beware PKR.com

[Snake Eyes]

This thread is pointless because it seems the pair of you have descended into a LAUGHABLE (Is that the word of the Week or something?) attempt to send me up as crank.

We're trying to send you up as a crank?

You've accused a poker room of being rigged without a shred of evidence (still happy to read anything you've got, by the way).

You've accused them of lying about having a licence from the UKGC, when it is clearly displayed on their site

You've then accused fatshaft and I of working for PKR because we disagree with you (oh no, sorry, you did nothing of the sort ) and actually deal in facts, and then said we're the ones taking part in 'petty attacks'

You've then brought the Tokwiro scandal into this discussion when it is completely irrelevant.

I think you're doing a pretty good job of the whole crank thing yourself without anyone else's help.

 

[vinylweatherman]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The link from the UK Gambling Commision text (click on 'licensed') on their footer takes you through to an explanation of what is licensed, they also display the Alderney logo.

So now that we've got that mis-statement out of the way, why is it rigged? What stats do you have to back this up other than you're losing?

The link works, but here is the source of the confusion. From PKR

Licensing & Regulation


PKR Technologies Limited is the software developer that powers PKR and is the only online poker software developer anywhere to be licensed by the UK Government. To view our UK Remote Operating License, please click

This is ambiguous. A "remote operating license" is not quite what they have, they have a licence to develop, install, and amend the poker software in use at PKR POKER. If you do not read the earlier sentence, and interpret it as applying as an explanation of the "remote operating license", it is easy to think they mean the licence is for the GAMING "operating", rather than just the software.

None of this is any help to Topoor, as this only covers the poker SOFTWARE, so all discussions about their GAMING having dual regulation can cease, as it seems it is all regulated by the AGCC.

If anyone, however, believed the poker SOFTWARE to be "rigged", then the UK Gambling Commission most certainly WOULD be a place to complain to, provided you have enough evidence to back the claim up, such as a statistically significant sample. Given the scandals at AP and Ultimate, this kind of evidence will no longer be dismissed as the rantings of a losing player - this is the damage that the aforementioned pair of scandals have done to the integrity of the poker industry, and the fact that these operators went to great lengths to deny anything, and stuck to it until it was dragged out of them, will mean that denials by operators in the future are less likely to be taken at face value.

 

[lots0]

You've accused them of lying about having a licence from the UKGC, when it is clearly displayed on their site

No your wrong, pkr.com is NOT licensed in the UK.

Obviously the misleading information that pkr.com put up on their main page is doing just what pkr.com wanted. Players like Snake eyes seem to think they are licensed by the UK Gaming Commission, I wonder how many other players have been duped like this?

The FACT that they put a link that intends to mislead players into FALSELY believing that pkr.com is licensed by the UK Gaming Commission, makes pkr.com a Rogue, in my opinion. Only a Rogue Poker Room would claim to be licensed when in FACT they are NOT Licensed.

Intentionally misleading players is a serious offense..

As we all know, weather the card room playing is rigged or not can go back and forth for a very long time with both sides trying to shoot down the other (see the threads about absolute poker cheating scandal). Without a large amount of data from the poker room itself, it is almost impossible to PROVE a poker room is cheating.

However, the FACT that pkr.com is so willing to mislead players into thinking they are licensed by the UK Gaming Commission, when in FACT they are not, makes Rusty's accusations much more plausible and believable.

The link at the bottom of pkr.com main page is misleading - PKR.com is NOT licensed by UK Gaming Commission.

Now if you folks want to play at a room that is more than willing to mislead players like that, is totally up to you...

But don't try to blow off such a serious breach of player trust as nothing...

The FACT pkr.com put up that misleading text and link means these people at PKR.com are willing to lie to get your business... If they are willing to lie to get your business, I wonder what they would do to get your money???

 

[Snake Eyes]

However, the FACT that pkr.com is so willing to mislead players into thinking they are licensed by the UK Gaming Commission, when in FACT they are not, makes Rusty's accusations much more plausible and believable.

Complete nonsense. I don't even know where to begin with such a statement.

As we all know, weather the card room playing is rigged or not can go back and forth for a very long time with both sides trying to shoot down the other (see the threads about absolute poker cheating scandal). Without a large amount of data from the poker room itself, it is almost impossible to PROVE a poker room is cheating.

Quite why the Absolute Poker situation keeps getting brought up here is beyond me. That was nothing to do with the poker room (read; RNG) being 'rigged'.

The point is, the OP has provided absolutely no evidence to his claim. Therefore I think i'm well within my rights to shoot him down. As i've repeatedly said, if he provides any evidence, i'll be happy to read it.

 

[lots0]

Complete nonsense. I don't even know where to begin with such a statement.

Of course you don't have a response or argument, simply because I am right.

PKR.com is misleading players, no doubt about it.
The "Proof" is right on their main page for anyone to see.

The deception is so obvious, once it is pointed out....

So if I am wrong, where is PKR's UKGC License? They claim they are licensed...

Licensed by the UK Gambling Commission

source: xxhttp://www.pkr.com/

That quote from PKR's main page says it all....
Except for the FACT PKR is NOT licensed by the UK Gambling Commission.

With deceptions like that, who needs to look at their software to decide if these guys are on the level (why waste the time)... PKR's attempted deception of players says it all.

Why bring up Absolute Poker... Why not bring them up?
Absolute Poker is a great example of what online poker rooms can get away with...
But you know what? As bad as Absolute Poker is, I don't remember them claiming to be licensed in a jurisdiction where they were in fact NOT licensed.

If PKR.com were so honest and not trying to mislead players, why don't they just say that have a license to develop software from UKGC? Instead of trying to make people believe their Poker Room is licensed by the UKGC, when it is in fact NOT licensed by that agency.

 

[fatshaft]

Have a safe journey back to Toy town

I'll take your insulting respone to mean you have absolutely no evidence to support your outrageous claims.

Now that we've established that fact, can we get back to dealing with rogue poker rooms, as opposed to ones where a player is simply a bad loser/bad player and can't handle the fact?

Like your posts in the casino bonus thread for PKR, all you do is distract attention from those who need it, like AP and UB. Out the rogues, stop wasting time with bad beat stories.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Of course you don't have a response or argument, simply because I am right.

Yep, keep telling yourself that. Seeing as you seem to rate the UKGC so highly, you should be pretty pleased that their software was created under such a jurisdiction.

Either way, i'm not wasting anymore of my time posting on this thread when neither you or Rusty have anything more than bizarre '2+2=500' claims to prove that PKR is rigged, and are doing nothing more than trying to deflect attention away from that fact. Quite why you expect the likes of fatshaft and I to try and prove that PKR isn't fixed, when its the two of you making these outlandish claims that it is, really is beyond me.

 

[lots0]

So misleading players is OK with you?

You don't think that PKR.com should be considered a Rogue for trying to get players to believe their poker room is licensed by the UKGC? When it is in fact NOT licensed by the UKGC...

So it is OK, that PKR.com is deceitful about being licensed, we should believe the games they run are honest...

You want us to just turn a blind eye to PKR.com because there is no hard evidence. (Again, there will never be any 'hard' evidence unless PKR.com releases it themselves - That is a fact Absolute Poker taught us)


If PKR.com is not a Rogue they are sure acting like one... And as far as I am concerned they are headed for my sites Casino Rogue Hall of shame for attempting to mislead players (I won't even get into the non-payment issues that PKR.com seems to be having at the moment...)

I'll take your insulting respone to mean you have absolutely no evidence to support your outrageous claims.

Now that we've established that fact, can we get back to dealing with rogue poker rooms, as opposed to ones where a player is simply a bad loser/bad player and can't handle the fact?

Like your posts in the casino bonus thread for PKR, all you do is distract attention from those who need it, like AP and UB. Out the rogues, stop wasting time with bad beat stories.

Yo Snake eyes.
I never claimed PKR.com was cheating... I said they mislead players and the proof is on the main page of PKR's website...I also said that any poker room that misleads players is more likely to cheat players... and that is a fact.

No one asked you to defend PKR (or did they?).

Like Rusty said... You want to play there, by all means go ahead.

But other players should know that PKR is very very lose with the truth and that their poker room is NOT licensed by UKGC.

Seeing as you seem to rate the UKGC so highly, you should be pretty pleased that their software was created under such a jurisdiction.

I never said I "rated" the UKGC highly, lowly or any other way.

What I said was that PKR is misleading people into believing their poker room is licensed by the UKGC when in fact it is NOT.

If you don't believe misleading players is not the action of a Rogue Poker Room... What will it take to convince you... A notarized confession from the owner??

 

[Rusty]

"Entitled to shoot me down" What an arrogant and misguided comment.

All you and Fatshaft have continued to do is repeat the same misinformation, make personal attacks and demand proof that it is rigged.
If it is not rigged where is your proof?
Are we to assume that all sites are not rigged in any way and anybody who suspects otherwise is laughable?
That is the extent of your argument after all
Forgive me if I do not feel shot down as far as I am concerned you are firing blanks.

I'll take your insulting respone to mean you have absolutely no evidence to support your outrageous claims.

Now that we've established that fact, can we get back to dealing with rogue poker rooms, as opposed to ones where a player is simply a bad loser/bad player and can't handle the fact?

I thought it was quite witty, something that is lacking in any of your posts.
If anybody is guilty of being insulting here it is you with your disrespectful remarks that you somehow confuse as fact.
But then you come across as a very conceited individual so I should not be surprised you have such a inflated opinion of yourself.

 

[maxd]

Just a word of warning guys: if this thread turns into an exchange of insults we'll shut it down. As I see it you both have good points to make but you're letting your tempers get in the way.

Step back for a few minutes, take a few deep breaths, think of the gaming issues here and I'm sure we'll be fine.

 

[fatshaft]

"Entitled to shoot me down" What an arrogant and misguided comment.

All you and Fatshaft have continued to do is repeat the same misinformation, make personal attacks and demand proof that it is rigged.

What misinformation? That PKR ARE licensed by the UKGC? That is a fact whether you like it or admit it or not. They don't claim to be regulated by them, only that they have a license, a claim that is 100% true.

If it is not rigged where is your proof?

The burden of proof is on you, you are the one claiming that their RNG is somehow defective. Innocent until proven guilty is the standard in this country, and most civilised societies, so let's have your proof.

Are we to assume that all sites are not rigged in any way and anybody who suspects otherwise is laughable?

We should assume so yes, but be wary that this may not be the case. Other than Planet Poker, there has not been a single case ever of a defective RNG, and in their case it was not a malicious defect, but unintentionally weak programming. There was no attempt to favour one player over another, they simply didn't build a good enough product.

Like UB/AP has shown, bring the EVIDENCE and people will listen, however there have been thousands of losing players try to claim that a site is fixed to cover up their bad results, as yet not a single one has ever provided evidence to back up those claims.

That is the extent of your argument after all

Nope, my (and Snake's) argument is you have no evidence to support your outlandish claims.

Forgive me if I do not feel shot down as far as I am concerned you are firing blanks.

Give us something tangible rather than hearsay then?

I'll take your insulting respone to mean you have absolutely no evidence to support your outrageous claims.

Now that we've established that fact, can we get back to dealing with rogue poker rooms, as opposed to ones where a player is simply a bad loser/bad player and can't handle the fact?

I thought it was quite witty, something that is lacking in any of your posts.

Really? I think accusing a business worth north of 50m of dishonesty was a pretty serious business, sorry if I misunderstood and should be making light of the matter, I imagine those at PKR do not share your hilarity.

If anybody is guilty of being insulting here it is you with your disrespectful remarks that you somehow confuse as fact.

Such as? Accusing your claims of being tin foil hat-ish are not disrespectful imo, you're just spouting the same conspiracy theory nonsense that we've all heard a million times before, give us evidence like those who first outed the UB/AP cheaters and I'm all ears, but so far you've said nothing but attack myself and Snake Eyes for being somehow conected to PKR. It appears you see a conspiracy round every corner.

But then you come across as a very conceited individual so I should not be surprised you have such a inflated opinion of yourself.

I'm not sure where in any of my posts I've posted any comment on myself, so why you would feel this way is baffling.




Now that all that has been said, can we get back to some evidence of a fixed RNG at PKR please?

Can we have:

* The relevant stats to back up your claim
* What they have fixed?
* Why they have fixed it?
* Why you would be on the wrong side of this fix?

 

[fatshaft]

Playing the $12.5k Guarantee last night, we're down to 17, and it's the first hand after the third break, I'm SB and about 14th in chips, BB is last at the moment and is effectively all-in on his blind. Table chip leader mini-raises which virtually puts me all-in and covers the BB.

I wake up with QQ, so I push, BB and CL quickly call, CL has AA, and the BB has KK

BB hits a King and I go out 17th.

Must be fixed

Playing the same tourney again last night, about 45 minutes in and I'm down to 1700ish chips, blinds are 50/100 and I pick up AA utg. I limp hoping for a back raise but get one caller, plus the SB completes.

Flop is raggy but two hearts (I don't have the Ace-heart), I bet out 300ish and limp-caller calls, SB pushes and I rr all-in, and other player also calls. They turn over Q4 and 57 of hearts, turn is a heart.

It's all fixed.

 

[lots0]

What misinformation? That PKR ARE licensed by the UKGC? That is a fact whether you like it or admit it or not. They don't claim to be regulated by them, only that they have a license, a claim that is 100% true.

No that claim is NOT true. PKR.com is not licensed to operate by the UKGC.
If they are licensed, where is the license? Just show me a URL where PKR.com is a licensed Poker Room by the UKGC... It sure is not the link PKR.com puts up on its main page. That is a license to develop software, not a license to operate in the UK... Those are two very different things.

Real simple to prove me wrong and you right, just show us all the license from the UKGC for PKR.com to operate their poker room in the UK.

 

[fatshaft]

No that claim is NOT true. PKR.com is not licensed to operate by the UKGC.
If they are licensed, where is the license? Just show me a URL where PKR.com is a licensed Poker Room by the UKGC... It sure is not the link PKR.com puts up on its main page. That is a license to develop software, not a license to operate in the UK... Those are two very different things.

Real simple to prove me wrong and you right, just show us all the license from the UKGC for PKR.com to operate their poker room in the UK

You are 100% correct, which is exactly what I've been saying, nowhere have I said they are regulated by the UKGC, it just seems that you and Rosty read something that isn't there because you are so obsessed with trying to blacken the name of PKR and anyone who doesn;t agree with your viewpoint.

They ARE licensed by the UKGC, they are NOT regulated by them. They don't claim anywhere to be licensed to operate by the UKGC. There is nothing false about their claim whatsoever, they even state when you click through the link at the very top of the page....

PKR Technologies Limited is the software developer that powers PKR and is the only online poker software developer anywhere to be licensed by the UK Government. To view our UK Remote Operating License, please click here.

PKR is licensed and regulated by The Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC).

Glad you get it now though.

 

[lots0]

Glad you get it now though.

Oh ya, I get it now...

When a site says "Licensed by the UKGC" on their main page, it means to just about everybody that sees it, that the site is claiming to be licensed to operate by the UKGC.

Why not just put Licensed by the AGCC on their main page instead of implying they are licensed by the UKGC...

Maybe because the UKGC is trusted by most players...

Placing that link on their page the way PKR.com did, is an obvious attempt to deceive players.

 

[efcgenius]

I found the comments on this site very disturbing regarding PKR displaying a misleading statement at the bottom of their webpage. There is nothing more important in life than financial security for both yourself and your children, after reading this forum I will never ever play for real money on PKR.

And as for the 2 guys who are defending this kind of mis-statement you should be ashamed of yourself, Imagine if you lost $10,000 on PKR and then found out they were misleading you about being regulated by the UKGC, would you want your money back - go figure.

They claim to be licensed by the UKGC so how many would question if its regulated by them too, and do people actually know the difference, this is very naughty makes me think PKR is not legitimate in my opinion.

 

[Snake Eyes]

And as for the 2 guys who are defending this kind of mis-statement you should be ashamed of yourself, Imagine if you lost $10,000 on PKR and then found out they were misleading you about being regulated by the UKGC, would you want your money back - go figure.

I'm not getting involved in this discussion any further, but seeing as this is addressed at me, I feel the need to respond;

If I lost $10,000 there, it would be because I chose to gamble such money there. I would want my money back, but I don't see any reason why I think I might be entitled to it. I don't feel misled about them being regulated by the UKGC, because they're not, and I never thought they were. If you don't feel your money is secure playing at PKR, then don't play there - you don't have any particular reason to show why that might be the case though.

Thanks for telling me I should be ashamed of myself because I actually read up on a site before I play there though.

 

[lots0]

Snake eyes you are acting very much like a PKR.com shill.

There are a LOT of very good reasons NOT to play at PKR.com.

The fact they PKR.com is attempting to mislead players into thinking they are licensed by the UKGC when in fact they are not, is not even the worst thing that PKR.com has been doing.

How about PKR.com closing player accounts without cause and seizing monies from players?

Today I will be adding PKR.com to my sites Casino Hall of Shame Blacklist (not associated with CasinoMeister's Rogue list.)

 

[efcgenius]

Thanks for telling me I should be ashamed of myself because I actually read up on a site before I play there though.

This is my point exactly, YOU claim to read their websites carefully but the majority of people will NOT and that is whats misleading, how many people will understand the difference between licensed and regulated. If they are not regulated by the UKGC then they shopuld state this on their website its as simple as that, who exactly would back us up if they did scam our money, certainly not UKGC, you cannot defend this and nor can you state that PKR are 100% legitimate given this fact if mis-statement

This is enough to avoid playing for real money on their site for the rest of my life

 

[Snake Eyes]

Snake eyes you are acting very much like a PKR.com shill.

Yep, you got me. I'm the owner.

Anyway, this thread has become very tedious now. I'll leave you lot to it

 

[fatshaft]

I found the comments on this site very disturbing regarding PKR displaying a misleading statement at the bottom of their webpage. There is nothing more important in life than financial security for both yourself and your children,

Good advice, so why on earth would you be contemplating gambling with that future?

And as for the 2 guys who are defending this kind of mis-statement you should be ashamed of yourself, Imagine if you lost $10,000 on PKR and then found out they were misleading you about being regulated by the UKGC, would you want your money back - go figure.

Erm, no. Why would I? What difference does the regulator make? maybe it has a bearing for you, it does not come into even 0.001% of my decision whether to play on a site.

They claim to be licensed by the UKGC so how many would question if its regulated by them too, and do people actually know the difference, this is very naughty makes me think PKR is not legitimate in my opinion.

If people don;t know the difference, then who they are licensed and regulated by is redundant anyway. DUCY?

This is my point exactly, YOU claim to read their websites carefully but the majority of people will NOT and that is whats misleading, how many people will understand the difference between licensed and regulated.

...and how many care? Very very few, if they care they will read up like Snake has done, otherwise they won't.

 

[lots0]

I thought you shills were through with this thread?

It looks a like a couple shills trying to 'push down' the negative comments by adding a lot of non-related crap to the thread.

 

[fatshaft]

I thought you shills were through with this thread?

It looks a like a couple shills trying to 'push down' the negative comments by adding a lot of non-related crap to the thread.

I see, so I joined up in April 2004, preparing for the day that PKR would launch, just in case there were some tinfoil hat posts on a non-poker forum?

I guess some people just see conspiracy in everything?

 

[lots0]

The PKR.com domain name was first registered in 2000.
So maybe it is not as far fetched as you try to make it sound.

Anyway, you are defending the indefensible. Regardless of your motives.

I guess some people just see conspiracy in everything?

Ya real funny, you insinuate that I am some kind of a conspiracy nut.
Your not so veiled insult just helps to prove my point about you being a shill. (it's like shill rule #3... If you can't confuse and derail, try to discredit...)

You don't have to be a conspiracy nut to see that poker rooms like PKR are ripping off people as fast as they can.

The only reason these guys at PKR are paying off players right now (or should I say promising to pay) is because of the fact they are getting their little operation exposed in public, here at CM and at my site.

Go ahead and continue to defend PKR.com and I will continue to expose their shady/crooked actions... We both get what we want... Ain't this a great world we live in?

 

[sdaddy]

I agree these misstatements/misrepresentations by PKR are troubling and should warrant caution by players.