An issue with player - advice needed

[SlotMonster]

Hello, fellow members!

Maybe it sounds a bit strange, but I need your advice as Casino Rep.

We are now dealing with the player who have deposited £400 into BigCasino, received £150 bonus, but asked it to be removed. We did remove the bonus, and sent him an email stating that when he may want to withdraw the funds - a message about uncleared WR will appear, but player should just send us email and we will process his withdrawal manually.

1. Some time after that we got another email from him, where he said that he played our Roulette and managed to build his bankroll to £800, and then decided to submit a withdrawal. As we stated in our email, he saw a message about uncleared WR, went back to his play thinking that he still has WR to clear and eventually lost all his money (£800). He also demanded that it's a "clear breach of codes set by Isle of Man" and promised not to take any legal actions if £800 will be transfered back to his account.

2. In our reply to him we reminded him about our previous email, where we warned him about this message, and about he should have sent us email with withdrawal request. Moreover, as our good will we credited his account with £200 (NO WR!), which he also lost. We also offered a huge deposit bonus on his next deposit.

3. Then he replied back and insisted he didn't receive our email with warning and lost his money thinking he still had WR to clear. He also said that he "have arranged a meeting with his solicitor for next week".

4. After numerous emails back and forth he changed his mind, and sent us email when he said that

In an attempt to reason with bigcasino I would be
prepared to ask for just the £400 back, my initial deposit. I am very
reluctant to do this as it should have been £800 if you have kept to within
the regulations set my the relevant governing bodies, but in an effort to
have a speedy resolution I would accept the £400 returned.

So, what we have now: the player, who lost all his monies in our casino and who demands he didn't get our email and wants his deposit to be refunded. The case isn't closed, so I would like not to be a Casino Rep who will just say: "Our decision is final, and that's all".

Any opinions are welcome. If you need any additional information - please feel free to ask.

Regards,
Viktar.

 

[lnspin]

Put the $400 in his account, and leave it up to him if he wants to withdraw it or play it. Chances are high he will probably lose it anyway.

But before doing this send him an email stating this is what you are going to do, and have him confirm it first.

Sort of.

Dear ""

We have credited your $400 back to your account, please go and withdraw it at your convience.

Thank you.

 

[lots0]

Give him the 400 and show him the door...
Sounds like the guy has a problem...

 

[H1_Roller]

Hmmm... I get the feeling he knew fine rightly that all he had to do was email the withdrawal request (he was explained this), but decided to chance his arm. He lost and is now, again, chancing his arm. I believe he is being opportunistic.

The fact he accepted the £200 with no WR tells it's own story. Had he been genuinely mislead for whatever reason, he would have refused that offer and insisted on the £800 being returned to his account immediately. Plus, why would he spend the £800 and THEN kick up a stink?

 

[Pulver]

Seems like he is angleshooting a bit to me, but it could be that the email got stuck in his spam filter or something. I think the wisest business descision on your end would be to put the 400 back into his account. Chances are that he would play some more and this way you may have gotten yourself a loyal customer instead of him becomming angry and finding another casino to play at.

I would also suggest that you implement a better system for removing bonuses in the future, as it would be a pain in the ass for every player who asks for their bonus to be removed to have to get that message, send emails etc. when they are about to withdraw. The whole thing can be seen on as a dodgy tactic from the casino to get the player to not withdraw and play on.

 

[Repro]

Viktar, i think you've done more than enough for this player.

You SPECIFICALLY told him in the email that he should contact you if he wanted to withdraw. He also should have known that there COULDN'T have been a remaining WR, because he himself took action to have the bonus removed.

I think the £200 you credited him - no WR even - was too generous. I'm afraid just BECAUSE you have been this generous he is trying to take (extra) advantage of it.

You already offered him big depositbonusses and i should leave it at that.

My vision on this is: "case closed". You would be crazy to credit him the £400.

Frank

 

[cpdnd31]

OK Main point that started all of this was player did not want bonus correct? Then you removed bonus correct? So why would player even think he had a wr? If that message showed up as I was trying to cash out I would have been on live chat !!!! He is taking you for a ride. I would fight tooth and nail and then get him blacklisted at every casino you could.....

 

[oldtrvlagt]

My vote is "you've done enough"! I agree with Repro...and, the player knew the bonus was removed therefore NO WR. I think he is trying to play you. JMO

 

[anniemac]

Here's my take.

He had a deposit bonus. He asked for it to be removed. It was. So, he knew how much money he had in his account, ei original amount of deposit. So deposit bonus gone, WR gone. He knew there was no wagering requirement. He played, he lost, case closed.

If I got a 'not met wagering' I too would have been on chat like white on rice.

Nope, no refund from me.

 

[sparkz]

Its a weird 1.

As I player I would love to have £400 but you must see the facts.

They deposited and had bonus removed. Was it CLEARLY stated in the email that when they withdraw it will say "WR" not met and you will process it manually? (some casinos put thing like this in tiny writing at bottom of email).

The player then had £800 winnings? went to cashout and got "wr not met" so gambled and lost the lot? - That relates to post 1, all about how CLEARLY it said you will process it manually.

You then gave him £200 which he could of cashed out right away but instead he gambled and lost it.


Firstly he emailed to ask that the bonus was removed? Thus he would know that of course you would reply to that email to say the bonus is removed (Cant be an excuse about the email not coming through since when he signed up he must of got a confirmation email and you have proof it was sent?). Which he should of checked. Even so if he hadnt then he should of checked to see what the problem was when trying to cashout the £800.


The reality of it is the £200 given to him was a very very goodwill gesture. Too good in fact. Not many casinos would of done that.

If I was him personally I would give myself a slap on the bum and say "not gonna be that silly again".


As for a "legal" case in all fairness no solicitor is going to bother with the "case" for such a tiny sum to be reclaimed.

 

[kidgamer]

What are we teaching the player if his deposit is returned to him? That he deserves his deposit back for lacking any self control? That's ridiculous. Don't give him his deposit back. Don't reward bad behavior. The casino has already been more than generous to the player.

If the casino gives into at fault players demands (extortion anyone?) and returns his full deposit aren't they only enabling or conditioning him to pull the same stunt the next time he loses?

The guy lost his money because he got greedy. He continued to play (and lose) rather than taking a few minutes to contact cs to resolve the error he received when he tried to make an immediate withdrawal.

Just my $0.02

 

[mn001]

Just ban him. It's a clearly fraud attempt.

 

[cpdnd31]

It makes me mad. It's players like this that ruin it for all of us that truly enjoy to play....

A bucket of tar and feathers would come in handy right now lol. There have been legit cases of people who got confused- like the one a couple of months ago when the casino put money back in and he didn't realize it- did he get money back no- you have been more then understanding- as a rep you should know being nice is one thing but sometimes you just have to say NO. You made an effort more then what I would have done. I worked in land based casinos as a supervisor and people would pull crap all the time, in the beginning I had a heart sure we can replay the hand, give him his bet back. But then I became jaded. So I understand you wanting to do everything to maintain your customer service reputation, but do you really want a customer like that. I applaud you giving the 200 you made the effort. But I would not give a penny more.

 

[FreeDomme]

Do whatever 32Red would do and you are golden.

 

[Chron]

I agree with Inspin and Pulver

Make sure you get the confirmation from the player that he or she has received your email. And by sending ‘two’ emails in the future (should something similar happen again) you could avoid a lot of trouble. Emails don’t always get to their destination and sending two emails (in the future) could save a lot of trouble for both sides.

::Read:
But most things can be set up automatically these days and shouldn’t need emails-and their confirmation etc... Maybe you could do a set-up on your system where a box comes up for the player to tick that he acknowledges certain conditions if he wants the bonus removed…

Karen

 

[LHofsdal]

The player has already made 200 dollars off the casino. Show him the door. This player knows exactly what he is doing, why do you think he sent an e-mail asking for his deposits back. You and your casino owe him nothing.

LH

 

[chuchu59]

Hello, fellow members!

Maybe it sounds a bit strange, but I need your advice as Casino Rep.

We are now dealing with the player who have deposited £400 into BigCasino, received £150 bonus, but asked it to be removed. We did remove the bonus, and sent him an email stating that when he may want to withdraw the funds - a message about uncleared WR will appear, but player should just send us email and we will process his withdrawal manually.

1. Some time after that we got another email from him, where he said that he played our Roulette and managed to build his bankroll to £800, and then decided to submit a withdrawal. As we stated in our email, he saw a message about uncleared WR, went back to his play thinking that he still has WR to clear and eventually lost all his money (£800). He also demanded that it's a "clear breach of codes set by Isle of Man" and promised not to take any legal actions if £800 will be transfered back to his account.

2. In our reply to him we reminded him about our previous email, where we warned him about this message, and about he should have sent us email with withdrawal request. Moreover, as our good will we credited his account with £200 (NO WR!), which he also lost. We also offered a huge deposit bonus on his next deposit.

3. Then he replied back and insisted he didn't receive our email with warning and lost his money thinking he still had WR to clear. He also said that he "have arranged a meeting with his solicitor for next week".

4. After numerous emails back and forth he changed his mind, and sent us email when he said that



So, what we have now: the player, who lost all his monies in our casino and who demands he didn't get our email and wants his deposit to be refunded. The case isn't closed, so I would like not to be a Casino Rep who will just say: "Our decision is final, and that's all".

Any opinions are welcome. If you need any additional information - please feel free to ask.

Regards,
Viktar.

a prime example of a greedy player trying to get all the favours on his side. if he was smart enough to ask you to remove the bonus and it was done promptly he should have also tried to contact support to process his withdrawal manually. an experienced player would have known the cashier would automatically decline it and he just played on hoping to win more. in case he lost, hre would shift the blame on the rejected withdrawal.obviously, he should not have played before asking support to assist in the withdrawal and getting a reply. rogue this guy

 

[SlotMonster]

Thanks!

Thank you for your responses

I would also suggest that you implement a better system for removing bonuses in the future, as it would be a pain in the ass for every player who asks for their bonus to be removed to have to get that message, send emails etc. when they are about to withdraw. The whole thing can be seen on as a dodgy tactic from the casino to get the player to not withdraw and play on.

Yes, lesson learned and in the future we are going to update our system to avoid such situations. We will also update our mail system, so on any important email sent to player there will be an auto-confirmation once message is opened by this player.

Viktar, i think you've done more than enough for this player.

You SPECIFICALLY told him in the email that he should contact you if he wanted to withdraw. He also should have known that there COULDN'T have been a remaining WR, because he himself took action to have the bonus removed.

I think the £200 you credited him - no WR even - was too generous. I'm afraid just BECAUSE you have been this generous he is trying to take (extra) advantage of it.

You already offered him big depositbonusses and i should leave it at that.

My vision on this is: "case closed". You would be crazy to credit him the £400.

Frank

Thanks, Frank!
I'm thinking the same, but unfortunately it wasn't me personally who credited the bonus and I stepped into this issue after it was credited. So now I'm dealing with what I have.

Here's my take.

He had a deposit bonus. He asked for it to be removed. It was. So, he knew how much money he had in his account, ei original amount of deposit. So deposit bonus gone, WR gone. He knew there was no wagering requirement. He played, he lost, case closed.

If I got a 'not met wagering' I too would have been on chat like white on rice.

Nope, no refund from me.

It's a very good point, anniemac

Its a weird 1.

As I player I would love to have £400 but you must see the facts.

They deposited and had bonus removed. Was it CLEARLY stated in the email that when they withdraw it will say "WR" not met and you will process it manually? (some casinos put thing like this in tiny writing at bottom of email).

The player then had £800 winnings? went to cashout and got "wr not met" so gambled and lost the lot? - That relates to post 1, all about how CLEARLY it said you will process it manually.

You then gave him £200 which he could of cashed out right away but instead he gambled and lost it.

Firstly he emailed to ask that the bonus was removed? Thus he would know that of course you would reply to that email to say the bonus is removed (Cant be an excuse about the email not coming through since when he signed up he must of got a confirmation email and you have proof it was sent?). Which he should of checked. Even so if he hadnt then he should of checked to see what the problem was when trying to cashout the £800.

The reality of it is the £200 given to him was a very very goodwill gesture. Too good in fact. Not many casinos would of done that.

If I was him personally I would give myself a slap on the bum and say "not gonna be that silly again".

As for a "legal" case in all fairness no solicitor is going to bother with the "case" for such a tiny sum to be reclaimed.

Excellent post, sparkz!
I'm sure the fact the bonus was given without WR, as free money, make player think that if he push a bit harder - he can get his deposit back. From what I see now in emails sent to him, our CEO offered him another £200 to close this case (I think player will loose it as hi did with the first £200), but reply haven't received yet. If player accept the offer - we will credit his account with £200 and forget about it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

A chancer.

Advise the player that he can ask an independent mediator (Casinomeister) to take a look at his case, and that you will honour that mediators decision. This should save you up to £800

It looks like he saw the loophole in your systems, and decided that he could push for a larger win, but not risk losing it back because he could then exploit the loophole to argue for his £800.

He very quickly threatens legal action, and seems to know a fair bit about who to contact to maximise your fears (The IOM regulators). Someone with this experience would know that the IOM regulators would ALSO require you to NOT enforce WR once a bonus has been removed, yet he did not see fit to bring up IOM rules when he found WR attached to his £800, despite the bonus having been removed.

As to him having spoken to his solicitor - that's bollocks, it's a pressure tactic to get you to act without thinking it through. He was far too quick to escalate the matter this far for this to be a genuine grievance.

As a new casino, and one with an IOM license, you are a target for the chancers. You may find another player comes along and tries the same thing.

Once you close the loopholes that he used to construct this scam, you will be better placed to avoid such incidents in the future.

If he DOES actually send you a court summons (unlikely, because by this time he will know he is "busted", and would lose), make sure you (as a company) turn up. This is another loophole in our legal system, there to protect consumers, but open to manipulation. It works because if your company does NOT submit a defence, the court will often rule on the complainant's side of the story alone, and this could result in a judgement against you by default. Rogue companies often fail to show up in court to defend the indefensible, which is why this consumer protection rule was put in place.

If you give in to these demands, you will make yourself an even BIGGER target, and this scheme will be discussed in some of the shadier player fora (might be worth having a look yourself to see if this is already the case).

 

[chayton]

I agree with most of the other posters, I think that the guy was just playing with no risk. If he won more, then he's laughing - and if he loses, he passes the buck on to the casino. However, if the bonus was removed, there shouldn't have showed any WR on cashout, email or no email. That's something that needs to be fixed before it gets taken advantage of again. And yes if I'd have seen that I'd have gone to chat also, but any fraudster will see it as an opportunity to do the same thing this guy did.

You already gave him $200, if you give him another $200 then that's his deposit back. I think that's more than fair. And if he's got a problem with that, tell him to PAB at casinomeister. I for one would love to see how it would turn out.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

This player is clearly trying to blackmail and is taking advantage of your good nature.

It annoys me when I see players acting like this as much as when I see casinos taking advantage of genuine mistakes by players.

I want to see a fair balance between the rights of players and casinos and IMO you have been more than fair in this case.

I'm glad you have updated your systems as asking to have a bonus removed is probably unusual but not that uncommon. And a player could make a genuine error if a lot of time had elapsed between having the bonus removed and playing.

 

[SlotMonster]

This player is clearly trying to blackmail and is taking advantage of your good nature.

It annoys me when I see players acting like this as much as when I see casinos taking advantage of genuine mistakes by players.

I want to see a fair balance between the rights of players and casinos and IMO you have been more than fair in this case.

I'm glad you have updated your systems as asking to have a bonus removed is probably unusual but not that uncommon. And a player could make a genuine error if a lot of time had elapsed between having the bonus removed and playing.

Thank you for you reply, DiamondGeezer!
Yes, we are working on it right now and our system will be updated asap.

And thank you all for your support! I'm trying to do my best as Casino Rep, and thought it would be interesting to hear players' opinions since the situation is a bit unusual

I also would like to point that we are not going to tolerate such behavior from players' side and going to protect our reputation and business as best as we could in the future.

Regards,
Viktar.

 

[DemonUK]

If you hadn't removed the bonus he would have asked again. He knew it was removed and played. Then you give him 200, by accepting nd playing that imo he loses any right to continue the dispute. My take he's lost his 400 rent money and is now in deep brown stuff. If it was me i'd just wait for the solicitors letter.........forever and a day i expect.

 

[SlotMonster]

If you hadn't removed the bonus he would have asked again. He knew it was removed and played. Then you give him 200, by accepting nd playing that imo he loses any right to continue the dispute. My take he's lost his 400 rent money and is now in deep brown stuff. If it was me i'd just wait for the solicitors letter.........forever and a day i expect.

Well, we still haven't got any reply from him, so all we can do now is just wait

 

[Rhyzz]

I'll be devils advocate here and say if the system told him he had wagering requirements, which it did, regardless of any email you sent to him, you probably should have refunded him. However, if he's accepted and played with the goodwill you gave him, he no longer has a case against you.

 

[SlotMonster]

I'll be devils advocate here and say if the system told him he had wagering requirements, which it did, regardless of any email you sent to him, you probably should have refunded him. However, if he's accepted and played with the goodwill you gave him, he no longer has a case against you.

I can't agree here. As it was mentioned above, if he saw the bonus removed, so it is obvious there are no WR to clear and the first step he had to do is to contact support before making a withdrawal.

 

[baldidiot]

This guy sounds like a P.I.T.A.

I agree with the comment that was made earlier, send him over to CM to PAB.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If a player plays on, and loses a disputed sum that was in his account, rather than following through with a gripe, it is usually considered too late to have the clock rewound and the lost amount regained.

He already had £200 handed back to him, and was offered a generous incentive to play again. Although given that he asked for the initial bonus to be removed, this may not interest him.

His actions and reactions over the shortfall in the software are those of a newbie, yet his complaint seems to have come from someone with quite a bit of knowledge of how things work.

You may not hear from him again, but no doubt another casino will have the misfortune of having him try something similar

 

[sparkz]

Excellent post, sparkz!
I'm sure the fact the bonus was given without WR, as free money, make player think that if he push a bit harder - he can get his deposit back. From what I see now in emails sent to him, our CEO offered him another £200 to close this case (I think player will loose it as hi did with the first £200), but reply haven't received yet. If player accept the offer - we will credit his account with £200 and forget about it.

No problem.

I know theres £200 being credited to him which is more than goodwill.

Are you a player yourself? If so im sure you would agree you wouldnt expect generosity to be that great from casinos especially since its going beyond the call of duty and beyond "helping the player in every way".

This thing as well is in this day and age everyone knows how rogue a lot of casinos can be. Back when I started gambling rogues were not as common so it was pot luck.

Nowadays rogue casinos/operators are everywhere. If you google "casinos" you are bound to get the word "rogue" come up next to it under 1 result and its common knowledge even for newbies that you have to be careful where you play.

Furthermore it brings up the simple subject of "customer support". If a player suspects the slightest thing isnt right then they should know full well to get onto customer support and get them to make it right.

For me even if I have the slightest query I make sure im onto support right away. Even if I have to ask 3 different CS staff the same question to make sure im given the right answer.

Thats what you guys are there for anyway. To make sure the players experience is fair and they are treated correctly so when they lose they can say "ahh well, wasnt my day" or if they win you are there to say "well done, you played well and we hope you enjoy your winnings". Im sure no customer support would ever mind a player asking the same thing several times for piece of mind, afterall players are the casinos bread and butter and if they are happy the casino is happy.

 

[casinoboy2k]

I also agree with Repro

Vic, you made the terms clear on what it was he was expected to do.
I feel like he is taking advantage of your kindness. At best, give him only half back.

 

[SlotMonster]

Thats what you guys are there for anyway. To make sure the players experience is fair and they are treated correctly so when they lose they can say "ahh well, wasnt my day" or if they win you are there to say "well done, you played well and we hope you enjoy your winnings". Im sure no customer support would ever mind a player asking the same thing several times for piece of mind, afterall players are the casinos bread and butter and if they are happy the casino is happy.

That's the main principle of our business and we are doing our best to follow it

Vic, you made the terms clear on what it was he was expected to do. I feel like he is taking advantage of your kindness. At best, give him only half back.

Well, as I said: lesson learned and we are now closing every possible loophole in our system

 

[SlotMonster]

Case Closed!

Well, I think we can close this "case".

Player has accepted another £200 we offered him with 1x wagering on Slots (giving us £400 in total we paid back) and apparently lost it all again.

Then he deposited £140 more and managed to build his bankroll up to £540 and then submitted a withdrawal, which we processed almost immediately.

Player also asked his account to be closed, and it was also done.

End of story

 

[sparkz]

bit strange, he loses £400 of deposits, then loses everything else (the amounts you credited), but then a deposit of a weird sum (£140) got him his exact money back that he deposited.

You sure all his money wasnt refunded because it could seem strange a player peaking and cashing out at exactly the amount lost (especially this player who cant even keep his balance when he has won, so surely winning just his money back will make him push for more)

Anyways glad you resolved it, and remember "if you give them an inch they will try and take a mile"

 

[vinylweatherman]

bit strange, he loses £400 of deposits, then loses everything else (the amounts you credited), but then a deposit of a weird sum (£140) got him his exact money back that he deposited.

You sure all his money wasnt refunded because it could seem strange a player peaking and cashing out at exactly the amount lost (especially this player who cant even keep his balance when he has won, so surely winning just his money back will make him push for more)

Anyways glad you resolved it, and remember "if you give them an inch they will try and take a mile"

Not really. A spark of common sense maybe, quit at break-even for once rather than lose the lot a THIRD time.

It seems odd too that he played away the later £200, rather than realising he was on borrowed time, and cashing out what he could get away with.

Maybe he had something else in mind, but decided that Viaden would not fall for it, so quit at break-even, closed his account, and moved on.

£140 may have been his "left overs" that day. I have sometimes deposited odd amounts when this is all that remained in my Neteller, even though I usually deposit in "round numbers" like £100, £200, etc...

 

[SlotMonster]

I'm glad we finally closed it, because sending endless emails started to be just a waste of time, so I think we handled it well

 

[cagedtiger]

imho

When a player asks for a bonus to be removed, it is only for the reason that there be no WR. To me, it`s clear cut. He had it his way, lost, then found other excuses to fight for more chances to try again.

You`ve been very fair. What casino are you a representing? I'm not sure where to check for that in your post, but you guys sound awesome and fair

 

[SlotMonster]

You`ve been very fair. What casino are you a representing? I'm not sure where to check for that in your post, but you guys sound awesome and fair

Thanks! See my signature for more information

 

[Repro]

Well, I think we can close this "case".

Player has accepted another £200 we offered him with 1x wagering on Slots (giving us £400 in total we paid back) and apparently lost it all again.

Then he deposited £140 more and managed to build his bankroll up to £540 and then submitted a withdrawal, which we processed almost immediately.

Player also asked his account to be closed, and it was also done.

End of story

Although i'm glad this case is closed, i still think too much credit has been given to this player.

Hmm... Too bad it's UK only (right?) or i would have tried the same thing maybe (+EV!!!)

 

[oldtrvlagt]

Viktar...you are a gentleman and you and the casino should do well I wish you success

 

[jod5413]

Viktar...you are a gentleman and you and the casino should do well I wish you success

I agree 100% with you, Oldtrvlagt. No matter how big your outfit gets, Viktar, if you maintain this one on one attitude with players you should go far in the business!!

 

[zaaaaabaaaaam]

Viktar, i think you've done more than enough for this player.

You SPECIFICALLY told him in the email that he should contact you if he wanted to withdraw. He also should have known that there COULDN'T have been a remaining WR, because he himself took action to have the bonus removed.

I think the £200 you credited him - no WR even - was too generous. I'm afraid just BECAUSE you have been this generous he is trying to take (extra) advantage of it.

You already offered him big depositbonusses and i should leave it at that.

My vision on this is: "case closed". You would be crazy to credit him the £400.

Frank

I totally agree with above. Enough is enough. You cannot give in too much as this would just hurt the business in the long run. It's a pretty clear case of a player abusing the generosity of the casino. No refund to player. Case closed.