Betfair stole 8575.42 Euro from my Moneybookers / Skrill account

[Markus]

Hello,

In the period from 12th September 2011 to 5th October 2011 I have made several deposits to Betfair using Moneybookers, in total 1040 Euro. In the same period I have also made several withdrawals from Betfair using Moneybookers, in total 9742 Euro. At each time I have requested a withdrawal from Betfair, Betfair reviewed the withdrawal request and then successfully paid out the money to my Moneybookers account.

On 19th October 2011 Moneybookers charged back all my Betfair withdrawals of 9742 Euro back to Betfair. Moneybookers told me that they did this on behalf of Betfair. They didn't give me an explanation why they have done this and they told me I have to contact Betfair for further details. I did contact Betfair by e-mail but I didn't get any response from them.

Usually Moneybookers has a policy of not allowing chargebacks in disputes but they ignored this policy in this case without giving an conceivable explanation. In my opinion this action is illegal because at the moment the money was credited to my Moneybookers account the money became my property. If Betfair wants the money back for some reason they have to file a dispute against me. Furthermore at the time they did the chargeback (19th October 2011) I had only funds on my Moneybookers account that were unrelated to Betfair, because I have already paid out all my Betfair winnings from Moneybookers to my bank account.

In the final response from Moneybookers they justified thier action by claiming that I might violated any law or regulation or I might breached any of Moneybookers Terms of Use. But they didn't told me what exactly it is that I have violated or breached and what evidence they have. This is what Moneybookers wrote me:

Dear Mr. L.,

We are contacting you in regards to the complaint you have recently filed with us about our decision to reverse transactions related to your Betfair winnings.

Firstly, we would like to thank you for your patience with us while we have been considering your complaint as we recognize the importance of the issue and fully understand your frustration. Having carefully investigated your case we are hereby submitting our Final response, as in case you decide to refer your complaint to our regulator (Financial Services Authority) and their specialized complaints handling unit (Financial Ombudsman Service), you will be requested to provide such. Further details on escalation and how your complaint will be handled are available below as well as in the copy of our complaints handling procedure sent to you in our previous email.

Going forward, we would like to confirm a transaction for the amount of 9742.00 EUR has been manually processed by our team on 19 Oct 2011 (ID 514854019) and the respective amount has been credited to the account of Betfair. Our decision and the adjoining actions lay on the following grounds, assumed valid under, but not limited to the following circumstances:

* a violation of any law or regulation that is applicable to your use of Moneybookers services
* breach of any of Moneybookers' Terms of Use

In corroboration of the above, please be kindly asked to refer to sections 11. Prohibited Transactions applicable in the case at hand.

"11. Prohibited Transactions
11.1. It is strictly forbidden to send or receive payments as consideration for the sale or supply of:

• Tobacco products
• Prescription drugs
• Drugs and drug paraphernalia
• Firearms or ammunition
• Weapons and knives
• Satellite and cable TV descramblers
• Pornography
• Government IDs and licences including replicas and novelty items
• Unlicensed lotteries or gambling services
• Prepaid debit cards or other stored value cards that are not associated with a particular merchant and are not limited to purchases of particular products or services
• Multi-level marketing, pyramid selling or ponzi schemes, matrix programmes or other “get rich quick” schemes or high yield investment programmes
• Goods or services that infringe the intellectual property rights of a third party.

Moneybookers reserves the right to add, at its sole discretion, categories of prohibited transactions by adding such categories either to these Terms of Use or an acceptable use policy published on the Website.

11.2. It is strictly forbidden to make payments to or to receive payments from persons or entities offering illegal gambling services, including (but not limited to) illegal sports betting, casino games and poker games. We may suspend or terminate your Moneybookers Account at any time or refuse to execute or reverse a transaction if we believe that you directly or indirectly use or have used your Moneybookers Account for or in connection with illegal gambling transactions. Countries where online gambling is illegal include the United States of America, Turkey, China, Malaysia and Israel. This list is not exhaustive and it is your responsibility to ensure that you do not use our services for transactions that may be considered illegal in your jurisdiction.

11.3. You may not use Moneybookers’ services if you are residing in any of the following countries: Afghanistan, Cuba, Iran, Myanmar, Nigeria, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Syria or Yemen. This list is not exhaustive and we may in our sole discretion decide to discontinue or restrict our services in other countries at any time and without prior notice. We reserve the right to suspend or terminate your Moneybookers Account at any time if we reasonably believe to be required to do so by law or in order to comply with recommendations issued by a relevant government authority or recognised body for the prevention of financial crime.

11.4. It is strictly forbidden to use your Moneybookers Account for any illegal purposes including but not limited to fraud and money laundering. Moneybookers will report any suspicious activity to the relevant law enforcement agency. You are prohibited from using your Moneybookers Account in an attempt to abuse, exploit or circumvent the usage restrictions imposed by a merchant on the services it provides.

11.5. You may only accept payments for certain categories of business after the approval by Moneybookers in its sole discretion. Such business categories include but are not limited to:

• money exchange or remittance businesses, including but not limited to bureaux de change, currency exchanges and purchase of travel money;
• the collection of any form of donations or payments to charitable or not-for-profit organisations;
• dealing in natural resources such as jewels, precious metals or stones;
• the sale or supply of alcoholic beverages; or
• the sale of supply of dietary supplements and alternative health products;
• any other business category published in an Acceptable Use Policy on the Website;

In case you are in doubt whether your business falls under any of the above categories, you must contact Customer Service. Moneybookers reserves the right to add, at its sole discretion, business categories requiring approval by adding such categories either to these Terms of Use or an acceptable use policy published on the Website.

11.6. If you conduct or attempt to conduct any transaction in violation of the prohibitions contained in this section 11 or without the necessary approval under section 11.5, we reserve the right to:

• reverse the transaction; and/or
• close or suspend your Account; and/or
• report the transaction to the relevant law enforcement agency; and/or
• claim damages from you; and
• charge you an administration fee of up to 150 EUR in case we apply any of the above.

11.7. It is your and not Moneybookers’ responsibility to ensure that you only send payments to or receive payments from persons or entities for the sale or supply of goods and services that you may provide or receive in compliance with any applicable laws and regulations. The mere fact that a person or entity accepts payments through Moneybookers is not an indication of the legality of the supply or provision of their goods and services. If you are in doubt as to the legality of a supply or purchase, you should not continue with your payment."

Please note that due to compliance restrictions applied on Moneybookers, we will not be able to provide you with additional details about our decision to reverse the mentioned amount, however, you should feel invited to contact the respective merchant and enquire with them directly.

We realize that our response is likely to come as a disappointment to you and that this is not the outcome you have been expecting. Still, we hope you will understand our position on this issue as we have acted in full compliance with our published policies. In case you think that you have not been treated fairly or that we have violated our mutual contract in any way, you should feel free to contact any official authorities/third parties and escalate the issue as you consider appropriate, including referring your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. This would depend on the nature of the complaint and whether within the rules of the Service the person making the complaint is "eligible" to refer the matter to the Ombudsman (within the eligible time frame of 6 months set by them). The Ombudsman Service exists to provide independent adjudication and investigation will be undertaken prior to making a decision about outstanding disputes. The Ombudsman can be contacted direct at the following address:

Financial Ombudsman Service
PO Box 4
South Quay Plaza
183 Marsh Wall
London
E14 9SR

Telephone: 0845 080 1800
Switchboard: 020 7964 1000
Main Fax: 020 7964 1001

E-mail address: [email protected]

We hope this information has been useful for your and kindly apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Regards,

Yavor
Complaints Department
Moneybookers.com

Betfair already paid 1166.58 Euro back to me, after I have argued with Moneybookers, that if Betfair declare all my bets invalid then, if any, only my winnings, i.e. the difference between deposits (1040 Euro) and withdrawals (9742 Euro) can be confiscated, but not my deposits as well. However I still demanding that Moneybookers restores the remaining 8575.42 Euro, because I have rightfully won this amount and charging back my winnings by Moneybookers was wrong in the first place.

I'm planing to use the Financial Ombudsman Service.
Any advices from Casinomeister members would be very much appreciated!

 

[deucebag]

Have you asked Betfair why they wanted this money charged back? Or do you already know?

 

[Markus]

Have you asked Betfair why they wanted this money charged back? Or do you already know?

Yes, I have wrote an e-mail to their support and asked them why they charged back my money. No response. To be honest I do not expect any useful answer anyway, because of their "speak to the hand" attitude. I did know they are roguish, shame on me that I have played there. But I didn't expected that they would go this far and steal money from my Moneybookers account.

 

[jetset]

This is not the first time that Betfair has confiscated winnings it has already paid out to a player through an independent e-cash processing entity (there's another thread here concerning a Portuguese player who had a large amount of money withdrawn from his bank account at the behest of Betfair)

I find this sort of situation, where a betting company can apparently simply demand that money in a player's private bank or e-cash account he withdrawn and paid to it, of great concern on fairness, security and privacy levels, and yet nothing seems to happen to the likes of Betfair when they pull this sort of autocratic stunt.

Usually the player is the last person to know about the withdrawal from his account, and is not given the opportunity to contest the issue before his cash is taken.

Surely this cannot be right?

Betfair seems to be going from bad to worse...hopefully when Breon Corcoran - an experienced online gambling exec - takes over as CEO he will review the manner in which this company has been operating lately.

 

[chayton]

Forgive me if I'm being dense, but reading the response from Moneybookers, it sounds like it's them who returned the money to the casino because of this:

"11. Prohibited Transactions
11.1. It is strictly forbidden to send or receive payments as consideration for the sale or supply of:
.....
• Unlicensed lotteries or gambling services

 

[bb28]

Forgive me if I'm being dense, but reading the response from Moneybookers, it sounds like it's them who returned the money to the casino because of this:

But yet it goes on to detail what countries that it is prohibited in, so maybe this doesn't apply in this instance??

"Countries where online gambling is illegal include the United States of America, Turkey, China, Malaysia and Israel. This list is not exhaustive and it is your responsibility to ensure that you do not use our services for transactions that may be considered illegal in your jurisdiction.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Looks like a cover up. The ONLY item that might be applicable is the receipt of money from an "illegal operation", thus Moneybookers are implying that Betfair are an "unlicensed illegal gambling operation". The email from Moneybookers tries to make out it was they who authorised this transaction under their own terms of use, but this is bullshit.

Keep that email, and use it in your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman, since this email gives the official "on the record" reason for their decision, and it's bollocks. The Ombudsman will investigate based on what Moneybookers gave you as an explanation, and when they find out that it was really Betfair that demanded the money back, and Moneybookers just went ahead and did it based solely on their word, there could be a number of regulation breaches, and this could leave the way wide open for you to sue Moneybookers for the return of the funds and damages, not Betfair.

You could also take this complaint to the media, and make the FSA look "stupid" in allowing this loophole to exist and be used.

The fact that the money taken was NOT the money actually paid in by Betfair would further strengthen your case.

They could NOT have done this so easily with a BANK. The ONLY reason they got away with it with the Portuguese player was that the actual money they had paid in was still there, but had the player moved it, the bank would have refused to return it, and the player could then have ditched that account so that it could never be raided again.

You could also sue Betfair, and they would have to show that you violated the terms as stated, not some "spirit". The fact that they approved these withdrawals, and later changed their mind considerably weakens their case, and they would have to then show that you deceived them into paying in the first place.

Betfair was even threatening to take PLAYERS to court unless they paid back money that had been moved out of their reach when they tried to take it back. It was a bluff, as clearly Betfair didn't want this affair to get anywhere near a court in case a judgment went against them, and opened the proverbial floodgates.

You may have to take this all the way, Financial Ombudsman, FSA, and the court. Betfair or Moneybookers may only take this seriously when a summons from the court arrives, at which point they are likely to want to negotiate out of court to ensure the case is never tried.

The UK banks were caving in at the last minute for years over the bank charges issue, and it had to be FORCED to court by one of the regulators, which unfortunately ended up giving the banks a better result than they had feared, and didn't really help the consumer.

Whilst Moneybookers isn't a bank, it still has a primary obligation to protect the funds in it's care, and if it goes against it's own policy that transactions are final once made, it needs to demonstrate a damn good reason for it.


For the rest of us, it is a demonstration of how RISKY it is to leave our money in the long term care of these eWallets, and in terms of this kind of incident, Moneybookers seems to be the worst.

It is interesting to note that Moneybookers itself promotes a few "illegal/unlicensed gambling operations", as you can deposit into Virtual Group casinos from it, and they do not check the licensing status of casinos they accept as merchants. They also let criminals sign up as "fake merchants" through lack of proper checks, which is how those completely fake casinos (such as Ministering Angel) manage to accept so called "reputable" deposit options in their brief existence before they get busted.

 

[KasinoKing]

I'm planing to use the Financial Ombudsman Service.
Any advices from Casinomeister members would be very much appreciated!

I have several comments:

a) Typical Betfair They did it before and they are doing it again. I'm sorry Markus, but anyone who continues to patronise this ROGUED company is playing with fire and so should not too surprised when this type of shit happens.

b) Typical MoneyBookers When I had €880 stolen from my MB account and reported it within a few hours they apparently could NOT get the money back from the merchant it went to. But when Betfair calls - they jump

c) I don't know if the Ombudsman Service can help - but if they do it will take at least 3 to 4 months - so you'll have to be patient.
I submitted my compliant to them; after 2 weeks I got a reply saying they are very busy and it could take up to 12 more weeks to look at my case. So I would start the process ASAP if I were you.

KK

 

[Mousey]

We're all well aware that Betfair lost its collective sanity some months ago.

We have no idea what or why (if they need a reason) to behave as they have, but I do believe, even if they think you've commited fraud, that they owe you some sort of explaination. Moneybookers are proving themselves very pliable as far as chargeback by the casinos, but give absolutely no consideration to their lowly users -- players. And their 'form letter' quoting their T&C is a slap in face -- especially considering the amount of money removed from the player's MB account.

As Vinyl has already stated, situations like this serve as strong warnings to all who may leave funds lying about online. (This is, of course, the main reason players HAVE an ewallet, but it seems too easy for funds to be stolen by hackers and/or confiscated by casinos that 'change their mind'.)

To the OP: please keep safe any and all correspondence, account history at MB, and even your deposit/withdraw history at Betfair would be excellent, also. I would strongly suggest that you do contact the ombudsman immediately with all pertinent information.

I wish you luck, and would like to see updates should you decide to take this further.

 

[threescatters]

Can only echo whats been said here already. Disgusting by both Betfair and Skrill/Moneybookers. Please take this further OP

 

[dazlazz]

They should call it moneyscammers.com (I would avoid them like the plague) - Markus you could try contacting the FSA which regulates them - and that might get a response...

Regards,

Daz

 

[vinylweatherman]

They should call it moneyscammers.com (I would avoid them like the plague) - Markus you could try contacting the FSA which regulates them - and that might get a response...

Regards,

Daz

The FSA will look at the regulatory implications, but they do NOT help individuals get redress, this is the job of the Ombudsman.

It may be possible to take them to court in the user's own country, as there are EU rules designed to stop businesses effectively throttling consumer rights through dictating a specific EU country that action has to be taken in.

The aim is not to have to go to court, but to have the summons land on the desk of those in charge at Moneybookers. This very cosy relationship they have with casinos is NOT something they are going to want dissected in open court. The OPs lawyer could easily hang Moneybookers by their own terms and conditions, since there is no provision that allows them to "charge back" monies that a legitimate merchant has forwarded to one of it's customers without there having been a SERIOUS breach of the terms, or fraud.

If it is simply a case of Betfair saying they want the money back without having to supply any kind of argument, nor allow the player to respond to the allegations, it will look very BAD in court, and could ensure ALL eWallets suffer closer scrutiny by the regulators.

The whole thing makes me wonder who is REALLY behind these "independent" eWallets, as they seem to be "in bed" with the casinos, and most started up in responce to the US situation where banks made depositing and withdrawing difficult even before UIGEA came about.

When Neteller was still in the US, it was plainly a "front" for US players to deposit and withdraw whilst bypassing the banking system. Although they referred to "merchants", and even told US and the Canadian customers that they could still make "non gambling transactions", there WERE no merchants other than those related to gambling. There was a rumour that they had ONE non-gambling merchant, a coffee house in Amsterdam, at the time, seemingly for cover in case they were accused of just being a front for casinos.

It is only recently that both Neteller and Moneybookers have branched out into the full prepayment card market, and allowed wider use of P2P for money transfer (a facility that seems to serve the purpose of giving them more reasons to lock your account and take your money).

Neteller have their Net+ card, but it really isn't fit for purpose because it can stop working for hours at a time at random, and this is NOT OK in "real world" use.

The new banking rules that do away with the traditional 3 day clearing cycle could make debit cards just as fast as eWallets for use at casinos, and as this money would go straight to a players' bank, it would be harder for an operator like Betfair to take it back provided the player uses a separate account, and uses the "fast payment system" to move the money elsewhere the minute it arrives, and only put it back on the day they intend to deposit with it.

 

[P.V.]

It's important for everyone to understand that so called e-wallets are not banks and merely a way to dispense cash, store cash to make payments to third parties. By whom, who knows. They can go bad just like OC's.

I'd like to see CM expand his service to include accredited services but this his call of course.

I don't know what's going on with the OP, if anything bad on his behalf took place but he could have taken his money and been gone. Now he has cash taken back just like if you the player did a chargeback. That's considered fraud correct?

Chargeback, take back what the difference?

Hey OP did they suggest why they took your money back, any reason??

 

[Markus]

Hey OP did they suggest why they took your money back, any reason??

No, Moneybookers refuses to give me any reason and only refers to Betfair. Betfair do not answer. There is no reason that would justifies this action, because I have not violated any rule, term, law whatsoever.

 

[mn001]

Markus,

This is off-topic, but can you please tell us what you played and how did you win etc? You seriously have no clue at all why they charged the winnings back? You played normal things and they just decided to steal back money?

On-topic, scary to know casinos can now steal back winnings from moneybookers. I'm always trying to use paypal when bookies accept it because then it will be a process of 30 days where you can state your side of the story and they state their side before anything like this happens.

 

[casinokoenig]

wow - i think i will suspend my MB now - too dangerous to get your money stolen , NOT a good buisness partner imo

 

[Jufo]

Markus,

This is off-topic, but can you please tell us what you played and how did you win etc? You seriously have no clue at all why they charged the winnings back? You played normal things and they just decided to steal back money?

I am pretty sure he knows why they took the money back, he just disagrees that it the was a justified thing to do.

 

[mn001]

I am pretty sure he knows why they took the money back, he just disagrees that it the was a justified thing to do.

Well I'm not so sure considering Betfair stole money on that bonus scam before, but player will get much better help on forums if he posts the info about how and what he plays. If he plays poker and posts his poker alias we can all see easily if it's scam from betfair or player. Or if he played on some specific odds markets (no example given by me). But if he just played slots and was lucky we all know betfair is the scammer. Hope he can give us detailed info about this.

 

[Markus]

Well I'm not so sure considering Betfair stole money on that bonus scam before, but player will get much better help on forums if he posts the info about how and what he plays. If he plays poker and posts his poker alias we can all see easily if it's scam from betfair or player. Or if he played on some specific odds markets (no example given by me). But if he just played slots and was lucky we all know betfair is the scammer. Hope he can give us detailed info about this.

I only played in the Betfair casino. I have played Blackjack, Roulette, Slots and some other games like Dice Twister and Wild Viking. I haven't done sports betting, Poker or similar things at Betfair. I exclusively played casino games. There was also no bonus involved.

 

[mn001]

I only played in the Betfair casino. I have played Blackjack, Roulette, Slots and some other games like Dice Twister and Wild Viking. I haven't done sports betting, Poker or similar things at Betfair. I exclusively played casino games. There was also no bonus involved.

Ok thanks for the info. I'm pretty sure you will get your money back if there's no scamming, "using them as a bank or money exchange service" or things like this. No way they will just steal if you played perfectly normal. Not even betfair.

BTW, you did All deposits and All withdrawals to one and same moneybookers account and that account is not blocked by moneybookers now?

 

[Markus]

BTW, you did All deposits and All withdrawals to one and same moneybookers account and that account is not blocked by moneybookers now?

Yes I used the same Moneybookers account for all deposits and all withdrawals.
My Moneybookers account was only temporarily locked for outgoing transfers, but after they have transferred the 9742 Euro back to Betfair, Moneybookers immediately unlocked my account and allowed me to continue to use Moneybookers. It is contradictory, on the one hand they imply that I would be a fraudster, because they are assuming that Betfair is correct, on the other hand they allow this supposed fraudster to continue to use Moneybookers. Today I even got an invitation for their VIP Loyalty Club.

I have submitted a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service now. I will keep posting updates about this issue.

 

[Rick Deckard]

I only played in the Betfair casino. I have played Blackjack, Roulette, Slots and some other games like Dice Twister and Wild Viking. I haven't done sports betting, Poker or similar things at Betfair. I exclusively played casino games. There was also no bonus involved.

Are you sure you didn't accept any promotional bonuses at all, since signing up and depositing at Betfair?
,

 

[Markus]

Are you sure you didn't accept any promotional bonuses at all, since signing up and depositing at Betfair?

Yes, I'm absolutly sure, that I never did claim or receive any bonus in the relevant time period from 12th September 2011 to 5th October 2011 at Betfair.

 

[questa]

Do you, in all honesty, have any idea why Betfair are annoyed at you?

Were you doing anything that might be considered 'unusual' by the majority for example.

A yes or no will suffice

 

[Nate]

Roguebet are at it again

Nate

 

[Markus]

Do you, in all honesty, have any idea why Betfair are annoyed at you?

Were you doing anything that might be considered 'unusual' by the majority for example.

A yes or no will suffice

They might not liked my play style, because I did some advantage play. However I can't be certain about the reason until Betfair tell me what the reason is. In any case I did not violate any rule whatsoever.

 

[questa]

You did some advantage play without a bonus? That's interesting, how did you manage that with a suite of -EV and zero lounge games?

I had a look at their terms, and wonder if you have been through them to check you didn't break any? They forbid, for example, bots and third party software, among other things, which other casinos don't always forbid. Probably worth a quick read.

 

[Markus]

You did some advantage play without a bonus? That's interesting, how did you manage that with a suite of -EV and zero lounge games?

I had a look at their terms, and wonder if you have been through them to check you didn't break any? They forbid, for example, bots and third party software, among other things, which other casinos don't always forbid. Probably worth a quick read.

Upon registering at Betfair I have agreed to follow these terms:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I have not violated any term from

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Period.

 

[questa]

Cool must be a mistake then.

 

[Nifty29]

I doubt that the OP is telling us the whole story. Situations like this are very rare and moneybookers must have been convinced Buttfair had a case.

However, the casino and MB should absolutely disclose to the player what term they violated. It is a basic right for an accused to at least be told what they are accused of (even if the detail needs to be kept from them to protect security processes)

It's a shame BF are rogued as we could then hear both sides of the issue.

 

[Markus]

It's a shame BF are rogued as we could then hear both sides of the issue.

How does the rogue status of Betfair stop them from replying to this thread?

 

[Nifty29]

How does the rogue status of Betfair stop them from replying to this thread?

It doesn't.

The problem is that BF (or any other casino for that matter) are not going to publicly reveal any evidence they have regarding your confiscation... and don't post here anyway AFAIK.

If you had submitted a PAB then we could all learn the truth via Max and Bryan, but alas it ain't gonna happen.

The issue of ewallets reversing funds is VERY rare and I would think BF must have provided some pretty damning evidence.

MB and BF should be telling you which rule you breached as that is only fair, but the exact evidence they have or how they obtained it is confidential and revealing it publicly would only serve the purposes of the fraudsters that are constantly lurking in the background looking for ways to avoid getting caught.

It's odd that you chose to ask about why BF aren't posting, rather than deny that you aren't telling the whole story. I'll put that down to an omission.

 

[Markus]

The problem is that BF (or any other casino for that matter) are not going to publicly reveal any evidence they have regarding your confiscation... and don't post here anyway AFAIK.

Why not? I have seen many cases here in the Complaints Forum where casinos did comment on issus that involves them.

The issue of ewallets reversing funds is VERY rare and I would think BF must have provided some pretty damning evidence.

I would also expect from Moneybookers, that they only reverse funds if there is any hard evidence. But this can't be the case, because I haven't violated any rule.

It's odd that you chose to ask about why BF aren't posting, rather than deny that you aren't telling the whole story. I'll put that down to an omission.

Everything I said is 100% correct and the truth. However I'm currently not willing to reveal all details about my advantage play, thats all, sorry. This maybe fall into "not telling the whole story".

 

[Mousey]

What bothers me so much is that his MB account was pilfered after they had paid him -- according to the OP -- "several withdrawals". So even if they eventually saw something they felt was irregular about his play or account or whatever, what took so long? Why do it after the fact? What if he'd already moved the money out of MB when Betfair did their 'chargeback' (they're making this something of a habit aren't they)? I find it confusing and really unsettling that MB just hands over $9k of a customer's monies without so much as a whimper, whatever Betfair's mystery reasoning.

(derail -- Good to see you again, Nifty! /derail)

 

[Jasminebed]

Betfair reclaimed funds from players' ewallets, and even bank accounts in the Happy Hour promo, where no terms were broke on bonus play.

Markus posted in response to a post I made about not having an advantage on house games with no bonus in another thread, implying that perfect play combined with comp points might be EV plus.

Doesn't give them an excuse, but it might give them a reason.

I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, I just thought it would be a denial of some winnings, not a confiscation endorsed by Moneybookers of past winnings.

I wish Markus all the best in persuing it. The casinos set the rules and the terms, and if you abide by them you shouldn't be penalized. Pay the player and refuse future dealings with them.

I've lost a lot of confidence in Moneybookers over this. Neteller is not available to me in Canada, and Ecocard has much higher fees.

 

[Nifty29]

Why not? I have seen many cases here in the Complaints Forum where casinos did comment on issus that involves them.

I would also expect from Moneybookers, that they only reverse funds if there is any hard evidence. But this can't be the case, because I haven't violated any rule.

Everything I said is 100% correct and the truth. However I'm currently not willing to reveal all details about my advantage play, thats all, sorry. This. maybe fall into "not telling the whole story".

I was referring to BF specifically. I'm aware that other casinos post.

The fact that you won't reveal your playing method probably explains why you lost your funds....it is obviously dodgy. I mean, if you wanted support from the members and even CM why wouldn't you just explain what you did and ask if everyone thnks it is legit? You said it was all above board after all, so why the secrecy?

The more I hear, the more I think there is more to hear. IMO we should refrain from assuming BF and MB are the bad guys until we know what the OP did.

 

[chayton]

@Markus, has Betfair closed your account?

 

[LaHutti]

I was referring to BF specifically. I'm aware that other casinos post.

The fact that you won't reveal your playing method probably explains why you lost your funds....it is obviously dodgy. I mean, if you wanted support from the members and even CM why wouldn't you just explain what you did and ask if everyone thnks it is legit? You said it was all above board after all, so why the secrecy?

The more I hear, the more I think there is more to hear. IMO we should refrain from assuming BF and MB are the bad guys until we know what the OP did.

Knowing what they think or claim (you pick) he did would be good, but since they won't even tell HIM that, what are we to do ?
I have to say, that in my world, if anyone empties my bank account, or any other account, and won't tell me why, then they stole my money....and until they tell me what I did, and why they took my money, and prove it, it's theft, whiich makes them the "bad guys"

 

[Markus]

The fact that you won't reveal your playing method probably explains why you lost your funds....it is obviously dodgy. I mean, if you wanted support from the members and even CM why wouldn't you just explain what you did and ask if everyone thnks it is legit? You said it was all above board after all, so why the secrecy?

Objectively I haven't violated any rule. However I'm sure that if I reveal all details a lot people would interpret this as some kind of borderline situation. Currently I don't want to weak my position by revealing all details, because I maybe will take this to court.

Currently the only Casinomeister member who knows the details is Jufo. Jufo, I invite you to publicly state your opinion to my advantage play, if you want to. This hopefully helps to retain my trustability.

@Markus, has Betfair closed your account?

Yes, Betfair has closed my account.

 

[Nifty29]

Knowing what they think or claim (you pick) he did would be good, but since they won't even tell HIM that, what are we to do ?
I have to say, that in my world, if anyone empties my bank account, or any other account, and won't tell me why, then they stole my money....and until they tell me what I did, and why they took my money, and prove it, it's theft, whiich makes them the "bad guys"

It depends why they took it....which is what we are trying to get to the bottom of here.

All we have is the OP's word that he didn't break any rules, but history shows that there are always two sides to every story and this is why the casino and MB should inform the player why his funds were removed.

It is very clear that the OP knew he was "walking on thin ice" with his "strategy"...by his own admission it is "borderline", and when it comes to such situations, the casino's decision is the binding one whether we like it or not. We all agree to that when we create a casino account.

Advantage players know that these confiscations can occur because they often push the boundaries and spend much of their time looking for loopholes in casino rules and games that most of us would never consider, so I find it hard to have any sympathy for such players, as they are the reason we all have to meet ridiculous WR on bonuses with ridiculous game restrictions. It is also the reason that sometimes honest players get caught in the net because it has to be spread so wide.

The OP knows what he did was dodgy. He doesn't want to reveal it because "I'm sure that if I reveal all details a lot people would interpret this as some kind of borderline situation" i.e. most players would consider it dodgy. It has nothing to do with any future legal action as whether his methods are revealed or not does nothing to change the facts as they stand. The only problem it may create is if some equally savvy members pick it apart and show just how dodgy it is, which might well give the defence something to use.

Think about all of this next time you bust out on a bonus even though you hit some nice wins.....

 

[chuchu59]

Derail: It's simply great to see the return of the Nifty of old.

Actually, no offense to the op I am also puzzled as to why he mentions that Betfair isnt posting. They wont but that does not mean they have something to hide. In committing such an act Betfair is coming to extremes and roguish as they are I seriously doubt they will be able to convince MB to transfer the money back to them if they didnt possess a shred of evidence to back themselves up. Both Betfair and MB must know that this course of action could result in dire consequences and if handled badly their reputation is at stake. While I am pretty sure Betfair wont part with their reasons, if any for the confiscation I believe MB is obliged to show Markus what Betfair showed them and MB's own reasons for complying with the request which is sure to have grave repercussions.

What I dont understand is why Betfair didnt stick to its roguish ways and deny payment to MB and instead take the awkward route of first paying the amount to MB and withdrawing it later.

 

[chayton]

What I dont understand is why Betfair didnt stick to its roguish ways and deny payment to MB and instead take the awkward route of first paying the amount to MB and withdrawing it later.

This is the thing that doesn't sit right with me. If they believed that the OP was doing something wrong why did they pay him in the first place. The idea that a casino can pay you and then without warning go into your webwallet or your bank and take the money back really makes me uncomfortable. Betfair is the only online casino I've ever heard of doing this, it seems like it should be illegal.

 

[Markus]

It is very clear that the OP knew he was "walking on thin ice" with his "strategy"...by his own admission it is "borderline", and when it comes to such situations, the casino's decision is the binding one whether we like it or not. We all agree to that when we create a casino account.

Please don't twist my words. I haven't said it is borderline, I have said there are people who will probably interpret it as borderline, because it is quite strange and unusual what I did. From my perspective, as a very rational and objective person, it is definitely not borderline.

In my opinion Betfair and Moneybookers are walking on thin ice, because they don't have any substantial reason for their action, as I have not violated any rule. I believe, that Moneybookers not even fully understand this issue, they just trusted Betfair.

Casinos have to be objective regarding their Terms and Conditions. They can not confiscate winnings because of some "spirit" or something like that.

 

[chuchu59]

Markus, no need to be so agitated. By stating 'borderline' maybe Nifty was referring to the part where you admitted to 'advantage play'. However, while I myself dont understand this term I believe MB understands this even less so Betfair must have produced a helluva lot more info to support its case. It is imperative that MB be accountable for its action otherwise its reputation as an e-wallet will be seriously damaged. Should I count myself lucky not to be able to use MB for gaming purposes?

 

[Markus]

Markus, no need to be so agitated. By stating 'borderline' maybe Nifty was referring to the part where you admitted to 'advantage play'. However, while I myself dont understand this term I believe MB understands this even less so Betfair must have produced a helluva lot more info to support its case. It is imperative that MB be accountable for its action otherwise its reputation as an e-wallet will be seriously damaged. Should I count myself lucky not to be able to use MB for gaming purposes?

Sorry, I didn't want to seem agitated.
I certainly do not understand how Betfair was able to convince Moneybookers. For me there are only two possibilities:

• Moneybookers is extremely naive OR
• Betfair lied to Moneybookers

 

[anniemac]

I've got to agree with Chayton. The fact that Betfair paid up and then was able to take back the money and Moneybookers let them just boggles my mind.

It makes no difference how Markus played, Betfair paid him period. It was up to them to catch any sort of problem before they paid him, not after the money was sent. And then for Moneybookers to allow them to go right in a take money from his account, not right.

In my opinion, which really doesn't amount to much, if Betfair had a problem with Markus then they should have contacted Moneybookers and had them put a hold on his account until Betfair and he had worked out the problem not just march in and take the money. I would be pissed beyond pissed.

Glad I can't use Moneybookers. One more problem I don't have to worry with.

 

[shaggy5500]

re

I'm not that shocked reading this, disgusted yes though. I am a webmaster and had the samething happen to me with moneybookers and Europartners - EuropaCasino etc. The minute a merchant requests payment be reversed it seems MoneyBookers is only too happy to comply without an explaination or contacting the account holder.

This amounts to nothing less than theft in my opinion and only goes to add black flags to what should be a safe industry. Moneybookers basicly told us, as they are telling you, to go fuck yourself and hid behind terms, that basicly says...we can do whatever the hell we want, when we want and tough shit for you - bottom line...BetFair and programs like Europartners do tons of transactions and make Moneybookers more money than any of us could posibly ever do and therefore they will blow the merchants over looking after the customers.

Best method...request a check and once cleared the casino can no steal from you...period!

 

[mn001]

Markus, can other players repeat the advantage play in the casino after they blocked you or did they "fix" it? I understand if you dont want to answer the question as it's off-topic and not needed in the thread. Im just curios Maybe PM?

As long as it didn't was for example a bug in the software, bug in bonus bar, breaking terms of loyalty points (or other terms if you had some special deal) they should pay in full then close your account. Anything else is scamming from them.

To bad other forums and sites (especially those for sports betting) thinks to much about their affiliate earnings and keep betfair as a recomended site to play at whatever they do to the players. Betfair should be banned and blacklisted everywhere after the bonus scam they did. On the other hand I can understand a webmaster earnings tens or maybe hundreds of thousands in comission every month from betfair don't take any risks. After all, money is the most important thing for 99,99%+ in this business.

 

[Nifty29]

Markus, can other players repeat the advantage play in the casino after they blocked you or did they "fix" it? I understand if you dont want to answer the question as it's off-topic and not needed in the thread. Im just curios Maybe PM?

As long as it didn't was for example a bug in the software, bug in bonus bar, breaking terms of loyalty points (or other terms if you had some special deal) they should pay in full then close your account. Anything else is scamming from them.

To bad other forums and sites (especially those for sports betting) thinks to much about their affiliate earnings and keep betfair as a recomended site to play at whatever they do to the players. Betfair should be banned and blacklisted everywhere after the bonus scam they did. On the other hand I can understand a webmaster earnings tens or maybe hundreds of thousands in comission every month from betfair don't take any risks. After all, money is the most important thing for 99,99%+ in this business.

Very true re the affiliates who care more about money than players....I could even name some but I don't want to start anything (not these days).

It would be great if Bryan could find out what really happened and why. The OP knows the why and how but he doesn't want to say it....its not like he is sitting there trying to work out what he did. Telling another member and inviting them to rubber stamp his innocence just seems pointless. If its all above board the OP should have no hesitation in explaining things, so it obviously isn't above board at all.

I'm not sure why BF just didn't deny the winnings in the first place, but I'm guessing the issue may not have been detectable in the first instance. I guess if the OP explained things we would know why.

 

[4 of a kind]

After all, money is the most important thing for 99,99%+ in this business.

Although Casino Advocates, Affiliates, Webmasters, and other associations that promote online casinos can differ from one another with different opinions, ethics, common sense, (or lack of the same); and since money is the only motivator. Your comment above stands corrected since it should read 100% about the money.

If you disagree with my opinion, please explain why someone would invest and lose money for the benefit of others in this particular field.

Of course Casinomeister is the best of the best in this field, but a whole lot could be said about others.