Betfair stole 8575.42 Euro from my Moneybookers / Skrill account

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
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Location
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Do you, in all honesty, have any idea why Betfair are annoyed at you?

Were you doing anything that might be considered 'unusual' by the majority for example.

A yes or no will suffice :)
They might not liked my play style, because I did some advantage play. However I can't be certain about the reason until Betfair tell me what the reason is. In any case I did not violate any rule whatsoever.
 

questa

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
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Mar 7, 2008
Location
UK
You did some advantage play without a bonus? That's interesting, how did you manage that with a suite of -EV and zero lounge games?

I had a look at their terms, and wonder if you have been through them to check you didn't break any? They forbid, for example, bots and third party software, among other things, which other casinos don't always forbid. Probably worth a quick read.
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
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Joined
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Location
Berlin
You did some advantage play without a bonus? That's interesting, how did you manage that with a suite of -EV and zero lounge games?

I had a look at their terms, and wonder if you have been through them to check you didn't break any? They forbid, for example, bots and third party software, among other things, which other casinos don't always forbid. Probably worth a quick read.
Upon registering at Betfair I have agreed to follow these terms:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


I have not violated any term from
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Period.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
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Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I doubt that the OP is telling us the whole story. Situations like this are very rare and moneybookers must have been convinced Buttfair had a case.

However, the casino and MB should absolutely disclose to the player what term they violated. It is a basic right for an accused to at least be told what they are accused of (even if the detail needs to be kept from them to protect security processes)

It's a shame BF are rogued as we could then hear both sides of the issue.
 

Nifty29

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How does the rogue status of Betfair stop them from replying to this thread?

It doesn't.

The problem is that BF (or any other casino for that matter) are not going to publicly reveal any evidence they have regarding your confiscation... and don't post here anyway AFAIK.

If you had submitted a PAB then we could all learn the truth via Max and Bryan, but alas it ain't gonna happen.

The issue of ewallets reversing funds is VERY rare and I would think BF must have provided some pretty damning evidence.

MB and BF should be telling you which rule you breached as that is only fair, but the exact evidence they have or how they obtained it is confidential and revealing it publicly would only serve the purposes of the fraudsters that are constantly lurking in the background looking for ways to avoid getting caught.

It's odd that you chose to ask about why BF aren't posting, rather than deny that you aren't telling the whole story. I'll put that down to an omission.
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
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Location
Berlin
The problem is that BF (or any other casino for that matter) are not going to publicly reveal any evidence they have regarding your confiscation... and don't post here anyway AFAIK.
Why not? I have seen many cases here in the Complaints Forum where casinos did comment on issus that involves them.

The issue of ewallets reversing funds is VERY rare and I would think BF must have provided some pretty damning evidence.
I would also expect from Moneybookers, that they only reverse funds if there is any hard evidence. But this can't be the case, because I haven't violated any rule.

It's odd that you chose to ask about why BF aren't posting, rather than deny that you aren't telling the whole story. I'll put that down to an omission.
Everything I said is 100% correct and the truth. However I'm currently not willing to reveal all details about my advantage play, thats all, sorry. This maybe fall into "not telling the whole story".
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
What bothers me so much is that his MB account was pilfered after they had paid him -- according to the OP -- "several withdrawals". So even if they eventually saw something they felt was irregular about his play or account or whatever, what took so long? Why do it after the fact? What if he'd already moved the money out of MB when Betfair did their 'chargeback' (they're making this something of a habit aren't they)? I find it confusing and really unsettling that MB just hands over $9k of a customer's monies without so much as a whimper, whatever Betfair's mystery reasoning.

(derail -- Good to see you again, Nifty! /derail)
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Betfair reclaimed funds from players' ewallets, and even bank accounts in the Happy Hour promo, where no terms were broke on bonus play.

Markus posted in response to a post I made about not having an advantage on house games with no bonus in another thread, implying that perfect play combined with comp points might be EV plus.

Doesn't give them an excuse, but it might give them a reason.

I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, I just thought it would be a denial of some winnings, not a confiscation endorsed by Moneybookers of past winnings.

I wish Markus all the best in persuing it. The casinos set the rules and the terms, and if you abide by them you shouldn't be penalized. Pay the player and refuse future dealings with them.

I've lost a lot of confidence in Moneybookers over this. Neteller is not available to me in Canada, and Ecocard has much higher fees.
 

Nifty29

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Why not? I have seen many cases here in the Complaints Forum where casinos did comment on issus that involves them.

I would also expect from Moneybookers, that they only reverse funds if there is any hard evidence. But this can't be the case, because I haven't violated any rule.

Everything I said is 100% correct and the truth. However I'm currently not willing to reveal all details about my advantage play, thats all, sorry. This. maybe fall into "not telling the whole story".

I was referring to BF specifically. I'm aware that other casinos post.

The fact that you won't reveal your playing method probably explains why you lost your funds....it is obviously dodgy. I mean, if you wanted support from the members and even CM why wouldn't you just explain what you did and ask if everyone thnks it is legit? You said it was all above board after all, so why the secrecy?

The more I hear, the more I think there is more to hear. IMO we should refrain from assuming BF and MB are the bad guys until we know what the OP did.
 

LaHutti

Sr. ÜberUnter Ass. Man.
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I was referring to BF specifically. I'm aware that other casinos post.

The fact that you won't reveal your playing method probably explains why you lost your funds....it is obviously dodgy. I mean, if you wanted support from the members and even CM why wouldn't you just explain what you did and ask if everyone thnks it is legit? You said it was all above board after all, so why the secrecy?

The more I hear, the more I think there is more to hear. IMO we should refrain from assuming BF and MB are the bad guys until we know what the OP did.

Knowing what they think or claim (you pick) he did would be good, but since they won't even tell HIM that, what are we to do ?
I have to say, that in my world, if anyone empties my bank account, or any other account, and won't tell me why, then they stole my money....and until they tell me what I did, and why they took my money, and prove it, it's theft, whiich makes them the "bad guys"
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
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Location
Berlin
The fact that you won't reveal your playing method probably explains why you lost your funds....it is obviously dodgy. I mean, if you wanted support from the members and even CM why wouldn't you just explain what you did and ask if everyone thnks it is legit? You said it was all above board after all, so why the secrecy?
Objectively I haven't violated any rule. However I'm sure that if I reveal all details a lot people would interpret this as some kind of borderline situation. Currently I don't want to weak my position by revealing all details, because I maybe will take this to court.

Currently the only Casinomeister member who knows the details is Jufo. Jufo, I invite you to publicly state your opinion to my advantage play, if you want to. This hopefully helps to retain my trustability.

@Markus, has Betfair closed your account?
Yes, Betfair has closed my account.
 

Nifty29

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Location
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Knowing what they think or claim (you pick) he did would be good, but since they won't even tell HIM that, what are we to do ?
I have to say, that in my world, if anyone empties my bank account, or any other account, and won't tell me why, then they stole my money....and until they tell me what I did, and why they took my money, and prove it, it's theft, whiich makes them the "bad guys"

It depends why they took it....which is what we are trying to get to the bottom of here.

All we have is the OP's word that he didn't break any rules, but history shows that there are always two sides to every story and this is why the casino and MB should inform the player why his funds were removed.

It is very clear that the OP knew he was "walking on thin ice" with his "strategy"...by his own admission it is "borderline", and when it comes to such situations, the casino's decision is the binding one whether we like it or not. We all agree to that when we create a casino account.

Advantage players know that these confiscations can occur because they often push the boundaries and spend much of their time looking for loopholes in casino rules and games that most of us would never consider, so I find it hard to have any sympathy for such players, as they are the reason we all have to meet ridiculous WR on bonuses with ridiculous game restrictions. It is also the reason that sometimes honest players get caught in the net because it has to be spread so wide.

The OP knows what he did was dodgy. He doesn't want to reveal it because "I'm sure that if I reveal all details a lot people would interpret this as some kind of borderline situation" i.e. most players would consider it dodgy. It has nothing to do with any future legal action as whether his methods are revealed or not does nothing to change the facts as they stand. The only problem it may create is if some equally savvy members pick it apart and show just how dodgy it is, which might well give the defence something to use.

Think about all of this next time you bust out on a bonus even though you hit some nice wins.....
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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Derail: It's simply great to see the return of the Nifty of old.

Actually, no offense to the op I am also puzzled as to why he mentions that Betfair isnt posting. They wont but that does not mean they have something to hide. In committing such an act Betfair is coming to extremes and roguish as they are I seriously doubt they will be able to convince MB to transfer the money back to them if they didnt possess a shred of evidence to back themselves up. Both Betfair and MB must know that this course of action could result in dire consequences and if handled badly their reputation is at stake. While I am pretty sure Betfair wont part with their reasons, if any for the confiscation I believe MB is obliged to show Markus what Betfair showed them and MB's own reasons for complying with the request which is sure to have grave repercussions.

What I dont understand is why Betfair didnt stick to its roguish ways and deny payment to MB and instead take the awkward route of first paying the amount to MB and withdrawing it later.
 

chayton

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What I dont understand is why Betfair didnt stick to its roguish ways and deny payment to MB and instead take the awkward route of first paying the amount to MB and withdrawing it later.

This is the thing that doesn't sit right with me. If they believed that the OP was doing something wrong why did they pay him in the first place. The idea that a casino can pay you and then without warning go into your webwallet or your bank and take the money back really makes me uncomfortable. Betfair is the only online casino I've ever heard of doing this, it seems like it should be illegal.
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
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It is very clear that the OP knew he was "walking on thin ice" with his "strategy"...by his own admission it is "borderline", and when it comes to such situations, the casino's decision is the binding one whether we like it or not. We all agree to that when we create a casino account.
Please don't twist my words. I haven't said it is borderline, I have said there are people who will probably interpret it as borderline, because it is quite strange and unusual what I did. From my perspective, as a very rational and objective person, it is definitely not borderline.

In my opinion Betfair and Moneybookers are walking on thin ice, because they don't have any substantial reason for their action, as I have not violated any rule. I believe, that Moneybookers not even fully understand this issue, they just trusted Betfair.

Casinos have to be objective regarding their Terms and Conditions. They can not confiscate winnings because of some "spirit" or something like that.
 

chuchu59

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Markus, no need to be so agitated. By stating 'borderline' maybe Nifty was referring to the part where you admitted to 'advantage play'. However, while I myself dont understand this term I believe MB understands this even less so Betfair must have produced a helluva lot more info to support its case. It is imperative that MB be accountable for its action otherwise its reputation as an e-wallet will be seriously damaged. Should I count myself lucky not to be able to use MB for gaming purposes?:confused:
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
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Markus, no need to be so agitated. By stating 'borderline' maybe Nifty was referring to the part where you admitted to 'advantage play'. However, while I myself dont understand this term I believe MB understands this even less so Betfair must have produced a helluva lot more info to support its case. It is imperative that MB be accountable for its action otherwise its reputation as an e-wallet will be seriously damaged. Should I count myself lucky not to be able to use MB for gaming purposes?:confused:
Sorry, I didn't want to seem agitated.
I certainly do not understand how Betfair was able to convince Moneybookers. For me there are only two possibilities:
  • Moneybookers is extremely naive OR
  • Betfair lied to Moneybookers
 

anniemac

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I've got to agree with Chayton. The fact that Betfair paid up and then was able to take back the money and Moneybookers let them just boggles my mind.

It makes no difference how Markus played, Betfair paid him period. It was up to them to catch any sort of problem before they paid him, not after the money was sent. And then for Moneybookers to allow them to go right in a take money from his account, not right.

In my opinion, which really doesn't amount to much, if Betfair had a problem with Markus then they should have contacted Moneybookers and had them put a hold on his account until Betfair and he had worked out the problem not just march in and take the money. I would be pissed beyond pissed.

Glad I can't use Moneybookers. One more problem I don't have to worry with.
 

shaggy5500

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Location
canada
re

I'm not that shocked reading this, disgusted yes though. I am a webmaster and had the samething happen to me with moneybookers and Europartners - EuropaCasino etc. The minute a merchant requests payment be reversed it seems MoneyBookers is only too happy to comply without an explaination or contacting the account holder.

This amounts to nothing less than theft in my opinion and only goes to add black flags to what should be a safe industry. Moneybookers basicly told us, as they are telling you, to go fuck yourself and hid behind terms, that basicly says...we can do whatever the hell we want, when we want and tough shit for you - bottom line...BetFair and programs like Europartners do tons of transactions and make Moneybookers more money than any of us could posibly ever do and therefore they will blow the merchants over looking after the customers.

Best method...request a check and once cleared the casino can no steal from you...period!
 

mn001

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Casino
Markus, can other players repeat the advantage play in the casino after they blocked you or did they "fix" it? I understand if you dont want to answer the question as it's off-topic and not needed in the thread. Im just curios :) Maybe PM? :)

As long as it didn't was for example a bug in the software, bug in bonus bar, breaking terms of loyalty points (or other terms if you had some special deal) they should pay in full then close your account. Anything else is scamming from them.

To bad other forums and sites (especially those for sports betting) thinks to much about their affiliate earnings and keep betfair as a recomended site to play at whatever they do to the players. Betfair should be banned and blacklisted everywhere after the bonus scam they did. On the other hand I can understand a webmaster earnings tens or maybe hundreds of thousands in comission every month from betfair don't take any risks. After all, money is the most important thing for 99,99%+ in this business.
 

Nifty29

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Markus, can other players repeat the advantage play in the casino after they blocked you or did they "fix" it? I understand if you dont want to answer the question as it's off-topic and not needed in the thread. Im just curios :) Maybe PM? :)

As long as it didn't was for example a bug in the software, bug in bonus bar, breaking terms of loyalty points (or other terms if you had some special deal) they should pay in full then close your account. Anything else is scamming from them.

To bad other forums and sites (especially those for sports betting) thinks to much about their affiliate earnings and keep betfair as a recomended site to play at whatever they do to the players. Betfair should be banned and blacklisted everywhere after the bonus scam they did. On the other hand I can understand a webmaster earnings tens or maybe hundreds of thousands in comission every month from betfair don't take any risks. After all, money is the most important thing for 99,99%+ in this business.

Very true re the affiliates who care more about money than players....I could even name some but I don't want to start anything (not these days).

It would be great if Bryan could find out what really happened and why. The OP knows the why and how but he doesn't want to say it....its not like he is sitting there trying to work out what he did. Telling another member and inviting them to rubber stamp his innocence just seems pointless. If its all above board the OP should have no hesitation in explaining things, so it obviously isn't above board at all.

I'm not sure why BF just didn't deny the winnings in the first place, but I'm guessing the issue may not have been detectable in the first instance. I guess if the OP explained things we would know why.
 

4 of a kind

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After all, money is the most important thing for 99,99%+ in this business.


Although Casino Advocates, Affiliates, Webmasters, and other associations that promote online casinos can differ from one another with different opinions, ethics, common sense, (or lack of the same); and since money is the only motivator. Your comment above stands corrected since it should read 100% about the money.

If you disagree with my opinion, please explain why someone would invest and lose money for the benefit of others in this particular field.

Of course Casinomeister is the best of the best in this field, but a whole lot could be said about others.
 

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