77Jackpot - Lies and threats.

[ThePOGG]

In the last few months there's been a lot going on regarding Tobwin who've previously not only claimed a license they didn't have, but faked a Curacao license page on a very similar domain.

For those not aware you can catch up on some of this stuff on the following threads;

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/more-netent-stolen-software-rip-offs.65186/?t=65186
https://www.casinomeister.com/casino-reviews/tobwin/

Since that point connections have come out between Tobwin, 77Jackpot and 1Bet2Bet.

In this time behind the scenes I've been contacted by both 77Jackpots and 1Bet2Bet and I wanted to share details of those communications as I feel they make for very interesting reading. Firstly an affiliate manager from 77Jackpot;

Hi,

just saw your review about our site

can i ask how you decide the our licence is fake ?????????????????????
and we related to a casino tobwin

pleas remove any info about our site from the pogg site for good and bad

and

Dear pogg

we are operating under Montenegro Gaming licens hxxp://e-gambling.me/
i suggest you to check next time you making a review office[@]e-gambling.me

REMOVE US FROM YOUR SITE ASAP

My response to this;

You're not related to Tobwin?







It's funny that YOU are listed as the affiliate manager at both sites and that the phone number for both casinos is the same.

As to the Tobwin license - that was confirmed by Curacao - you guys even went as far as knocking up a fake license page on a fake domain. I couldn't care less about your Montenegro license - I know the majority of casinos in operation today and you are the ONLY one claiming this license. That doesn't bode well for its authenticity at all. And given that we clearly state that it was Tobwin - your sister casino - that faked a license, everything stated is accurate.

All 77Jackpot information will remain as it currently is and further communication from you will not receive any response.

The response

look we are a new casino and we hed a business with tobwin guys and we fuck by them
we are not them and we try to work good as possible .
pleas try to understand us and check that we do have Montenegro license
this is not nice what you doing us

So here we have Jim from 77Jackpot directly stating that they are not Tobwin. Those emails came through early December.

Forward on to January and last Saturday I had David from 1Bet2Bet contact me.

Dear,Team

We see our review on you site :

Review last updated – December 2014

1Bet2Bet casino are included on our Blacklist due to shared ownership with casinos that have fraudulently claiming a gambling license they did not have and that have deployed stolen slots games.


Way you write this on our site?

If you have a personal problem or at all feel free to contact me by e-mail or skype: [REMOVED]?

* About The license We change our license to E-gaming Montenegro .

we don't work OR part FROM CyberData group.

Hi David,

I've already had this discussion with Jim [REMOVED] at 77Jackpot. We've already established the link between 77Jackpot and Tobwin who were caught running on a fraudulent license. 77Jackpot's Whois came up with your site including email address for 1bet2bet. I have screen shot of all of this.

You've conclusively been linked to fraudsters and will remain on our Blacklist.

Dear,ThePOGG

all site

1. tobwin
2. 77jackpot
3.1bet2bet

its our site, its not fraud, I'm in the casino business for 20 years i don't now how match time you om this business .

if you have any customer don't get any money from all this site or have any problem gust send it to me

before you write on any site you need to check .

* we change the license

* 77JACKPOT - LICENSE hxxp://e-gambling.me/ ACTIVE new site 2014
* 1BET2BET - LICENSE cyberdata and change to hxxp://e-gambling.me/ NEXT MONTH GOING TO BE ACTIVE from 2001
* TOBWIN - LICENSE hxxp://e-gambling.me/ NEXT MONTH GOING TO BE ACTIVE from 2011


Feel free to talk to me if there is any problem in the future this is my personal Skype: [REMOVED]

It's interesting that at the start of December Jim from 77Jackpot was bemoaning how they'd been "fucked" by Tobwin, yet now I have David at 1Bet2Bet telling me they're all owned by the same people......

Good to see you admit the link. Jim denied it. Whether you have a valid license now is irrelevant. Tobwin DID fraudulently claim a Curacao license. This was confirmed for me by Curacao when I contacted them regarding a player complaint. They weren't overly happy with your fake license page btw.

As to fact checking, I don't tend to check with people engaged in criminal activities about what they're doing. They tend not to be honest

Don't email me again.

Duncan

Dear,Mr Duncan [MY SURNAME!!!]

Thx for you time .

If there is a problem in the future I would like to just talk to me before you write

I believe that everything will be fine.

have a good time .

What's interesting in the above email is that while most people in the industry know my first name is Duncan I go to some lengths to keep my surname out of circulation. I've never worked with this group. How did they get my surname? That's a rhetorical question, I know exactly how they got my surname. Someone who knows it has shared my details with David without my permission (i.e. illegally). What I find more concerning is the way this information was used. At no point earlier in the conversation was this dropped in and I can see no practical reason to bring my surname up now. Reading between the lines the only message I can take from the above is "we know who you are" and that I consider to be very threatening.

I responded to this informing David that I'll be filing a police report due to his threatening behaviour and that no further correspondence will be entered into. All in all I've got to be frank and say this is some of the most unscrupulous behaviour I've seen in this industry.

 

[Casinomeister]

...look we are a new casino and we hed a business with tobwin guys and we fuck by them...

Pretty much sums up their professionalism in one sentence. You are absolutely correct in contacting your local police department. In fact, if they have a cyber-crime unit (which I'm sure they do), report it to them as well. What nitwits!

You have every right to critique any business on the Internet. If they don't like what you have to say, tough titty for them. They can formulate an answer with a well thought-out rebuttal. But it looks as though these guys lack debating skills.

 

[jetset]

Occasionally really bad operators (as opposed to those who are simply unscrupulous and inefficient) crop up and this is a typical example; barely able to communicate with each other, let alone industry media who quite justifiably challenge them.

They invariably resort immediately to denials, criticism of the messenger and implied threats, and always want to talk off the record to fix questionable activity and keep their shortcomings off the internet. We've seen it before, and the pattern here is much the same.

IMO The Pogg did the right thing here in exposing them and then refusing to be persuaded or bullied into removing the relevant publicity.

 

[quber]

They have a license link at the bottom now using the Curacao badge that links to igaminglicences.com that just returns a 'server not found' error.

That is in Israel

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[vinylweatherman]

See if they knowingly accept UK players, and if they do, report them to HMRC and the Gambling Commission. I get the impression this bunch of rogues have a base in London, or at least somewhere in the UK.

They can always go to court and sue for libel if they are so concerned about these "lies", but of course there is a danger they would lose, and have the allegations branded as truthful by a UK court.

It's the first I have heard of a Montenegro gaming licence, and does that link suggest that an Israeli company now has permission to dish out "government gaming licences"?

 

[ThePOGG]

IMO The Pogg did the right thing here in exposing them and then refusing to be persuaded or bullied into removing the relevant publicity.

Thanks Jetset - I agree that this was the "right" thing to do but it remains to be seen whether it was the "wise" thing to do. I really don't like people trying to intimidate me and I tend to buck against people that try to force my hand. In this situation what I've interpreted as an implied threat could be just hot air or it could be more real. Putting aside physical reprisal as I feel that's a little over dramatic the thought of cyber reprisals is a significant threat to me. In terms of the affiliate market I'm still a small boat on a big ocean and I wouldn't want to have to rebuild what I've worked so hard for. Never-the-less, I thought long and hard about this and would have felt I wasn't being true to what I'm trying to do by letting this one slide without letting people know how these guys are behaving.

 

[dunover]

If people don't stand up to bullies, anarchy prevails. If they did things properly, they'd never have to worry about being blacklisted. I doubt you'll get a DOS attack but the simple answer is make sure these facts are posted in many other places too.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks Jetset - I agree that this was the "right" thing to do but it remains to be seen whether it was the "wise" thing to do. I really don't like people trying to intimidate me and I tend to buck against people that try to force my hand. In this situation what I've interpreted as an implied threat could be just hot air or it could be more real. Putting aside physical reprisal as I feel that's a little over dramatic the thought of cyber reprisals is a significant threat to me. In terms of the affiliate market I'm still a small boat on a big ocean and I wouldn't want to have to rebuild what I've worked so hard for. Never-the-less, I thought long and hard about this and would have felt I wasn't being true to what I'm trying to do by letting this one slide without letting people know how these guys are behaving.

If it happens, they are in the frame because of the threats they made, and if it turns out they do have people in the UK, send the cops round if any kind of cyber reprisals show up. Any kind of DDOS attack or other types of attack on a website or computer system are illegal, and a criminal investigation would result.

If they can find where you live, you can find where some of their staff live, tools like 192.com, and if you are prepared to turn up in person you can look through the FULL electoral roll of where they appear to live for confirmation of address (so the police know which door to knock down at dawn). You could even complain to the ICO about the misuse of your personal data, given that they have been made party to data that you don't give out.

 

[jetset]

Thanks Jetset - I agree that this was the "right" thing to do but it remains to be seen whether it was the "wise" thing to do. I really don't like people trying to intimidate me and I tend to buck against people that try to force my hand. In this situation what I've interpreted as an implied threat could be just hot air or it could be more real. Putting aside physical reprisal as I feel that's a little over dramatic the thought of cyber reprisals is a significant threat to me. In terms of the affiliate market I'm still a small boat on a big ocean and I wouldn't want to have to rebuild what I've worked so hard for. Never-the-less, I thought long and hard about this and would have felt I wasn't being true to what I'm trying to do by letting this one slide without letting people know how these guys are behaving.

Previous incidents and experience tell me it is unlikely that this sort of probably small-time rogue operator has the capability or will to follow through on any threats that are made - these guys are usually all bluster and little if any action, although they might try a fake legal letter or bad-mouthing you. But I take your point and understand your concern.

Several years ago one notorious rogue called my home (scared my wife a bit) to warn me to be careful whenever I left the house because someone "might be waiting for you". I told this clown that I would be going out shortly, and walked up and down outside for half-an-hour. Needless to say, and as expected, nothing happened either then or since.

Big hat no cattle is the usual characteristic.

I'll bet that Bryan has had a few experiences with folks like this as well.

 

[LHofsdal]

Thank you

I am pretty much a nobody in the gambling world..but this is what I have to say...

I have been a member of this site for some time now and other sites where I have read some of The POGGS posts. Mainly from here, but from other sites, I have gained a lot of respect for this man. I do believe this man to be honest and fair just like Bryan, Max, Simmo and Webcaz.

I am glad to be part of this site, and to read the threads. Most posts from The POGGS are full of useful information,(well to me anyway). No matter if it is good or bad about a casino, I always take the information as truthful. What I find the most alarming with these men, are the way they write their e-mails.

Those e-mails are so unprofessional, and rude as they can get. And this one man has been in the industry for 20 years? You mean to tell me he has made it 20 years and still doesn't know how to act professionally? It just goes to show everyone how these individuals will scheme to get ahead at other peoples expense. When individuals will be fake and lie, god only knows what else they would do.

I thank you for bringing this out in the open, and sharing the e-mails. I personally want to thank you and everyone at Casinomeister for being honest and standing up to people like this. Without all of you, I would hate to think of what state the online casino industry would be in.

Thank you.
Lori

 

[ThePOGG]

Thanks all - I appreciate the support.

I accepted a long time ago that these sorts of pressures were part of the role I've chosen, so while I don't feel that I should be exposed to threatening behaviour I can't make any claims that I didn't know and understand the risks when I first started posting about Tobwin last year. Like yourself Jetset, my wife is far more concerned about this than I am.

I do think that in all likelihood this was an empty threat and that ultimately nothing is likely to happen. However I also piss off a large number of people within the industry so in many respects it's just a matter of time.

Regarding whether or not this group is run from a base in the UK - this is fairly flimsy to base anything on, but I'm not convinced they are. The phone number provided is UK but that's easy to set up forwarding on and would be a smart move for anyone looking to appear legitimate. Other than that every contact I've had with this group has read like a non-native English speaker, in fact I'd go as far as to suggest that they staff members I've spoken to writes as if they're using a translation program to convert to English or have only a basic grasp of the language.

I'd also say that I suspect that this is a small operation and I'm pretty sure I've been talking to a single person (regardless of names) and that they're at the top end of the hierarchy in this group. Initially with the Tobwin complaint I was speaking to a Jon D who represented themselves as the Casino Manager. I'm very confident that Jon D was just Jim C under another name. Likewise I think David is likely the same person as well, though I'm less sure of that assertion. In short I think they may have some presence in the UK, but the people running the operation are likely elsewhere.

 

[curremon]

Funny things happen when you click image of their license in tobwin site. :O

ERRORCODE: DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN

 

[spintee]

I did have a good read yesterday, Without a dout its probably a pair of half wit brothers tucked up in a room somewhere,

I would not lose any sleep over it, There threats are probably as much use as there licence,

 

[funnymunny]

Thanks to ThePOGG for highlighting this.

See if they knowingly accept UK players...

Confirmed. Just managed to register an account at Casino77 and TOBWIN. (Haven't tried depositing, so perhaps I could be blocked at that stage(?). Too late in terms of UK Regulation, so I think the point is already proved).

It's the first I have heard of a Montenegro gaming licence

The Regulators from Montenegro have been in attendance @ European iGaming conferences for a couple of years & they're also confirmed as being on the exhibitor list for this years ICE conference. (Click

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

).

Interestingly(?), none of the aforementioned sites are listed as being license holders on the Montenegrin site. Old / Expired Link.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks to ThePOGG for highlighting this.



Confirmed. Just managed to register an account at Casino77 and TOBWIN. (Haven't tried depositing, so perhaps I could be blocked at that stage(?). Too late in terms of UK Regulation, so I think the point is already proved).




The Regulators from Montenegro have been in attendance @ European iGaming conferences for a couple of years & they're also confirmed as being on the exhibitor list for this years ICE conference. (Click

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

).

Interestingly(?), none of the aforementioned sites are listed as being license holders on the Montenegrin site. Old / Expired Link.

Well, it seems we have a confirmation that there is such a thing as a Montenegro gaming licence, but also the suggestion that this too might be fake for this pair. What matters for players is how well a legitimate Montenegro gaming licence will protect them from rogue operations (can't be any worse than the LGA can it )


Being able to register does not completely prove they accept bets from UK players, it just shows that their website does not block them based on IP location and selected registration details. An offence only takes place when a UK player places a bet, and the site accepts it. Getting their support to confirm that they accept players from the UK would be a more convincing piece of evidence, although without depositing (and giving your personal and financial details) to such a dodgy outfit, it's going to be hard to prove.

The Gambling Commission however does have a section on their site suggesting that they accept reports from the public of operators flouting the UK licensing laws. This is probably "intelligence gathering", and if the problem is bad enough, the government might act. However, game providers also have to ensure that they don't supply games to any operator flouting the UK laws, so they are more likely to go after these outfits, although if they find their games are involved, they are probably ripped off copies anyway.

 

[funnymunny]

...
It's interesting that at the start of December Jim from 77Jackpot was bemoaning how they'd been "fucked" by Tobwin, yet now I have David at 1Bet2Bet telling me they're all owned by the same people......

After signing-up to 77Jackpot yesterday, I have this morning received a promotional mail from them & an extract from it is below...



Regulatory items aside (i.e. encouraging a UK player to deposit and wager with them), it looks like an offer some could be tempted by. However, when clicking the links, you are redirected to Outdated URL (Invalid) (This is a dead-page, but as can be seen from the URL, this is on the TOBWIN domain).


From checking the header information from the mail, the following can also be seen...

Authentication-Results: *snip* spf=pass (sender IP is 50.31.156.120) smtp.mailfrom=pm_bounces@pm.mtasv.net; dkim=pass header.d=77jackpot.com; x-hmca=pass header.id=info@77jackpot.com
X-SID-PRA: info@77jackpot.com
X-AUTH-Result: PASS
X-SID-Result: PASS
...
X-IADB-IP: 50.31.156.120
X-IADB-IP-REVERSE: 120.156.31.50
From: "77 Jackpot" <info@77jackpot.com>
Reply-To: info@77jackpot.com
...
X-Mailer: Tobwin_Sending_System
X-Complaints-To: info@tobwin.com
List-Unsubscribe: <http://oempro.tobwin.com/u.php?p=rs/rs/4rv/rt/t9/rs>

So despite Jim's words regarding the relationship between companies, his sites emails are also going through / hosted on a TOBWIN system?!


Although the telephone number listed on the email is given as UK, the senders IP address traces to Chicago in the US, which could add credence to previous post that they are giving a UK number to add credability, but using a forwarding service to route this elsewhere. (I have tried calling their phone number (with my own withheld) a couple of times, but it goes to a 'this person is not available' standard / anonymous voicemail. (Not too surprising as it's only just after 5am in Chicago )).


Thanks again to ThePOGG for highlighting this, and to Casinomeister for this site & working with others to help bring issues such as this to a wider audience. I REALLY hope players steer clear of these guys!

 

[jasonuk]

Although the telephone number listed on the email is given as UK

Search for "skype 0203 287" and there are dozens of results scattered across that 10k number block (as low as 04**, some 4*** and 5***, as high as 97**) that are listed as Skype-incoming, which suggests the entire block may be.

It's not certain, but it's likely that is also a Skype number. The FAQ at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

also indicates that the UK doesn't mandate proof of residence before allocating a UK Skype number.

Hope that helps

 

[funnymunny]

Firstly an affiliate manager from 77Jackpot;

So in your correspondence with him, he's the Affiliate Manager, my 'Welcome' email from them (post #16 above) he's listed as Senior Account Manager & in today's email, he's now Managing Director...




A brilliant employee who's worked their way up the corporate ladder at an incredible rate or somebody running the whole operation from their bedroom?!

 

[ThePOGG]

A brilliant employee who's worked their way up the corporate ladder at an incredible rate or somebody running the whole operation from their bedroom?!

Yeah, as I spotted that in the first of your emails. Jim/Jon/David - they're probably all the same person and seem to fill a lot of rolls....

 

[Matt44UK]

Well, this thread gave me a giggle ;-) Faking a Curacao licence?! Desperation doesn't come much rawer than that!

Jesus, if you're going to fake a licence, at least make it a *respectable* one!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well, this thread gave me a giggle ;-) Faking a Curacao licence?! Desperation doesn't come much rawer than that!

Jesus, if you're going to fake a licence, at least make it a *respectable* one!

It's probably chosen because Curacao probably won't do a thing about it unless it becomes a major PR issue, whereas a respectable jurisdiction will go after them straight away, and may even have staff actively monitoring for such fakery.

 

[dunover]

Yeah, as I spotted that in the first of your emails. Jim/Jon/David - they're probably all the same person and seem to fill a lot of rolls....

Yeah, you're right - his day job is probably in Subway.........

In the evening a fraudster with triple-schizophrenia.

 

[maxd]

Big hat no cattle ....

Lolz! That big ol' hat must flop around a lot giving what obvious pin-heads these guys are.

 

[Jimcarling]

Hello to all good souls

Hi i am jim carling from 77jackpot casino
pleas if anyone have some issue with our casino/games/T&C or what ever i welcome you all to talk with me about it. jim[at]--77jackpot.com

i just read the above and i think its funny that except of you all i didn't see any player complain, just you guys
pleas stop for a moment and think about the damage you making to us say this things and dont want to check the facts first.

jim

 

[spintee]

Damage? I do not really no the inside of how things work but from what I have read and looked in to than the only damage has been by yourselfs with the blatant lies which we can all see,

Hi i am jim carling from 77jackpot casino
pleas if anyone have some issue with our casino/games/T&C or what ever i welcome you all to talk with me about it. jim[at]--77jackpot.com

i just read the above and i think its funny that except of you all i didn't see any player complain, just you guys
pleas stop for a moment and think about the damage you making to us say this things and dont want to check the facts first.

jim