A question to fellow members who live in Germany

[dionysus]

Anyway, bowing out. I remember the gun debate (lol).
I've said my 2 cents (less than to some, perhaps a nickel to others).

 

[MiltonW]

Again, not the point.

Exactly the point. But when people don't have answers, they bow out...

 

[dionysus]

Exactly the point. But when people don't have answers, they bow out...

Another strawman. I made my points. Several times in fact. You can find them littered throughout the thread. Being baited into fallacial arguments doesnt negate that.

 

[MiltonW]

Another strawman. I made my points. Several times in fact. You can find them littered throughout the thread. Being baited into fallacial arguments doesnt negate that.

You have made no point what so ever. You keep dodging all my questions.

 

[zaalouk29]

Another strawman. I made my points. Several times in fact. You can find them littered throughout the thread. Being baited into fallacial arguments doesnt negate that.

Very wise to bow out, I should do the same nothing to gain

 

[dionysus]

You have made no point what so ever. You keep dodging all my questions.

I've addressed every question save for theoretical points unrelated to the OP.

 

[MiltonW]

I've addressed every question save for theoretical points unrelated to the OP.

How? You agreed that the 'refugees' choose their country based on prospects, not just about being safe. That was exactly my point.
And when I ask you what Canada would do in such a situation, no answer...

 

[goatwack]

Refugees are taken in across the world...the 'world' isn't demanding Europe open its doors to every last one. Let's be fair - a train as you say, hardly has the means to pull into port here. Canada currently takes in around 1 of every 10 refugees. Let's also note, Canada is essentially an immigation mosaic.

I'm not saying there's isn't any issues here need addressing. I'm not even German. If you'll note, I actually haven't addressed the German situation on numbers, but merit and toward immigation in general.

In all fairness Dionysus this isn't about immigration in general. This is about mass immigration on an unprecendented scale into two or three of Europe's richest and most generous states. Fact is hundreds of thousands are entering Greece every month and have made Germany and the UK their prime target. This is simply down to the wealth of benefits and social perks that are to be attained in these countries. Naturally, if I aspired to start anew in a European country I'd choose them too, but the point remains that the sheer numbers illegally attempting to enter these countries do not give two cents about claiming asylum the rightful way. Not accepting refugees, economic migrants et al is never something that can be levelled at Germany or the UK, that's laughable. Yet the huge influx and surge of people is not something that can ever be accomodated by these countries as it is just too many in one go.

 

[dionysus]

How? You agreed that the 'refugees' choose their country based on prospects, not just about being safe. That was exactly my point.
And when I ask you what Canada would do in such a situation, no answer...

I answered, please refer to previous pages. Canada currently takes one of every 10 refugees. Yes, I agreed 'some' refugees choose based on prospects along with escape - rightly so in my opinion. As to your theoretical post, I did answer - my answer it's a pontless, fruitless engagement , as it's currently a theoretical and non-issue and doesnt relate to the German situation and a strawman argument.

Anyway, enjoy your debate.

 

[dionysus]

In all fairness Dionysus this isn't about immigration in general. This is about mass immigration on an unprecendented scale into two or three of Europe's richest and most generous states. Fact is hundreds of thousands are entering Greece every month and have made Germany and the UK their prime target. This is simply down to the wealth of benefits and social perks that are to be attained in these countries. Naturally, if I aspired to start anew in a European country I'd choose them too, but the point remains that the sheer numbers illegally attempting to enter these countries do not give two cents about claiming asylum the rightful way. Not accepting refugees, economic migrants et al is never something that can be levelled at Germany or the UK, that's laughable. Yet the huge influx and surge of people is not something that can ever be accomodated by these countries as it is just too many in one go.

I agree and understand. That's why I stated I spoke in generalities. I'm not from the UK/Germany, and as such avoided making direct statements to the current situation, and agreed there are issues need addressing.

 

[MiltonW]

I answered, please refer to previous pages. Canada currently takes one of every 10 refugees. Yes, I agreed 'some' refugees choose based on prospects along with escape - rightly so in my opinion. As to your theoretical post, I did answer - my answer it's a pontless, fruitless engagement , as it's currently a theoretical and non-issue and doesnt relate to the German situation and a strawman argument.

Percentages are irrelevant. Estonia takes 1 out of 10, but they only have a 100 applicants.
'Some on prospects'? That's just lying. 99% of course, otherwise they wouldn't all go to the rich countries, that are thousands of miles away.
And a theoretical question is very relevant. Why can't you just answer?

 

[dunover]

First of all, please stop telling me that I am brainwashed-by-the-liberal-media. I am a well educated and
informed person. I hope you can forgive me for not clicking your provided "proves".

Really a smart move from our governments, this"first save nation"-thing , but reality does not work that way. Simple.

I only can talk about circumstances in Germany and we do not have any problems with muslims or refugees or muslim refugees. There are no valid informations about refugees commiting more rapes or crimes in general. This is just pure bullshit. Nothing more to say about it.

We have a saying in English:

"There are none so blind as those who don't want to see."

So unlike your shallow liberal stance which is solely wishful, I can provide facts and statistics from legitimate sources to prove my case. And you 'don't want to see'?

'head-in-sand' and 'ostrich' spring to mind.

 

[dunover]

This is really laughable or maybe very sad when you see the hidden hatred or blatant racism by some members here. If you are part of human race , you have an obligation of support and assistance when needed. Those refugees are mostly adults, educated and will have no problem of integration and adaptation in their new homelands in Europe. As of labeling the whole majority of law abiding refugees as criminals shows the degree of intolerance by so called educated europeans fellow members. This is not a forum to debate such issues but I will be glad to engage in any , with any racist and intolerant point of vues ANYTIME.
By the way, the neighboring countries like JORDAN, LEBANON, TOOK IN MILLIONS OF REFUGEES, EVEN THOUGH THE DONT HAVE THE MEANS. So that says a lot about their moral values.

This is when you know you've out-manouvered a liberal. They call you a racist.

Exactly - the nearest safe countries. That's how it should work, and less far to return when things are settled. Of course, we are told 'they all want to return' quite regularly in the media, aren't we?

It simply means the genuine refugees have gone 'local' and the ones with money have tried to buy a life in the EU via criminal networks.

 

[dunover]

The european countries laid the cornerstones for the situation we have.

European soldiers raped, plundered and burned the whole world. Colonialism was the biggest crime in the history of mankind. Started with South America (90% of the natives killed), North America, Africa (8-10 million dead natives between 1888 and 1908 only in the Congo). We don`t want to talk about the slaves who where caught like animals and selled like pieces of flesh.

Europe always want to be the ethic leader in the world. Now we have a chance to show the rest of the world that Europe learned from the mistakes in the past. That the human is in the center of our mind. Every refugee has his story and every human has the right to live in peace and safety.

What would you do if all your neighbours are dead? Of course you will stand brave in your city and wait for the end. Sure?

And then after you lost everything you are in a "safe" country and there are people in front of your house with Molotow cocktails and hate in their minds.

The politicians show all their weakness every day in this situation. I don`t want to change the mind of anyone here. I just want to say:

Sympathy is a human quality and people who escaped from terror and war need us now.

Maybe you have some old clothes or a toy for these people. Maybe you just have some warm words to make them feel safe.

Everyone can show that the european ideas (freedom, fraternalism, equality) are not empty phrases.

Long story short:

Welcome to Europe

PS: I live in Swizterland but I`m German

But they will be when Europeans cease to be the majority in Europe. That's the great paradox of the pro-multiculturalist/immigration stance which they are invariably blind to.

And it does NOT help the countries these people 'flee' from if they all leave. Romania became free because the people couldn't just leave and sacrificed themselves to overthrow the Ceaucescus, and now have a secure free nation. If they had all just run away over the border, what would have changed??

The point about colonialism (killing millions) is a bit disingenuous when you don't mention the tens-of-millions in Europe and China etc. who died under Communism, and the millions of Europeans who died fighting various wars in defence of freedom and didn't just seek refuge elsewhere.

 

[zaalouk29]

This is when you know you've out-manouvered a liberal. They call you a racist.

Exactly - the nearest safe countries. That's how it should work, and less far to return when things are settled. Of course, we are told 'they all want to return' quite regularly in the media, aren't we?

It simply means the genuine refugees have gone 'local' and the ones with money have tried to buy a life in the EU via criminal networks.

Out-manouvered a liberal? I really dont know how to answer this comment...if liberal means caring for human beings living tragedies in their lives while most of them were living in their homes and find themselves overnight as refugees with no prospects for future not knowing what tomorrow is made of...
You highlighted JORDAN AND LEBANON in my comment but you left out DONT HAVE THE MEANS
look dunover your first comment on the subject was startling to me and what was more startling is the fact 6 members thanked you for it..WOW It doesnt honor me to engage in any exchange with a guy carrying along those kind of views because I am pretty sure I will get tossed out of this forum if I express myself and tell you what I think of you

 

[MiltonW]

if liberal means caring for human beings living tragedies in their lives while most of them were living in their homes and find themselves overnight as refugees with no prospects for future not knowing what tomorrow is made of...

Dunover's views are realist. Yours are naive. You just feel these 'refugees' should be able to choose where they want to live. It doesn't work that way.

 

[weesie]

If and when you guys come up with a viable solution to the illegal immigration problem, please

tell the USA the answer.

I just don't understand the logic of immigrants.

I can understand wanting to live in a free society, away from war and oppression.

Given the opportunity to move to another country, via any means, why do they not make

what seems like any effort, what-so-ever, to assimilate.

Not a day goes by that I don't read some kind of news story here in the states where a person

being interviewed is doing so via a translator. AFTER being here for 20+ years?

It makes no sense. How can people live in a world where the don't/can't even speak the

language?

My grandparents came here from Poland/Germany in 1923 through Ellis Island.

They studied hard to learn English and did so, and became US citizens. They were very proud

to be Americans. My grandpa went to work in a foundry, bought a plot of land and built

a small house for starters and a larger one later. He worked hard all his life and built a

life as an American.

I'd like to think most of todays immigrants would do the same. Do they?

 

[hedgehok]

Out-manouvered a liberal? I really dont know how to answer this comment...if liberal means caring for human beings living tragedies in their lives while most of them were living in their homes and find themselves overnight as refugees with no prospects for future not knowing what tomorrow is made of...
You highlighted JORDAN AND LEBANON in my comment but you left out DONT HAVE THE MEANS
look dunover your first comment on the subject was startling to me and what was more startling is the fact 6 members thanked you for it..WOW It doesnt honor me to engage in any exchange with a guy carrying along those kind of views because I am pretty sure I will get tossed out of this forum if I express myself and tell you what I think of you

Many People can not debate about this topics without getting personal. It's a very borderline discussion here (if you can call it like that) and I can understand the meister when he wants to close the thread although it's highly interesting topic.

In regards to dunover and his views (and people liking his comments) I share your opinion. Aside his polical views (he compares the gorilla in "Raging Rhino" with Sol Campbell which i politically highly incorrect to say the least) I consider him amoung the most valuable members here. And that's what it is - a gamblers forum.

 

[dionysus]

If and when you guys come up with a viable solution to the illegal immigration problem, please

tell the USA the answer.

I just don't understand the logic of immigrants.

I can understand wanting to live in a free society, away from war and oppression.

Given the opportunity to move to another country, via any means, why do they not make

what seems like any effort, what-so-ever, to assimilate.

Not a day goes by that I don't read some kind of news story here in the states where a person

being interviewed is doing so via a translator. AFTER being here for 20+ years?

It makes no sense. How can people live in a world where the don't/can't even speak the

language?

My grandparents came here from Poland/Germany in 1923 through Ellis Island.

They studied hard to learn English and did so, and became US citizens. They were very proud

to be Americans. My grandpa went to work in a foundry, bought a plot of land and built

a small house for starters and a larger one later. He worked hard all his life and built a

life as an American.

I'd like to think most of todays immigrants would do the same. Do they?

I can't speak for every immigrant, but yes, many do acclimate and assimilate just fine, along with bringing an element of their own culture (which Canada is built upon).
Plenty of immigrants also work hard and raise families and start businesses (just as conversely there are native residents who sit on their asses, complain and contribute nothing).
As to English speaking, it's a tremendously difficult language to learn and yes, many do become proficient. There is however, a very real mental breakdown after certain ages where it's terribly difficult to learn and use a new language (that isnt to say it applies to all, just that it is very real..'fossilization' is one aspect)

 

[dunover]

Many People can not debate about this topics without getting personal. It's a very borderline discussion here (if you can call it like that) and I can understand the meister when he wants to close the thread although it's highly interesting topic.

In regards to dunover and his views (and people liking his comments) I share your opinion. Aside his polical views (he compares the gorilla in "Raging Rhino" with Sol Campbell which i politically highly incorrect to say the least) I consider him amoung the most valuable members here. And that's what it is - a gamblers forum.

The Raging Rhino example is actually not a Dunover original, I borrowed that from another person... (A Spurs fan needless to say!)

Anyway, as equally as the person you quoted Hedgehok, I feel like screaming at some posters here who cannot divorce emotion (often encouraged by the media) from reality as regards this matter. I won't throw insults because it simply shows one has lost their rationale, their reason and thus the debate. Free speech means listening and responding, not abusing and shouting people down just because you disagree.

Merkel has simply taken the lid off of the jam jar that is Germany, and as result thousands more are going to DIE by drowning in the sea when the criminal scum traffickers eagerly inform every Libyan/Eritrean/Nigerian/Syrian/Somali etc. with a few thousand dollars that "Everything will be fine, Germany will take you, very rich country, you'll start off in Italy or Greece but they are broke so will stamp your papers so you can go to France or Germany...!"

Please people, get real! This tragic issue will not and cannot be solved in Europe. Help should be targeted at the source and the criminals tackled.

 

[syntynyt]

have not read the thread beside the first post to avoid reading possible 'tolerant' opinions but this KALERGI plan is an irreversible genocide of the europeans.
Europe is under siege and modern man is incapable to do what the ancestors did to such permanent threats, but even more is positive on the subject.
to touch the point we live today, let's remember why Syria is in civil war, how the rebels trained by Americans to fight against Bashar al Assad took the form of noadays ISIS under ex-Mossad agent lead, which is why Syria is still in war (against the infidels), who finance those massive groups travel ILLEGALLY throughout Europe and why nobody talk about helping them in their own countries.
watch this vid with attention and see the plan expanding at european scale as we speak.

 

[hedgehok]

The Raging Rhino example is actually not a Dunover original, I borrowed that from another person... (A Spurs fan needless to say!)

Anyway, as equally as the person you quoted Hedgehok, I feel like screaming at some posters here who cannot divorce emotion (often encouraged by the media) from reality as regards this matter. I won't throw insults because it simply shows one has lost their rationale, their reason and thus the debate. Free speech means listening and responding, not abusing and shouting people down just because you disagree.

Merkel has simply taken the lid off of the jam jar that is Germany, and as result thousands more are going to DIE by drowning in the sea when the criminal scum traffickers eagerly inform every Libyan/Eritrean/Nigerian/Syrian/Somali etc. with a few thousand dollars that "Everything will be fine, Germany will take you, very rich country, you'll start off in Italy or Greece but they are broke so will stamp your papers so you can go to France or Germany...!"

Please people, get real! This tragic issue will not and cannot be solved in Europe. Help should be targeted at the source and the criminals tackled.

I'm not all agreeing but thanks for being considerate and objective.

 

[weesie]

As to English speaking, it's a tremendously difficult language to learn and yes, many do become proficient. There is however, a very real mental breakdown after certain ages where it's terribly difficult to learn and use a new language (that isnt to say it applies to all, just that it is very real..'fossilization' is one aspect)

I wish my nieces husband would learn English. He has been here for about 30 yrs and still does not. I honestly think he makes no effort what-so-ever.

And, ironically, my niece is a teacher!

They have 2 small children too.

I just don't get it........... that's all

 

[dionysus]

I wish my nieces husband would learn English. He has been here for about 30 yrs and still does not. I honestly think he makes no effort what-so-ever.

And, ironically, my niece is a teacher!

They have 2 small children too.

I just don't get it........... that's all

Probably the same reason native residents with access to free schooling and libraries can't be arsed either - laziness isn't ethnic-centric; it's person-specific not culture related.

 

[Mouche12]

Such a grim topic and I don't agree with all the negative sentiments expressed here.

There are, however, positive currents amidst the negative tendencies among people; one I spotted in a Danish newspaper on the support given by hundreds of Danish people to a vandalysed asylum centre:

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.

Crime, as lazyness, is indeed not ethnic-related. Let's not get overwhelmed by negative emotions and judge people on their ethnic background...