3Dice Roulette.

[skiny]

19 different numbers in a row.

No repeats.

Try that.

 

[3Dice]

Hi Skiny,

I thought I'd run some math that might help you put things in perspective.

2, 5, 8, 14, 20, 26, 29 and 32 all came up before 11.

The odds for that are 80.3%

19 different numbers in a row.

No repeats.

Try that.

There is a sequence of 19 different numbers once every 620 spins on average.

Either your expectations or our roulette are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.



Kind regards,

Enzo.

 

[SlotMonster]

There is a sequence of 19 different numbers once every 620 spins on average.

Enzo, can you please specify how you've got that number?

Thanks!

 

[3Dice]

Enzo, can you please specify how you've got that number?

Thanks!

Sure

The odds that a sequence of 19 consecutively spinned roulette outcomes don't contain any doubles is

36/37 * 35/37 * 34/37 * ... * (36-18)/37 = 0.0016735314438190085

If you play 620 spins you have (620-19) sequences of 19 numbers (1 to 19, 2 to 20, 3 to 21, 4 to 22, ..)

(620-19)*0.0016735314438190085 = 1.005792397735224 = 100.5 %

Cheers,

Enzo

 

[Nate]

Enzo,

How does your roulette work - Is it like a Slot Machine that conforms to a RTP or is it as Random as a live Table?

Nate

 

[3Dice]

Enzo,

How does your roulette work - Is it like a Slot Machine that conforms to a RTP or is it as Random as a live Table?

Nate

Exactly like a live table. Its payout can be anywhere over or under the theoretical rtp at any point in time - its only the natural
odds that make that on the long run it will average out to exactly the same number and in exactly the same way a live table does.

Slot machines don't 'conform' to the RTP either - they end up at their theoretical RTP based on the same principle of natural
odds. Say you have an uber simple slot with one reel and 100 spots - 99 pay nothing and one pays 95. The casino installs one
of these fresh from the box - the total coin in and coin out on that machine are zero. It gets put into action and a lucky player
walks up to it - there's nothing preventing him from hitting 5, 10 or 100 winning spins in sequence - ofcourse the odds for that
are small (1/100^5, 1/100^10 and 1/100^100), and the odds are bigger that there will be a couple of loser spins. If he hits
5 lucky spins from the start the RTP of that machine will be 950% - and the casino will have to cover those wins even tho
the machine didn't make them anything yet (which is simply part of the risk of running the business).

In random games, the theoretical RTP exists as a result of the game rules. For example in roulette it comes from the fact
that there are 37 numbers, but the payout is only 36 for a single number hit. On slots the theoretical rtp exists because
of how the reels and the paytable are setup. (as in our example, if we change the paytable, the 95 payout for the
winning spot, the theoretical RTP would change accordingly).

afaik the only games that 'conform' to a preset RTP are the so called AWP games. The only way a game can ever 'conform'
(in the meaning of providing a guarantee to the operator that a certain RTP will not be exceeded) is by postponing wins untill
more bets are made. (which is afaik exactly what the AWP games do).

3Dice doesn't have any AWP games.

Cheers,

Enzo.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Randomness control is the feature which BetVoyager has.

You can find more info here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

That's not 'randomness control' in the way it's being discussed here, that's just explaining how their RNG works and that it can be trusted to be random, and specifically that the number is determined before the bet is made, i.e. the table has no way of choosing a losing spin based on the numbers a player has chosen to bet on.

You can watch a video about it here -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

EDIT - Just to clarify, I think some people are thinking of 'randomness control' as meaning the number choice is controlled or 'picked' in some way based on what the player is doing (which is where skiny is coming from), BetVoyager are explaining there that their randomness is entirely random.

 

[skiny]

Hi Skiny,

I thought I'd run some math that might help you put things in perspective.



The odds for that are 80.3%



There is a sequence of 19 different numbers once every 620 spins on average.

Either your expectations or our roulette are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.



Kind regards,

Enzo.

What are my expectations?

I got 19 different numbers in a row. Anyone who plays roulette online or on a real table isn't going to see that many numbers in a row without at least one repeat very often. I program my own games that use random numbers. I've seen my own games do some pretty weird stuff sometimes but I know I didn't program them to cheat. I've said this before.... To you.

Every time you point out something out of the ordinary when it's in your favour everyone pats you on the back, if it's not in your favour they assume you're calling the casino a cheat. If I say I just rolled 45 dice so far and I've only seen one 5 at least one person, often more will come back with a statement like - it can happen, it doesn't mean the casino is cheating. Well, obviously it can happen. It just did. And pointing out the fact that it did doesn't mean anyone is cheating. If it meant that I'd be calling myself a cheater every time I point out one of my own games did something weird.

That's not 'randomness control' in the way it's being discussed here, that's just explaining how their RNG works and that it can be trusted to be random, and specifically that the number is determined before the bet is made, i.e. the table has no way of choosing a losing spin based on the numbers a player has chosen to bet on.

You can watch a video about it here -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

EDIT - Just to clarify, I think some people are thinking of 'randomness control' as meaning the number choice is controlled or 'picked' in some way based on what the player is doing (which is where skiny is coming from), BetVoyager are explaining there that their randomness is entirely random.

If I thought this game was missing my number on purpose would I play it every single "all games" tournament, knowing that it's probably my best bet to get a big score? I already said in this thread I play this game every single day. This game has a lot more bad runs than it has good runs but I think the odds pretty much dictate that unless you cover almost the entire board. Unless someone says "The casino is cheating" I don't automatically assume they're saying the casino is cheating. I don't make assumptions based on statements people never made (Which is where Chopley is coming from.)

My original question was do people play this game for real? Do they play it for real the way I showed with this box play? Do they do this and have to sit through long bad runs?

I don't play roulette for real money because this way I play which does get me some real good scores sometimes in tournaments would be way too costly for me to sit and wait for them.

And just because people don't like when I point at something that is random but is obviously out of the ordinary, which I always find interesting doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If I thought this game was missing my number on purpose would I play it every single "all games" tournament, knowing that it's probably my best bet to get a big score? I already said in this thread I play this game every single day. This game has a lot more bad runs than it has good runs but I think the odds pretty much dictate that unless you cover almost the entire board. Unless someone says "The casino is cheating" I don't automatically assume they're saying the casino is cheating. I don't make assumptions based on statements people never made (Which is where Chopley is coming from.)

My original question was do people play this game for real? Do they play it for real the way I showed with this box play? Do they do this and have to sit through long bad runs?

I don't play roulette for real money because this way I play which does get me some real good scores sometimes in tournaments would be way too costly for me to sit and wait for them.

And just because people don't like when I point at something that is random but is obviously out of the ordinary, which I always find interesting doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing it.

Well I honestly don't know what your point is skiny, are you trying to say that 3Dice Roulette plays 'suspiciously' out of the ordinary in tournament play and you want to know if it does the same in real play, or are you saying that it just does 'weird but acceptable' things within the bounds of expected variation in a random game?

If it's the former then you are in a roundabout way accusing the game of cheating, if it's the latter then there is no news, since we all know random numbers do weird things sometimes that we as humans can and do like to read patterns into.

Now don't get me wrong, I've been there myself with MG, but I stopped playing MG months ago and haven't been back because for me their software went beyond what I could accept as being fair and random. Even when an MG casino chucked a £75 free chip into my account to do with as I pleased - I didn't even log in to play with that.

Point there is, if you're not happy with a software, why carry on playing it and letting it make you unhappy? MG made me unhappy, I stopped playing it, now I enjoy my online gaming a lot more - and I left it at that.

And to get back to your original question, the way you're playing the game there seems like a 'high variance' way to play it, in the same way that just betting on single numbers will make it a far higher variance game than sticking to red or black. (Which you effectively acknowledge yourself with the statement 'I don't play roulette for real money because this way I play which does get me some real good scores sometimes in tournaments would be way too costly for me to sit and wait for them.')

Enzo is being entirely forthcoming with how his roulette game works, either you accept the numbers he's giving you, and you take as being truthful that the 3Dice roulette table works on a true and fair RNG - or you're basically trying to call shenanigans.

 

[Nifty29]

What are my expectations?

I got 19 different numbers in a row. Anyone who plays roulette online or on a real table isn't going to see that many numbers in a row without at least one repeat very often. I program my own games that use random numbers. I've seen my own games do some pretty weird stuff sometimes but I know I didn't program them to cheat. I've said this before.... To you.

Every time you point out something out of the ordinary when it's in your favour everyone pats you on the back, if it's not in your favour they assume you're calling the casino a cheat. If I say I just rolled 45 dice so far and I've only seen one 5 at least one person, often more will come back with a statement like - it can happen, it doesn't mean the casino is cheating. Well, obviously it can happen. It just did. And pointing out the fact that it did doesn't mean anyone is cheating. If it meant that I'd be calling myself a cheater every time I point out one of my own games did something weird.



If I thought this game was missing my number on purpose would I play it every single "all games" tournament, knowing that it's probably my best bet to get a big score? I already said in this thread I play this game every single day. This game has a lot more bad runs than it has good runs but I think the odds pretty much dictate that unless you cover almost the entire board. Unless someone says "The casino is cheating" I don't automatically assume they're saying the casino is cheating. I don't make assumptions based on statements people never made (Which is where Chopley is coming from.)

My original question was do people play this game for real? Do they play it for real the way I showed with this box play? Do they do this and have to sit through long bad runs?

I don't play roulette for real money because this way I play which does get me some real good scores sometimes in tournaments would be way too costly for me to sit and wait for them.

And just because people don't like when I point at something that is random but is obviously out of the ordinary, which I always find interesting doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing it.

I see where you're coming from skiny.

What I don't understand is why you present things that you find "interesting" in such a way that calls into question the fairness/randomness of the game (in this case 3Dice roulette), but doesn't explicitly state that you are actually doing so. I know what you're saying when you do this.....and you know I do because I do it at times myself when I don't want to outright call someone a whatever etc.

If you actual intent is to just point out "interesting" stuff in games, then why not just have a thread called "weird stuff that happens in games" or something? Instead of making a thread about a specific game at a specific casino, and quite obviously suggesting (I'n not the only one seeing this) that something is not right.

Enzo replied with the maths, which cannot lie. If you can dispute that with your own math to show that he is wrong and that his roulette is somehow operating "like a high variance slot", then have at it. Otherwise, why are you being so defensive regarding what Enzo stated?

I also note that you're asking real players if they have the same bad runs etc.....well, obviously they do. Otherwise, you would be suggesting that tourney/fun play is different to real play. Otherwise, I don't see the point of the question. If you don't think real play and fun play are the same, why not just say so? Or ask Enzo straight up? Or, even better, play for real with micro stakes and form your own opinion.

FTR, nobody is asking you to stop posting whatever you want. Only the mods can do that. By the same token, you must expect that others will dispute, challenge, support, agree or disagree etc etc with anything you post. If you just want to say whatever you like and delete the responses or opinions you don't like, then go and start a blog.

P.S.

+ what chopley said.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If you actual intent is to just point out "interesting" stuff in games, then why not just have a thread called "weird stuff that happens in games" or something?

This would be a far better idea, and in fact could actually make for a fun and interesting read, just a basic 'Something weird happened to me today' thread and we can all chip in.

I reckon that over time it would develop into an interesting repository as to the crazy things genuinely random numbers can do sometimes.

 

[skiny]

I see where you're coming from skiny.

What I don't understand is why you present things that you find "interesting" in such a way that calls into question the fairness/randomness of the game (in this case 3Dice roulette), but doesn't explicitly state that you are actually doing so. I know what you're saying when you do this.....and you know I do because I do it at times myself when I don't want to outright call someone a whatever etc.

If you actual intent is to just point out "interesting" stuff in games, then why not just have a thread called "weird stuff that happens in games" or something? Instead of making a thread about a specific game at a specific casino, and quite obviously suggesting (I'n not the only one seeing this) that something is not right.

Well, I think there's a bit of psychology behind those assumptions and it depends entirely on a person's perspective. My son used to sit right across the room from me on his own computer playing casino games. If he said to me "How come every time I get a wild there's a scatter after it? My first thought is not "He's saying the game is cheating." And if I said to him "You have wilds? My game doesn't have those." He doesn't think back, "Well, he's saying the game cheats." I realize it's not the same thing as posting here but if someone posted a description of their crappy game play my first thought is not that they're saying the casino cheats. Personally, I try not to read between the lines because quite often what you'll find is what your own brain put there.

Enzo replied with the maths, which cannot lie. If you can dispute that with your own math to show that he is wrong and that his roulette is somehow operating "like a high variance slot", then have at it. Otherwise, why are you being so defensive regarding what Enzo stated?

I've had this discussion with Enzo before. And made the same statements before. And even talked about the games I make myself before. When he talks about my expectations I just wonder what those expectations are since I haven't mentioned them once.

I also note that you're asking real players if they have the same bad runs etc.....well, obviously they do. Otherwise, you would be suggesting that tourney/fun play is different to real play. Otherwise, I don't see the point of the question. If you don't think real play and fun play are the same, why not just say so? Or ask Enzo straight up? Or, even better, play for real with micro stakes and form your own opinion.

The bad runs are going to be worse depending how you play this game. You can raise and lower the variance depending how and where you bet. It's entirely possible that people don't experience the same bad runs as I do. And like I said, if they play this game for real the same way I play it in tournament mode they would have to suffer through some pretty long losing streaks although they could hit right away. I think someone who plays roulette for real money would be in a better position to answer these questions. Maybe someone does have a story about hitting their number 3 or 4 times in a row or not hitting anything no matter where they bet for 200 spins of the wheel. It's easy for me to make fun of it when it's not real money but I'd probably start getting a little pissy if it was real money. I've said before "I know exactly where it's going to hit. Where my chips used to be." I'm not saying it's doing it on purpose. I'm just saying that from my last 50 spins, that's a pretty good bet.

FTR, nobody is asking you to stop posting whatever you want. Only the mods can do that. By the same token, you must expect that others will dispute, challenge, support, agree or disagree etc etc with anything you post. If you just want to say whatever you like and delete the responses or opinions you don't like, then go and start a blog.

I really don't mind when people disagree with me. People just have to be careful that they're disagreeing with me or disagreeing with their own assumptions. Besides, if I deleted all the responses where people disagreed with me I'd have some pretty lonely threads.

This would be a far better idea, and in fact could actually make for a fun and interesting read, just a basic 'Something weird happened to me today' thread and we can all chip in.

I reckon that over time it would develop into an interesting repository as to the crazy things genuinely random numbers can do sometimes.

I think I mentioned this before. I was writing a classic reel slot game, which I may eventually finish if I ever get all the files off my old burnt out hard drive. I was making the graphics and animation in a separate program and I had the code with 3 simple arrays of 36 symbols. The RNG just generated numbers between 0 and 35 so the reel strips set the odds. I had one "Jackpot" symbol on each strip so the odds of hitting it on each reel was 1 in 36. If my math is correct that's 1 in 46,656 of getting all three.

After the code was done I went back and set it up in a loop so it would just keep spinning while I was playing around with the graphics. I threw a few text boxes up just to keep track of the biggest hit, RTP and so on and just for fun I set it to stop if it hit the jackpot.

10 spins.... It spun 10 times and hit the jackpot. lol.

I thought I had screwed something up so I went back and looked it over. Changed nothing and then let it run again. I shut it off after somewhere around 125,000 spins, I think. Still no second jackpot. So I said to my son "This game is great as long as you're not the second person to play it."

 

[3Dice]

What are my expectations?

I got 19 different numbers in a row. Anyone who plays roulette online or on a real table isn't going to see that many numbers in a row without at least one repeat very often.

mmm... okay .. let me try to keep this simple.

yes they will. The math is above - anyone will see that often even.

I program my own games that use random numbers. I've seen my own games do some pretty weird stuff sometimes but I know I didn't program them to cheat. I've said this before.... To you.

Every time you point out something out of the ordinary when it's in your favour everyone pats you on the back, if it's not in your favour they assume you're calling the casino a cheat. If I say I just rolled 45 dice so far and I've only seen one 5 at least one person, often more will come back with a statement like - it can happen, it doesn't mean the casino is cheating. Well, obviously it can happen. It just did. And pointing out the fact that it did doesn't mean anyone is cheating. If it meant that I'd be calling myself a cheater every time I point out one of my own games did something weird.

If I thought this game was missing my number on purpose would I play it every single "all games" tournament, knowing that it's probably my best bet to get a big score? I already said in this thread I play this game every single day. This game has a lot more bad runs than it has good runs but I think the odds pretty much dictate that unless you cover almost the entire board. Unless someone says "The casino is cheating" I don't automatically assume they're saying the casino is cheating. I don't make assumptions based on statements people never made (Which is where Chopley is coming from.)

My original question was do people play this game for real? Do they play it for real the way I showed with this box play? Do they do this and have to sit through long bad runs?

I don't play roulette for real money because this way I play which does get me some real good scores sometimes in tournaments would be way too costly for me to sit and wait for them.

And just because people don't like when I point at something that is random but is obviously out of the ordinary, which I always find interesting doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing it.

ok - so you're trying to get a message across. you post what you think says 'A'.
_everyone_ who reads it however reads 'B'.

Clearly you need to rethink your communication strategies cause - quod erat demonstrandum - everyone reads your posts as under the belt punches and insinuations of unfairness at the address of 3Dice.

I'm happy to give you a couple of pointers tho -

- try to provide more context when you post. the more context around a statement - the less room there is for different interpretations.

- Don't be shy to actually say what you mean - you can still do the witty and funny version - just start out with the literal one - again to avoid misinterpretation.

- Dare to ask yourself - lets not call it what you did wrong - but rather what you could've done different to make sure people understand what you mean. It sometimes looks like you just get angry and defensive without ever asking that question.

and Skiny, please take this post serious. I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I'm deadly serious here - it can't be fun for you to have what you say be interpreted differently from what you mean all the time. This is exactly what needs to change for your chat-ban at 3Dice to be lifted to. I'm totally prepared to believe that you have no bad intentions - but please please believe me when I tell you that that is NOT what it sounds like when people read what you write. not at all.

And please don't walk in the trap you've been in before. This is not something personal - you are an intelligent person - you can figure this out. Nifty, Chopley, my staff and me - we have nothing against you - its not you - its just the way you say the things you say. And it wouldn't even need a lot of changes to go from the current interpretation to one where everyone thinks you're funny and witty.

Good luck.

Enzo

 

[skiny]

mmm... okay .. let me try to keep this simple.

yes they will. The math is above - anyone will see that often even.

I play this game every day. I don't see it often. I see repeating numbers almost every single time I play. It's rare I see even one board of 15 numbers without at least one repeat. most of the time there are several.


ok - so you're trying to get a message across. you post what you think says 'A'.
_everyone_ who reads it however reads 'B'.

Clearly you need to rethink your communication strategies cause - quod erat demonstrandum - everyone reads your posts as under the belt punches and insinuations of unfairness at the address of 3Dice.

I wouldn't be so quick to say how everyone reads my posts. If I point out something out of the ordinary a very small handful of people will assume I'm calling the casino (or any casino) a cheat. I've talked to gamblers in your chat room, MSN, Yahoo, several different forums, I can't count the amount of times a player has said "I don't think this game has 3 scatters." - "I never win anything with this game." - "People get 6 triples, I can't get one." The list is endless and I don't assume they're calling the casino a cheat and when I say these things they don't assume I'm calling the casino a cheat... Except for that small handful.

I'm happy to give you a couple of pointers tho -

- try to provide more context when you post. the more context around a statement - the less room there is for different interpretations.

- Don't be shy to actually say what you mean - you can still do the witty and funny version - just start out with the literal one - again to avoid misinterpretation.

- Dare to ask yourself - lets not call it what you did wrong - but rather what you could've done different to make sure people understand what you mean. It sometimes looks like you just get angry and defensive without ever asking that question.

and Skiny, please take this post serious. I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I'm deadly serious here - it can't be fun for you to have what you say be interpreted differently from what you mean all the time. This is exactly what needs to change for your chat-ban at 3Dice to be lifted to. I'm totally prepared to believe that you have no bad intentions - but please please believe me when I tell you that that is NOT what it sounds like when people read what you write. not at all.

In almost 20 years of communicating online very few people complain about the way I post. Most people have a sense of humour. The vast majority of people who read what I type either enjoy it or don't care either way.

And please don't walk in the trap you've been in before. This is not something personal - you are an intelligent person - you can figure this out. Nifty, Chopley, my staff and me - we have nothing against you - its not you - its just the way you say the things you say. And it wouldn't even need a lot of changes to go from the current interpretation to one where everyone thinks you're funny and witty.

Good luck.

Enzo

I know nothing about Chopley and I've never once thought that Nifty had anything against me. Nifty and I have agreed and disagreed on more subjects than I can even remember and as far as I know we're both fine with it.

Please don't say your staff has nothing against me. I think we both know better.

 

[Borgie]

Well I honestly don't know what your point is skiny, are you trying to say that 3Dice Roulette plays 'suspiciously' out of the ordinary in tournament play and you want to know if it does the same in real play, or are you saying that it just does 'weird but acceptable' things within the bounds of expected variation in a random game?

I see where you're coming from skiny.

What I don't understand is why you present things that you find "interesting" in such a way that calls into question the fairness/randomness of the game (in this case 3Dice roulette), but doesn't explicitly state that you are actually doing so. I know what you're saying when you do this.....and you know I do because I do it at times myself when I don't want to outright call someone a whatever etc.

ok - so you're trying to get a message across. you post what you think says 'A'.
_everyone_ who reads it however reads 'B'.


Enzo

Skiny, these three comments show that the point you were trying to make was not clear. None of these individuals have a problem with you but all were trying to understand what the real message/meaning/action you want taking etc etc you are trying to convey is. I don't know for sure either. Sorry. Not trying to be awkward just saying.

 

[Tirilej]

Skiny, these three comments show that the point you were trying to make was not clear. None of these individuals have a problem with you but all were trying to understand what the real message/meaning/action you want taking etc etc you are trying to convey is. I don't know for sure either. Sorry. Not trying to be awkward just saying.

This really is interesting
I had no problem at all knowing why he started this thread or what he wanted to say. He wanted answer to the questions he had in his first two posts. Instead everyone questioned the reasons for why he asked.
How easy it is to be misunderstood, but I agree, it's always better to be really clear from the beginning so there would be no need for any misunderstanding.

 

[cpdnd31]

All I know is after the second page my head hurts....

 

[Brooklyn]

I for one enjoy this thread, cuz I don't know a damn thing about roulette.

Usually I just close my eyes, place chips randomly and hope for the best.

 

[dionysus]

For turney play brook, i suggest circling 2 or along the 0 line and crossing your fingers

 

[Brooklyn]

TY m'love. I will try that today, usually I bet on 17 and around it.

How about I just circle the chair counter-clockwise, spin around a few times and just click?

 

[dionysus]

Lol, i dont suggest 2 because its lucky, but because it pays the most in the game

 

[rockycatt]

TY m'love. I will try that today, usually I bet on 17 and around it.

How about I just circle the chair counter-clockwise, spin around a few times and just click?

hey

 

[skiny]

Lol, i dont suggest 2 because its lucky, but because it pays the most in the game

It pays more but you're betting on less numbers. If you circle 2 you're playing 7 numbers. Circle 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29 or 32 and you're playing 9 numbers.

I played the last 3 minutes of a touranment last night and won it by circling 2.

I circled the 2 and hit it twice in two minutes and won the tournament.

Usually the casino is cheating. That time I was.

 

[skiny]

I still play this game once a day.

I finally hit more than the corner of my 25% of the board after a week or so.

Then I didn't hit any of the 25% of the board for the next 25 spins. Zero comes pretty quick sometimes no matter what your balance is.

 

[Nifty29]

I still play this game once a day.

I finally hit more than the corner of my 25% of the board after a week or so.

Then I didn't hit any of the 25% of the board for the next 25 spins. Zero comes pretty quick sometimes no matter what your balance is.

Which means......?

I know what you're saying. We all do.

I don't understand why you just don't stop dancing around it and have the courage of your convictions and say it.