny basegame.

What this means, generally speaking, is that the game very frequently delivers a declining balance for the player right from the off, and if you're getting below average feature pays and/or frequency, that traffic will be depressingly one way, albeit it'll take quite a while to deliver the killing blow.

It's a strange maths model with a strange volatility profile, when you're hitting features on about the expected beats, and they're delivering about the expected average pay, it can keep you going for a long time, especially with that small win churning basegame holding so much of the RTP. Once that feature frequency and/or pay drifts much, you can be left with extended downswings, or upswings.

All that said, in the final analysis all online slots need to fundamentally work to the same basic model, as a product of their volatility, which is to deliver rarer winning sessions off the back of more common losing sessions, from the starting position of the maths being, by design, against the player, because however you want to slice it up, with a house edge of 4% in Bonanza's case (or far more on many other slots), the only real variable is how long it's going to take you to lose all your money.

 

[snorky510238]

So after all said and done. How is it that in the early days everyone was saying what a great game it was for wagering. How £20 deposits could last for hours?

Now all you see is a deposit ripped in seconds. The win frequency is shot to pieces. You would Never and I repeat, NEVER see 15 losing spins in a row. 6 or 7 was rare but now, 15 consecutive losing spins is a frequent occurrence.

How is that losing sessions 95% of the time, bust you out in minutes with only a few sessions here and there where your balance fluctuates? And even then it won’t be by much.

If the game was truly pulling random results, balances would fluctuate all the time but no, a losing session seems to pull all the results from hell and nothing will change it.

There’s not even a 0.0001% chance that the game is random. There really isn’t and anyone who has put enough spins through it will say the same.

 

[goatwack]

I'd imagine most slotters are aware of how RTP works, and that with a 96% Return To Player, that 4% would be lost to the game, and, indeed, 96% would be returned to the player.

Problem is of course when the finalized percentage is taken as fact, when it is an ongoing process, and something that can only be attained after supposedly billions of spins.

This gives the added protection for companies to negate any especially bad streaks players may encounter, as that can be passed off as bad luck, seemingly, knowing that no player alive will truly achieve this. Pretty convenient, that!

So if a game ever were to actually get nerfed into oblivion, and a slew of regular players noticing disparities, it could be just as easy to stick a 'bad luck!' hat on it and call players delusional.

BTG are pulling a fast one, and whilst Bonanza's always been a bastard since its inception, the notion that a game can play so differently according to many, indicates that the 'it'll even itself out over time!' argument is just as flawed, as most won't be alive to witness this feat.

I still await players going on months' worth of stunning winning runs on Bonanza, given its infinite scope

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So after all said and done. How is it that in the early days everyone was saying what a great game it was for wagering. How £20 deposits could last for hours?

Now all you see is a deposit ripped in seconds. The win frequency is shot to pieces. You would Never and I repeat, NEVER see 15 losing spins in a row. 6 or 7 was rare but now, 15 consecutive losing spins is a frequent occurrence.

How is that losing sessions 95% of the time, bust you out in minutes with only a few sessions here and there where your balance fluctuates? And even then it won’t be by much.

If the game was truly pulling random results, balances would fluctuate all the time but no, a losing session seems to pull all the results from hell and nothing will change it.

There’s not even a 0.0001% chance that the game is random. There really isn’t and anyone who has put enough spins through it will say the same.

You can literally debunk this statement by doing no more involved detective work than..... reading this thread.

Right from the off, from the earliest days of its launch, Bonanza was ripping some folks a new arsehole, who were swearing off it within days or weeks of its release because it was playing so badly for them.

No need to take my word for it, just read their words, they are still there in this very thread!

 

[snorky510238]

I can’t check but I highly, highly doubt that I ever had a month in the first 5 years of playing Bonanza, where my rtp was below 94% and it was probably never even that low.

Yet since April ‘21, I could and have posted rtp’s in the mid eighties. The transcript on the previous page, had consecutive months where my rtp was 88, 76 and 86%. With a lifetime of 84%.

That qualifies as blatantly bloody obvious that something is wrong and the game isn’t fit for purpose but still people are prepared to defend it to the hilt. Beggars belief, it really does.

 

[snorky510238]

You can literally debunk this statement by doing no more involved detective work than..... reading this thread.

Right from the off, from the earliest days of its launch, Bonanza was ripping some folks a new arsehole, who were swearing off it within days or weeks of its release because it was playing so badly for them.

No need to take my word for it, just read their words, they are still there in this very thread!

Can’t see a single post where anybody has posted their rtp. Did only read 15 pages though tbf.

 

[mack341]

I'm struggling to understand why somebody, who rarely if ever plays said game, is prepared to defend it to the hilt against people that have played it much more and noticed a big drop off the last year or so?

I'd go as far to say if BTG/evo haven't pruned the maths to increase profitability for themselves and the casino, I'm pele!

 

[sufferinsilence]

The slot was "promoted" as a wagering slot in its earlier days (still?) but I've never seen it performing that way for me. It's always been bonus or bust.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I can’t check but I highly, highly doubt that I ever had a month in the first 5 years of playing Bonanza, where my rtp was below 94% and it was probably never even that low.

Yet since April ‘21, I could and have posted rtp’s in the mid eighties. The transcript on the previous page, had consecutive months where my rtp was 88, 76 and 86%. With a lifetime of 84%.

That qualifies as blatantly bloody obvious that something is wrong and the game isn’t fit for purpose but still people are prepared to defend it to the hilt. Beggars belief, it really does.

How many spins made up those RTPs for each of those three months, and what number of spins does that lifetime total represent?

RTP matters, of course it does - (ultimately RTP is everything, which is why I was banging the drum on my old YT channel about it when VS first started dropping to 94% maths models, and here at CM, and copping some flak in the process by folks telling me 'It's only 2% I'll never notice it's no big deal', I'll let history be the judge of who called that one right) - but it needs to be over a statistically significant spin sample.

76% is really low, especially for a game with as much RTP in its basegame as Bonanza, and a 1/3.6 hit rate (or whatever it is, something very close to that anyway), I'd honestly be surprised if that 76% represented much over 1000 spins.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm struggling to understand why somebody, who rarely if ever plays said game, is prepared to defend it to the hilt against people that have played it much more and noticed a big drop off the last year or so?

I'd go as far to say if BTG/evo haven't pruned the maths to increase profitability for themselves and the casino, I'm pele!

View attachment 191286

I just don't have a high patience threshold for people presenting opinion as facts, and feelings as evidence. As I noted above, I was trying to sound the alarm bells over VS deciding to help themselves to a 50% increase in their house edge (which is what a drop from 96% RTP to 94% RTP represents) years ago, and was met with a rather blasé response from many folks here at CM who said that it wasn't a big deal and they'd never notice and that I should stop making a fuss over it.

I also went to the time and trouble to back my assertions up with statistics, real evidence, the maths behind what I was saying.

I remain happy to be proved wrong about Bonanza, I have no skin in the game with regards to the slot itself or BTG, but the burden of proof remains with those who are calling foul, especially if we're going into the realms of Bonanza not making its stated RTP, because then we're talking about some heavy accusations.

 

[goatwack]

I just don't have a high patience threshold for people presenting opinion as facts, and feelings as evidence. As I noted above, I was trying to sound the alarm bells over VS deciding to help themselves to a 50% increase in their house edge (which is what a drop from 96% RTP to 94% RTP represents) years ago, and was met with a rather blasé response from many folks here at CM who said that it wasn't a big deal and they'd never notice and that I should stop making a fuss over it.

I also went to the time and trouble to back my assertions up with statistics, real evidence, the maths behind what I was saying.

I remain happy to be proved wrong about Bonanza, I have no skin in the game with regards to the slot itself or BTG, but the burden of proof remains with those who are calling foul, especially if we're going into the realms of Bonanza not making its stated RTP, because then we're talking about some heavy accusations.

I'm not sure how strawmanning about a separate issue, in regards to RTP-reductions affecting playtime, has any bearing about how Bonanza has noticeably changed its gameplay post-Evo takeover. I'm also certain the reduction in playtime this caused was not dismissed by many, and widely acknowledged as being hugely detrimental.

The RTP Calculator was introduced, and the crowds gasped, and that was that

And yet, when it comes to Bonanza, what 'facts' are there to speak of, other than the number advertized by BTG themselves?

How can someone criticized for calling out Bonanza's not making its stated RTP, if it's actually.....not making its stated RTP? BTG and companies of their 'repute' can't continue to hide behind fantastical imaginings that no consumer ever witnesses, without any form of accountability. That's false advertizing, never mind outright fraudulent.

All the while, they continue to butcher the original game, and it seemingly shows. Having the safety of hiding behind 'millions of spins' and 'stated RTP' is all the excuse Evo needed to make amendments, because after all, punters will play it regardless

 

[mack341]

I just don't have a high patience threshold for people presenting opinion as facts, and feelings as evidence. As I noted above, I was trying to sound the alarm bells over VS deciding to help themselves to a 50% increase in their house edge (which is what a drop from 96% RTP to 94% RTP represents) years ago, and was met with a rather blasé response from many folks here at CM who said that it wasn't a big deal and they'd never notice and that I should stop making a fuss over it.

I also went to the time and trouble to back my assertions up with statistics, real evidence, the maths behind what I was saying.

I remain happy to be proved wrong about Bonanza, I have no skin in the game with regards to the slot itself or BTG, but the burden of proof remains with those who are calling foul, especially if we're going into the realms of Bonanza not making its stated RTP, because then we're talking about some heavy accusations.

I was happy you made those posts re RTP.

No one even knows when or how often the ukgc demands to see all the figures and proof rtp is being met, I seem to remember when coral were misadvertising rtp on some of their games, and the the ukgc were informed, their minion's response was decidedly 'meh'.

I played bonanza about 6mths after its release, I don't remember 3-4 [or less] rows dominating the first reel as much as they do now, but short of time travel I cannot prove anything in this regard.

And any decent wins it gives you it definitely 'adjusts' the reels to take it back as quick as possible, the maths must be so complex it's obviously not confident of retrieving losses through longer term ebb and flow, give you a bit of an extended run that you kind of expect from a 'random' game rtp tested to billions of spins.